T.G. Oskar
2011-04-25, 07:13 PM
Since the discussion has gone for far too long, I decided to make a splinter thread before giving my answer, so that the main discussion on the "Optimizing a Core Monk" thread completely derails. Here are the quotes related to the discussion as far as I can manage it. Relevant pieces are bolded, but the rest of the quotes are worthy of discussion:
Paladin and Fighter are both Tier 5. Tier 5s can generally only do one thing and not much else. For both Fighters and Paladins, this is generally bashing things in the face. A Paladin can also cast healing spells, but they do not get enough of them to really serve in that capacity.
Compare them to Rangers, a classic Tier 4. Rangers are semi-skill monkeys as well as front-line combatants. While not quite as good at fighting as either Paladins or Fighters, their skills, spells and animal companions make up for their shortcomings. Even Barbarians, another Tier 4 class, have more skills (and thus more uses) than Paladins or Fighters.
Paladins get the spells and the companion (in the form of their mount), but both of those really only aid them in bashing things in the face harder.
Huh. I always thought of Rangers as being T5 as well. They seem much closer to the Paladin and the Fighter than to the Rogue and the Barbarian, in my mind, since they have skill points, BAB, and pretty much jack-all else. Looking around, though, I can see that I'm in the minority there, so I'm not going to argue the point. Just kind of an interesting observation.
Interestingly, both of the times I've entered the Iron Chef Optimization Contest, a single dip in Ranger has been instrumental to my builds working, but that's more because the class has a nice chassis (full BAB, 6 + INT skill points, and 2 good saves? I'll take it) than because I actually like Rangers. Then again, I really dislike Rangers because I've never been certain what archetype they're trying to fill in a fluff sense. Naturey guy who fights with two swords, is really racist, has a weak pet, and has a little bit of not-exactly-amazing magic? What? I understand the "old man of the woods" or "grizzled hunter/tracker" archetype, but the bizarre two-weapon focus (yes, I know archer rangers exist, but you can't downplay the two-weapon ones) and presence of weak magic really throw me off. I'm only too happy to divorce classes from their default fluff, but since I don't like the Ranger's mechanics either . . . not my favorite class. Strictly my opinion, of course.
They are close. Rangers are somewhat low in Tier 4 (the Barbarian is almost as efficient in his one thing as it is possible to be and not that far behind the Ranger when it comes to skills, and the Rogue is far more versatile, with options for practically everything), whereas both the Fighter and the Paladin are very high in Tier 5. It doesn't take much to push either one to Tier 4 (the Dungeoncrasher Fighter is Tier 4, for instance).
I'm not convinced of Rangers being Tier 4 — and if they are, I find it hard to put Paladins in Tier 5. The two are quite similar, and overall I think the Paladin gets better features. Favored Enemy is a waste of time, the bonus feats the Paladin gets are both for decidedly sub-optimal fighting styles, and Divine Grace seems better than... pretty much anything the Ranger gets until level 17. I haven't done a thorough comparison of Mount and Animal Companion, or of their spell lists, which obviously influences this a lot, but... I'm skeptical.
Mount and Ranger AC are about the same (both pretty weak far as anything combat goes, but serve as scouts, flankers and obviously mounts; Ranger has better flying options tho).
Ranger's biggest advantages are obviously the massive skills they get which allows them to do a whole lot more than Paladins ever will. Getting the free archery tree (it's actually quite good; not as a focus, but as an option) is also quite solid; saves you a feat in PBS to get Rapid Shot straight and the other two are nice extras, if nothing major. Ranger still makes for a solid two-hander mounted charger.
Ranger spells are also somewhat better; the expanded Ranger list with PHBII actually makes Ranger TWF (or THF) and Archery both quite impressive while the Paladin List expansion is far less focused, though it does contain few good charger spells. Ranger-list is by and large stronger tho (in Core, they're both heavily mediocre).
Overall, Ranger is just better rounded. Lesser MAD (basically needs 1 less attribute though they prefer high Dex so this isn't as big an advantage as it could be), awesome skills (for mundane types, skills are actually huge and the difference between 6+Int and 2+Int is massive), few free feats (Paladins are woefully featstarved, especially if going charger; they get literally nothing else) and a more versatile spell list. Overall, Rangers are just plain more equipped to handle a wider variety of scenarios than Paladins, which is approximately what the tier rankings try to measure.
Remember the difference between a high tier 5 and a low tier 4 will be relatively small. Less than a stock tier 4 compared to a tier 5 probably. It is basically a question of versatility and rangers have that over paladins and fighters which all have similar offensive profiles in quality. Though personally I think it is unfair to separate the fighter class like that. The only other classes that have their stuff separated are things that are only online (as in the content that causes the change) and one from unearthed arcana. I mean should we split up the barbarian based on a class feature that gives pounce? I mean outside of that and two skill points it is about equal to a fighter.
This is where I disagree. Paladin has quite the spell list for combat buffing, even though it lacks Ranger's utility spells (though it gets a lot more healing spells).
Surge of Fortune, Rhino Rush and Holy Sword are strong contenders.
Paladin is also stronger on the defensive side, with his aforementioned healing abilities and better saves. The paladin is also good with social skills due to class focus on Charisma.
I have no doubt a core-only Paladin is t5, but with all books allowed (or simply PHB2+Completes+Spell Compendium) I think they catch up to t4 quite easily.
It's a charger (quite good at one thing - dealing damage), with a few utility (healing, an extra flanker, social skills).
Actually, and keeping on the tangent (this could make for a wonderful splinter discussion, in fact), the Paladin spell list is pretty good, and can give the Ranger's spell list a run for their money.
At level 1, they get Magic Weapon (not long before Clerics get Greater Magic Weapon, but it helps if they need to enchant any other weapon in their disposal), Divine Favor (a small, yet reasonable boost to attack and damage which works well with charging or crit-fishing), Protection from Evil (formidable anti-Enchantment spell, not to mention a spell that provides a decent deflection AC and resistance bonus to saves), and Lesser Restoration (a bit later than a Cleric, but it allows for cheap ability damage restoration if using Wands for it). Bless Weapon, their only unique spell at that level, works very nice for DR bypassing and it also has a decent critical rider effect.
At level 2, they get three boosts to scores before the Cleric gets the Mass version of them, plus Resist Energy (always a nice spell to have) and Shield Other (classic defensive skill). That's more than half the spells in that level.
At level 3, they get a decent group of spells in Magic Circle against (Chaos/Evil), Dispel Magic (although I admit too late when the Cleric and Wizard already get their Greater version), Greater Magic Weapon (perfect for cheap enhancements to your weapons), and Heal Mount (for your mount, obviously). Prayer is gained a bit too late, but since by the moment you cast it the Cleric probably has gone with other bonuses, it provides a reasonable boost.
At level 4 you get some of the best Paladin spells around. Holy Sword is nothing to chafe at, as making a +5 Holy weapon out of anything while ALSO providing a Magic Circle effect for free definitely works well for 14th-15th level. Death Ward is a phenomenal protective spell, while Break Enchantment is a decent spell for whenever you need to break curses and whatnot. Dispel Evil won't be as strong as a Cleric's will, but it's a very nice utility spell to have (works like Shield of Faith, Break Enchantment and Dismissal with one spell), and Restoration also provides a very good method of healing ability damage.
Also, don't forget what you can do with wands. Paladins can cast from wands at 1st level, so they can work well with a wand of CLW if there's no Cleric at hand, they can create and work with cheaper wands of Lesser Restoration, and they can work with most of the wands and scrolls of specialized healing magic (Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Fear, Neutralize Poison, etc.)
Compare to Ranger, which has:
At first level, Rangers get Resist Energy (very early on, a definite plus against Pallies), Summon Nature's Ally I (in case they need another scout or a temporary flanker), Longstrider (for decent movement, but by that moment the Wizard gets Haste so it's much like Paladins with Greater Magic Weapon), and probably Entangle (to set up a trap).
At 2nd level, Cat's Grace and Barkskin are probably the best spells at the level. Resist Energy is much better than Protection from Energy, and Wind Wall is formidable but it cramps archery-style Rangers. Bear's Endurance seems a bit lost on a class that will have Constitution as a secondary or tertiary score (after Strength and Dex), SNA II at least allows you to work with a hippogriff, and the trap spells require a high Wisdom to work out.
At 3rd level, they get very few useful spells IMO. Command Plants is nice if you're on a forest but not much if you're on a place lacking vegetation, Greater Magic Fang only works if you have a dependable animal companion (which you don't, unlike the Paladin's mount), and probably Plant Growth to set up a barricade or provide extra vegetation for other spells.
4th level has Summon Nature's Ally IV, which means only one thing: Rangers can summon Unicorns, thus allowing for the best healing around. Also, Freedom of Movement which makes you invulnerable to just about any trap around, and probably Animal Growth if you have a Druid pal, two animal companions and a lot of summoned animals around; else, it's a bit wasted.
In comparison, the Paladin and the Ranger aren't so different (in Core) from each other, but while the Ranger has some shining spells early on (Barkskin, Resist Energy, Summon Nature's Ally), the Paladin has more complex spells later on (Dispel Evil, Holy Sword, Magic Circle against X, Mark of Justice). So I would say the core Paladin edges a bit the core Ranger in terms of spellcasting, but what makes it higher in terms of tier is the access to skills and feats.
I mean, consider the following: the Paladin has only a few skills, is extremely feat-starved, and generally gets everything in the first five levels; it also gets a special move it can use daily, and after 6th level the mount progresses faster. Meanwhile, the Ranger has useful skills (Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival), less strain with feats (because of the combat styles), useful late-level class features (Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight allow usefulness of the Hide skill at later levels, which with Darkstalker and a huge Hide skill bonus means you can fight from out of sight) and an iconic class feature that remains active pretty much at all times, but it's much more limited (Paladins get bonuses against Evil creatures, Rangers can add bonuses to a small amount of creatures). In THAT regard, the Ranger edges over the Paladin, but in spellcasting the Paladin edges the Ranger. Of course, OUTSIDE of Core you get stuff like Hunter's Sense and Swift Haste vs. Righteous Aura, which allow them to diversify a bit more in that regard.
Pally suffers socially unless he invests in good Int tho; 10 Int Pally probably wants to spend ½ of his points on Ride making him kinda short on points to invest in Diplo/K: Reg/K: Everything Else/Sense Motive (ok, seriously, what Pally doesn't have max Sense Motive? One of my biggest gripes with the 3.X skill system)/etc. Charisma only gets you so far, after all.
Even 20 base with all level-ups in one score gets you Charisma that's ½ of what ranks buy you by the end, and on level 1 18 Cha = the amount of bonus you get from the ranks. Sufficient to say, ranks tend to be the primary source of skill bonuses, though of course optimally you synergise the ranks with your high stats for truly impressive skill modifiers.
And yeah, the Paladin has a handful of good charger spells but they're a bit starved with anything else Charging-related (feats, Pounce, etc.). Ranger gets some good Charger-spells complete with Lion's Charge.
PHB2 + Completes + SC Pally gets some really good 4th level spells (though so does Ranger; Foebane suddenly makes Favored Enemy more than just a silly mechanic, and there's some forms of teleportation, stealth and some Polymorph-style buffs), but Ranger really gets the meat already before then. Though Surge of Fortune is Cleric-only...?
Quick list of solid Ranger combat spells off the top of my head:
Level 1
Arrow Mind
Blades of Fire
Guided Shot
Hawkeye
Hunter's Mercy
Rhino's Rush
(Sniper's Shot)
Level 2
Fell the Greatest Foe
Hunter's Eye
Lion's Charge
Swift Haste
Level 3
Arrow Storm
Blade Thirst
Find the Gap
And then a ton of spells for stealth (Camouflage, Land Womb, Remove Scent, etc.), detection (Crown of Clarity, Embrace the Wilds, Listening Lorecall, all that) and general utility. Pally, by comparison, has few handy buffs (Benediction is really good; Divine Favor suffers of Pally's poor caster level something severe), few Cleric Redux spells and some silly offensive spells he can't use efficiently due to low casting stat, late acquisition of the spell and low caster level.
The Pally list isn't useless but I feel it's way less versatile than the Ranger-list, and is mostly subsumed by the Cleric-list (tons of Zone of Truth- and Alignment-style spells that unfortunately usually have to pass checks and saves to do anything) whereas Ranger-list has lots of unique (aside from Archivist) spells that give them a solid edge in combat and the wilderness alike.
Good point. Int 10 plus human (the 'standard' paladin race since, like, ever) gets you enough for max Ride, Sense Motive and Diplomacy. You're still missing on a few concept skills. But as you mentioned, that's more of a problem with the 3.5 skill system than with the Paladin. Even a Rogue craves for skill points.
Even as a one-hit wonder, the Paladin does respectable damage.
Rhino Rush -> double damage. Find the Gap -> target touch AC.
With Battle Blessing, Find the Gap is a swift action spell that lasts 1 round/level.
So first round is a Spirited Charge with Find the Gap, full Power Attack. That's triple weapon damage, plus six times your level. If it lives, use Rhino Rush. Now that's four times normal weapon damage, plus four times your level. And you end your turn away from your target with Ride-By Attack, preventing full-attacks and the like.
[QUOTE=Eldariel;10854851Though Surge of Fortune is Cleric-only...?
Is it? I could swear it was a Paladin spell.
Quick list of solid Ranger combat spells off the top of my head:
I think some of those are not that solid. I'll comment on each.
Level 1
Blades of Fire
Only if you are Mystic Ranger and get it from level 1. At level 4, using a swift action for this damage sounds kind of weak.
Hunter's Eye
This is an awesome spell for Unseen Seers, but Rangers, with their crappy caster level, can't get much out of it.
Blade Thirst
A poor man's Holy Sword and nothing more.
And then a ton of spells for stealth (Camouflage, Land Womb, Remove Scent, etc.), detection (Crown of Clarity, Embrace the Wilds, Listening Lorecall, all that) and general utility. Pally, by comparison, has few handy buffs (Benediction is really good; Divine Favor suffers of Pally's poor caster level something severe), few Cleric Redux spells and some silly offensive spells he can't use efficiently due to low casting stat, late acquisition of the spell and low caster level.
Agreed.
The Pally list isn't useless but I feel it's way less versatile than the Ranger-list, and is mostly subsumed by the Cleric-list (tons of Zone of Truth- and Alignment-style spells that unfortunately usually have to pass checks and saves to do anything) whereas Ranger-list has lots of unique (aside from Archivist) spells that give them a solid edge in combat and the wilderness alike.
Agreed as well.[/QUOTE]
Note: the last exchange between shinken and Eldariel is placed bit by bit so as to prevent most confusion.
I'll continue answering from here:
For starters, Hunter's Eye isn't from the SC, it's from Player's Handbook II, in case people start looking for them.
Second, Ranger spells are to an extent Druid-redux as much as some of the Paladin spells are Cleric-redux. A great deal of the Ranger spells come from Druids, to be precise. For example: Camouflage, Hawkeye, Listening Lorecall, Land Womb, Crown of Clarity (also a PHB II spell). Also, some spells are shared by both Paladins and Rangers: Fell the Greatest Foe and Rhino's Rush, for example.
Third, consider that Spell Compendium reunites all of the first four Complete X spells (leaving outside C. Mage, C. Scoundrel and C. Champion), so you're basically dealing with PHB and SC. Working around those guidelines, Paladins get (including spells they share with Clerics and Rangers):
Level 1
Deafening Clang: Although it lasts for only one round, you can deal sonic damage which is rarely resisted.
Energized Shield, Lesser: Mostly half of what you get with Resist Energy at early levels, but the advantage is that you can deal extra damage with your shield. Might not seem much to the ubercharger, but it's extra damage to the shield-user (with Active Shield Defense, of course)
Resurgence: The only thing that kills it is the lack of slots a Paladin gets, but as a wand it's magnificent. Load up as many save enhancers on the character, and then allow another save. That can take any enemy out of the encounter, and with BB you can do it with a moment's thought
Vision of Glory: the definite best trait of the Paladin, as a spell, but only for ONE saving throw. And it's based on the Paladin's Charisma modifier, not theirs.
Warning Shout: At the very moment you roll for initiative, use it. It has a dual purpose; cancels flat-footed, and also awakens naturally sleeping creatures. Oddly enough, it's a Paladin-only spell, something I find Rangers could have used as well.
2nd level:
Divine Insight: a Cleric spell, oddly enough NOT a Paladin spell.
Energized Shield: improved version of Lesser Energized Shield. Again, better for shield users, since you deal a bit more damage alongside Active Shield Defense.
Fell the Greatest Foe: If it's good for Rangers, why not for Paladins?
Flame of Faith: Alright, so flame is easily resisted. However, it has three benefits: one, it works like Magic Weapon (so you get free magical weapons); second, it can be wanded; third, it's flaming burst, not flaming alone, so if you wield something like a lance or longspear and you crit, that's quite a bit of damage. But again: fire is easily resisted.
Knight's Move: perfect for setting flanks. Best as a wand or scroll, tho.
Shield of Warding: sacred bonuses are scarce, so getting one that adds both to AC and to Reflex is nice. The only thing that kills it is, of course, the lousy CL that Paladins get. But of course, Rangers get the same lousy CL...
I'd dare say Strength of Stone, but it works mostly on trippers; if you manage to get a glaive, Improved Trip, Stand Still and Karmic/Robilar's, you can use this feat to ensure extra damage and better trip chances.
3rd Level:
Axiomatic/Holy Storm: odd to choose these two, but both offer no saving throw, no SR, and it's nice for damage over time. Of course, you want to end up battles quickly, but if you're a tripper or you have a tripper friend, each round they stay there means they get greater damage. Axiomatic Strike can do up to 9d6 points of damage per turn if you're facing demons or slaadi, as well.
Find the Gap: again, if it's good for Rangers, why not for Paladins? Considering uberchargers usually get one attack, making it a touch attack definitely allows the Pally to strike his mark.
Righteous Fury: since the Paladin gets full BAB, this is as close as Divine Power as you'll get. Only 2 points less Strength, but it's sacred bonus so it stacks with other Strength bonuses, AND you get 5 times the number of temporary hit points. Nice for both slots and wands.
Resurgence, Mass: same as Resurgence, but with multiple targets
Word of Binding: Yes, we've agreed that the Paladin's saving throw DC sucks (for this spell, 15 at most). But it attacks Reflex, so it's one of the few spells that might affect both spellcasters and melee characters. The effect will be tougher on melee characters, whose Reflex is usually poor (no Reflex bonus, poor Dex, and what really saves them is cloaks of resistance). If they get bound, they can barely move and can't use their hands. Remember that an Owl's Wisdom spell cast on them adds a +2 to their save DC, and there are a few ways to increase save DC as well.
4th level:
Draconic Might: Bull's Strength + Bear's Endurance + Eagle's Splendor + Barkskin + immunities
Favor of the Martyr: immunity to non-lethal damage, charms, compulsions, daze, exhaustion, fatigue, nausea, sickening, staggered, stunned, act like if you had both Endurance and Diehard for the spell's duration (but without losing HP). Quite probably one of the best endurance spells besides the Beastland Ferocity/Delay Death combo.
Lawful Sword: as Holy Sword, but against chaotic creatures.
Revenance: this is odd; a spell that does temporary resurrection to an ally.
Righteous Aura: the +4 sacred bonus to Charisma is very nice, but it really works if you die. If you do, you do on style, because you deal huge damage to the enemy (Reflex half, sure) AND heal your allies for about 20d6 points of damage.
Sacred Haven: +2 sacred bonus to AC (remember it's hard to get?), uncanny dodge, status and lay on hands at a distance. Also a Paladin-only spell.
That's going with spells that benefit yourself or allies; I haven't touched the mount AT ALL.
Now, one thing I CAN agree with is the focus between Paladin spells and Ranger spells. What Rangers have that Paladins don't is the number of spells that work outside of combat; that's just as much as the Druid works, since they also get loads of spells to work outside of combat. The Paladin, on the other hand, works by buffing allies inside of combat, or at the very best buff himself with his spells. What makes the Ranger a low tier 4 and a Paladin a low tier 5 is actually the utility of Ranger spells vs. the specialization of Paladin spells; however, inside of battle, the Ranger is usually best left to buff himself, while the Paladin can buff himself, his mount, and even his allies if the spell slots allow it (and because both classes' spells are below level 4, virtually ALL of their spells can be wanded). So, no: Paladin spells don't allow them to raise a single tier because their utility is limited to inside battle, unlike Rangers who can collaborate outside of battle. However, when you compare the strength of the spells in-battle (which is the main focus of D&D), the Paladin spell list is quite strong.
So, having said that; can we keep the conversation in here? Please?
Paladin and Fighter are both Tier 5. Tier 5s can generally only do one thing and not much else. For both Fighters and Paladins, this is generally bashing things in the face. A Paladin can also cast healing spells, but they do not get enough of them to really serve in that capacity.
Compare them to Rangers, a classic Tier 4. Rangers are semi-skill monkeys as well as front-line combatants. While not quite as good at fighting as either Paladins or Fighters, their skills, spells and animal companions make up for their shortcomings. Even Barbarians, another Tier 4 class, have more skills (and thus more uses) than Paladins or Fighters.
Paladins get the spells and the companion (in the form of their mount), but both of those really only aid them in bashing things in the face harder.
Huh. I always thought of Rangers as being T5 as well. They seem much closer to the Paladin and the Fighter than to the Rogue and the Barbarian, in my mind, since they have skill points, BAB, and pretty much jack-all else. Looking around, though, I can see that I'm in the minority there, so I'm not going to argue the point. Just kind of an interesting observation.
Interestingly, both of the times I've entered the Iron Chef Optimization Contest, a single dip in Ranger has been instrumental to my builds working, but that's more because the class has a nice chassis (full BAB, 6 + INT skill points, and 2 good saves? I'll take it) than because I actually like Rangers. Then again, I really dislike Rangers because I've never been certain what archetype they're trying to fill in a fluff sense. Naturey guy who fights with two swords, is really racist, has a weak pet, and has a little bit of not-exactly-amazing magic? What? I understand the "old man of the woods" or "grizzled hunter/tracker" archetype, but the bizarre two-weapon focus (yes, I know archer rangers exist, but you can't downplay the two-weapon ones) and presence of weak magic really throw me off. I'm only too happy to divorce classes from their default fluff, but since I don't like the Ranger's mechanics either . . . not my favorite class. Strictly my opinion, of course.
They are close. Rangers are somewhat low in Tier 4 (the Barbarian is almost as efficient in his one thing as it is possible to be and not that far behind the Ranger when it comes to skills, and the Rogue is far more versatile, with options for practically everything), whereas both the Fighter and the Paladin are very high in Tier 5. It doesn't take much to push either one to Tier 4 (the Dungeoncrasher Fighter is Tier 4, for instance).
I'm not convinced of Rangers being Tier 4 — and if they are, I find it hard to put Paladins in Tier 5. The two are quite similar, and overall I think the Paladin gets better features. Favored Enemy is a waste of time, the bonus feats the Paladin gets are both for decidedly sub-optimal fighting styles, and Divine Grace seems better than... pretty much anything the Ranger gets until level 17. I haven't done a thorough comparison of Mount and Animal Companion, or of their spell lists, which obviously influences this a lot, but... I'm skeptical.
Mount and Ranger AC are about the same (both pretty weak far as anything combat goes, but serve as scouts, flankers and obviously mounts; Ranger has better flying options tho).
Ranger's biggest advantages are obviously the massive skills they get which allows them to do a whole lot more than Paladins ever will. Getting the free archery tree (it's actually quite good; not as a focus, but as an option) is also quite solid; saves you a feat in PBS to get Rapid Shot straight and the other two are nice extras, if nothing major. Ranger still makes for a solid two-hander mounted charger.
Ranger spells are also somewhat better; the expanded Ranger list with PHBII actually makes Ranger TWF (or THF) and Archery both quite impressive while the Paladin List expansion is far less focused, though it does contain few good charger spells. Ranger-list is by and large stronger tho (in Core, they're both heavily mediocre).
Overall, Ranger is just better rounded. Lesser MAD (basically needs 1 less attribute though they prefer high Dex so this isn't as big an advantage as it could be), awesome skills (for mundane types, skills are actually huge and the difference between 6+Int and 2+Int is massive), few free feats (Paladins are woefully featstarved, especially if going charger; they get literally nothing else) and a more versatile spell list. Overall, Rangers are just plain more equipped to handle a wider variety of scenarios than Paladins, which is approximately what the tier rankings try to measure.
Remember the difference between a high tier 5 and a low tier 4 will be relatively small. Less than a stock tier 4 compared to a tier 5 probably. It is basically a question of versatility and rangers have that over paladins and fighters which all have similar offensive profiles in quality. Though personally I think it is unfair to separate the fighter class like that. The only other classes that have their stuff separated are things that are only online (as in the content that causes the change) and one from unearthed arcana. I mean should we split up the barbarian based on a class feature that gives pounce? I mean outside of that and two skill points it is about equal to a fighter.
This is where I disagree. Paladin has quite the spell list for combat buffing, even though it lacks Ranger's utility spells (though it gets a lot more healing spells).
Surge of Fortune, Rhino Rush and Holy Sword are strong contenders.
Paladin is also stronger on the defensive side, with his aforementioned healing abilities and better saves. The paladin is also good with social skills due to class focus on Charisma.
I have no doubt a core-only Paladin is t5, but with all books allowed (or simply PHB2+Completes+Spell Compendium) I think they catch up to t4 quite easily.
It's a charger (quite good at one thing - dealing damage), with a few utility (healing, an extra flanker, social skills).
Actually, and keeping on the tangent (this could make for a wonderful splinter discussion, in fact), the Paladin spell list is pretty good, and can give the Ranger's spell list a run for their money.
At level 1, they get Magic Weapon (not long before Clerics get Greater Magic Weapon, but it helps if they need to enchant any other weapon in their disposal), Divine Favor (a small, yet reasonable boost to attack and damage which works well with charging or crit-fishing), Protection from Evil (formidable anti-Enchantment spell, not to mention a spell that provides a decent deflection AC and resistance bonus to saves), and Lesser Restoration (a bit later than a Cleric, but it allows for cheap ability damage restoration if using Wands for it). Bless Weapon, their only unique spell at that level, works very nice for DR bypassing and it also has a decent critical rider effect.
At level 2, they get three boosts to scores before the Cleric gets the Mass version of them, plus Resist Energy (always a nice spell to have) and Shield Other (classic defensive skill). That's more than half the spells in that level.
At level 3, they get a decent group of spells in Magic Circle against (Chaos/Evil), Dispel Magic (although I admit too late when the Cleric and Wizard already get their Greater version), Greater Magic Weapon (perfect for cheap enhancements to your weapons), and Heal Mount (for your mount, obviously). Prayer is gained a bit too late, but since by the moment you cast it the Cleric probably has gone with other bonuses, it provides a reasonable boost.
At level 4 you get some of the best Paladin spells around. Holy Sword is nothing to chafe at, as making a +5 Holy weapon out of anything while ALSO providing a Magic Circle effect for free definitely works well for 14th-15th level. Death Ward is a phenomenal protective spell, while Break Enchantment is a decent spell for whenever you need to break curses and whatnot. Dispel Evil won't be as strong as a Cleric's will, but it's a very nice utility spell to have (works like Shield of Faith, Break Enchantment and Dismissal with one spell), and Restoration also provides a very good method of healing ability damage.
Also, don't forget what you can do with wands. Paladins can cast from wands at 1st level, so they can work well with a wand of CLW if there's no Cleric at hand, they can create and work with cheaper wands of Lesser Restoration, and they can work with most of the wands and scrolls of specialized healing magic (Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Fear, Neutralize Poison, etc.)
Compare to Ranger, which has:
At first level, Rangers get Resist Energy (very early on, a definite plus against Pallies), Summon Nature's Ally I (in case they need another scout or a temporary flanker), Longstrider (for decent movement, but by that moment the Wizard gets Haste so it's much like Paladins with Greater Magic Weapon), and probably Entangle (to set up a trap).
At 2nd level, Cat's Grace and Barkskin are probably the best spells at the level. Resist Energy is much better than Protection from Energy, and Wind Wall is formidable but it cramps archery-style Rangers. Bear's Endurance seems a bit lost on a class that will have Constitution as a secondary or tertiary score (after Strength and Dex), SNA II at least allows you to work with a hippogriff, and the trap spells require a high Wisdom to work out.
At 3rd level, they get very few useful spells IMO. Command Plants is nice if you're on a forest but not much if you're on a place lacking vegetation, Greater Magic Fang only works if you have a dependable animal companion (which you don't, unlike the Paladin's mount), and probably Plant Growth to set up a barricade or provide extra vegetation for other spells.
4th level has Summon Nature's Ally IV, which means only one thing: Rangers can summon Unicorns, thus allowing for the best healing around. Also, Freedom of Movement which makes you invulnerable to just about any trap around, and probably Animal Growth if you have a Druid pal, two animal companions and a lot of summoned animals around; else, it's a bit wasted.
In comparison, the Paladin and the Ranger aren't so different (in Core) from each other, but while the Ranger has some shining spells early on (Barkskin, Resist Energy, Summon Nature's Ally), the Paladin has more complex spells later on (Dispel Evil, Holy Sword, Magic Circle against X, Mark of Justice). So I would say the core Paladin edges a bit the core Ranger in terms of spellcasting, but what makes it higher in terms of tier is the access to skills and feats.
I mean, consider the following: the Paladin has only a few skills, is extremely feat-starved, and generally gets everything in the first five levels; it also gets a special move it can use daily, and after 6th level the mount progresses faster. Meanwhile, the Ranger has useful skills (Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival), less strain with feats (because of the combat styles), useful late-level class features (Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight allow usefulness of the Hide skill at later levels, which with Darkstalker and a huge Hide skill bonus means you can fight from out of sight) and an iconic class feature that remains active pretty much at all times, but it's much more limited (Paladins get bonuses against Evil creatures, Rangers can add bonuses to a small amount of creatures). In THAT regard, the Ranger edges over the Paladin, but in spellcasting the Paladin edges the Ranger. Of course, OUTSIDE of Core you get stuff like Hunter's Sense and Swift Haste vs. Righteous Aura, which allow them to diversify a bit more in that regard.
Pally suffers socially unless he invests in good Int tho; 10 Int Pally probably wants to spend ½ of his points on Ride making him kinda short on points to invest in Diplo/K: Reg/K: Everything Else/Sense Motive (ok, seriously, what Pally doesn't have max Sense Motive? One of my biggest gripes with the 3.X skill system)/etc. Charisma only gets you so far, after all.
Even 20 base with all level-ups in one score gets you Charisma that's ½ of what ranks buy you by the end, and on level 1 18 Cha = the amount of bonus you get from the ranks. Sufficient to say, ranks tend to be the primary source of skill bonuses, though of course optimally you synergise the ranks with your high stats for truly impressive skill modifiers.
And yeah, the Paladin has a handful of good charger spells but they're a bit starved with anything else Charging-related (feats, Pounce, etc.). Ranger gets some good Charger-spells complete with Lion's Charge.
PHB2 + Completes + SC Pally gets some really good 4th level spells (though so does Ranger; Foebane suddenly makes Favored Enemy more than just a silly mechanic, and there's some forms of teleportation, stealth and some Polymorph-style buffs), but Ranger really gets the meat already before then. Though Surge of Fortune is Cleric-only...?
Quick list of solid Ranger combat spells off the top of my head:
Level 1
Arrow Mind
Blades of Fire
Guided Shot
Hawkeye
Hunter's Mercy
Rhino's Rush
(Sniper's Shot)
Level 2
Fell the Greatest Foe
Hunter's Eye
Lion's Charge
Swift Haste
Level 3
Arrow Storm
Blade Thirst
Find the Gap
And then a ton of spells for stealth (Camouflage, Land Womb, Remove Scent, etc.), detection (Crown of Clarity, Embrace the Wilds, Listening Lorecall, all that) and general utility. Pally, by comparison, has few handy buffs (Benediction is really good; Divine Favor suffers of Pally's poor caster level something severe), few Cleric Redux spells and some silly offensive spells he can't use efficiently due to low casting stat, late acquisition of the spell and low caster level.
The Pally list isn't useless but I feel it's way less versatile than the Ranger-list, and is mostly subsumed by the Cleric-list (tons of Zone of Truth- and Alignment-style spells that unfortunately usually have to pass checks and saves to do anything) whereas Ranger-list has lots of unique (aside from Archivist) spells that give them a solid edge in combat and the wilderness alike.
Good point. Int 10 plus human (the 'standard' paladin race since, like, ever) gets you enough for max Ride, Sense Motive and Diplomacy. You're still missing on a few concept skills. But as you mentioned, that's more of a problem with the 3.5 skill system than with the Paladin. Even a Rogue craves for skill points.
Even as a one-hit wonder, the Paladin does respectable damage.
Rhino Rush -> double damage. Find the Gap -> target touch AC.
With Battle Blessing, Find the Gap is a swift action spell that lasts 1 round/level.
So first round is a Spirited Charge with Find the Gap, full Power Attack. That's triple weapon damage, plus six times your level. If it lives, use Rhino Rush. Now that's four times normal weapon damage, plus four times your level. And you end your turn away from your target with Ride-By Attack, preventing full-attacks and the like.
[QUOTE=Eldariel;10854851Though Surge of Fortune is Cleric-only...?
Is it? I could swear it was a Paladin spell.
Quick list of solid Ranger combat spells off the top of my head:
I think some of those are not that solid. I'll comment on each.
Level 1
Blades of Fire
Only if you are Mystic Ranger and get it from level 1. At level 4, using a swift action for this damage sounds kind of weak.
Hunter's Eye
This is an awesome spell for Unseen Seers, but Rangers, with their crappy caster level, can't get much out of it.
Blade Thirst
A poor man's Holy Sword and nothing more.
And then a ton of spells for stealth (Camouflage, Land Womb, Remove Scent, etc.), detection (Crown of Clarity, Embrace the Wilds, Listening Lorecall, all that) and general utility. Pally, by comparison, has few handy buffs (Benediction is really good; Divine Favor suffers of Pally's poor caster level something severe), few Cleric Redux spells and some silly offensive spells he can't use efficiently due to low casting stat, late acquisition of the spell and low caster level.
Agreed.
The Pally list isn't useless but I feel it's way less versatile than the Ranger-list, and is mostly subsumed by the Cleric-list (tons of Zone of Truth- and Alignment-style spells that unfortunately usually have to pass checks and saves to do anything) whereas Ranger-list has lots of unique (aside from Archivist) spells that give them a solid edge in combat and the wilderness alike.
Agreed as well.[/QUOTE]
Note: the last exchange between shinken and Eldariel is placed bit by bit so as to prevent most confusion.
I'll continue answering from here:
For starters, Hunter's Eye isn't from the SC, it's from Player's Handbook II, in case people start looking for them.
Second, Ranger spells are to an extent Druid-redux as much as some of the Paladin spells are Cleric-redux. A great deal of the Ranger spells come from Druids, to be precise. For example: Camouflage, Hawkeye, Listening Lorecall, Land Womb, Crown of Clarity (also a PHB II spell). Also, some spells are shared by both Paladins and Rangers: Fell the Greatest Foe and Rhino's Rush, for example.
Third, consider that Spell Compendium reunites all of the first four Complete X spells (leaving outside C. Mage, C. Scoundrel and C. Champion), so you're basically dealing with PHB and SC. Working around those guidelines, Paladins get (including spells they share with Clerics and Rangers):
Level 1
Deafening Clang: Although it lasts for only one round, you can deal sonic damage which is rarely resisted.
Energized Shield, Lesser: Mostly half of what you get with Resist Energy at early levels, but the advantage is that you can deal extra damage with your shield. Might not seem much to the ubercharger, but it's extra damage to the shield-user (with Active Shield Defense, of course)
Resurgence: The only thing that kills it is the lack of slots a Paladin gets, but as a wand it's magnificent. Load up as many save enhancers on the character, and then allow another save. That can take any enemy out of the encounter, and with BB you can do it with a moment's thought
Vision of Glory: the definite best trait of the Paladin, as a spell, but only for ONE saving throw. And it's based on the Paladin's Charisma modifier, not theirs.
Warning Shout: At the very moment you roll for initiative, use it. It has a dual purpose; cancels flat-footed, and also awakens naturally sleeping creatures. Oddly enough, it's a Paladin-only spell, something I find Rangers could have used as well.
2nd level:
Divine Insight: a Cleric spell, oddly enough NOT a Paladin spell.
Energized Shield: improved version of Lesser Energized Shield. Again, better for shield users, since you deal a bit more damage alongside Active Shield Defense.
Fell the Greatest Foe: If it's good for Rangers, why not for Paladins?
Flame of Faith: Alright, so flame is easily resisted. However, it has three benefits: one, it works like Magic Weapon (so you get free magical weapons); second, it can be wanded; third, it's flaming burst, not flaming alone, so if you wield something like a lance or longspear and you crit, that's quite a bit of damage. But again: fire is easily resisted.
Knight's Move: perfect for setting flanks. Best as a wand or scroll, tho.
Shield of Warding: sacred bonuses are scarce, so getting one that adds both to AC and to Reflex is nice. The only thing that kills it is, of course, the lousy CL that Paladins get. But of course, Rangers get the same lousy CL...
I'd dare say Strength of Stone, but it works mostly on trippers; if you manage to get a glaive, Improved Trip, Stand Still and Karmic/Robilar's, you can use this feat to ensure extra damage and better trip chances.
3rd Level:
Axiomatic/Holy Storm: odd to choose these two, but both offer no saving throw, no SR, and it's nice for damage over time. Of course, you want to end up battles quickly, but if you're a tripper or you have a tripper friend, each round they stay there means they get greater damage. Axiomatic Strike can do up to 9d6 points of damage per turn if you're facing demons or slaadi, as well.
Find the Gap: again, if it's good for Rangers, why not for Paladins? Considering uberchargers usually get one attack, making it a touch attack definitely allows the Pally to strike his mark.
Righteous Fury: since the Paladin gets full BAB, this is as close as Divine Power as you'll get. Only 2 points less Strength, but it's sacred bonus so it stacks with other Strength bonuses, AND you get 5 times the number of temporary hit points. Nice for both slots and wands.
Resurgence, Mass: same as Resurgence, but with multiple targets
Word of Binding: Yes, we've agreed that the Paladin's saving throw DC sucks (for this spell, 15 at most). But it attacks Reflex, so it's one of the few spells that might affect both spellcasters and melee characters. The effect will be tougher on melee characters, whose Reflex is usually poor (no Reflex bonus, poor Dex, and what really saves them is cloaks of resistance). If they get bound, they can barely move and can't use their hands. Remember that an Owl's Wisdom spell cast on them adds a +2 to their save DC, and there are a few ways to increase save DC as well.
4th level:
Draconic Might: Bull's Strength + Bear's Endurance + Eagle's Splendor + Barkskin + immunities
Favor of the Martyr: immunity to non-lethal damage, charms, compulsions, daze, exhaustion, fatigue, nausea, sickening, staggered, stunned, act like if you had both Endurance and Diehard for the spell's duration (but without losing HP). Quite probably one of the best endurance spells besides the Beastland Ferocity/Delay Death combo.
Lawful Sword: as Holy Sword, but against chaotic creatures.
Revenance: this is odd; a spell that does temporary resurrection to an ally.
Righteous Aura: the +4 sacred bonus to Charisma is very nice, but it really works if you die. If you do, you do on style, because you deal huge damage to the enemy (Reflex half, sure) AND heal your allies for about 20d6 points of damage.
Sacred Haven: +2 sacred bonus to AC (remember it's hard to get?), uncanny dodge, status and lay on hands at a distance. Also a Paladin-only spell.
That's going with spells that benefit yourself or allies; I haven't touched the mount AT ALL.
Now, one thing I CAN agree with is the focus between Paladin spells and Ranger spells. What Rangers have that Paladins don't is the number of spells that work outside of combat; that's just as much as the Druid works, since they also get loads of spells to work outside of combat. The Paladin, on the other hand, works by buffing allies inside of combat, or at the very best buff himself with his spells. What makes the Ranger a low tier 4 and a Paladin a low tier 5 is actually the utility of Ranger spells vs. the specialization of Paladin spells; however, inside of battle, the Ranger is usually best left to buff himself, while the Paladin can buff himself, his mount, and even his allies if the spell slots allow it (and because both classes' spells are below level 4, virtually ALL of their spells can be wanded). So, no: Paladin spells don't allow them to raise a single tier because their utility is limited to inside battle, unlike Rangers who can collaborate outside of battle. However, when you compare the strength of the spells in-battle (which is the main focus of D&D), the Paladin spell list is quite strong.
So, having said that; can we keep the conversation in here? Please?