Character Creation Help (Dwarf Werewolf)

[mickeymacattack]

So I have this idea for a character that I want to play, buddy of mine is going to be DMing and wants to do an evil "monster" campaign.

My basic idea is a werewolf unarmed fighter, I had come across two classes which looked like an awesome combo together but never had a chance to play them out. Well now I do but I would like some advice.

What I have so far is Dwarf for race, 25 point build, werewolf template. I plan to take Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion) and Deepwarden (Races of Stone) to basically end up making a kind of feral unarmed fighter who can absorb damage like no tomorrow but still dish out decent damage.

The FotF provides Con to AC as an "AC Bonus" and scales unarmed damage similar to a Monk, while the Deepwarden provides a class bonus to AC called "Stone Warden" which replaces Dex with Con for AC. I know this is still a debated issue but for the most part since they are different sources my DM is ok with it.

I was planning on taking some levels in Chaos Monk (Dragon Mag. 335) as werewolves have to be chaotic evil. But I am wondering if I am shooting myself in the foot by taking monk at all. Would I be better off doing something along the lines of Barbarian? The main reason I wanted Monk is because of the scaling damage and the natural affinity the FotF seems to have for Monk as it increases your unarmed damage even more.

Also this is my first time playing a 25 point build (yes I am spoiled XD) so I would like some suggestions to make the best use of my ability points especially if I take Monk since they are so stat dependent.

Thanks in advance.

[Keld Denar]

Natural of Afflicted? Its the difference between +2 LA and +3 LA. This can make a big difference as to when different abilities come online.

Another good PrC to look into is Frostrager. It is also an UAS based rage class.

I wouldn't do monk of any type. You can get the same effects without losing the BAB. You'll already be way behind.

Also, can you buy off LA?

[Tvtyrant]

I suggest Barbarian and then take the Superior Unarmed Fighting feat which gives you a demi-monk fighting ability. Then stack that with Fist of the Forest.

[Hirax]

Might I suggest a werehound? Still good stats, and one less racial hit die. Or werejackal if you prefer, since they use the same stats. You would use the stats of a dog in creating a werehound/jackal, so in hybrid form you'd get +2str, +6dex, and +4con. Since fist of the forest will give you more dex while in feral trances, I'd recommend steering away from deepwarden, since your dex will be very good, whether you're a wolf or hound. Instead of monk levels, consider the unarmed swordsage variant. Plus, as a lycanthrope you'll have access to the warshaper prestige class from Complete Warrior, which will let you throttle up all your natural attacks.

[mickeymacattack]

Natural of Afflicted? Its the difference between +2 LA and +3 LA. This can make a big difference as to when different abilities come online.

Another good PrC to look into is Frostrager. It is also an UAS based rage class.

I wouldn't do monk of any type. You can get the same effects without losing the BAB. You'll already be way behind.

Also, can you buy off LA?

I believe we are doing natural as we are going to have full control of our ability to change.

How exactly can I get the same scaling unarmed damage without going monk? Because honestly that's what I really care about. Flurry of Blows would be really nice to have but I think that may be a weak reason to stick with a class.

And my DM is open to the idea of LA buy off but he has basically said we will see once we get to that point.

I guess it makes sense to bypass Deepwarden, but my reason for choosing it was so that I could bypass having to focus on Dex at all and kill two birds with one stone by having high Con/HP and AC.

But that is why I posted here so I could get suggestions :smallbiggrin:

[Keld Denar]

So...something like this:

{table]ECL|Class|BAB|Feat
1|LA1|
2|LA2|
3|LA3|
4|Ranger1|+1|Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron WillB, Great Fort (Otyuth Hold)
5|RHD1|+1|
6|RHD2|+2|Power Attack
7|Barbarian1|+3|
8|Barbarian2|+4|Improved Trip (Wolf Totem ACF)
9|FotF1|+5|Endurance
10|FotF2|+6|
11|Deepwarden1|+7|
12|Deepwarden2|+8|Frozen Berzerker
13|FotF3|+9|
14|Frostrager1|+10|
15|Frostrager2|+11|Superior Unarmed Strike
16|Frostrager3|+12|
17|Frostrager4|+13|
18|Frostrager5|+14|Steadfast Determination
19|Warshaper1|+15|
20|Warshaper2|+16|
21*|Warshaper3|+17|Knockdown
22*|Warshaper4|+18|
23*|FullBAB1|+19|
[/table]

The * levels assume you can buy off your LA. You should. If I read the rules right, you should get the Ranger level before the RHD, giving you the skill points you deperately need to get into both FotF and Deepwarden.

If you are allowed Flaws, things get a lot cleaner. You get Superior Unarmed Strike a lot earlier.

So, for most of your early career, you'll have UAS damage of 1d8. If you swap around so that you get FotF3 before Deepwarden, you'll get the 1d10 base at 11, otherwise you'll get it at 12. When you get SUAS at 15, your damage will go up to 4d6, and then up to 6d6 at Warshaper2. You'll have 1-2 punch from Frostrager, which functions kinda like Flurry of Blows, along with it's Rend attack. You'll be able to make full UAS attacks followed up by your Claw/Claw/Bite natural attack routine all at -2 from your highest UAS. Oh, and you can PA 1:1 on all 7-8 attacks you'll get per round, which will actually give you just about as good a return as a normal 2handed fighter gets due to your increased number of attacks. DR will hurt you a lot, but hopefully you can get around most of it with magic items.

[samster712]

if you wanted to be a werewolf why wouldn't you want to go the animal lord prestige class (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Animal_Lord_(3.5e_Prestige_Class))route:
^i kind of want to do this prestige class next campaign myself...it looks pretty cool.

that or the animal soul prestige class:
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Animal_Soul_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)

I'm kind of new to this though so i don't know if these suggestions are useful to you

[mickeymacattack]

So...something like this:

{table]ECL|Class|BAB|Feat
1|LA1|
2|LA2|
3|LA3|
4|Ranger1|+1|Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron WillB, Great Fort (Otyuth Hold)
5|RHD1|+1|
6|RHD2|+2|Power Attack
7|Barbarian1|+3|
8|Barbarian2|+4|Improved Trip (Wolf Totem ACF)
9|FotF1|+5|Endurance
10|FotF2|+6|
11|Deepwarden1|+7|
12|Deepwarden2|+8|Frozen Berzerker
13|FotF3|+9|
14|Frostrager1|+10|
15|Frostrager2|+11|Superior Unarmed Strike
16|Frostrager3|+12|
17|Frostrager4|+13|
18|Frostrager5|+14|Steadfast Determination
19|Warshaper1|+15|
20|Warshaper2|+16|
21*|Warshaper3|+17|Knockdown
22*|Warshaper4|+18|
23*|FullBAB1|+19|
[/table]

The * levels assume you can buy off your LA. You should. If I read the rules right, you should get the Ranger level before the RHD, giving you the skill points you deperately need to get into both FotF and Deepwarden.

If you are allowed Flaws, things get a lot cleaner. You get Superior Unarmed Strike a lot earlier.

So, for most of your early career, you'll have UAS damage of 1d8. If you swap around so that you get FotF3 before Deepwarden, you'll get the 1d10 base at 11, otherwise you'll get it at 12. When you get SUAS at 15, your damage will go up to 4d6, and then up to 6d6 at Warshaper2. You'll have 1-2 punch from Frostrager, which functions kinda like Flurry of Blows, along with it's Rend attack. You'll be able to make full UAS attacks followed up by your Claw/Claw/Bite natural attack routine all at -2 from your highest UAS. Oh, and you can PA 1:1 on all 7-8 attacks you'll get per round, which will actually give you just about as good a return as a normal 2handed fighter gets due to your increased number of attacks. DR will hurt you a lot, but hopefully you can get around most of it with magic items.

How exactly are you getting 4d6 damage at 15? From my understanding a non Monk medium character has an unarmed damage of 1d4 (this doesn't scale). FotF will bump me up to 1d8 at 1st level and then 1d10 at 3rd level. Assuming I take SUAS at level ECL 15 it wouldn't actually bump my damage at all, since it says your unarmed damage at 12-15 does 1d10 (which I would already have due to FotF, and it doesn't state it scales unless you are a monk). Frostrager only gives me a damage boost during rages, which don't get me wrong isn't bad but it isn't something I can do non stop. I don't know the exact details of warshaper so I cant do the math right now.

It just seems to me the only way to make my damage viable is by going monk, at least that way even if I don't have high damage die I can at least attack 7+ times per round.

And thanks for the posts regarding those other presitege classes, I don't think I can use them since they are homebrew but they are cool ideas.

[Keld Denar]

Looks like I misscalced a little.

Monk Belt gives you a base UAS of 1d8, and an effective monk level of 5. Add SUAS to that and you have 1d10 base. 2 size increase from FotF for 3d8, and of course hybred form is large so 4d8 base. Warshaper increases the effective size any natural attack (of which UAS counts for most respects), so that would give you 6d8, and Improved Natural Attack(UAS) gives you 8d8.

Frostrager doesn't actually give you any boost to your UAS damage, but it does add the frost damage, gives you pseudo-Flurry, and Rend.

2 flaws would allow you to move down SUAS a few levels, and give you Extra Rage, which'll help your Frostragerness.

[mickeymacattack]

Looks like I misscalced a little.

Monk Belt gives you a base UAS of 1d8, and an effective monk level of 5. Add SUAS to that and you have 1d10 base. 2 size increase from FotF for 3d8, and of course hybred form is large so 4d8 base. Warshaper increases the effective size any natural attack (of which UAS counts for most respects), so that would give you 6d8, and Improved Natural Attack(UAS) gives you 8d8.

Frostrager doesn't actually give you any boost to your UAS damage, but it does add the frost damage, gives you pseudo-Flurry, and Rend.

2 flaws would allow you to move down SUAS a few levels, and give you Extra Rage, which'll help your Frostragerness.

So if I am adding this up correctly it should come out to be something like this? (correct me if I miss something)

Unarmed damage starting - 1d4 (ECL 1-8)
Monks belt - 1d8 (ECL X-8; X = whatever level you get it)
FotF 1st - 1d10 (ECL 9-10)
FotF 3rd - 2d6 (ECL 11-14)
SUAS - 2d6 (ECL 15-20) - The problem with this is according to the text the damage doesn't scale if you already do the same amount or more so I am reluctant to increase it to the next damage die. The only way I can see this working would be to get SUAS as early as possible but even then having the monk belt will already get me the extra damage die I need.

I didn't include warshaper levels because I am not familiar enough with the class to start giving numbers.

[Keld Denar]

SUAS would make you restack things. Its kinda counterintuitive, but you always add things in the most beneficial order, rather than their order of application.

So SUAS would kick in and stack with Monk Belt (assuming you read that it CAN), and then you start stacking size from there.

Warshaper simply gives you another size bump as long as you are in a form that is not your own, which would cover hybred and wolf form.

[mickeymacattack]

SUAS would make you restack things. Its kinda counterintuitive, but you always add things in the most beneficial order, rather than their order of application.

So SUAS would kick in and stack with Monk Belt (assuming you read that it CAN), and then you start stacking size from there.

Warshaper simply gives you another size bump as long as you are in a form that is not your own, which would cover hybred and wolf form.

Ok that just confuses me can you lay it out on paper for me?

[Keld Denar]

I did...

ECL4-8, UAS is 1d4 (UAS for a large creature)
+ Monks Belt, UAS goes to 1d8 medium, 2d6 large)
ECL9-10 with Monk Belt, size boost (2d6 > 3d6)
ECL11-14 with Monk Belt, size boost x2 (3d6 > 4d6)
ECL15-19, pick up SUAS, restack. Effective monk level is now 9 (1d10 medium, 3d6 large) * I screwed up here, I thought 1d10 went to 2d8, monks are screwy) Both FotF boosts kick in from here, so 3d6 > 4d6 > 6d6
ECL 20 Warshaper size boost kicks in, 6d6 > 8d6

Sorry, I've been a bit confused myself, going from memory for the size charts. This time I looked it up, so everything should be sane now.

[mickeymacattack]

I did...

ECL4-8, UAS is 1d4 (UAS for a large creature)
+ Monks Belt, UAS goes to 1d8 medium, 2d6 large)
ECL9-10 with Monk Belt, size boost (2d6 > 3d6)
ECL11-14 with Monk Belt, size boost x2 (3d6 > 4d6)
ECL15-19, pick up SUAS, restack. Effective monk level is now 9 (1d10 medium, 3d6 large) * I screwed up here, I thought 1d10 went to 2d8, monks are screwy) Both FotF boosts kick in from here, so 3d6 > 4d6 > 6d6
ECL 20 Warshaper size boost kicks in, 6d6 > 8d6

Sorry, I've been a bit confused myself, going from memory for the size charts. This time I looked it up, so everything should be sane now.

Where is the increase in size coming from? As a dwarf I would be medium and as far as I know werewolves aren't considered large.

[Keld Denar]

GAH!!#!@%$RTGRSETYRQ#$%!$~#%

Ok, I'm dumb. Forget it...Blarg. I thought Were-wolves in hybred form were large.

So it should be 4d6 at 15-19 and 6d6 at 20. My bad.

[mickeymacattack]

GAH!!#!@%$RTGRSETYRQ#$%!$~#%

Ok, I'm dumb. Forget it...Blarg. I thought Were-wolves in hybred form were large.

So it should be 4d6 at 15-19 and 6d6 at 20. My bad.

Does a monks belt scale? For instance if you already do the damage of a 5th level monk does it scale to the next level?

Basically what I am seeing is this (assuming ECL 15 with most beneficial changes first):

Unarmed damage 1d4>Monks belt 1d8>SUAS 1d10>FotF 1st 2d6>FotF 3rd 2d8

Again not including warshaper levels.

So basically unless the damage from the monks belt scales I could actually get rid of it by level 8 as SUAS would give me 1d8 at 8th level.

[Keld Denar]

It doesn't scale. It does give you the base monk level you need to stack FotF levels on though...

And the next size up from 2d6 is 3d6, not 2d8.

[mickeymacattack]

It doesn't scale. It does give you the base monk level you need to stack FotF levels on though...

And the next size up from 2d6 is 3d6, not 2d8.

Unarmed damage actually scales based on the monk unarmed damage chart which goes from 2d6 to 2d8 to 2d10. It specifically stats this on both the monks belt as well as FotF, doesn't look like it says anything on SUAS though. I know its silly that it doesn't scale like manufactured weapon damage does but to be honest it would be silly if it did.

[Keld Denar]

Where does it say that? FotF gives size increases. Size advances by the size table, not the effective monk table...

If a straight monk took Improved Natural Attack or had Enlarge Person cast on him, he would deal damage as a large monk, not as a monk 4 levels higher...

[mickeymacattack]

Where does it say that? FotF gives size increases. Size advances by the size table, not the effective monk table...

If a straight monk took Improved Natural Attack or had Enlarge Person cast on him, he would deal damage as a large monk, not as a monk 4 levels higher...

Except arent unarmed strikes considered manufactured weapons? In otherwords as a werewolf I couldn't count my claw attacks as unarmed strikes could I since the claw attacks have a set damage die already applied to them?

[Cog]

...increase the base damage to the next step indicated
on the monk class table.
It's right at the end of the unarmed damage entry. The increase language is only in there once, so the way it's worded, if you already come in with 1d8 or more damage you only get a single increase out of the class. 2d6, or 2d8 if you allow a double increase anyway.

Unarmed strikes are natural attacks that use your iterative/manufactured attack routine.

[mickeymacattack]

It's right at the end of the unarmed damage entry. The increase language is only in there once, so the way it's worded, if you already come in with 1d8 or more damage you only get a single increase out of the class. 2d6, or 2d8 if you allow a double increase anyway.

The only problem with that is if it works that way it effectively makes the third level of that class useless, it sounds more like a poorly worded description as the author assumed people would use the same mechanics for both levels.

Also just to clarify this actually does work for both damage increases.

"Unarmed Damage (Ex): Your unarmed attacks deal more damage than usual. At 1st level, you deal ld8 points of damage with each unarmed strike. When you attain 3rd level, this damage increases to 1d10 points. See the monk class feature (PH 41). If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table."

If you notice it lists the damage increases first stating the damage for both first and third levels, then references the monk class feature. It then states that if you already deal this damage to increase it to the next step on the chart. It leaves the scaling statement at the end because it is encompassing both levels.

[Cog]

The only problem with that is if it works that way it effectively makes the third level of that class useless...
Not at all. It's only worthless if you come into the class with 1d8 or higher unarmed damage (and even then, you still get the other class features). The ability works just fine for somebody who's coming in with only the Improved Unarmed Strike that's all the class actually requires.

[mickeymacattack]

Not at all. It's only worthless if you come into the class with 1d8 or higher unarmed damage (and even then, you still get the other class features). The ability works just fine for somebody who's coming in with only the Improved Unarmed Strike that's all the class actually requires.

See the edit to my last post, as per the text it covers both damage increases, specifically stating that if you already do this damage increase it based on the monk chart.

But regardless this is getting away from the reason I made the thread, I have gotten some good info from this so far but I would still like some suggestions on how to spend my starting 25 ability points.

[Keld Denar]

Wow, I'm really off my game. I just got home from work and looked up Fist of the Forest...I've been doing it wrong this whole time. Ok, from now on, completely disregard everything I've said up until this point about UAS damage. I'm dumb.

As far as natural attacks/manufactured attacks and their interaction, check out the mini-guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) I co-wrote.

For your stats, I'd prioritize Con, Str, Dex, Int, Wis, Cha. Probably go with a 16 base Con (10 points), then a 14 Str (6 points), a 14 Dex (6 points), and then 2 points in Int to get a 0 balance, and the last point doesn't really matter at this point.

That results in:
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 18
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 6

after racials. You still have 1 point left, so you could put it anywhere really between Int, Wis, and Cha. Steadfast Determination boosts your Will save, so you can effectively dump Wisdom. Cha is likewise pretty worthless to you, since you probably won't even have skill points left over after qualifying for Deepwarden (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4) to put ranks in Intimidate. Int, well, you don't want to go any lower than that, and as it stands, qualifying for Deepwarden might be kinda tough. Lets see...

Climb 5 ranks, Heal 5 ranks, Jump 5 ranks, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 5 ranks, Survival 5 ranks.

1st level Ranger, 10 int gives you 24 points
4 ranks Climb
4 ranks Heal
4 ranks Jump
4 ranks Knowledge(Dungeoneering)
4 ranks Survival

2 animal RHD give you 4 skill points, but the animal HD doesn't have class skills...lets just assume you can put one rank in Climb, Jump, Survival, and Heal with those.

2 Barbarian HD give you 8 more skill points. You need 2 for a crossclass rank in Knowledge(Dungeoneering). You also need to drop 4 in Handle Animal for Fist of the Forest. That leaves you with a wopping 2 skill points left over for other junk. Probably ranks in Tumble...

Fortunately, that's all the skill ranks you need. Frostrager and Warshaper don't have any skill requirements that'll be hard to meet by the time you get to them.

[mickeymacattack]

For your stats, I'd prioritize Con, Str, Dex, Int, Wis, Cha. Probably go with a 16 base Con (10 points), then a 14 Str (6 points), a 14 Dex (6 points), and then 2 points in Int to get a 0 balance, and the last point doesn't really matter at this point.

That results in:
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 18
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 6




Technically werewolves have class skills as well as bonuses to several skills, I will have to find the list but its things like handle animal, hide, etc.

I just realized another bonus to taking at least a few levels in monk, that being that unarmed strikes can be made with any part of the body so effectively I can attack with unarmed strike and then hit with my claws and bite with a -5 to each.

[Cog]

I just realized another bonus to taking at least a few levels in monk, that being that unarmed strikes can be made with any part of the body so effectively I can attack with unarmed strike and then hit with my claws and bite with a -5 to each.
This is true of any unarmed strike. It's simply repeated in the Monk description.

[mickeymacattack]

This is true of any unarmed strike. It's simply repeated in the Monk description.

Ah I see that, but only a Monks unarmed strikes are treated as both manufactured and natural for spells and effects, as such feats like "Improved Natural Attack" will only apply to the unarmed strikes of a monk.

Unless there is wording that says all unarmed strikes are treated as natural weapons? So far I can only find that wording listed specifically under the Monks unarmed strike ability.

[Callus Darkmore]

that sounds like an interesting character. I am still trying to figure out how to create a 1/2 god like hercules, the god-blooded just isn't how I imagined a 1/2 god to be.

[Cog]

Unless there is wording that says all unarmed strikes are treated as natural weapons? So far I can only find that wording listed specifically under the Monks unarmed strike ability.
They neglect to say so explicitly in the combat rules, as it simply is a part of the body and so is not a manufactured weapon. There are places where it's specifically noted, though, such as the Magic Weapon spell:

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike...

[mickeymacattack]

They neglect to say so explicitly in the combat rules, as it simply is a part of the body and so is not a manufactured weapon. There are places where it's specifically noted, though, such as the Magic Weapon spell:

I am slightly tempted now to go the route hirax suggested and simply ditch deepwarden :smallannoyed:

[Keld Denar]

Naw, keep Deepwarden. Its great. It gives you 2x +Con to AC when you stack it with Fist of the Forest. That with your high Con bonus is awesome.

[Hirax]

I am slightly tempted now to go the route hirax suggested and simply ditch deepwarden :smallannoyed:

That suggestion was slightly contingent on you being a werehound/werejackal instead of a werewolf, since you'd get +6 dex instead of +4. Though I still think it's a superior idea anyway by virtue of it only have 1 racial hit die.

[mickeymacattack]

That suggestion was slightly contingent on you being a werehound/werejackal instead of a werewolf, since you'd get +6 dex instead of +4. Though I still think it's a superior idea anyway by virtue of it only have 1 racial hit die.

Yes well we kind of have a theme going on with me an another character being werewolves. Mechanically it may be better but not flavor wise :smallannoyed:

I guess going deepwarden would you recommend piling all my points into Con instead of Str? I would assume so but 14 Str just seems so low for a fighter.

I did find another way to increase my damage though so I think I can successfully ditch my monk. Improved Natural Attack increases my natural weapon damage die as it was one size category larger (still trying to figure out what that scales to on a monks unarmed strike) Any thoughts?

[Keld Denar]

Its a good idea, it stacks with all other size increases. The only problem is that it only increases the damage for one weapon. So taking it for your UAS means that it doesn't boost your claw damage, or your bite damage. Still, if you can stack on enough size mods, the dice get pretty staggering.

[mickeymacattack]

Its a good idea, it stacks with all other size increases. The only problem is that it only increases the damage for one weapon. So taking it for your UAS means that it doesn't boost your claw damage, or your bite damage. Still, if you can stack on enough size mods, the dice get pretty staggering.

Well my UAS are whats going to be doing all the damage, at most my claws will go from 1d6 to what 1d8? And my bite to 1d10? This is all at a -5 to hit unless I get multiattack.

In all honesty my UAS IS my damage for this build, and even then with a relatively low STR score I wont be doing much outside of my base damage die.

[Keld Denar]

Remember, Power Attack is a prereq for FotF, and you get 1:1 PA with all natural attacks, including your UAS. Normally offhand weapons don't get PA damage, making PA undesired for TWFing. Secondary natural weapons work different. They do get PA. So, if you have 4 UASs, 2 Claws, and a Bite, thats 7 attacks. If you PA for 2 points, you could get +14 damage, and PA for 3 would result in +21 damage. That's a better return than normal 2handed fighting gives. Get a pair of Armbands of Might and your PA for 2 will result in +28 damage per round. Bonuses to hit aren't that hard to come by that you can't afford to pick up a couple. Also, consider things like Snap Kick from Tome of Battle to get even more attacks per round.

Seriously, with Haste, Snap Kick, One-Two Punch, and your full secondary natural attack routine on a +11 BAB chassis at mid levels, you are looking at 9 attacks per round.

[mickeymacattack]

Remember, Power Attack is a prereq for FotF, and you get 1:1 PA with all natural attacks, including your UAS. Normally offhand weapons don't get PA damage, making PA undesired for TWFing. Secondary natural weapons work different. They do get PA. So, if you have 4 UASs, 2 Claws, and a Bite, thats 7 attacks. If you PA for 2 points, you could get +14 damage, and PA for 3 would result in +21 damage. That's a better return than normal 2handed fighting gives. Get a pair of Armbands of Might and your PA for 2 will result in +28 damage per round. Bonuses to hit aren't that hard to come by that you can't afford to pick up a couple. Also, consider things like Snap Kick from Tome of Battle to get even more attacks per round.

Seriously, with Haste, Snap Kick, One-Two Punch, and your full secondary natural attack routine on a +11 BAB chassis at mid levels, you are looking at 9 attacks per round.

I did have a question for you regarding your ability allocation, why did you choose 14 in Dex when its basically going to become worthless? Seems like a waste of 6 points, remember I only have 25 to work with.

[Keld Denar]

Good point...Intiative? You could spend those 6 points to go with an 18 starting Con if you wanted (20 after racials), drop down to an 8 Dex. Or take that one stray point and start with a 17 Con, and still have 4 points elsewhere. Maybe go up to a 16 Str or get a 13 Int if you want Combat Expetese or more skill points. Up to you, there isn't really a right way to do it.

[mickeymacattack]

Well here is what I think I am going to go with so far, partly for mechanics and partly for flavor. I decided to go ahead and take monk in place of your ranger, also where are you getting so many feats at first level?

STR - 16
DEX - 8
CON - 18 (After racials)
INT - 10
WIS - 13
CHA - 4 (-2 at start, -2 from racials) Not sure if lower an ability at creation is legal but our DM told us to do it so. Although I wanted to know do Racial HD count towards your feat progression? In other words do I count 1 Racial HD as 1 character level for the purpose of determining when I get a new feat?

The problem I am running into now is that my DM is starting us with almost no gold so I wont be able to get things like Monks belt for a while.

[Keld Denar]

Racial HD are HD. Feat aquisition is dependant entirely on HD. Class levels are HD, racial HD are HD. If it gives you HP and affects your ECL, its a HD. LA does NOT give feats, though, but does affect your ECL.

The lycanthrope template gives Iron Will as a bonus feat, so that's where that comes from. I included Great Fortitude there, but you can put it anywhere before you take your first FotF level. You can buy it with gold by virtue of the Otyuth Hole magical location. Its in Complete Scoundrel. Basically, WotC realized they put a bunch of dumb feats in the game that people only take because they are prereqs. Thusly, they put in a bunch of magical locations where you can effectively pay money to buy certain craptacular feats. Frog God's Fane is another popular location which can give you Skill Focus: Knowledge(Nature or Religion), which is useful for PrCs like Divine Oracle or Loremaster. Its 3000g well spent, if you can get it.

The issue with replacing the Ranger level with a Monk level is that that delays entry into FotF. FotF requires a BAB of +4. You get 1 BAB from the 2 RHD, you get 2 from the 2 Barb levels, and you get 1 more from the Ranger level. If you aren't using fractional BAB (variant rule from UA), you are only going to have a +3 BAB by the time you finish Monk1/RHD2/Barb2, and you'll have to take another Monk level, another Barbarian level, or another level of a full BAB class, to get there.

[mickeymacattack]

Racial HD are HD. Feat aquisition is dependant entirely on HD. Class levels are HD, racial HD are HD. If it gives you HP and affects your ECL, its a HD. LA does NOT give feats, though, but does affect your ECL.

Ok that makes sense.


The lycanthrope template gives Iron Will as a bonus feat, so that's where that comes from. I included Great Fortitude there, but you can put it anywhere before you take your first FotF level. You can buy it with gold by virtue of the Otyuth Hole magical location. Its in Complete Scoundrel. Basically, WotC realized they put a bunch of dumb feats in the game that people only take because they are prereqs. Thusly, they put in a bunch of magical locations where you can effectively pay money to buy certain craptacular feats. Frog God's Fane is another popular location which can give you Skill Focus: Knowledge(Nature or Religion), which is useful for PrCs like Divine Oracle or Loremaster. Its 3000g well spent, if you can get it.

I suppose that makes sense but I am trying to keep things as simple as possible for my DM, I will run it by him but doubt he will go for it.

I dont see Iron Will as a feat that wolves get, it actually states in the creating a lycanthrope section that you get feats/skills/save/BAB/etc from the animal you choose. Werewolf = wolf, werebear = bear, etc, the only feats a wolf has is track and weapon focus (bite) according to the MM page 283.


The issue with replacing the Ranger level with a Monk level is that that delays entry into FotF. FotF requires a BAB of +4. You get 1 BAB from the 2 RHD, you get 2 from the 2 Barb levels, and you get 1 more from the Ranger level. If you aren't using fractional BAB (variant rule from UA), you are only going to have a +3 BAB by the time you finish Monk1/RHD2/Barb2, and you'll have to take another Monk level, another Barbarian level, or another level of a full BAB class, to get there.

Hmmm I see your point but without monk levels I wont be able to take things like Improved Natural Attack and things like the warshapers ability to enhance natural weapons wouldn't effect my UAS would it?

[Cog]

I dont see Iron Will as a feat that wolves get, it actually states in the creating a lycanthrope section that you get feats/skills/save/BAB/etc from the animal you choose. Werewolf = wolf, werebear = bear, etc, the only feats a wolf has is track and weapon focus (bite) according to the MM page 283.
Look in the "Creating a Lycanthrope" section.


Hmmm I see your point but without monk levels I wont be able to take things like Improved Natural Attack and things like the warshapers ability to enhance natural weapons wouldn't effect my UAS would it?
As I pointed out earlier in the thread, unarmed strike is always a natural weapon.

[mickeymacattack]

Look in the "Creating a Lycanthrope" section.


Correct it states on page 177 of the MM that "Add the base animal’s feats to the base creature’s. If this results in a lycanthrope having the same feat twice, the lycanthrope gains no additional benefit unless the feat normally can be taken more once, in which case the duplicated feat works as noted in the feat description. This process may give the lycanthrope more feats than a character of its total Hit Dice would normally be entitled to; if this occurs, any “extra” feats are denoted as bonus feats."

Remember that the example they give in the werewolf chart is using that of a human warrior with premade feats and skills.

On Page 283 of the MM a wolf is listed as having only Track and Weapon Focus (Bite).

[Cog]

Read the last sentence of the paragraph right after that one.

[mickeymacattack]

Read the last sentence of the paragraph right after that one.

Ah missed that.

[mickeymacattack]

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, unarmed strike is always a natural weapon.

Except as natural weapons they do not progress along the path that manufactured weapons do correct? Meaning they get a strict 1 attack with said weapon regardless of whether your level 1 or 20, as oppose to a monks unarmed strike which follows a manufactured weapons BAB progression.

So basically without monk levels I could make attacks with my natural weapons, I.E. unarmed strike, claws, bite. but I wouldn't get more then 1 attack with each correct?

[Cog]

Unarmed Strike uses your iterative attacks just like a manufactured weapon does. To be more specific, the only things unusual about a Monk's unarmed strike are the damage die, the fact that all weapon-buff spells apply to it, and the fact that it's never an offhand weapon. Everything else about it is either innate to unarmed strikes or is a part of the basic Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

[Keld Denar]

Unarmed Strikes are wierd. They are 90% a natural weapon. You can enchant them like natural weapons, feats you take that enhance natural weapons affect them, they are light weapons but still benefit from 1:1 PA, etc. The only difference between an UAS and a claw attack is that you treat an UAS as a manufactured weapon SOLELY when considering your attack routine from BAB. You are correct, MOST natural weapons only get one attack per weapon, regardless of BAB. UASs are different, because they explicitly are. Thus, if you would normally make attacks at +11/+6/+1 with a longsword, you would make attacks with your UAS at +11/+6/+1, etc.

Its kinda confusing, sorta. You just gotta recoginize the exceptions. UASs are natural weapons EXCEPT when they aren't.

[mickeymacattack]

Unarmed Strike uses your iterative attacks just like a manufactured weapon does. To be more specific, the only things unusual about a Monk's unarmed strike are the damage die, the fact that all weapon-buff spells apply to it, and the fact that it's never an offhand weapon. Everything else about it is either innate to unarmed strikes or is a part of the basic Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

So why is it then, and more specifically where does it state, that unarmed strikes are a special exception to the natural weapon rule? It just seems like if those are the rules for them they seem to be in some weird limbo between natural and manufactured weapons.

Can someone give me a page number for this stuff? While I trust most information I can get on these boards its nice to have something from a book to back you up when someone questions it.

[Keld Denar]

Well, for one thing, UASs appear on the weapon table along with all of the other manufactured weapons, while no other natural weapon does.

The whole thing was pretty clearly expounded upon by a 3-part Rules of the Game article. They basically admitted that they did a bad job of explaining it, and went about clarifying it.

[mickeymacattack]

Well, for one thing, UASs appear on the weapon table along with all of the other manufactured weapons, while no other natural weapon does.

The whole thing was pretty clearly expounded upon by a 3-part Rules of the Game article. They basically admitted that they did a bad job of explaining it, and went about clarifying it.

Ok so then when I lay all this out I can basically point to the spell examples stating that unarmed strikes are natural weapons and use the weapon index to show they are manufactured as well?

[Cog]

They aren't manufactured, they just use the same attack slots that manufactured weapons do.

[mickeymacattack]

They aren't manufactured, they just use the same attack slots that manufactured weapons do.

But you can also apply feats to the such as weapon focus cant you?

And secondly how is all of this going to scale?

SUAS scales based on ECL, so does that mean abilities like Improved Natural Attack would scale based on my damage according to SUAS or would it be a one time increase based on my damage as it was when I took the feat?

[Keld Denar]

You can apply those to natural weapons as well. Wolves have Weapon Focus(Bite), for example.

I was refering to feats like Improved Natural Attack. It only applies to natural attacks. You can't take Improved Natural Attack(Longsword), since a Longsword is not a natural attack. You COULD take Improved Natural Attack(Claw), or Improved Natural Attack(Unarmed Strike), though.

[mickeymacattack]

You can apply those to natural weapons as well. Wolves have Weapon Focus(Bite), for example.

I was refering to feats like Improved Natural Attack. It only applies to natural attacks. You can't take Improved Natural Attack(Longsword), since a Longsword is not a natural attack. You COULD take Improved Natural Attack(Claw), or Improved Natural Attack(Unarmed Strike), though.

Ok so how does this stuff scale?

SUAS scales based on my ECL, FotF and INA do not give any indication they do, so would I have to recalculate my damage each time I reach a new tier on the SUAS scale?

[Cog]

SUAS scales based on ECL, so does that mean abilities like Improved Natural Attack would scale based on my damage according to SUAS or would it be a one time increase based on my damage as it was when I took the feat?
At any given level, SUS gives you a certain about of damage. Whenever you get a new level of damage from it, you look at the table given in INA, plug in the new number and get a new increased number.

Edit: SUS is based off your character level, not your ECL. Your LA does not improve your unarmed strike damage.

[mickeymacattack]

At any given level, SUS gives you a certain about of damage. Whenever you get a new level of damage from it, you look at the table given in INA, plug in the new number and get a new increased number.

Edit: SUS is based off your character level, not your ECL. Your LA does not improve your unarmed strike damage.

Yes sorry meant my character level.

So basically if I was character level 8 with SUAS I do 1d8, with another 3 levels of FotF that goes to 1d10 and then 2d6. This now puts my character at level 11, now assuming I gain another level my SUAS damage would normally scale from 1d8 to 1d10, so based on what your saying I should now re-adjust my FotF damage accordingly correct?

[samster712]

have you considered a shifter race instead? they are literally werewolves...

[mickeymacattack]

have you considered a shifter race instead? they are literally werewolves...

I chose dwarf specifically because some of the stuff I want is dwarf only.

[mickeymacattack]

So just to give anyone a heads up who was wondering, ended up finding something in the 3.5 FAQ which states that Monks treat unarmed strikes has natural weapons and manufactured and as such can take feats like improved natural attack. It doesn't explicitly state it but it seems to indicate that non monks cannot treat unarmed strikes as natural weapons.

Not trying to debate just laying that out there for anyone who was looking, take it as you will.

[Keld Denar]

No, non-monks can't treat UASs as manufactured weapons with regards to spells and effects that affect manufactured weapons. An UAS is ALWAYS a natural weapon.

The only thing not natural about an UAS is the fact that it uses iterative attacks.

[mickeymacattack]

No, non-monks can't treat UASs as manufactured weapons with regards to spells and effects that affect manufactured weapons. An UAS is ALWAYS a natural weapon.

The only thing not natural about an UAS is the fact that it uses iterative attacks.

Well like I said not going to debate it since I am sure its already been done.

Regardless ended up deciding what to do with my character so thanks for all the input.