Blind characters?

[Pigkappa]

How do you handle characters who are blind or can't see the opponents in your game? I'll make a few examples about what's happening in our campaign.


- A blind character is near an opponent. The opponent moves 30 feet away. During his next turn, the player says that his character goes where the opponent is and attacks him (with the usual 50% miss chance), and here I don't really think this is possible. How can he know where's the opponent now?
What's RAW about this matter? A Listen check could be required, but it would be a really hard check in my opinion to understand as a free action where someone is with a 5 feet accuracy during a combat.

- A character is not blind, but the opponent is behind some trees and he can't know his location (but we still put his miniature on the map because several other PCs can see him). He says that he casts a Fireball centered in a point which is extremely convenient because allows him to hit just the opponent and no other PC. This is basically extreme metagaming; would you allow it? Are there some RAW reasons not to allow it?

- This one isn't really about blind characters. Let's suppose that some PCs are in melee with some opponents. The wizard says that he casts Fireball in a spot chosen accurately (sometimes in 3 dimensions) to hit all of the opponents and none of the PCs. I don't really like this because I'm sure this isn't how Fireball is intended to work; first of all, the character has just about one second to decide where the center of the Fireball should be and this is not easy; second of all, since the Fireball is an explosion it would make sense that the creatures near the center of the explosion take more damage than those near the edge, but I think the rules don't speak about this because they shouldn't be overcomplicated.

[Diarmuid]

1 & 2 are metagaming and should be handled by the DM accordingly.

3 I dont really have a problem with under the premise of "It's Magic!". In that same "second" you're talking about, the wizard has appropriately brought the specific gestures, words, etc all back to mind from the library of magic currently in his brain. He knows how that spell works to a T. As for center vs edge being hotter/taking more damage, again "It's Magic!", the entire area is instantly filled with the exact same amount of heat/fire.

[Solaris]

Metagaming
RAW, there's nothing you can do about it. RAI, I think the grenade splash table is entirely reasonable for use to determine which direction a blind character who fails a Listen check is actually going.


- This one isn't really about blind characters. Let's suppose that some PCs are in melee with some opponents. The wizard says that he casts Fireball in a spot chosen accurately (sometimes in 3 dimensions) to hit all of the opponents and none of the PCs. I don't really like this because I'm sure this isn't how Fireball is intended to work; first of all, the character has just about one second to decide where the center of the Fireball should be and this is not easy; second of all, since the Fireball is an explosion it would make sense that the creatures near the center of the explosion take more damage than those near the edge, but I think the rules don't speak about this because they shouldn't be overcomplicated.
The character casting the spell is a genius. I should hope he'd be able to cast a spell that tags his enemies and not his friends. He gets the precision down to feet, not centimeters, and he's good.

[Hazzardevil]

Blindfight and blindsight. That will help you see.

[Cog]

The blinded condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded) and the listen skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm) address most of this, while the invisible condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) gives rules for pinpointing creatures by means of making listen checks. "Pinpoint", in this case, means to identify the square that the creature is in.

The first Fireball situation is metagaming, yes. It would not be inappropriate for the other characters to have to declare their positions to the caster or to have the caster make listen checks; depending on which checks are failed, you should feel free to reposition the Fireball's center.

The second Fireball situation is less obvious. You might want to ask for Spot checks to so precisely choose a location, but unlike the blind condition, there's nothing making that inappropriate by RAW.

[Pigkappa]

So you just need a DC 10 Listen check to know out the exact location of an opponent who is 100 feet away. I guess they were high when they wrote down these rules.

I mean, if I were fighting something and suddenly become blind, I would be able to do nothing but run away.

[grimbold]

i believe that the "Blind" flaw gives you a bonus feat so it can be good if you have a good enough build

[Toliudar]

So you just need a DC 10 Listen check to know out the exact location of an opponent who is 100 feet away. I guess they were high when they wrote down these rules.

I mean, if I were fighting something and suddenly become blind, I would be able to do nothing but run away.

The DC 10 figure seems to assume that an opponent is engaged in combat, and making a great deal of noise. In that case, yes, someone who gets lucky on a listen check or has invested in the skill could indeed fire an arrow at them 100' away - and suffer the usual 50% miss chance, on top of having to beat AC. I suppose if you want to add to the inexactness of this, the DM could roll the listen check, so that the character in question might not know if they were targeting the right square, or one containing a colleague (for example).

The character is already blind: a major impediment. Maybe it's not necessary to completely remove all combat options other than 'move away at half speed.'

[Cog]

So you just need a DC 10 Listen check to know out the exact location of an opponent who is 100 feet away. I guess they were high when they wrote down these rules.
In the situation you described, there's +5 for obstacles (trees) in the way and +5 for distractions nearby unless everybody else in the group is being relatively quiet. So, DC 20 (Edit: 40, see below) if, as Toliudar pointed out, they're being noisy.


I mean, if I were fighting something and suddenly become blind, I would be able to do nothing but run away.
D&D is heroic fantasy. It's not meant to represent what you or I can do.

[Etrivar]

There is a feat in PHBII, Keen-Eared Scout. It actually lays out what the DC is for pin-pointing the location of another creature based on sound. It also gives you some other goodies, depending on how much you beat the DC by, like learning the creature type, and what equipment it carries. Could be useful for your blind guy:smallcool:

[Anxe]

Hear the Unseen is a must feat for blind characters that want to get into combat. For a move action they can pinpoint the locations of everything within 30 feet.

For example #1: How would this work in actual combat? The blind character would instantly follow the person who ran away. He's not pinpointing someone who's 30 feet away, he's following right behind someone until that person is 30 feet away. This one I don't have a big problem with. Remember that blind people need to make balance checks to move over half their speed though.

Example #2: My group will do that about half the time and not do it the other half the time. I wouldn't worry to much about that one.

Example #3: My players do that trick all the time. I let em do it. I get to do it with the NPC casters too, so it's all fair, right?

#3 would not be okay for a blind caster though, unless he made an epic listen check or something.

[Pigkappa]

They've been blinded by a nymph, I guess they are going to see again as soon as the cleric can fix them.

It's interesting that the feat says that you need it (and you need to beat the DC by 10+) to determine the "precise, current position" of the opponent. I wonder if the "normale" DC (+1 every 10 feet) is just for determing that there is someone.



Remember that blind people need to make balance checks to move over half their speed though.


Where does this rule come from?

[Cog]

Hear the Unseen is a must feat for blind characters that want to get into combat. For a move action they can pinpoint the locations of everything within 30 feet.
Pinpointing only gets you the square they're in, mind, so that's still not very melee-friendly without even more resources invested.


It's interesting that the feat says that you need it (and you need to beat the DC by 10+) to determine the "precise, current position" of the opponent. I wonder if the "normale" DC (+1 every 10 feet) is just for determing that there is someone.
Yeah, turns out that's the case after all. From the invisibility rules:

A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.
So, 35-40 in my last example, rather than 15-20.

[Telonius]

Where does this rule come from?

I'm not sure it's fully RAW, but it seems logical. From the Blinded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded)condition:


The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

From Hampered Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm):


Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement. When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.

You might reasonably conclude that Blinded has half movement speed because "poor visibility" applies all the time.

If you combine this with the Accelerated Movement section of the Balance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm)skill, I can see where he might have gotten that.


You can try to walk across a precarious surface more quickly than normal. If you accept a -5 penalty, you can move your full speed as a move action.

But the Blinded condition gives a penalty because of poor visibility, not specifically "precarious surface" like it says in the balance skill description. It seems like a fairly reasonable ruling by a DM to use the same mechanic, but I don't think it's explicitly RAW.

[Cog]

Note that the "accelerated movement" option only adds a modifier to the balance DC and does not give its own DC. With no base DC to add that modifier to, anything you do extrapolate from those rules would be completely arbitrary (which isn't the same as being unfair).

[RndmNumGen]

I'm actually intrigued by the idea of playing a blind character now... Possibly a warlock or sorcerer(wizard wouldn't work, obviously) who traded his vision in exchange for magical power. Hrm...

If it's not too much of a hijack, what would be some decent ways to overcome the drawback of being permanently blind? Keen-Eared Scout was already mentioned... seems like you would want to max out Listen then. Is there some way to obtain Blindsense?

[Telonius]

Two items from the MiC can get Blindsense (or better) for you: Blindfold of True Darkness and Blindhelm. Both are on p.75.

[Pigkappa]

This is partially unrelated but it isn't worth opening a new thread.

The nymph has an area of effect which blinds character at distance < 30 feet unless they succeed a saving throw. If they do succeed, can they be blinded during the next turn or did they become immune?

[Amnestic]

I'm actually intrigued by the idea of playing a blind character now... Possibly a warlock or sorcerer(wizard wouldn't work, obviously) who traded his vision in exchange for magical power. Hrm...

If it's not too much of a hijack, what would be some decent ways to overcome the drawback of being permanently blind? Keen-Eared Scout was already mentioned... seems like you would want to max out Listen then. Is there some way to obtain Blindsense?

The Unseelie Fey template (Dragon Compendium) can make you blind and give Blindsense 30'. Gives good Warlock stat boosts too. Does require you to be Evil though.

A Dragonborn with the Mind aspect gets Blindsense 30' once it reaches 15HD. S'not that great for the 14 levels before that though if you're blind ;p

[Greenish]

I'm actually intrigued by the idea of playing a blind character now... Possibly a warlock or sorcerer(wizard wouldn't work, obviously)Braille spellbook?

Wizard's Dragonshards and Aureon's Dragonshard might work too.

[Cog]

The nymph has an area of effect which blinds character at distance < 30 feet unless they succeed a saving throw. If they do succeed, can they be blinded during the next turn or did they become immune?
No such text is included in the ability's description, so the characters must save again each round. Based on the "look directly at" requirement, though, the usual gaze attack defenses should work as well.

[Kantolin]

Wizards are masters of geometry and math.

Sorcerors are masters of geometry and math (Bluff check vs the universe: 30)

Clerics just fire spells. Pelor then freaks out with a "WAIT that will oh geez, by me, okay a little to the left... just a touch that way - there!"

[Tancred]

Would familiars be able to help sufficiently for a blind character? A raven can speak a language of your choice from first level, it could give pointers on where to cast area-effect spells that needn't be too specific.

And if you can last long enough, how about Improved Familiar, to obtain a pseudodragon at 7th level? Its Darkvision + Blindsense + Telepathy means it could do the same but silently in a variety of situations...

[Heliomance]

- This one isn't really about blind characters. Let's suppose that some PCs are in melee with some opponents. The wizard says that he casts Fireball in a spot chosen accurately (sometimes in 3 dimensions) to hit all of the opponents and none of the PCs. I don't really like this because I'm sure this isn't how Fireball is intended to work; first of all, the character has just about one second to decide where the center of the Fireball should be and this is not easy; second of all, since the Fireball is an explosion it would make sense that the creatures near the center of the explosion take more damage than those near the edge, but I think the rules don't speak about this because they shouldn't be overcomplicated.

One of my DMs ruled that that sort of precise positioning required a Spellcraft check. Success meant you got it off as you wanted, failure meant you either couldn't get all the enemies you wanted in the area, or maybe hit a couple of your allies as well.

[Provengreil]

One of my characters was blinded once in combat. I had him go into the other room for the ensuing duration. he would roll a listen check, and I would describe (according to the check) what he heard and in which directions. if the check was good enough, he would be able to identify people by voice, and so on. this wouldn't work long term, though, it'd get really annoying.

[Pigkappa]

One of my DMs ruled that that sort of precise positioning required a Spellcraft check. Success meant you got it off as you wanted, failure meant you either couldn't get all the enemies you wanted in the area, or maybe hit a couple of your allies as well.

Spellcraft check with DC..?

[Epsilon Rose]

In order:
I imagine he'd be able to hear him moving away (since he started near by) and simply follow him. While in meta game the turns might be granular in universe the characters aren't actually taking turns, so there's nothing to say the movement doesn't happen at the same time in the description. Also, he's blind. Do you really need to make it worse for him?
If the wizard has no way to know he's there that is meta-game-y. However, if the party member who knows he's there some how signaled the wizard then he knows ruffly where his target and friendly is and it makes perfect sense for him to be able to hit just the target with an aoe like fire ball (unless the target is surrounded by friendlies he doesn't have the exact location of, at which point I'd make him roll an attack on the square and use grenade rules).
That is exactly how fire ball is intended to work (unless he's changing the shape without something that lets him change the shape). The wizard is allowed to choose where it hits and if he can choose a point that hits all the hostels and none of the friendlies than he should choose that point. Saying someone can't aim their own spells simply because they hurt to much is a bit unfair.
As for taking less damage at the edges... the rules don't really provide for that and this isn't exactly normal fire any ways (after all, a rogue on a featureless plain can doge in such a way as to avoid all damage from the blast with out moving from it's geometric center) so it's not really worth enforcing normal logic.

[Anxe]

I guess my Balance check nonsense is a house rule I was never even aware was a house rule. It just made sense to me that someone who is blind should be able to move their full speed. They're blind, not lame, right? But it's definitely harder.

Still, by RAW a blind person cannot move more than half their speed as stated by everyone above. If interested, my DC for moving at full speed was 20.

[Curmudgeon]

Still, by RAW a blind person cannot move more than half their speed as stated by everyone above.
You ever see anyone in real life who moves at their full speed when they can't see? It just doesn't happen. You need magic (like blindsight, which Daredevil has) to overcome the handicap.

[Larpus]

How do you handle characters who are blind or can't see the opponents in your game? I'll make a few examples about what's happening in our campaign.


- A blind character is near an opponent. The opponent moves 30 feet away. During his next turn, the player says that his character goes where the opponent is and attacks him (with the usual 50% miss chance), and here I don't really think this is possible. How can he know where's the opponent now?
What's RAW about this matter? A Listen check could be required, but it would be a really hard check in my opinion to understand as a free action where someone is with a 5 feet accuracy during a combat.
As with pretty much everything in this game, depends on the situation, but regardless, Listen Checks are what you're looking for.[/quote]

If the PC had enough time to get used to his blinded state, they're good to roll, but if it's a new condition, apply a penalty to them. You can also ask for a flat Int or Wis check (whichever is higher) or bonuses if the other party members are giving hints on where the baddies are.

And on a failed roll, make him a luck check to determine if he manages to move towards the enemy (on dumb luck alone), just in the enemie's general direction or away from him.

That said, the enemies can use maneuvers against him too, like Move Silently, Tumble, Jump and even Bluff or Perform (ventriloquism) to get around without the PC noticing or getting him confused.

Also remember that in such a case, Ghost Sound is the bane of said PC.


- A character is not blind, but the opponent is behind some trees and he can't know his location (but we still put his miniature on the map because several other PCs can see him). He says that he casts a Fireball centered in a point which is extremely convenient because allows him to hit just the opponent and no other PC. This is basically extreme metagaming; would you allow it? Are there some RAW reasons not to allow it?
Depends on if the other players gave him directions to pinpoint the location, which would allow him to make a Int/Wis check to get the location or give a nice bonus to the Spot check.

Also, if the other characters just say "there's someone ahead" and the Wizard throws the fireball at the general location the PCs are charging to but away enough to hit close to them but not them, then I guess he's just being clever and not meta at all.

But if he tosses it at an unusual or counter-intuitive location that is obviously meta, either rule him as unable to do it or roll a secret luck check, he passes, he lucked and was able to do it, he fails, due to poor information he was unable to properly shoot the spell and ends up affecting the party or misses the target.


- This one isn't really about blind characters. Let's suppose that some PCs are in melee with some opponents. The wizard says that he casts Fireball in a spot chosen accurately (sometimes in 3 dimensions) to hit all of the opponents and none of the PCs. I don't really like this because I'm sure this isn't how Fireball is intended to work; first of all, the character has just about one second to decide where the center of the Fireball should be and this is not easy; second of all, since the Fireball is an explosion it would make sense that the creatures near the center of the explosion take more damage than those near the edge, but I think the rules don't speak about this because they shouldn't be overcomplicated.
I think that's how it's supposed to go, in the Wizard's case he has high Int, which can translate to being able to make complex calculations and approximations on the fly.

A Cha caster can control the spell as an extension of their beings, especially Sorcerers who have as a widely accepted to have magic in their very veins.

And for Wis characters it can just mean insight on where to throw the magic so the intended effect is achieved based on instinct or divine guidance.

Bottom line: All the 3 caster types can do it, fairgame.