Dark Flames of Awesome

[true_shinken]

I recently got my hands on Lords of Darkness, a book that has eluded me for years. Now, I think this is a great book.

I just noticed something very interesting. There are three rituals for Cyric worshippers in the book. One gives an unnamed bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Handle Animal as well as immunity to zone of truth or similar spells below 5th level. It costs 2 Constitution points that can't be healed. So, whatever, be a necropoliton.
The other one is pretty good anyone - for the bargain price of 500gp and 1600xp, you get charm person and suggestion once a day each. That's two half-strenght eternal wands for a bargain price.
The last one - oh, the last one oozes awesome.
You fire black flames of negative energy out of your hand. Yes, that's right. You can be Hiei for just 100gp and 1200xp. Oh, you lose Wisdom any time you use this. Who cares? Just be a necropolitan and call it a day.
Oh, these flames heal undead.
Ranged touch attack (range is pitiful, though), 1d6 damage per Hit Die.

Now, as I mentioned the range is pitiful. If only there was a way to get extra range on supernatural abilities, this would be my most favourite D&D thing to get on my Rogues ever.

http://sp6.fotologs.net/photo/54/2/7/crazy_ikki/1139686050_f.jpg

[Amnestic]

Oh, you lose Wisdom any time you use this. Who cares? Just be a necropolitan and call it a day.


Am I missing something about the Necropolitan being immune to Wis damage/not having a Wisdom score? o.O

[KillianHawkeye]

Undead are only immune to physical ability damage. Their Wisdom can be damaged just fine.

[true_shinken]

Am I missing something about the Necropolitan being immune to Wis damage/not having a Wisdom score? o.O
Hm, it's not ability drain, yeah. Necropolitan's would still take damage, then.
Of course, Strongheart Vest with 1 essentia fixes this.
EDIT: Or bind Dahlver-Nar. Even through the Bind Vestige feat it's enough.

[Amnestic]

Hm, it's not ability drain, yeah. Necropolitan's would still take damage, then.
Of course, Strongheart Vest with 1 essentia fixes this.
EDIT: Or bind Dahlver-Nar. Even through the Bind Vestige feat it's enough.

Fair enough.

And for the record, there is an Enlarge Supernatural Ability feat in Tome of Magic (Binder feat section) which doubles the range...once per day per feat investment. I kinda doubt it's worth it.

[Cog]

It's Naberious who gets the ability score healing, and that vestige ability isn't available by feat. It's just a one-level dip, though.

[Amnestic]

It's Naberious who gets the ability score healing, and that vestige ability isn't available by feat. It's just a one-level dip, though.

Dahlver-Nar's first granted ability is "immunity to Wisdom damage, Wisdom drain, madness, insanity and confusion effects."

[Cog]

Aah. Okay, there's two ways for Binder to do this, then.

Dahlver-Nar is only available with Improved Bind Vestige, though, so that's a two-feat cost.

[Zaq]

Huh. Bizarre, but nifty. I do love that you have to go to rather not-exactly-low-op measures (I'm not gonna call the Strongheart Vest "high-op," but let's face it, there's a little book diving involved if you want to use these flames scot-free) to actually use them. If you just use it out of the box, you'll never kill anything before pounding yourself into a coma. (1d6 per HD isn't awful, but with very few ways to boost it more than the barest number of times per day, it's still not exactly stellar compared to 2 WIS loss per casting.)

My favorite part, though, has to be the ridiculously tiny GP component. Hell, if you don't buy armor, many characters can afford 100 gp as starting characters. It's most of their wealth, yes, but they can do it. (Not that they can pay the XP cost, of course, but still.)

Nifty find, nonetheless. Does it count as a ray? Those ray-boosting lenses from Lords of Madness might work, if it is. It's probably not, of course, but hey, worth checking, right?

[Cog]

Nifty find, nonetheless. Does it count as a ray? Those ray-boosting lenses from Lords of Madness might work, if it is. It's probably not, of course, but hey, worth checking, right?
It might count as a ray, but the beholder lenses work for eye rays and spells only.

[Zaq]

So, hmm. What's the cost of entry to use this properly, aside from the 100 GP and 1,200 XP?

EITHER:
1 feat + racial choice (Strongheart Vest, azurin or duskling)
OR
2 feats (Strongheart Vest + any incarnum feat OR Bind Vestige/Improved Bind Vestige: Dahlver-Nar)
OR
1 class level (Incarnate)

And in exchange, you get . . . well, something not bad, honestly. If you can handle being within 10 feet, it's twice as good as a vanilla Eldritch Blast (and arguably harder to resist . . . negative energy immunity vs. SR, so a toss-up depending on whether you fight more undead or more high-SR monsters like outsiders), and while a non-pumped EB isn't going to win any damage output contests anytime soon, it's still a nice fall-back for a character who, say, wants to focus more resources into skillmonkeying than combat, or who has especially limited daily resources (*coughcoughSHADOWCASTERcough*), or anything like that.

The more I think about this, actually, the more I like it on a Shadowcaster. If my current character dies, I may ask my GM to file off the serial numbers and let me take it on a Shadowcaster. This is exactly the kind of at-will fall-back they need to stay, well, not horribly useless for more than three or four rounds a day. Cool find, my friend.

[true_shinken]

So, hmm. What's the cost of entry to use this properly, aside from the 100 GP and 1,200 XP?
It's a ritual, so you'd have to know about it first. The book provides no rules about this, though.


EITHER:
1 feat + racial choice (Strongheart Vest, azurin or duskling)
OR
2 feats (Strongheart Vest + any incarnum feat OR Bind Vestige/Improved Bind Vestige: Dahlver-Nar)
OR
1 class level (Incarnate)
Binder 3 or Binder 1 + Improved Binding also works to get Dahlver-Nar and even opens up Naberius.


And in exchange, you get . . . well, something not bad, honestly. If you can handle being within 10 feet, it's twice as good as a vanilla Eldritch Blast (and arguably harder to resist . . . negative energy immunity vs. SR, so a toss-up depending on whether you fight more undead or more high-SR monsters like outsiders), and while a non-pumped EB isn't going to win any damage output contests anytime soon, it's still a nice fall-back for a character who, say, wants to focus more resources into skillmonkeying than combat, or who has especially limited daily resources (*coughcoughSHADOWCASTERcough*), or anything like that.
My first thought was using it for Rogues. It's a very good match thematically for a power hungry character (and it fits Hiei *_*), specially if you're a necropolitan. If you sell your soul, you can get the two feats. Basically, as soon as you have the XP to become a necropolitan and perform the rituals, you can do this fairly easily. So you get
a) a short range touch attack that deals somewhat good damage, plus your sneak attack damage;
b) a free way to heal yourself fairly quick (it heals the same as Rogue hit dice, even)
c) you are now officially awesome, because you kill people with black flames of awesomeness


The more I think about this, actually, the more I like it on a Shadowcaster. If my current character dies, I may ask my GM to file off the serial numbers and let me take it on a Shadowcaster. This is exactly the kind of at-will fall-back they need to stay, well, not horribly useless for more than three or four rounds a day.
I keep thinking I should try playing a shadowcaster one of these days...


Cool find, my friend.
Thanks ^^

[Tvtyrant]

It also has the advantage of making your SA negative energy as well, so almost nothing is going to be resistant to it. You could easily be doing 20d6+9d6 negative energy damage, which is decent damage considering you can do it forever and heal yourself with it.

Shadowcaster would be cool, but you don't get to attach any extra damage to it.

[Cog]

If you're going the precision damage route, Scout 3 / Rogue X wouldn't hurt either. More damage dice to stack on, and you don't have to worry about free movement since you're only making a standard action attack anyway. It gives you some bonus damage even when your invisibility/balance/flanking/whatever tricks don't pan out.

[Tvtyrant]

I just realized that artificial sources of HD would make this stronger; although the only one that I know off the top of my head is a Bard so that might not be a useful tactic.

Another option would be to put this on an Arcane Trickster Necropolitan to give you an endless supply of rays on top of your real spells. It does better damage then the typical Arcane Fire ability.

[Cog]

Well, there's Dusk Giant.

Why do I suddenly feel dirty?

[true_shinken]

Well, there's Dusk Giant.

Why do I suddenly feel dirty?

You know what's evil? An NPC dusk giant using back flames to pwn everyone.
Then the players get not that much xp, they complain... and you say it's a ritual so there's no CR adjustment. :smallamused:
Then you find a new group.

[Cog]

The Cannibalism attack does change actual HD, so it brings up the CR. The reason it's a trick for PCs is that they can get the HD without needing to actually solve level-appropriate encounters.

[true_shinken]

The Cannibalism attack does change actual HD, so it brings up the CR. The reason it's a trick for PCs is that they can get the HD without needing to actually solve level-appropriate encounters.

Yes, but it increases CR very slowly, specially because it does not increase damage.

[Curmudgeon]

I just noticed something very interesting. There are three rituals for Cyric worshippers in the book. One gives an unnamed bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Handle Animal as well as immunity to zone of truth or similar spells below 5th level. It costs 2 Constitution points that can't be healed. So, whatever, be a necropoliton.

The cost of this ritual is 2 points of Constitution, since the magical process causes great pain and trauma to the body.
If you can't pay the cost, you can't complete the ritual. So, whatever, you fail. :smalltongue:

[Alleran]

If you can't pay the cost, you can't complete the ritual. So, whatever, you fail. :smalltongue:
So take the ritual first, then make the switch to a Necropolitan.

[true_shinken]

If you can't pay the cost, you can't complete the ritual. So, whatever, you fail. :smalltongue:
Since the text specifically mentions it's because of pain and trauma, and since the actual given cost to the ritual is given seperately, I'd disagree.

[Aspenor]

I like the Church of Shar's Ritual of Shadow Walking (p. 125). Pay 500 gp and 2,000 xp and slap that sucker on a Shadow Pounce build. Combine that one with Necropolitan and be king of awesome.

[Curmudgeon]

Since the text specifically mentions it's because of pain and trauma, and since the actual given cost to the ritual is given seperately, I'd disagree.
How is that in any way separate? It's in the same sentence, which I quoted.

Your attempt at getting things for "free" is akin to going into a store without money, and thinking they're going to let you walk out with something when you can't pay. You don't get the free merchandise, and you don't get a free ritual.

[true_shinken]

How is that in any way separate? It's in the same sentence, which I quoted.

Your attempt at getting things for "free" is akin to going into a store without money, and thinking they're going to let you walk out with something when you can't pay. You don't get the free merchandise, and you don't get a free ritual.

Well, this is a very pointless discussion since as Alleran already mentioned, you could just perform the ritual then become a nectropolitan.
But I just checked and I misremembered the ritual costs, I thought it was some gold and xp (like the others) plus the Con loss as a side-effect.
So you're correct, a necropolitan couldn't perform it, but Alleran is also correct, meaning I am correct as well. :smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

So take the ritual first, then make the switch to a Necropolitan.
You could do that. You'll lose your last level, and any changes made during that last level (including any rituals) plus another 1,000 XP. So you'd need to wait at least another level before becoming a Necropolitan with your reduced CON score. So if you survive all of that, it's perfectly legitimate.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You could do that. You'll lose your last level, and any changes made during that last level (including any rituals) plus another 1,000 XP. So you'd need to wait at least another level before becoming a Necropolitan with your reduced CON score. So if you survive all of that, it's perfectly legitimate.

Do you have a rules quote about that? I mean yes, you would loose the level, feat and skill points; but I am not really sure the ritual count as that, since the ritual, by itself, is not a function of level.

[true_shinken]

You could do that. You'll lose your last level, and any changes made during that last level (including any rituals) plus another 1,000 XP. So you'd need to wait at least another level before becoming a Necropolitan with your reduced CON score. So if you survive all of that, it's perfectly legitimate.

What?!
That's like saying the village you saved is suddenly unsaved because you lost a level.

[Tvtyrant]

"Then the god of levels came and stripped my magic items from my hands and handed my a rusty sword whilst I wept"

Do not buy this line of argument.

[Curmudgeon]

OK, I misread that one. I'd thought the proviso in The Ritual of Honest Pain of restorative spells not functioning would kick in because the Ritual of Crucimigration functions like Raise Dead, but that's an indirect reference.

Sorry for the detour up the blind alley.

[Dusk Eclipse]

OK, I misread that one. I'd thought the proviso in The Ritual of Honest Pain of restorative spells not functioning would kick in because the Ritual of Crucimigration functions like Raise Dead, but that's an indirect reference.

Sorry for the detour up the blind alley.

No worries, we all make mistakes :smallsmile:

[true_shinken]

OK, I misread that one. I'd thought the proviso in The Ritual of Honest Pain of restorative spells not functioning would kick in because the Ritual of Crucimigration functions like Raise Dead, but that's an indirect reference.

Sorry for the detour up the blind alley.

Nevermind, you're right most of the time anyway.

Also, I think that proviso is just a remainder. You don't take Constitution damage in the ritual, you lose Constitution. I believe that's different, though I might be wrong.

[Greymane]

This thread inspired me to order the book off Amazon. The price sure was right. Now I can use Hiei with the Kuwabara Soulknife.

[true_shinken]

This thread inspired me to order the book off Amazon. The price sure was right. Now I can use Hiei with the Kuwabara Soulknife.

Damnit, now I think Yusuke is a Monk with that Ki Blast feat. Poor, poor Yusuke.