General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate

[Tavar]

Have a question about committed Essence? Want to discuss the Balorian Crusade? Infernals or Abyssals? What sort of build can throw Creation at some Shinma? Just how high can we get that Serenity's Appearence? This is your thread. Discuss with fervor.

Popular Homebrew/Fixes

Kyeudo's warstrider fix. (http://www.mediafire.com/?p17g342wgh8qnq9)
Extra Ox body techniques(or equivalent charm) equal to Stamina/Essence
Pete Schaefer on Lunar Character Generation (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Peter_Schaefer_on_Lunar_Character_ Generation)
Extra Excellencies. Generally, Solars/Abyssals get 5, Lunars get two, Sidereals 4, and Dragonblooded are 3, spread amoung caste and favored. Infernals get their caste Yozi's first Excellency free, including all future purchases of it.

Currently Recruiting Games:Princes of the Sky- Reboot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10849237#post10849237)
Transient Solar Ghosts Sought For Work. Call He Who Holds In Thrall a... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=10868247)

List of Previous Threads:
General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172007)
General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183998)
General Exalted Discussion III: Weddings Are An Act of Villainy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192237)

Useful Links:
Exalted Character Repository (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186758)




Reynard's Sheets:
Solar, Abyssal and Infernal SheetName:
Exalt Type and Caste:
Anima:

Motivation:

Urge [If Infernal]

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [C]aste and [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 28
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots, and Abilities can be raised to 5 without BP)

Archery
Martial Arts
Melee
Thrown
War

Integrity
Performance
Presence
Resistance
Survival

Craft
Investigate
Lore
Medicine
Occult

Athletics
Awareness
Dodge
Larceny
Stealth

Bureaucracy
Linguistics
Ride
Sail
Socialize
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms
Ability/Yozi
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) [(Permanent Essence x3)+Willpower]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Permanent Essence x7)+Willpower)+Sum of Virtues]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Lunar SheetName:
Caste:
Spirit Animal:
Anima:
Tell:

Motivation:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8 [9 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6 [7 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4 [5 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
[Note: Place [C]aste and [F]avoured tags, for clarity. Casteless do not get Caste abilities, obviously]
(Specializations +)

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 25 [28 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots)

Archery
Martial Arts
Melee
Thrown
War

Integrity
Performance
Presence
Resistance
[F]Survival

Craft
Investigate
Lore
Medicine
Occult

Athletics
Awareness
Dodge
Larceny
Stealth

Bureaucracy
Linguistics
Ride
Sail
Socialize
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms and Knacks
Attribute
Excellencies
[Charms]

Knacks:
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [Permanent Essence+(Willpower x2)]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(((Permanent Essence x4)+Willpower x2)+Highest Virtue x4]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Sidereal SheetName:
Exalt Type and Caste:
Anima:
Anima Power:

Motivation:

Faction:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [A]uspicious and [F]avoured (You get four) tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 35, with at least 15 in Auspicious and Favoured.
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots)
Caste Requirements:
The character must have at least Awareness ••, Bureaucracy ••, Linguistics (Old Realm) •, Lore •••, Martial Arts ••, Occult ••, Socialize •, Stealth • and at least one dot in Archery, Melee or Thrown. There are additional restrictions based on caste:

Chosen of Journeys must have Athletics ••, Linguistics (Old Realm and an appropriate additional language) ••, Resistance ••, Survival •• and Ride or Sail •••.

Chosen of Serenity must have either Craft or Performance ••, Linguistics •• (focusing on eloquent speaking and writing rather than languages), Medicine ••, Presence •• and Socialize •••.

Chosen of Battles must have Archery or Melee •••, Athletics ••, Dodge ••, Presence •• and War ••.

Chosen of Secrets must have Awareness ••, Investigation •••, Larceny ••, Socialize •• and Stealth ••.

Chosen of Endings must have Awareness ••, Dodge ••, Integrity ••, Martial Arts ••• and Stealth ••.
Journeys
Resistance:
Ride:
Sail:
Survival:
Thrown:

Serenity
Craft:
Dodge:
Linguistics:
Performance:
Socialize:

Battles
Archery:
Athletics:
Melee:
Presence:
War:

Secrets
Investigation:
Larceny:
Lore:
Occult:
Stealth:

Endings
Awareness:
Bureaucracy:
Integrity:
Martial Arts:
Medicine:
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:
Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]

Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms
Ability
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat: 9 +1 Sux

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3

Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Permanent Essence x2)+(Willpower)]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(((Permanent Essence x6)+Willpower 2)+Sum of all Virtues]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

[B]Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z

[Xefas]

We need someone to run a game with five players, who just take control of five Deathlords, they forsake absolutely all resources, connections, and authority aside from what is physically on their person at the time, and just form a Circle and go personally wipe out Creation by wandering around killing things and taking their stuff.

EDIT: For easy mode, you could even have it happen before the Great Contagion. Instead of "giant world-ending plague followed by fair folk crusade", the Deathlords ultimate evil scheme for ending the world could be "Become adventuring hobos".

[Turalisj]

That... wouldn't be fun. I don't like starting with such odds. And I don't really like the deathlords as they are :smallyuk:


We need someone to run an Alchemical game set in Autocthonia.

[Mr.Bookworm]

The Deathlords are Abyssals that start with 2500 XP and can naturally take Solar charms and Arcanoi, done and done.

Man, the more I think about this, the more I want to run/play it.

[tonberrian]

That dovetails nicely into an Abyssal character idea I had. He writes letters.

They kill people.

[Lochar]

That dovetails nicely into an Abyssal character idea I had. He writes letters.

They kill people.

The act of being in the room with an open letter causes your skin to bleed.

Hearing the letter read aloud can cause visceral blades of words to shred your body.

And the poor schmuck reading it? Held alive by the force of the letter, only to fall apart into dozens of pieces at he finishes.

[tonberrian]

The act of being in the room with an open letter causes your skin to bleed.

Hearing the letter read aloud can cause visceral blades of words to shred your body.

And the poor schmuck reading it? Held alive by the force of the letter, only to fall apart into dozens of pieces at he finishes.

I need charms for this now.

[SurlySeraph]

@^: You already have Killing Words Technique. The rest is stunting.


The Deathlords are Abyssals that start with 2500 XP and can naturally take Solar charms and Arcanoi, done and done.

Man, the more I think about this, the more I want to run/play it.

Can they take Spirit charms like normal ghosts can, too? Because at Essence 10, Principle of Motion + Flying Time Technique for yes I have that many extra actions, foolish mortal! would be hella fun.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Can they take Spirit charms like normal ghosts can, too? Because at Essence 10, Principle of Motion + Flying Time Technique for yes I have that many extra actions, foolish mortal! would be hella fun.

Extreme Principle of Motion abuse will be met with MoEP: Abyssals to the face. Really, that goes for everything. Everything that isn't funnier then not abusing the rules.

That said, sure why not.

If I ever run this game, which is looking increasingly likely the more I think about it. Gah. As long as potential players would be okay on a ST that isn't the most experienced with the rules.

[Xefas]

You'd really only need to run a few fights. I mean, what exactly is going to pose enough of a challenge that it merits carting out the full combat system? In Creation no less. The Sun? All the Lunars at once? The Five Immaculate Dragons voltroned together with an artifact duplicating the effects of Unity of the Closed Fist?

[tonberrian]

The Kukla and the Gardullis in a tag team match.

[Turalisj]

No. This needs... Fakuf.

[Xefas]

The Kukla and the Gardullis in a tag team match.

The Emerald Mother reveals that the Imperial Mountain is in fact her personal warstrider...

Coming up with challenges for the Circle of Deathlord Hobos is fun.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I've got about 24 serious encounters swimming in my head right now.

What exactly will make it in remains a mystery. A lot of it, though, things that actually threaten the circle, will have to be defeated by things other then punching it in the face, since doing that for an entire game gets boring.

There will be plenty of face-punching, though.

[Kris Strife]

The Ebon Dragon, Ma-Ha Suchi, Desus, Arkady and Peleps Deled Dickery Voltron suggested by Mr. Bookworm?

[Turalisj]

I've got about 24 serious encounters swimming in my head right now.

What exactly will make it in remains a mystery. A lot of it, though, things that actually threaten the circle, will have to be defeated by things other then punching it in the face, since doing that for an entire game gets boring.

There will be plenty of face-punching, though.

If you do this, I only request that someone make good rules for making a Collosi Alchemical so I can play a Void Lord.

[a_humble_lich]

Can they take Spirit charms like normal ghosts can, too? Because at Essence 10, Principle of Motion + Flying Time Technique for yes I have that many extra actions, foolish mortal! would be hella fun.

??? I thought ghosts were limited to only take Arcanoi. Although, I'm sure high powered ghosts like Deathlords could take Spirit charms, but as far as I know normal ghosts can't. They are supposed to be lesser creatures than mortals after all.

[Primal Fury]

The Deathlords are Abyssals that start with 2500 XP and can naturally take Solar charms and Arcanoi, done and done
Really? There are people who use Deathlords as is? You're better off going with some unique panoply charms. Surprisingly easy to make too. Though I am ashamed that the very first idea I got for the Lover Clad in Raiment of Tears was a charm that turned her hoo-hoo into a portal to Oblivion.

[Kyeudo]

??? I thought ghosts were limited to only take Arcanoi. Although, I'm sure high powered ghosts like Deathlords could take Spirit charms, but as far as I know normal ghosts can't. They are supposed to be lesser creatures than mortals after all.

Ghosts are classed as spirits and spirits can learn spirit Charms. Therefore, ghosts can learn spirit Charms.

Yes, it's horribly stupid, but that's what you get for putting a fourth class of being with different characteristics in with three classes of being that all work mostly the same.

[golentan]

Really? There are people who use Deathlords as is? You're better off going with some unique panoply charms. Surprisingly easy to make too. Though I am ashamed that the very first idea I got for the Lover Clad in Raiment of Tears was a charm that turned her hoo-hoo into a portal to Oblivion.

I thought that was canon. "The little death" indeed. :smalltongue:

[Primal Fury]

I thought that was canon.
It is canon, but it's also stupid. Why in the world do Deathlords have access to Solar and Abyssal charms? They have neither Solar, nor Abyssal exaltations, just a bunch of dead 3rd circle devas glued together.

[Turalisj]

I thought they were Solars from the 1st age who created the abyssals.

[Sanguine]

It is canon, but it's also stupid. Why in the world do Deathlords have access to Solar and Abyssal charms? They have neither Solar, nor Abyssal exaltations, just a bunch of dead 3rd circle devas glued together.

I believe he was referring to the part about the hoo-hoo. As for the Charms, apparently the Neverborn can give a Ghost back access to the Charms they knew in life. That doesn't explain the Abyssal Charms however. Also I prefer the panoply Charms idea myself, fits better with the whole merged with a 3rd Circle Deva thing in my mind.

[Xefas]

Though I am ashamed that the very first idea I got for the Lover Clad in Raiment of Tears was a charm that turned her hoo-hoo into a portal to Oblivion.

I thought that was canon.

It is canon.
Exalted canon has gone to a strange place in these last few years...

[Tavar]

That doesn't explain the Abyssal Charms however. Also I prefer the panoply Charms idea myself, fits better with the whole merged with a 3rd Circle Deva thing in my mind.

Plus, that way you can set them up so they can't just solo the setting, either in creation or the underworld.

[Primal Fury]

I believe he was referring to the part about the hoo-hoo.
Oh. Well that makes Xefas's quote ladder much more amusing. :smallbiggrin:

[a_humble_lich]

Ghosts are classed as spirits and spirits can learn spirit Charms. Therefore, ghosts can learn spirit Charms.

I disagree. While there is a lot of confusion in the books of what ghosts can do and when they count as spirits, but it seems clear (to me at least) that ghosts are not supposed to use spirit charms. All the ghost I've seen stats for only use Arcanoi. In the ghost creation rules there is no mention of how to get spirit charms. Many of the ghost charms duplicate effects of spirit charms (e.g. they have a separate charm to materialize) and in general Arcanoi are far less powerful than spirit charms.




Yes, it's horribly stupid, but that's what you get for putting a fourth class of being with different characteristics in with three classes of being that all work mostly the same.

This I agree with. But I would argue that ghosts are fundamentally different from demons, elementals, and gods. At the very least every non-heroic moral, no matter how small, has can become a ghost and have access to their charms.

[The Rose Dragon]

I disagree. While there is a lot of confusion in the books of what ghosts can do and when they count as spirits, but it seems clear (to me at least) that ghosts are not supposed to use spirit charms. All the ghost I've seen stats for only use Arcanoi. In the ghost creation rules there is no mention of how to get spirit charms. Many of the ghost charms duplicate effects of spirit charms (e.g. they have a separate charm to materialize) and in general Arcanoi are far less powerful than spirit charms.

The Scroll of Errata very clearly says they can learn spirit Charms.

[Kylarra]

The Scroll of Errata very clearly says they can learn spirit Charms.Which is kind of amusing since the original text explicitly said they didn't.

[The Rose Dragon]

Which is kind of amusing since the original text explicitly said they didn't.

Where does it say that, might I ask? The only part I found is that they have no access to Excellencies (which, technically, still holds true).

[a_humble_lich]

The Scroll of Errata very clearly says they can learn spirit Charms.

Wow, you're right. I don't like that--I see spirit charms not as something that can be learned but as something that is part of a god's job and being. Arcanoi on the other hand are tricks that a ghost learns. Also spirit charms are much better, why would any ghost learn Arcanoi when spirit charms do the same thing but cheaper and better?

[Kylarra]

Where does it say that, might I ask? The only part I found is that they have no access to Excellencies (which, technically, still holds true).Roll of Glorious Divinity II p 112
"Ghosts may not learn the Charms of Exalts or spirits."

[a_humble_lich]

Roll of Glorious Divinity II p 141
"Ghosts may not learn the Charms of Exalts or spirits."

Hmmm, I like this better (But I have that quote on page 112 :smallconfused:)

[The Rose Dragon]

Roll of Glorious Divinity II p 141
"Ghosts may not learn the Charms of Exalts or spirits."

That page says no such thing for me. In fact, it has one and a half Arcanoi descriptions, and the beginning of the Shifting Ghost-Clay Path.

Doing a quick search for that sentence reveals it does say so in page 112, but then the question is how is it amusing for errata to fix earlier stuff that was in fault?

[Kylarra]

Hmmm, I like this better (But I have that quote on page 112 :smallconfused:)
Argh. Sorry. I have no idea how 141 got up there. It is indeed 112. :smallredface:

[Rockphed]

Yeah.

"Gonna kill a god with your fists and a paperclip? Go ahead! An artifact that obeys the laws of thermodynamics? Sorry, not welcome."

Is not one of the laws of thermodynamics that things always get, in general, less ordered? Is not another that you cannot create energy without taking it from somewhere? I can see an artifact that absorbs your enemies and turns them into motes for you to use as being reasonable, yes?


I think the only reason the writers stipulate that all Exalted must be heroic in some manner is because they don't want Solars who just want to live quiet lives on a farm somewhere in the middle of nowhere.

I think you have insufficient imagination if you think "Live a quiet life on a farm in the middle of nowhere" is not a heroic motivation. There was, after all, that greek guy who led 40,000 troops out of Persia after all their generals got killed. He didn't lose a single soldier. Or consider George Washington who after ruling the US like a king for 8 years walked away from it all to spend time on his farm. Or consider Odysseus who spent 10 years trying to get home. In short, wanting to live a quiet life is only non-heroic if you already are living a quiet life. If you are in the middle of a war, wanting to get home to the family farm can lead to lots of heroism.


All this talk of "You Can Be More" has kinda got me thinking: If some crazy group of Solars somehow managed to YCBM say.. half of the mortals in Creation, what do you think would be the result? What about if they somehow got to like.. 95% of the mortals? Do you think everyone would starve? Or maybe all the heroicness running rampant means /someone/ comes up with a perpetual food source.

Either way it seems like a pretty awesome motivation.

Far from starving, creation would probably enjoy a food surplus not seen in a thousand years. As I understand it, "Heroic" means more "large scale and impressive" than "beat people up and take their stuff." So a heroically motivated farmer will look at his measly farm and the acres sitting unused next to it and figure out how to make them all blossom without his needing much more effort. Or he will just put in 20 hour days, work his cows nearly to death, and farm the whole thing the old way. His brother might decide to see the world, or at least the next town over, and next thing ya know, there is a new trade route open. Their cousin might decide to "heroically" sleep with every woman in town who he isn't related to. Make sense?

[Rikandur Azebol]

In short, don't try to steal sheep from Heroic Farmer Bob !:smallbiggrin:

World where everyone is capable of heroism certainly have a nice ring to it. Of course there would be a LOOT more "heroically lazy" folks too.

[Xefas]

I think the closest you would get to Heroically Lazy would be Heroically Hedonistic.

[Rikandur Azebol]

I think the closest you would get to Heroically Lazy would be Heroically Hedonistic.

I'm talking here about "kill them and take their stuff" type of heroically lazy.^^

[Cyborg Mage]

Tavar, can I ask that this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10849237#post10849237) be added to the Recruiting Games list?

[IcarusWings]

We need someone to run a game with five players, who just take control of five Deathlords, they forsake absolutely all resources, connections, and authority aside from what is physically on their person at the time, and just form a Circle and go personally wipe out Creation by wandering around killing things and taking their stuff.

EDIT: For easy mode, you could even have it happen before the Great Contagion. Instead of "giant world-ending plague followed by fair folk crusade", the Deathlords ultimate evil scheme for ending the world could be "Become adventuring hobos".

I'd be interested in this

[Volthawk]

Also, on the whole Heroic Mortals living on a farm thing, 'the middle of nowhere' can be kinda dangerous anyway. I mean, shadowlands, the Wyld, the various big beasties, celestial exalts trying to evade the Wyld Hunt, the Wyld Hunt, if you live by a village, the Dowager doing her children kidnapping thing...

[TheCountAlucard]

As an Exalted noob, I humbly request a more thorough explanation of this.Sure thing. :smallsmile:


The Yozi reclamation (barring PC actions in RotSE, etc) is successful.Err, no, it isn't. The only one who gets out (barring PC actions in RotSE) is the Ebon Dragon. Look at the West; the Western front for the Reclamation actually fails without PC involvement. Even if they succeed, you don't see scenarios in which Malfeas emerges triumphant in the East, transmuting every inch of land into verdegrised brass as he roars his victory to the heavens.

The Reclamation itself is a wash; the Ebon Dragon never intended for any of the Yozis to escape except for himself. The only thing that could've made their impossible escape possible is the Green Sun Princes, and the likelihood of them remaining loyal enough to do so considering what the Yozis do to them makes it even less possible.

Thus, the Yozis except for Ebon Dragon are stupid because they fell for Ebon Dragon's tricks again. And the Ebon Dragon is stupid for a plethora of reasons.


The Deathlords carve out large swaths of Creation for themselves....and then do nothing afterward. Nothing. Also consider briefly that "carving out large swaths of Creation for themselves" is far below their capabilities. Well, most of 'em, anyway. Screw Walker in Darkness.


Thorns falls.Thorns means nothing. Thorns is but a lark, by which Mask of Winters shows off his new enslaved behemoth and gets to tell his bosses that he isn't just sitting on his thumbs.

Not only that, but if we're going with the RotSE discussion, Thorns may very well get nuked by the Realm Defense Grid.


The Silver Prince's necro-fleet approaches completion. What is it that makes them so stupid?Actually, that one's a little less stupid.


The Deathlords are stupid, cause they didn't start invading sooner. Seriously, the Death Lords according to others are so powerful (solar circle sorcery, sidereal martial arts, all or many solar charms...) that its basically a wonder why they haven't just stormed creation all on their own with the crazy overpowered stuff they have.Mind you, those of us who generally point this stuff out also think it was a rather bad move to make them so stupidly-powerful, but still...


RotSE assumes that a very low probability event happens: their insane plan to exploit a loophole in a magical contract they swore to that allows them to walk Creation once again...Not really. See above... Ebby's the only one that manages to escape, and he's stupid for pointlessly-betraying his brothers and sisters; can you imagine the torments they'll inflict on him when the Exalted host tosses him back down there? That's the nice option.


That and they trust the Ebon Dragon. to many people, thats stupidity enough.This.


as for Neverborn....I don't got any info on them, but I've heard that they are in eternal pain and can't move.....so I'm guessing they are going crazy (well crazier than normal Yozis/Primordials) to the point where they can't stand their pain anymore and want everything destroyed so that it all somehow stops their pain or something. i have honestly no idea.The Neverborn are stupid for being such petulant, obsessive children who refuse to acknowledge an existence beyond the toy that was taken from them by the bully who knocked them down. If they could stop obsessing over Creation, chances are that they could either fall into Oblivion or reform in the Wyld to go find another playground, whichever suits them.


again, none of this is my opinion, to me they are what villains are supposed to be: competent, clever, but royally screwed up in the head, which makes them the villains.Well, of course not. The Yozis and Neverborn shouldn't be made to be the setting's antagonists. They've already been defeated; where's the story in that? :smallconfused: And the Deathlords? They're training their replacements.


Among the Deathlords, the Silver Prince is probably the most competent, yes.Eh, I'm sure he's got something stupid up his sleeve. :smalltongue:


It is not an environment conducive to forward-thinking cooperation.Also this.

[Yuki Akuma]

So, on reading up on God-Bloods for this story I'm writing, I've discovered something odd...

Half-Castes are specifically called out as being unable to learn perfect defenses. Makes sense.

God-Bloods (that is, actual children of gods or elementals), however, can learn Divine Dodge(/Melee/Martial Arts) Subordination, which can be used as a 5m, 1 wp perfect dodge(/parry).

I don't quite understand the charm text, though. It says "whether the attack can be blocked or dodged". Does that mean it doesn't work on undodgeable/unblockable attacks?

Either way, a Terrestrial-level PD isn't bad for a God-Blood.

[Sanguine]

God-Bloods (that is, actual children of gods or elementals), however, can learn Divine Dodge(/Melee/Martial Arts) Subordination, which can be used as a 5m, 1 wp perfect dodge(/parry)

Uhm, no they can't. That's an Essence 5 Charm. God-Bloods only go to Essence 3.

[TheCountAlucard]

Oh, forgot something...

General Exalt Discussion? :confused:

[Yuki Akuma]

The book says God-Bloods normally only go to Essence 3. Storytellers are encouraged to let PCs be exceptional. :smalltongue:

I just find it odd that alf-Castes are specifically caled out as being unable, while God-Bloods only have the fact that most God-Bloods never exceed Essence 3.

Here's the specific text if you don't believe me.


God-Blooded are not the natural fonts of Essence their parents are. Their permanent Essence begins at 1, though this can be raised during character creation with bonus points. No God-Blooded can begin play with an Essence greater than 3, as their mortal natures limit them in this regard. In truth, few God-Blooded ever rise beyond that level in their entire lives, though players’ characters are exceptional and often buck such trends. To reflect this difficulty in transcending their human limitations, the cost to raise Essence from 2 to 3 is 15 bonus points, and all experience costs to raise Essence to 3 or above for God-Blooded are increased by half-again the normal cost. Storytellers should feel free to cap Essence for God-Blooded at 3 if they wish or put special requirements on advancement such as quests or endowment from powerful magical beings.

So basically STs can cap them at 3 or make them go on arduous quests but they can just let them spend a ton of XP on refining their Essence instead.

[Sanguine]

The book says God-Bloods normally only go to Essence 3. Storytellers are encouraged to let PCs be exceptional. :smalltongue:

I just find it odd that alf-Castes are specifically caled out as being unable, while God-Bloods only have the fact that most God-Bloods never exceed Essence 3.

I'm fairly certain it's a hard cap. For instance if a Ghost-Blood hits Essence 4 they die and become a ghost. I'll see if I can find a page reference for that.

Edit: Huh. Don't remember that.

[Yuki Akuma]

So yes.

Truly exceptional God-Bloods can learn a Terrestrial-level PD, while Half-Castes are specifically called out as being absolutely unable to learn PDs.

Discuss.

Edit: I think I found what you were thinking of.


In addition to the increased costs, raising Essence beyond 3 often has special complications for God-Blooded. Most simply cannot surpass this level, and those who do often find they must undergo a transformation that makes them something more supernatural than mortal. For example, a Ghost-Blood who raises her Essence to 4 might find the increase in power kills her and turns her into a full ghost. A God-Blood might transcend and become a full god. In these cases, many mutations will naturally be lost and should be converted into experience to purchase similar Charms available to the type of creature the character is now. (See “Inheritance,” p. 127, for experience values of various mutations.) The loss of negative mutations in this manner will create a similar experience deficit to be paid off with current or future experience. These changes should not be simply a matter of paying the experience and rearranging some numbers.they represent a fundamental and lasting change in the very nature of the God-Blood.

Notice the fact that it uses words like "often", "might" and "may". No definites. Exceptional Essence 5 God-Bloods are possible, just really, really unlikely.

I like to think a protagonist with Destiny 5 qualifies. :P

[Sanguine]

So yes.

Truly exceptional God-Bloods can learn a Terrestrial-level PD, while Half-Castes are specifically called out as being absolutely unable to learn PDs.

Discuss.

That's stupid and the rule against PDs should be universal among God-Bloods. The writers most likely thought Perfects were an Exalt only thing.

[Volthawk]

Can't say I'm too familiar with god-bloods and half-castes, but I suppose it could be something like: Exaltation is an addition to a mortal, while gods have inherent power, so when the god has a child, more power is passed down to the child than the power given to an Exalt's child.

[IcarusWings]

The book says God-Bloods normally only go to Essence 3. Storytellers are encouraged to let PCs be exceptional. :smalltongue:

I just find it odd that alf-Castes are specifically caled out as being unable, while God-Bloods only have the fact that most God-Bloods never exceed Essence 3.

Here's the specific text if you don't believe me.



So basically STs can cap them at 3 or make them go on arduous quests but they can just let them spend a ton of XP on refining their Essence instead.

Yeah, but even if they can go above Essence 3, don't they ascend at that point? So a God-blood learning an Essence 5 perfect dodge can do so because he is now a God. But for a Half-Caste, their method of ascension is Exaltation, which doesn't happen normally but does grant Perfects. So for both of them you can get hold of Perfects after ascension, it's just they ascend in different ways.

That's the way I see it anyway.

[Sanguine]

Can't say I'm too familiar with god-bloods and half-castes, but I suppose it could be something like: Exaltation is an addition to a mortal, while gods have inherent power, so when the god has a child, more power is passed down to the child than the power given to an Exalt's child.

That's already accounted for by their larger Mote Pools and ability to recover motes. The balancing factor for this is supposed to be that Half-Castes get better Charms. Which doesn't hold true if God-Bloods get PDs.

[Yuki Akuma]

So I edited this into my post before other people posted. Just in case it got missed:


In addition to the increased costs, raising Essence beyond 3 often has special complications for God-Blooded. Most simply cannot surpass this level, and those who do often find they must undergo a transformation that makes them something more supernatural than mortal. For example, a Ghost-Blood who raises her Essence to 4 might find the increase in power kills her and turns her into a full ghost. A God-Blood might transcend and become a full god. In these cases, many mutations will naturally be lost and should be converted into experience to purchase similar Charms available to the type of creature the character is now. (See “Inheritance,” p. 127, for experience values of various mutations.) The loss of negative mutations in this manner will create a similar experience deficit to be paid off with current or future experience. These changes should not be simply a matter of paying the experience and rearranging some numbers.they represent a fundamental and lasting change in the very nature of the God-Blood.

No definites, only possibilities.

Likely possibilities, but still.


That's already accounted for by their larger Mote Pools and ability to recover motes. The balancing factor for this is supposed to be that Half-Castes get better Charms. Which doesn't hold true if God-Bloods get PDs.

Yeah, I do think it's probably just a mistake and that all God-Bloods are meant to be incapable of PDs. Scroll of Heroes is hilariously badly written (Archery, Thrown or Brawl? Come on now). I just like that it doesn't specify that God-Bloods can't elarnt hem in general, because it helps with my quest to make my God-Blooded protagonist awesome. :P

Is he a Mary-Sue? A bit, yeah.

[IcarusWings]

We need someone to run an Alchemical game set in Autocthonia.

Seconded, although it might be prudent to wait until after the full Compass comes out.

[The_Snark]

\...and then do nothing afterward. Nothing. Also consider briefly that "carving out large swaths of Creation for themselves" is far below their capabilities. Well, most of 'em, anyway. Screw Walker in Darkness.

Thorns means nothing. Thorns is but a lark, by which Mask of Winters shows off his new enslaved behemoth and gets to tell his bosses that he isn't just sitting on his thumbs.

I think it's important to remember that many of the Deathlords may not actually be all that enthusiastic about their ostensible goals. They're ghosts who refused to move on; their defining characteristic is their inability to let go of their existence. Sure, it's possible that some of them have been won over, and are genuinely working to bring about the end of everything... but I think it's much more likely that the majority of them are putting on a show for their masters while they enjoy their existence as awesomely powerful immortal beings. Sure, they're spiteful and wouldn't mind killing everyone who ever wronged them (and a lot more people besides), but do they want it enough to give that up? Probably not.

Some of them may even be sabotaging the war effort intentionally; you could certainly interpret the conquest of Thorns as the Mask making sure that Oblivion's enemies are aware of the threat, and if the Dowager is correct about the Fair Folk invasion messing up the Great Contagion then there's a similar argument for the Lion (and maybe Eye and Seven Despairs).

Now, the Bishop is probably a true believer. The Dowager is loyal (or at least too convinced of the inevitability of Oblivion to oppose it), but she's also insane, and prefers to work through masterstrokes of mad genius or not at all. The Lover as presented is working towards Oblivion out of sheer boredom, but not very hard; ennui does not make a good motivator.

The Silver Prince hasn't shown his hand yet; he's building up power, but it's anyone's guess what he intends to do with it. He might be loyal, but I could certainly see him trying to seize power for himself instead. It's hard to say anything about Black Heron, because we haven't seen any schemes of hers that weren't aimed mostly at the Lion. Eye of Seven Despairs is simply self-absorbed or incompetent most of the time... unless he's actually a genius feigning incompetence (always an outside possibility) to lure his enemies into a false sense of security, in which case it's he's a wild card.

But the Lion and the Mask, definitely prime candidates for fifth columnists. They're not bumbling. They know exactly what they're doing, thank you very much.

(Actually, a campaign starring the Mask of Winters and the First and Forsaken Lion with this premise sounds like a lot of fun.)

Edit- Oh, right, forgot about Walker in Darkness because he's sorta boring. He can be loyal too, I guess.


The Neverborn are stupid for being such petulant, obsessive children who refuse to acknowledge an existence beyond the toy that was taken from them by the bully who knocked them down. If they could stop obsessing over Creation, chances are that they could either fall into Oblivion or reform in the Wyld to go find another playground, whichever suits them.
That's an... interesting interpretation, but I don't think I've ever seen anything that suggests they could magically come back to life just by wishing it.

Succumbing to Oblivion is another story; if you think of them as ghosts with Creation as their fetter, I suppose you could make the argument that it's only their attachment that keeps them in their state of tormented half-existence. But I don't think it's fair to say "just get over it already." It's like expecting someone with severe depression or PTSD to just get over it; of course it would be better if they could wish their problems away, but it's not that easy.

[TheCountAlucard]

I think it's important to remember that many of the Deathlords may not actually be all that enthusiastic about their ostensible goals.One more reason I find their statting out of the Deathlords to be so silly - do you think Mask of Winters' Motivation is really accurate? Think a being as powerful as he is would really fail to bring about the end of existence if it was his Motivation? Either his power level is wrong, or his writeup is wrong. :smallsigh:


Sure, it's possible that some of them have been won over, and are genuinely working to bring about the end of everything... but I think it's much more likely that the majority of them are putting on a show for their masters while they enjoy their existence as awesomely powerful immortal beings.Agreed. Again, though, if that was the case, it should be in their writeup. As it is, however, their writeup implies that they're loyal, but are tremendously-incompetent at their jobs; unfortunately, it's not hard to see the inherent failings here. :smallannoyed:


Sure, they're spiteful and wouldn't mind killing everyone who ever wronged them (and a lot more people besides), but do they want it enough to give that up? Probably not.See above.


Some of them may even be sabotaging the war effort intentionally; you could certainly interpret the conquest of Thorns as the Mask making sure that Oblivion's enemies are aware of the threat, and if the Dowager is correct about the Fair Folk invasion messing up the Great Contagion then there's a similar argument for the Lion (and maybe Eye and Seven Despairs).If the First and Forsaken Lion wanted to, he could Black Faith his way into the Jade Pleasure Dome, and lay some serious whup on the Unconquered Sun, at no personal risk to himself. Either he doesn't really care about ending Creation, or he's even more of a colossal, short-sighted moron than we can imagine. Again, either the Deathlords need to be less-powerful, or their goals aren't really centered on bringing about the end of all things. Or both, that would be acceptable. :smallamused:


The Dowager is loyal (or at least too convinced of the inevitability of Oblivion to oppose it), but she's also insane, and prefers to work through masterstrokes of mad genius or not at all.Actually, this was how I was running her in my game. :smallamused:


The Silver Prince hasn't shown his hand yet; he's building up power, but it's anyone's guess what he intends to do with it. He might be loyal, but I could certainly see him trying to seize power for himself instead.I throw my support to this one, simply because it's the more interesting one. :smallsmile:


It's hard to say anything about Black Heron, because we haven't seen any schemes of hers that weren't aimed mostly at the Lion.Sad but true; why even have her be a Deathlord if she's not going to have an impact on the setting? :smallsigh:


But the Lion and the Mask, definitely prime candidates for fifth columnists. They're not bumbling. They know exactly what they're doing, thank you very much.See my previous bit on Mask and FaFL. :smallsigh:


That's an... interesting interpretation, but I don't think I've ever seen anything that suggests they could magically come back to life just by wishing it.I know I've seen it somewhere, and now it's gonna bug me if I don't spend half my day hunting it down. :smallannoyed:


Succumbing to Oblivion is another story; if you think of them as ghosts with Creation as their fetter, I suppose you could make the argument that it's only their attachment that keeps them in their state of tormented half-existence. But I don't think it's fair to say "just get over it already." It's like expecting someone with severe depression or PTSD to just get over it; of course it would be better if they could wish their problems away, but it's not that easy.I never meant to imply it was easy, but given that this is Exalted, it's likely far from impossible, especially if the Exalted actually had had the good sense in the First Age to help them let go, instead of going down to their tombs and teabagging them.

[Jokasti]

Being grounded is fun. What have I missed?
Also, AP exams are in a couple weeks but after that I'll see if I can throw up a recruitment thread.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Eh. 2500 XP is a bit less then what Deathlords actually get, and is a little less then what a 1000 year old Exalted gets. I'd go with the Charms simply for ease of use.

That said, restricting it to Essence 5- Charms, and then having unique panoply Charms for high Essence effects might be a good idea. I'm open to suggestions, if anyone has them.

[Guancyto]

I never meant to imply it was easy, but given that this is Exalted, it's likely far from impossible, especially if the Exalted actually had had the good sense in the First Age to help them let go, instead of going down to their tombs and teabagging them.

That's ridiculous, that is. Helping the Neverborn to move on deprives you of Necromancy, probably makes Soulsteel a nonrenewable resource and the effects on the Underworld itself are completely unknown. Why would anyone try to destroy such a useful resource whose dangers are so very contained?

[Turalisj]

Eh. 2500 XP is a bit less then what Deathlords actually get, and is a little less then what a 1000 year old Exalted gets. I'd go with the Charms simply for ease of use.

That said, restricting it to Essence 5- Charms, and then having unique panoply Charms for high Essence effects might be a good idea. I'm open to suggestions, if anyone has them.

Again asking about the chance to play a Void Lord :smallbiggrin:

[Friv]

If the First and Forsaken Lion wanted to, he could Black Faith his way into the Jade Pleasure Dome, and lay some serious whup on the Unconquered Sun, at no personal risk to himself. Either he doesn't really care about ending Creation, or he's even more of a colossal, short-sighted moron than we can imagine.

I do not think that would work out well for him. If he teleports into the Pleasure Dome, he's going toe-to-toe with the UCS while all of the UCS's Virtues are primed, meaning he needs to perfect defend constantly or be instantly vaporized and the UCS has infinite perfect defenses. Meanwhile, the room also contains Luna, the five Maidens, and one of Gaia's jouten, none of whom will be happy to see the Lion.

And then the Incarna start paying attention to the Deathlords.

I mean, I agree that with their stats as presented, one of the Deathlords should have taken a stroll around Creation to trigger Arisen and Screaming by now, ending the world, but that's not a great way to go about it.

[TheCountAlucard]

I do not think that would work out well for him.Why not? It literally won't do him any harm - remember, he's got scripted immortality. You don't have [special Deathlord weakness], which may or may not even exist? Too bad, Ignis Divine, looks like you've just inconvenienced him. A little.


If he teleports into the Pleasure Dome, he's going toe-to-toe with the UCS while all of the UCS's Virtues are primed...Except Temperance, because he's playing the Games...


meaning he needs to perfect defend constantly or be instantly vaporized and the UCS has infinite perfect defenses.Except that in order to be playing the Games, he's denying his Temperance...


Meanwhile, the room also contains Luna, the five Maidens, and one of Gaia's jouten, none of whom will be happy to see the Lion.Luna has her times when she's not there (namely when it's not her turn). As for Gaia, she's also not always there (coincidentally often at the same time as Luna...). The Maidens will do nothing, because either a) the Unconquered Sun is destined to win, and thus they have no reason to help him, or b) the Unconquered Sun is destined to lose, and thus they cannot interfere.


And then the Incarna start paying attention to the Deathlords.Assuming they can tear their attention away from the Games of Divinity, which they can't.


I mean, I agree that with their stats as presented, one of the Deathlords should have taken a stroll around Creation to trigger Arisen and Screaming by now, ending the world, but that's not a great way to go about it.Admittedly, I was just presenting the absurd option. There's a million ways they could've done the deed.

[Mr.Bookworm]

The First and Forsaken Lion can semi-canonically go toe-to-toe with the Unconquered Sun. In RotSE, the Neverborn have a backdoor into the Jade Pleasure Dome, and they sneak a strike team of Faffles, Infernals, and Abyssals through it to kill Sol.

I think that Faffles, as the strongest of the Deathlords, should be about on par with the Incarnae, since his whole schtick is supposed to be that he's incredibly powerful, but the Neverborn have restrained him and he has zero interest in Creation.

[The_Snark]

One more reason I find their statting out of the Deathlords to be so silly - do you think Mask of Winters' Motivation is really accurate? Think a being as powerful as he is would really fail to bring about the end of existence if it was his Motivation? Either his power level is wrong, or his writeup is wrong. :smallsigh:

Ah, well. I sympathize with the writers here; printed stat blocks for villains who are supposed to be a bit of an enigma are a bit of a problem that way.


See above.

If the First and Forsaken Lion wanted to, he could Black Faith his way into the Jade Pleasure Dome, and lay some serious whup on the Unconquered Sun, at no personal risk to himself. Either he doesn't really care about ending Creation, or he's even more of a colossal, short-sighted moron than we can imagine. Again, either the Deathlords need to be less-powerful, or their goals aren't really centered on bringing about the end of all things. Or both, that would be acceptable. :smallamused:

I think the issue the writers run into here is that they want several things from the Deathlords that don't work well together. They want each individual Deathlord to be able to pose a serious threat to even a circle of powerful Exalts, and crush anything lesser that dares confront them. Fair enough. Any game needs antagonists, and heroes who never face off against anything greater than they are aren't all that heroic.

They want each Deathlord to be loyal to the cause, at least outwardly. They mention a few times that some of them may not be, but they don't want to name names because they want to leave it up to the individual Storyteller to decide which, if any, are disloyal. Also fair enough. I approve of leaving some uncertainties about the setting (my pain peeve with Return of the Scarlet Empress is that it gives a canonical answer to the question "what happened to the Scarlet Empress).

Lastly, they want the Deathlords to have been around for centuries.

Any two of these three could work. If the Deathlords are ancient and awesomely powerful but are dragging their heels on purpose, it makes sense. If the Deathlords are ancient and dedicated but lack the raw power to move openly or quickly, it makes sense. If the Deathlords were awesomely powerful and dedicated to the cause but had only arisen recently, that would also make sense, though it would require overturning either the setting's history or the basic premise of the Deathlords.

Personally, I'm in favor of keeping them powerful, but constraining that power sharply outside the Underworld; that explains why they don't just attack Creation outright, but prevents people from dismissing them as a threat. (Plus possible traitors among the ranks.)

Well, either that or option E: the Deathlords and the Silver Pact have been waging a bloody secret war for centuries, explaining why neither of them has had a more visible impact on the setting and killing two problematic birds with one stone. :smalltongue:


Sad but true; why even have her be a Deathlord if she's not going to have an impact on the setting? :smallsigh:


Um... interesting point, actually. I like her as a plot element, but now that I think about it I don't think anything would change much if she were a powerful spectre or something.


I never meant to imply it was easy, but given that this is Exalted, it's likely far from impossible, especially if the Exalted actually had had the good sense in the First Age to help them let go, instead of going down to their tombs and teabagging them.

Many things in the setting would be different if more Exalted had more sense. :smallsmile: (And maybe an omniscient perspective of the setting like we do. Oh well.)

I think you've hit on a significant point, though: they're not going to get better on their own. They're trapped in a nightmarish combination of sensory deprivation and endless pain and fevered dreaming, which is not conducive to any sort of recovery.

(This does make me wonder, though: if Adorjan were to be killed, would she simply pass straight to Oblivion?)

[Sanguine]

Eh. 2500 XP is a bit less then what Deathlords actually get, and is a little less then what a 1000 year old Exalted gets. I'd go with the Charms simply for ease of use.

That said, restricting it to Essence 5- Charms, and then having unique panoply Charms for high Essence effects might be a good idea. I'm open to suggestions, if anyone has them.

I would so be interested in this Deathlord Game.


Assuming they can tear their attention away from the Games of Divinity, which they can't.

Then how is Luna not always there?

[TheCountAlucard]

Then how is Luna not always there?That's a very good question. Glories: Luna points out that she's just as addicted as the rest of the Incarnae, but it also makes mention of the fact that she will show up on her Silver Chair from time to time.

Point being, the presence or absence of the Deathlords will likely do nothing more to tear the Incarnae away from the Games than anything else in the setting, so what would it matter if they started paying attention to them?

[SurlySeraph]

Sad but true; why even have her be a Deathlord if she's not going to have an impact on the setting? :smallsigh:

Because the her/ FaFL plot wouldn't really work if she wasn't a Deathlord? Because having a Deathlord who's all pathetic and cute is hilarious?

[Turalisj]

Then how is Luna not always there?

Because Luna is too wild and uncontrollable to be pinned down by the Games. She's like a god with a bad case of ADHD. And nymphomania

[Yuki Akuma]

Only the Unconquered Sun spends all his time in the Jade Pleasure Dome. The other six Incarnae only spend the majority of their time there.

[Lix Lorn]

Their cousin might decide to "heroically" sleep with every woman in town who he isn't related to. Make sense?
Next heroic mortal game I see>>>>Motivation: Sleep with everyone.
EVERYONE.

Also, on the Deathlord game: DO WANT. Even better, I could play FaFL's ex-Lunar mate! :smalltongue:

And the Black Heron, doing things? Funny you should say that... (works on the DB Project)

[MickJay]

Concerning the "heroic farmer" discussion - it might well be a heroic motivation, if you've already got power, but would rather relinquish it for altruistic reasons (e.g a victorious rebel leader gives up power to those he think will do better at governing than he would). Real life example could be Roman dictator, L. Cincinnatus. Staying and farming the land in particularly harsh circumstances, where an easier option is available, could also make it a heroic motivation.

[jindra34]

Concerning the "heroic farmer" discussion - it might well be a heroic motivation, if you've already got power, but would rather relinquish it for altruistic reasons (e.g a victorious rebel leader gives up power to those he think will do better at governing than he would).

Or just push it to be the absolute best farmer. Imagine a threshold farmer who wanted to be know for having better grain than anyone on the Blessed Isle. Or other similar extreme competency motivations.

[Sallera]

That's an... interesting interpretation, but I don't think I've ever seen anything that suggests they could magically come back to life just by wishing it.


I know I've seen it somewhere, and now it's gonna bug me if I don't spend half my day hunting it down. :smallannoyed:

Perhaps the section in... Abyssals, I think? ...where it mentions the Neverborn returning to life in the Wyld as a possible result of a successful Balorian Crusade?

[Kylarra]

Next heroic mortal game I see>>>>Motivation: Sleep with everyone.
EVERYONE.So you're like a less discriminating Ma-Ha-Suchi.

GG :smallamused:

[TheCountAlucard]

Perhaps the section in... Abyssals, I think? ...where it mentions the Neverborn returning to life in the Wyld as a possible result of a successful Balorian Crusade?That might be it, but I could've sworn there was more to it than that. :smallsigh:

[Psyborg]

So you're like a less discriminating Ma-Ha-Suchi.

GG :smallamused:

To non-Lunars, "everyone" is typically assumed to mean, "of the same race". And even if it really does mean, "everyone", you could still prioritize within that extremely large list. A reasonably self-interested system might look like...
1) Anyone who catches my eye as particularly attractive [varies by personal personal preference];
2) Anyone who I can spite my enemy by sleeping with [self-explanatory];
3) Anyone who's healthy and interfertile [opposite-gender same-species; fey; gods/spirits/demons/some ghosts; almost anything, if you go far enough out into the Wyld];
4) Anyone who's willing and unattached [may as well put off prosecution as long as possible];
5) Anyone who's willing and attached [adultery is generally less harshly punished than rape, though this varies heavily by culture];
6) Anyone who I can get drunk/drugged/tricked [getting onto thinner ice legally, but not utterly reckless yet]
7) Anyone else of the same species.
~~7a) <insert broad age/gender preference here>
~~7b-7n) <insert age/gender categories here in decreasing preferability>
8) Other-species mammals [subcategorize by preference]
9) Non-mammalian life.
10) This is where we start figuring out how to transport particularly beautiful mountains, caves, or other landscapes to the Wyld.



Purchasing the Adorjani charm "Running to Forever" twice is heavily recommended for actually accomplishing this scheme. The Sidereal Dodge charm "Neighborhood Relocation Scheme" would make 10) much easier, so maybe the non-Exalted mortal with the best chance of accomplishing this goal would be a Sidereal half-caste akuma? He'd need SG fiat to meet the prerequisites (Essence 4 and a perfect defense, which half-castes are normally prohibited from), but it seems fairly believable.

The "Inexhaustible" and "Short Gestation" mutations, and the "Selective Conception" merit, might also be useful.

On the other hand, making the area around the landscape feature in question Wyld for a time is probably easier than relocating it there. Hmm.

[Kylarra]

You're still a less discriminating MHS, since he only wanted to sleep with all the exalts.

[TheCountAlucard]

Why do we have to bring the Wyld into this? Wasn't there an artifact in Scroll of Swallowed Darkness that allowed for these sorts of shenanigans?

Also, please don't bring mortal akuma into this. We all know what's wrong with them. :smallyuk:

[The Rose Dragon]

Why do we have to bring the Wyld into this? Wasn't there an artifact in Scroll of Swallowed Darkness that allowed for these sorts of shenanigans?

There is! Many-Stalked Flower of Delights. Mortals cannot use it, however, since it requires 3 motes per lover. And since inanimate objects don't have motes to spend...

[Psyborg]

Thaumaturgy, summon/call a god/demon/elemental with an Endowment charm, and hope you're a smooth talker.

[Feriority]

Then how is Luna not always there?

I interpreted that as the Games not providing the fix you want when it isn't your turn. The UCS can't just leave and return, because you need to know what's going on at all times to play well; Luna doesn't care, and just steps out once in a while, like that person who got tired midway through a long game of Risk and is now continuing to play, but not really paying attention, and making stupid moves that are throwing the balance of the game off because WHY WOULD YOU EVEN ATTACK THERE? Unlike that player, though, Luna can't just make a suicide attack and get out, because the games are still addictive, so even if you don't play optimally, you can't just not play your turn.

If you couldn't tell, I'm pretty familiar with gamers behaving in that way >.>

[golentan]

The thing is, people talk about the Neverborn's plan (kill creation so they can pass into oblivion) as if it can succeed, when we have canonical evidence that it is almost certainly more impossible than the yozi plan.

Creation got wiped. It spent more than a hundred years just not existing. Now, we don't know if the underworld did the same since it doesn't share a border with the wyld IIRC, and the ebon dragon isn't a reputable source. But the thing is, creation came back. And the neverborn were still sitting there in pain when people went to check.

[The Rose Dragon]

Creation got wiped. It spent more than a hundred years just not existing. Now, we don't know if the underworld did the same since it doesn't share a border with the wyld IIRC, and the ebon dragon isn't a reputable source. But the thing is, creation came back. And the neverborn were still sitting there in pain when people went to check.

If you're referring to the Time of Cascading Years, Creation simply broke at the time, it didn't cease to exist. If you're referring to something else, I have no idea what you are referring to.

[golentan]

If you're referring to the Time of Cascading Years, Creation simply broke at the time, it didn't cease to exist. If you're referring to something else, I have no idea what you are referring to.

Hmm... You seem to be right. I had recalled a comment to the effect that it had actually disappeared from an outside perspective, but I guess I was misremembering. Withdrawn.

[Mr.Bookworm]

The Ebon Dragon, Ma-Ha Suchi, Desus, Arkady and Peleps Deled Dickery Voltron suggested by Mr. Bookworm?

The Ebon Dragon and Ma-Ha Suchi are already spoken for. Desus and Arkady are dead. And Peleps Deled will show up on the Isle to be curbstomped at the appropriate place.

Also, if anyone wants in on this, here are the rules of character creation, and a bit of info on the game, because god knows it would take me forever to build a character this big. I'll post the thread up in a week or so. This will be slanted towards a more sandbox style, and also semi-light-hearted in a blackly comic way, because otherwise this would become a big grimfest really really fast. Also, you won't be rolling except for major encounters, so there might be stretches of semi-freeform.

-Build as Abyssals

-3000 XP

-Access to all Solar and Abyssal Charms at or below Essence 5. Excepting Holy, of course (you can buy it, you just can't use it).

-You may buy Arcanoi and spirit Charms as Out-of-Caste Charms. You get the four Deathlord-only Arcanoi specified in the Abyssal manual for free.

-You may learn all levels of martial arts, up to the Celestial circle of Sorcery, and up to the Void Circle of Necromancy.

-You get five free Panoply Charms, unique to you alone (homebrew them, obviously). These should probably fall somewhere between Third Circle Panoply Charms and Incarnae Panoply Charms, with some wiggle room. You may buy additional Panoply Charms for 50 XP, to a maximum of (Essence) total. All of these are subject to Storyteller approval.

-Backgrounds cost 3xp per new dot. You may be able to take Legendary backgrounds (including Artifact N/A), but you have to ask very nicely.

-You get massive Deathlord mote pools, not the standard Abyssal ones.

-One free spell of the same level for every initiation Charm.

-A free Ox-Body for every dot of Essence.

-All books and Ink Monkey material are allowed.

-Homebrew may be allowed. Check with me.

-Tear the game in half and I will tear you in half.

-Deathlord style regeneration is sped up to the level of PLOT. You'll be out of commission for a while if you die, but you'll get to come back into the game.

-You may not play an existing Deathlord. Make up a new one, with an appropriately cool name, including who you were in the First Age, how you died, why you sucked hard enough to take the deal, and what you've been up to since. We're ignoring the 13 Deathlords figure given, so I'll take 4-6 players depending on interest and may ability to read massive character sheets.

-Except to fight things that cannot be beaten by face-punching. There will be plenty of that to go around without every encounter being solved by chucking a mountain at it.

-If you want to play something else, a Yozi, a Void Lord, a Lunar, whatever, talk with me and we'll discuss it.


Anything I left out?

[Turalisj]

Should I talk with you about the Void Lord over AIM?

[Lochar]

Anything I left out?

A recruiting thread? :P

[Mr.Bookworm]

A recruiting thread? :P

http://rlv.zcache.com/uncle_sam_want_you_shut_up_card-p137535903212785661q0yk_400.jpg

And sure, Turalisj. I'm HerraLukutoukka, no space, and not Finnish if that makes you curious.

[The Rose Dragon]

You left out that Deathlords are dysfunctional ghosts (which is why they haven't done anything to destroy the world, thank you), and that they should appropriately have Fetters and Passions that prevent them from being useful to the Neverborn.

[Mr.Bookworm]

You left out that Deathlords are dysfunctional ghosts (which is why they haven't done anything to destroy the world, thank you), and that they should appropriately have Fetters and Passions that prevent them from being useful to the Neverborn.

The default assumption of this game is that these are the competent Deathlords and that you will actually be destroying Creation instead of screwing around.

I mean, a game where you played Lunar Elders and just moped around all day wouldn't be very fun. Same idea.

That said, I'll think about it.

[The Rose Dragon]

The default assumption of this game is that these are the competent Deathlords and that you will actually be destroying Creation instead of screwing around.

I mean, a game where you played Lunar Elders and just moped around all day wouldn't be very fun. Same idea.

That said, I'll think about it.

Yes, but there is no reason Lunar Elders would be incompetent. Similarly, there is no reason why Deathlords, being ghosts of great passions vis a vis Creation's existence, should be competent.

[Lochar]

Depends. I assume being fused with the remnents of the Neverborn's Third Circle Souls was enough to create a new Fetter for them. Alternately, isn't there a Labyrinth circle spell that alters a ghost if you know their motivation and fetters?

It could have been an effect like that, but pumped up. So while the ghosts of the Solars meant to take the power, they didn't realize it would be overwritting them so hard.

[Tavar]

So...for those of you who don't know, Test of Spite is reopening. And Exalted is one of the systems that they're adding. Yeah, I know, crazy. And now I'm going to end up as a primary Ref. This means I need to make a banlist, as well as houserules. Just wanted to run this preliminary list by you, it's not nearly comprehensive.


Exalts gain free Ox-body Meditation charms equal to their natural stamina. These don't count for the purpose of prerequisites, or limitations on how many times you can take it.
Solars gain 5 free Excelencies from their caste or favored abilites, max of one free per ability.
Lunars gain 2 free excelencies from their caste or Favored attributes.
Dragonblooded and Sidereals gain 4 free excelencies from their caste, aspect, favored, or auspicious abilities.
Sorcery initiation charms give the appropriate counter spell charm for free.
Articulated plate and Superheavy Plate artifact armors from the core book have their artifact rating reduced by 2.
Artifact armors from the core book have hearthstone sockets equal to [artifact rating-1], after adjustemts mentioned above.
Lunars use these chargen rules (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Peter_Schaefer_on_Lunar_Character_ Generation)
Most current Errata is used, including character creation.


I'm thinking there are still some things that need to be addressed. For instance, Stunts. Note, this is simply the houserules, not the banlist.



Then how is Luna not always there?

I believe the canon is that Luna's constantly changing nature gives her some immunity to addiction. Or, it would, if she could stay away from it longer.

Also, fixed the first post, as well as the title. I blame whoever I copied the title from.

[SurlySeraph]

Good for you for reffing, and those look like perfectly good rules. My thoughts are already in the ToS thread.

[Lochar]

If you're allowing Infernals, you'll need to note what they get for their Excellency.

[Tavar]

I lack MoEP: Infernals, thus I can't in good conscious allow them. This might change if another ref has access to them.

[meschlum]

To non-Lunars, "everyone" is typically assumed to mean, "of the same race". And even if it really does mean, "everyone", you could still prioritize within that extremely large list. A reasonably self-interested system might look like...
1) Anyone who catches my eye as particularly attractive [varies by personal personal preference];
2) Anyone who I can spite my enemy by sleeping with [self-explanatory];
3) Anyone who's healthy and interfertile [opposite-gender same-species; fey; gods/spirits/demons/some ghosts; almost anything, if you go far enough out into the Wyld];
4) Anyone who's willing and unattached [may as well put off prosecution as long as possible];
5) Anyone who's willing and attached [adultery is generally less harshly punished than rape, though this varies heavily by culture];
6) Anyone who I can get drunk/drugged/tricked [getting onto thinner ice legally, but not utterly reckless yet]
7) Anyone else of the same species.
~~7a) <insert broad age/gender preference here>
~~7b-7n) <insert age/gender categories here in decreasing preferability>
8) Other-species mammals [subcategorize by preference]
9) Non-mammalian life.
10) This is where we start figuring out how to transport particularly beautiful mountains, caves, or other landscapes to the Wyld.

(...)

The "Inexhaustible" and "Short Gestation" mutations, and the "Selective Conception" merit, might also be useful.

On the other hand, making the area around the landscape feature in question Wyld for a time is probably easier than relocating it there. Hmm.

Sorry, can't resist (Bedlam is nigh!).

A) Pick up Assumption of the Living Kingdom and combine it with Bestial Assumption (or Dreams and Passion) in order to have all the right bits and manifest them over a few score square miles (or more) - this does not help with specific goals, but lets you, ah, multi-task.

B) Imposition of Law gets you all the Extras you want (regardless of species) and anyone who'd be willing anyway. Use a few to make sure they enjoy the experience, okay? Fertility is also an option.

C) Why travel to the Wyld when Assumptions can bring the Wyld to you? Only works near the edges of Creation, then you have to get inventive. Principle of Worlds (possibly with Tranlucent Dream sheathing Technology backup) can endow a (small) mountain with speech and - other - responses. For larger landmasses (a cute continent, say), there are still options (see F).

D) If there is a non-human species you find particularly interesting, things just became a lot easier. Bestial Transformation will turn *everyone* it affects into said species. Have it include the mutations that fit your needs, and go for it. The locals might wonder why Mount Pleasant is suddenly a rabbit, but that's their problem.

D.1) If you prefer gods and humans (weirdo), Dragonbloods, one specific person (pining for Desus after this many years, perhaps?) or crossbreeds, there is still hope. Give a Staff Grace to your selected partner, and have them swear an Adjuration with the appropriate Assumptions on it. Dreams and Passion (lust, to make things easier) or Elemental Form will give you most gods and humans (including directional variants), Elemental Form gives you Dragonbloods, Dreams and Passion (disguise) lets you have your One True Love over and over (in multiples), and Bestial Form takes care of the human - wolverine - koala cross of your innermost dreams.

D.2) Actual Elementals are a bit more of a pain. Give your (non-elemental) partner a Cup Grace, have them attune to an Oneiromancy with Elemental Tranformation, and use Spirit Flaying Meditation on your Occult so you can't tell the difference.

D.3) How are these Extras managing to attune to the Adjurations and Oneiromancies you're throwing around? Behemoth Forging Meditation can give them Awakened Essence. Or Bestial Transformation into an Essence using animal. Or give them a full suite of Graces, open a feeding maw, and their Essence is activated by default. Or have a pet with Asusmption of the Person's Heart bond with them and share the relevant charms. Really, it's not an issue.

E) For categories up to 9), get your target inside your Chancel of choice, with a Freehold inside. Every scene, the freehold's glory gets to perform a social attack with ~10 automatic successes (before Charms) to get them to consent.

F) For 10), give your target of choice a full suite of Graces. They are now self aware, and by attuning to their Heart Grace, you can own them. Once they are owned, you can evoke them at will. Such as inside your Chancel, or (for extra mind games) inside the daydream of the person who initially thought it was a cute mountain. So he's staring at the peak, thnking about it in... affectionate terms, when it suddenly vanishes and his imagination gets very detailed, and graphic, with you mixed in. And marmots. Can't forget the marmots.

[Lix Lorn]

I did those charms I mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10866200#post10866200). (has her PC. Is happy)

Also, meschlum... I love you so much.

[Xefas]

Infernal
>None<
I see how it is.

[a_humble_lich]

I see how it is.

Isn't that because Abyssals are just cooler :smalltongue:

[The Rose Dragon]

Isn't that because Abyssals are just cooler :smalltongue:

Shh. I've been trying to teach them that fact for years. Haven't seen any success so far.

[Sanguine]

Also, meschlum... I love you so much.

I quite agree with this sentiment.

Now off to look at those charms.

[Kylarra]

Shh. I've been trying to teach them that fact for years. Haven't seen any success so far.Wouldn't that be because infernals are mostly on fire?

[The Rose Dragon]

Wouldn't that be because infernals are mostly on fire?

Man, I wish. The quicker they burn to death, the quicker the world can forget about them.

[Turalisj]

Hey, Abyssals are the ones who make creation want to kill itself for them.

[Kobold-Bard]

Man, I wish. The quicker they burn to death, the quicker the world can forget about them.

What's wrong with Infernals?

[tonberrian]

What's wrong with Infernals?

According to TRD? They aren't Abyssals.

According to people who don't hold with that nonsense? Nothing at all. :smallcool:

[Yuki Akuma]

Fact: Abyssals are emo Infernal-wannabes.

[Lix Lorn]

I see how it is.
Yes, it's 'Lix is too lazy to learn Infernal rules'.
I'll get to it, promise? Anything for the Bunny That Rules In Cuteness.


Fact: Abyssals are emo Infernal-wannabes.
Nonono. Emo Solar-wannabes.

[Lochar]

No, because Solars are prissy Infernal-wannabes because for all that they are the supreme perfection of mortals, Infernals go further!

[Turalisj]

You know what's fun? Starting a fight in the middle of Nexus between a Zenith and Slayer.

You know what's more fun? Having every single character that the Wyld Hunt, currently 10 ticks away from arriving on the scene, would classify as an 'Anathema' showing up.

[Tavar]

So, any opinion on how to do stunts? Or should they just be dropped from the game, as least as far as Test of Spite goes?

[Lix Lorn]

You know what's fun? Starting a fight in the middle of Nexus between a Zenith and Slayer.

You know what's more fun? Having every single character that the Wyld Hunt, currently 10 ticks away from arriving on the scene, would classify as an 'Anathema' showing up.
You know what's MORE fun? Spending your entire peripheral anima in one scene, including killing thirteen extras within three ticks, and shooting a party member in the chest.
And then suffering the wrath of the neverborn, in what appeared to be sharp and lashy tentacle whip form.

[Xefas]

So, any opinion on how to do stunts? Or should they just be dropped from the game, as least as far as Test of Spite goes?

Considering that a 1 die stunt is literally anything more descriptive than "I attack.", I think that would be a safe assumption for PCs to get on pretty much every action. 2 die stunts require a bit of effort. Also keep in mind that most NPCs are not allowed to get the bonus for stunts. Only notable NPCs are allowed to at all, and even then, only rarely.

[Kyeudo]

So, any opinion on how to do stunts? Or should they just be dropped from the game, as least as far as Test of Spite goes?

Optimized combat in Exalted assumes that you can get a 2-die stunt on every action. If you can't, you can't sustain the Willpower costs of your paranoia Combo and die after your Willpower pool is exhausted.

[Kylarra]

In light of that, it's probably best to ignore stunts since that'll shorten your matches. :smalltongue:

[Mr.Bookworm]

I already said this, but I think the best thing to do would be to keep the dice bonus, and remove the mote/WP gain.

Also posted a recruitment thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10868204#post10868204)

[Xefas]

If you take a potted plant from Creation to Malfeas, does photosynthesizing Ligier's light turn it into a Creature of Darkness?

Is it an evil plant?

[Jokasti]

If you take a potted plant from Creation to Malfeas, does photosynthesizing Ligier's light turn it into a Creature of Darkness?

Is it an evil plant?

One of the things I love about Ligier shining over Creation again is the green plants dying, and the red/orange plants becoming dominant due to like chlorophyll and carotenoids and stuff.

[golentan]

If you take a potted plant from Creation to Malfeas, does photosynthesizing Ligier's light turn it into a Creature of Darkness?

Is it an evil plant?

1) No.

2) Yes. All plants are plotting murder at all times. But it's unrelated to being in malfeas.

[Urpriest]

If you take a potted plant from Creation to Malfeas, does photosynthesizing Ligier's light turn it into a Creature of Darkness?

Is it an evil plant?

Trick question. It was an evil plant to begin with, as the Jadefolk know well. :durkon:

[Sanguine]

If you take a potted plant from Creation to Malfeas, does photosynthesizing Ligier's light turn it into a Creature of Darkness?

Is it an evil plant?

No. It just withers and dies. There's all that poison and gunk in the air remember. Also I believe it is stated in several places that Ligier's light is inimical to most of Creation's flora.

[Xefas]

Final Conclusion: Carrots and Tomatoes are objectively evil.

[Tavar]

Are there rules for creationg god/elemental/ghost characters? And, if so, where are they?

[Xefas]

Are there rules for creationg god/elemental/ghost characters? And, if so, where are they?

Pg 170 of the Roll of Glorious Divinity vol 1.

[Sanguine]

Pg 170 of the Roll of Glorious Divinity vol 1.

Except the Ghosts they are in the Second Roll of Glorious Divinity.

[Xefas]

Had often joked about the innuendo of Sol having a +1 Ride specialty for Luna.

Just realized that Luna has a +3 Ride specialty for Gaia.

God dammit.

[tonberrian]

I'm not sure that plants can qualify under the label of "Creature of Darkness".

Also, tomatoes can't be evil. Bob the Tomato is a tomato.

Also also, rules for playing Gods/Elementals is in the Roll of Glorious Divininty Volume I.

[meschlum]

Also, meschlum... I love you so much.

I quite agree with this sentiment.

Yay! Cult ranking might increase if I can find the xp.

Have a cookie.

Refining the Art of Battle

Just as Sorcery does not belong to Creation, the Fair Folk are outsiders, endowed with talents that have their own logic but shall forever remain beyond the understanding of the Creation-born. Some of the Raksha are lured into Creation by the promises of Martial Arts, means of refining and defining the self until the world must follow.

Even fewer are those who seek to combine Sorcery and Martial Arts, as neither comes easily to the Fair Folk. Instead, these rare Raksha rely on the Exalted to do the heavy lifting, contributing the mad genius of the Wyld to the final endeavor, making it possible where others need to deal with the necessary work.

When such an Exalt can be convinced to swear to follow the precepts of Raksha warfare, they find their magical and martial talents vastly expanded. they also usually seek to hunt down and destroy the &$@# Fair Folk who tricked them into this, as they cannot see the true potential they have gained. Typically, they succeed, and do their best to forget they were ever involved in the matter.

Still, there are rumors...


1-dot Adjuration
Confers Millipede Mind, which has no mechanical benefit for the one gaining it (besides being forced to commit one mote to it forever).

Why?

Because it enables the following Martial Arts and Sorcery based attack:

WOOD DRAGON CLEAVAGE!!!

That is all.


A variant that (horror!) has mechanical benefits would involve adding Armament of Flesh (as another 1-dot Adjuration, or raising the Art to 3 dots). This would turn a... body part... into a weapon. Capable of parrying lethal attacks, and inflicting same.

Real Fey Martial Arts don't wear pants.

[Tavar]

Not having looked over Celestial Monkey Style, is there something wrong with it?

[Sanguine]

Ah, meschlum. You always bring a smile to my face.

Edit: It has a Charm specifically for hitting people in the groin. Which is delightful. Aside from that it could do with being based more on Sun Wukong. Oh you meant mechanically? No, idea.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Not having looked over Celestial Monkey Style, is there something wrong with it?

It's okay. Some poor/odd design decisions, but out of the CMAs and up in the Scroll of the Monk, it's one of the decent ones.

[a_humble_lich]

OK, I have a couple questions. First, say I'm a Lunar in Creation who knows Ash and Tears Banquet, and I take the form of a ghost. Am I immaterial? The knack doesn't let me emulate essence based powers, but in general "constant of effortless powers usually function." And for a ghost being immaterial in creation isn't a power, in fact it takes an Arcanos to materialize.

If the answer is yes, then if it any different if they take a demon or god form (who are also naturally immaterial)?

Edit: And can I join the cult of the God of Raksha in Creation too?

[Tavar]

Not sure about the others, but the demon form has been explicitly stated to give you its material form.

[Mr.Bookworm]

There's not a God of Raksha, unless you count Luna. Anything not covered or created by Fate of Creation doesn't have a God (vast oversimplification, but it's roughly correct)

[Sanguine]

There's not a God of Raksha, unless you count Luna. Anything not covered or created by Fate of Creation doesn't have a God (vast oversimplification, but it's roughly correct)

Except Commoner Raksha are not Outside Fate.

Also there's the Envoy to the Demon City. Or something like that. Her official domain falls outside the purview of Fate.

[tonberrian]

So, any opinion on how to do stunts? Or should they just be dropped from the game, as least as far as Test of Spite goes?

I like the idea of just assuming 2-die stunts for every rolled action.

[Kylarra]

It's really just more dice being rolled since both sides would get the +2 dice bonus, bar the actual dungeoncrawl version.

[Tavar]

Especially since if I did that, I'd have to at least disallow the willpower regain. Most likely, both that and the motes.

[meschlum]

Edit: And can I join the cult of the God of Raksha in Creation too?

He's retired, I tell you! Retired! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10818736&postcount=1139)

Though I suppose some use could be found for any gossamer, ambrosia, soulsteel, or vitriol that reaches the Old Gods Resting Home. With over nine thousand retired gods and one bathroom, there are issues to deal with.

That, or asking questions about the Fair Folk seems to work quite for summoning him.

[The Rose Dragon]

Also there's the Envoy to the Demon City. Or something like that. Her official domain falls outside the purview of Fate.

Verumpira, the Ambassador, is a he. He also holds one of the coolest artifacts in the game, the word "submission" given physical form.

[tonberrian]

Especially since if I did that, I'd have to at least disallow the willpower regain. Most likely, both that and the motes.

Why would you have to do that?

[Tavar]

Plus, that position doesn't seem a 'natural' position. He's assigned that because the gods don't trust the Yozi(with good reason), but I don't think the position itself gives him power/athuroity. That comes from Heaven, which is nominally behind him.


And, I'd have to remove it, because otherwise you have infinite perfect defenses/combos.

[The Rose Dragon]

And, I'd have to remove it, because otherwise you have infinite perfect defenses/combos.

You don't have to remove it. You just have to realize that, compared to 1-die stunts, 2- and 3-die stunts are supposed to be very infrequently awarded. And that they are awards (by the pattern spiders), not laws of physics.

[Kylarra]

There is a level of tedium involved if each individual post needs to be judged for a reward,

[Tavar]

I like the idea of just assuming 2-die stunts for every rolled action.


You don't have to remove it. You just have to realize that, compared to 1-die stunts, 2- and 3-die stunts are supposed to be very infrequently awarded. And that they are awards (by the pattern spiders), not laws of physics.

True. I was specifically referring to the above quote. Plus, I dislike that method for other reasons.

Now, the other problem, is that Stunts are a subjective reward that needs to be judged case by case. That's just a huge time delay.

[The Rose Dragon]

There is a level of tedium involved if each individual post needs to be judged for a reward,

That kind of comes with stunts, though. They are always supposed to be rewards given after consideration. Some actions won't merit any stunt awards. Most will merit a 1-die stunt. 2- and 3-die stunts get progressively rarer.

[meschlum]

Apologies for the last post. The Pattern Spiders noticed a distinct lack of Fair Folk content, and demanded that causality be rebalanced.

Thus...

The Sacred Rutabaga of the not-Heretical Cult of the Endarkenated

Creation's gods are not doing their job. If it's obvious to the Fair Folk, how much worse must it be for the mortals who live there? What's more, since mortals tend to swear on their souls when trying to bargain with the divine, who are the Raksha to refuse?

Where the Sacred Rutabaga manifests, faith in it is not only encouraged, but actively rewarded. Those asking for riches will receive them. Those begging for revenge or justice will be satisfied. Those desiring safety from the threats of the outside world - be it the Realm, the dead, or the Wyld itself - will be sheltered. Those wondering how the miracles take place will be shown.

What greater faith could there be?

5-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of the Living Kingdom: might as well go big from the start.
Ordinary Object Conjuration: anyone praying for wealth gets a resource 5 emerald the size of their hand. Every 5 ticks.
Unparallelled Terror Technique: anyone who is subject to prayers for revenge will be infected with a lethal dream-poison which will kill them over time. Only if their Conviction wavers and they make amends on time will they survive.
Manacles of Virtue: anyone whose virtues are wholly consumed by the Fair Folk will be granted 2 'virtual' dots in the virtue instead. (Custom variant)
Waypoint Knife: anyone praying for protection will be surrounded by an unbreakable barrier that lasts an hour.

If you want to give your people more benefits, make another Oneiromancy. With Artifact 5 (possible at character creation), you can have a 4-dot and a 5-dot spell, so you still have lots of options.

Heart Stealing Kiss so the Fair Folk can eat all your virtues while you're unaware, Adored by All the World so people praying for friends will get them, Behemoth Forging Meditation to grant health, strength, and Enlightenment to people praying for it...

At higher tiers of Artifact ownership (or for smaller areas of effect), you can add Fall of Night Shadows the Truth to obscure attempts at realizing the faith is heretical (or Curse of Definition while you're at it), include a Behemoth that does your smiting and rewarding for you (requires fewer artifact dots in some cases), and more.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

@Tavar: You should probably remove them from the equation entirely. It sounds like you don't want 2/3-die versions anyway because it opens up the infinite combos, and I'm sure that someone would find a way to abuse the idea of any 'assumed' bonus by taking a bunch of actions between actions or some such nonsense. I would think that stunts would work both ways if they were used properly in a PVP environment, so it all balances out anyway.

On another note: the mindset of She who Lives in Her Name looks a lot like Autochthon's mindset, or at least that of an alchemical with his Clarity turned up high enough. How did they end up with two creepy, mechanically-minded, collectivist mad scientist primordials? What's the key difference between the two, besides one of them defecting? Is it just that Autocthon is more of an inventor and She is more of a straight empirical physicist?

Also, what's all this talk about the reclamation? It sounds like a whole bunch of plot got dumped into the Return of the Scarlet Empress or something and pretty much invalidated everything I thought about the setting.

Edit: Meschlum posted while I was typing that, so it sadly includes no response to the hilarity.

[The Rose Dragon]

Autochthon is a rebel. The Principle of Hierarchy is a conformist.

Also, Return of the Scarlet Empress is emphatically not canon. It is far worse when a canon book invalidates your ideas about the setting.

[Sanguine]

Autochthon is a rebel. The Principle of Hierarchy is a conformist.

Also, Return of the Scarlet Empress is emphatically not canon. It is far worse when a canon book invalidates your ideas about the setting.

I believe the Yozi Charms are Canon. But yeah aside from that it's no more Canon than any other published adventure.

[The Rose Dragon]

I believe the Yozi Charms are Canon. But yeah aside from that it's no more Canon than any other published adventure.

From what I can tell, there are two canon things in the book: the write-ups of Scarlet Empress (non-akuma) and the Ebon Dragon, and the Solar Charms in one of the chapters.

[Sanguine]

From what I can tell, there are two canon things in the book: the write-ups of Scarlet Empress (non-akuma) and the Ebon Dragon, and the Solar Charms in one of the chapters.

Quick look through also shows the Astrology Charms. I would assume they are Canon as well even if most player will never get to use them.

[Lix Lorn]

Verumpira, the Ambassador, is a he. He also holds one of the coolest artifacts in the game, the word "submission" given physical form.
...that's pretty awesome.

[Yuki Akuma]

Basically any charms presented in Return of the Scarlet Empress are canonical.

[Cyborg Mage]

...that's pretty awesome.

Wait 'till I'm done with Thousand Torments Style.

[TheCountAlucard]

On that note, I've been thinking about just what ten Charms my stupid-powerful Dawn Caste martial artist would take in the event that the Sun kicks the bucket as per RotSE.

Chances are that I'd want to pick up Should the Sun Not Rise, so that I can still do Holy stuff. Then I'd want to pick up a Holy Charm of some sort, so I can do Holy stuff in the first place. :smalltongue: Enemy-Castigating Solar Judgment seems like a good candidate, as I qualify for it already, and it can be used with almost anything. I'd consider picking up Ink Monkey Charms (particularly Titan-Straightening Method), but I have my doubts as to whether my ST would allow them or not. It'd be nice if I could pick up Spirit-Cutting Attack, but as it is, I've only got one dot in Occult.

My Current CharmsMartial Arts Charms:
First Martial Arts Excellency
Infinite Martial Arts Mastery
Fists of Iron Technique
Sledgehammer Fist Punch
Dragon Coil Technique
Solar Hero Form
Fist of the Unconquered Sun (homebrewed Solar Mirror of One Hand Fury)
Inevitable Victory Meditation (wishing I could dump this one now, though)
Heaven Thunder Hammer
Knockout Blow
Hammer-on-Iron Technique
Horizon-Hurling Tactic
Ox-Stunning Blow

Resistance Charms:
Durability of Oak Meditation
Heroes Never Die
Iron Skin Concentration
Iron Kettle Body
Armored In Righteousness Stance
Spirit Strengthens the Skin
Adamant Skin Technique
Ox-Body Technique
Body-Mending Meditation
Essence-Gathering Temper
Willpower-Enhancing Spirit

Presence Charms:
Second Presence Excellency
Hypnotic-Tongue Technique
You Can Be More

Athletics Charms:
Second Athletics Excellency
Graceful Crane Stance
Thunderbolt Attack Prana

Integrity Charms:
Second Integrity Excellency
Integrity-Protecting Prana
Righteous Lion Defense
Temptation-Resisting Stance
Elusive Dream Defense
Transcendent Hero's Meditation
Final Ray of Light
Truth Shines Through

Favored Abilities are Resistance, Integrity, Awareness, Dodge, and Athletics.

[Kylarra]

That kind of comes with stunts, though. They are always supposed to be rewards given after consideration. Some actions won't merit any stunt awards. Most will merit a 1-die stunt. 2- and 3-die stunts get progressively rarer.Yes I realize, but in an already tedious PbP environment using an already tedious combat system, I find it simpler to just remove the stunt bonuses, rather than force them to work around Tavar's schedule to judge each and every post before the next player can make a response.

[Yuki Akuma]

Removing a basic game mechanic makes the entire Test of Spite thing pointless, though. The game is meant to be built around the assumption that people can get extra dice and motes of essence routinely. Willpower takes a bit more effort but should still pop up once or twice in a given scene.

[Kylarra]

Well, in my opinion, optimized exalted [PVP] combat is pointless, so I'm not really taken with that argument. :smalltongue:

[Tavar]

Yeah, someone else just pointed out that there are quite a few charms that use stunts. I'll have to think of the best way to implement them in a tournament.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, in my opinion, optimized exalted [PVP] combat is pointless, so I'm not really taken with that argument. :smalltongue:

Then why are you offering suggestions for something you consider pointless?


Yeah, someone else just pointed out that there are quite a few charms that use stunts. I'll have to think of the best way to implement them in a tournament.

How about - and this is going to sound crazy - actually using the guidelines presented in the book? Shocking, I know.

So any action more descriptive than "I use Essence Arrow Attack on Stoat of the Mire" is a 1-die stunt, any action that's both descriptive and uses the environment presented in some way is a 2-die stunt, and something that is both descriptive, uses the environment, and is also totally awesome is a 3-die stunt?

You can leave 1-die and 2-die stunts up to the players.

[Cyborg Mage]

It's done (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196924). Don't read this after a heavy meal.

[Tavar]

How about - and this is going to sound crazy - actually using the guidelines presented in the book? Shocking, I know.

So any action more descriptive than "I use Essence Arrow Attack on Stoat of the Mire" is a 1-die stunt, any action that's both descriptive and uses the environment presented in some way is a 2-die stunt, and something that is both descriptive, uses the environment, and is also totally awesome is a 3-die stunt?

You can leave 1-die and 2-die stunts up to the players.

The problem is that, since the book is written assuming IRL play, it's trivially easy to get 2-die stunts for the texted based format. So what qualifies needs to be changed.

Plus, generally in PvP you don't want subjective things placed in the hands of the players.

[Yuki Akuma]

Okay, how about making it objective?

Say, if you describe your attack with four sentences, it's one die. Describe it with five while taking into account the arena presented, it's two dice.

Or something. I'm sure you can think of better requirements.

[TheCountAlucard]

On another note, considering running Infernals for a few specific people. Any suggestions for houserules/homebrew/other things? I'm so glad I have BWC now...

[tonberrian]

I'm not sure infinite combos are as common as you think they are. Having a 2-die stunt on every rolled action usually means 4 motes or 1 willpower once when you're attacked, barring stunt modification magic like (Yozi) Mythos Exultant (you should probably ban actions that happen only to get stunts and therefore rewards). At that rate, if you can force a combo and at least 3 motes expended on the other guy every time you attack him, eventually his motes are going to be drained away. There is one infinite combo I am aware of that abuses Selfishness is Power, Who Strikes the Wind?'s tick long version, and Swillin's Mythos Exultant, though.

Other, more pressing issues are going to be the Gem of Adamant Skin plus that one charm in the whip based MA in Scroll of the Monk that prevents bashing damage from rolling over into lethal, all the SMA's except the one in Glories: Maidens, and Lightspeed Body Dynamics.

That said, I wouldn't want to try this any time soon, since we're due a huge errata to the basic system soon, which is claimed to change the entire dynamic of the paranoia suite.

[Yuki Akuma]

On another note, considering running Infernals for a few specific people. Any suggestions for houserules/homebrew/other things? I'm so glad I have BWC now...

Definitely consider giving them at least one Excellency for free. Otherwise Infernals have a huge XP tax for raising their Essence. Especially if they try to diversify.

[IcarusWings]

On another note: the mindset of She who Lives in Her Name looks a lot like Autochthon's mindset, or at least that of an alchemical with his Clarity turned up high enough. How did they end up with two creepy, mechanically-minded, collectivist mad scientist primordials? What's the key difference between the two, besides one of them defecting? Is it just that Autocthon is more of an inventor and She is more of a straight empirical physicist?


I believe the main difference is that SWLihN looks at the world and wants it, indeed forces it, to conform to her beliefs about what it should be. Whereas Autochthon studies the world and uses what he discovers to create something new.

[Xefas]

Swilly can force order onto the world. But she also creates it.

They both have themes of tech, and physics, and science and all that stuff, but the main difference is that Swilly has this big theme of rigid hierarchy and conformism that Auto doesn't have, whereas Auto has a big theme of tools, improvisation, and spontaneous creativity that Swilly does not.

You can also see big Yozi similarities between Malfeas and Isidoros. They're both giant, heavily solipsistic entities with themes of crazy strength, asserting dominance, overkill, and not listening to people. But Malfeas is a King. Isidoros is a pig.

Primordials can share themes, certainly, and I think that if we knew more about the unnamed among the 23, we'd see even more such similarities.

EDIT: So, Auto is the mad scientist. Swilly is the shy but brilliant lab assistant who goes along with her boss's crazy schemes and runs damage control for him when his psychotic genius overflows.

[SurlySeraph]

I'm not sure infinite combos are as common as you think they are. Having a 2-die stunt on every rolled action usually means 4 motes or 1 willpower once when you're attacked, barring stunt modification magic like (Yozi) Mythos Exultant (you should probably ban actions that happen only to get stunts and therefore rewards). At that rate, if you can force a combo and at least 3 motes expended on the other guy every time you attack him, eventually his motes are going to be drained away. There is one infinite combo I am aware of that abuses Selfishness is Power, Who Strikes the Wind?'s tick long version, and Swillin's Mythos Exultant, though.

Yes, but given that this is a contest, having to play it out draining one mote at a time would be a total pain. Playing it out in such a way that using a combo actually drains your willpower, such that you can't get it back just by writing a few more sentences, will lead to much faster and interesting combats than two players writing variations on "Paranoia combo, whatever you spent your action on didn't work, I have a net loss of three motes, here is a description of my stunt" over and over.

[Kyeudo]

That kind of comes with stunts, though. They are always supposed to be rewards given after consideration. Some actions won't merit any stunt awards. Most will merit a 1-die stunt. 2- and 3-die stunts get progressively rarer.

2 die stunts are fairly easy to get. Mention a part of the enviroment and you're done. "I flip off the wall and slash at his head" meets the textbook definition of a 2-die stunt.

[Indon]

The problem is that, since the book is written assuming IRL play, it's trivially easy to get 2-die stunts for the texted based format. So what qualifies needs to be changed.

Plus, generally in PvP you don't want subjective things placed in the hands of the players.

Since the Test of Spite is about a laboratory environment style game, I don't think you should run stunts descriptively. Instead, give everyone a "Stunt Budget" of a certain number of 1, 2, and 3-dot stunts they may invoke nondescriptively at will. Give a bunch of 1's, a few 2's, and one or two 3's. This simulates stunt usage without requiring any adjudication at all.

Yes, it's boring, and a horrible hack on the Exalted system. But the Test of Spite is not about immersive storytelling, it's about mechanical optimization and strategic/tactical options. So I think that making stunt usage into another strategic/tactical option would best reflect that.

[The Rose Dragon]

2 die stunts are fairly easy to get. Mention a part of the enviroment and you're done. "I flip off the wall and slash at his head" meets the textbook definition of a 2-die stunt.

If the ST finds it appropriate. Stunts are always adjudicated by the Storyteller. If an ST says it's not a 2-die stunt, it's not a 2-die stunt.

[Tavar]

And therein lies the problem. Which is also why I asked for assistance.

I do think stunts should be part of the challenge, but I'm not really sure how to work them in, and be consistent at the same time.

Might end up going with the stunt budget idea.

[Psyborg]

On another note: the mindset of She who Lives in Her Name looks a lot like Autochthon's mindset, or at least that of an alchemical with his Clarity turned up high enough. How did they end up with two creepy, mechanically-minded, collectivist mad scientist primordials? What's the key difference between the two, besides one of them defecting? Is it just that Autocthon is more of an inventor and She is more of a straight empirical physicist?

I think so, yes. Autocthon is indeed a creature of order, but he's also a creature of...rational improvement, invention out of intelligent planning, creation guided by experimentation, etc.? As opposed to creation straight out of dreams, ideas, passions, or pure chaos; Autobot never created anything without drawing up a plan for it first. But he did lots of experiments, sometimes unintentional ones, often with unexpected results (see also: invention of soulsteel), and he was sufficiently fascinated by the outcomes of these experiments to alter future creations accordingly.

SWLiHN, to borrow some DnD terminology for a moment here, is a paragon of pure Lawful Neutral. If anyone's familiar with the concept of psionic godminds (from Dreamscarred Press' excellent psionic suplpements for 3.5e DnD), were the guiding sentience of the Plane of Mechanus to ascend to being a godmind, I think it would look very like She. I'm oversimplifying, of course, but she's that orderly.

She also reminds me of the Auditors, from Discworld. :smallbiggrin:

Take, for example, the problem of maintaining the Loom of Fate. Autocthon designed/invented/created artificial, self-reproducing gods, the Pattern Spiders, who are almost (if not literally) infinitely complex machines, to manage and contain the chaos at a level low enough to keep Creation from exploding. SWLiHN would have preferred a purely mechanical automaton that wove the strands of Fate into perfect geometric or fractal patterns, and then raged when some Essence user spoiled the symmetry.

Autocthon's idea of art is to create something that's self-maintaining within a stable, generally accurate range, because it was cleverly and logically designed. SWLiHN's idea of art is to create a truly perfect representation of a Sierpinski triangle, or something similar.

At least, that's how I see them. I'm not sure it's quite canon, and YMMV even if it is, but it works.

(By the way, I see SWLiHN's major contribution to the basic fabric of Creation having been fundamental mathematical values: the values of e and pi (which she probably knows exactly), the concept of i (which is probably involved in creating magitech that accesses Elsewhere), the equality of distance in different dimensions (so a meter north is the same distance as a meter west), etc. Autocthon's was the foundation of the experimental principle- the idea that if the starting conditions are the same, the outcome will be the same, even if the experiments are performed at different times, or places, or observed with different instruments. Sort of a...specific subclause of general causality.)

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

...the main difference is that Swilly has this big theme of rigid hierarchy and conformism that Auto doesn't have, whereas Auto has a big theme of tools, improvisation, and spontaneous creativity that Swilly does not.
The Great Maker demands a good measure of conformity, comrade, but you are right; She HATES to improvise, while Auto is all for the unexpected, cheeky ideas.


Primordials can share themes, certainly, and I think that if we knew more about the unnamed among the 23, we'd see even more such similarities.
Agreed. I guess it would be kind of silly to expect no thematic overlap. You can't contrast something if there is nothing to not match up with. Even though they each know their way around the other's games, I think there's also a sense that Auto plays with legos and circuit boards while Swho Lihn plays with spreadsheets and dominoes.


So, Auto is the mad scientist. Swilly is the shy but brilliant lab assistant who goes along with her boss's crazy schemes and runs damage control for him when his psychotic genius overflows.
That works!

Edit @Psyborg: Also good! Though, my take on it is that She would have been the one to come up with empiricism in general. Autocthon came up with ways to use scientific observations, but was more concerned with ways to pass knowledge on to others - his favorite inventions were technology and dogma. Her favorite inventions would probably be the laws of gravity and thermodynamics.

She was probably pretty ticked when her little brother started pointing out the loopholes in her rules and exploiting them.

[Psyborg]

<cool stuff snipped> Her favorite inventions would probably be the laws of gravity and thermodynamics.

She was probably pretty ticked when her little brother started pointing out the loopholes in her rules and exploiting them.

I love it. Yeah, definitely...*grin* And good for him, too.

I also wonder if Autocthon's affection for mortals was inspired by the fact that they, too, are inventors and experimentors. Like, I can see the first time a mortal performed a deliberate experiment and redesigned something based on it being the moment when Autobot started viewing them as something more than just another ongoing experiment.

(Now, granted, that doesn't mean that he ever even approached actually comprehending mortals and mortality on their own level, but there's also no doubt that he knew they were something special, even if he was way off on what.)

[Kylarra]

Then why are you offering suggestions for something you consider pointless?Hey, just because I consider it pointless doesn't mean I can't be vaguely curious about the outcome and other people's opinions. If we assume that both players are getting their choice of 4m/1wp twice per action (once on the attack and once for defense), the game will prolong pretty much indefinitely.

I do find the stunt budget to be a decent enough compromise though, even though it's essentially just storing more healthpacks.

[Xefas]

So, the way Holden has been talking about the Lunar overhaul, I'm thinking they may be able to crawl their way up out of "definitively last place" to "marginally last place" in my ladder of favorite Exalt types. Amidst several minor examples of fixing terrible charms, he posted this rough draft of a keyword that will apparently play a major role in Lunar charm design:

New Keyword
Protean: The Lunar Exalted are blessed with their patron’s gift of change, and may call upon it to enhance their personal prowess. If a Lunar possesses a form in her Heart’s Blood library which resonates with a Charm with this Keyword, she may reflexively shapeshift into that form at no cost for the duration of the Charm, reflexively returning to the shape she previously held when the Charm’s duration expires; or she may pay a one-mote surcharge to remain in that form after the Charm’s duration expires. Shapeshifting in this fashion adds three dice to all actions enhanced or created by the Charm, or grants another benefit detailed in the text of the Charm. These do not count as dice added by a Charm.

Resonant forms are forms which could conceivably enhance the performance of the Charm in question. For example, Jaws of the River Dragon might be enhanced by the shape of a gorilla, bear, anaconda or blood-ape (all shapes suitable for grappling), while Ferocious Biting Tooth might resonate with any overwhelmingly powerful shape—a yeddim, aurochs, or river dragon, perhaps. Storytellers are encouraged to be lenient when deciding what forms are appropriate (almost any powerful creature is appropriate for Impressions of Strength, for example, from a tyrant lizard to a ram).

Shapes cease being valid resonant forms for the purpose of the Protean keyword after the Lunar has already assumed them once within a scene.

/Crowned With Fury
"Discuss"

[Kylarra]

That's pretty awesome. Lunars are/were one of my favorite exalt types. I look forward to seeing where they go with that.

[Psyborg]

Protean keyword sounds very cool; I like it. *wonders if we'll see it showing up on some Martial Arts charms as a kind of Lunar-only aspect to them, much like the Prayer Strip keyword is for Sidereals*

Also, wild speculation on Exalted Test of Spite:Given limited stunting and assuming characters have a way to get and stay in attack range of each other, everything is going to come down to mote pool size, efficiency of PDs, and charm-based mote-regen. Which means that an active ToS will quickly determine two things:

--Whether high-movement kiting archers are Better Than Everything (assuming the normal spectrum of defenses, this probably comes down to The Freedom Stone and Gem of Perfect Balance to defeat clinch, knockdown, and blockade movement, and the archer's Per+Awareness versus the melee guy's Dex+Stealth to keep track of him and keep hitting him. Thrown with Space-Warping Needles may also be a viable tactic, negating most/all of the melee-guy's cover at the cost of motes spent recalling your needle and most of your comfortable kiting range.)

--Which Exalt type has the best Reactor and/or Overdrive charms. Starting mote pool size is also helpful here, but regain is probably most important.

Soak-based Abyssals, Infernals, and akuma will all fail _hard_ due to the ease with which the other types (particularly Solars, of course) can get access to Holy.

Celestial Monkey Style will be the most commonly practiced Martial Art at greater-than-starting XP levels, for two reasons: one, when mastered, it's compatible with any armor and any attack made with Martial Arts (so: unarmed, Martial Arts weapons, and anything that's a Form Weapon for some other style you have), and two, it gets you a scene-length effective doubling of Parry DV. Ideally, combine with Chaos Targe to attempt to parry unblockables as if they weren't. Given the fact that DV optimization will necessarily be important in a limited-Willpower match, CMS+Chaos Targe becomes quite nice.

For Eclipses, Moonshadows, and (if they can deal with their small mote pools and complete lack of mote-regain) Sidereals, Defense of Shining Joy + Hauberk of Bells gets Performance to DDV twice, PDV once, all Dex-based dice pools once, and ignores all penalties to DDV, at the price of a charm, a four-dot artifact, and an eight-mote attunement.

Wood Dragon Style as far as the Form also seems like it might be nice for a soak-and-regen strategy, though I think those will go down hard to Grand Killsticks and anything with aggravated damage, so it won't actually end up being optimal.

If allowed for non-Sidereals, Violet Bier of Sorrows will of course see frequent use as a one-charm dip (Yay, double Join Battle successes!), and Blade of the Battle Maiden may become a key component of Grand Killstick builds, as even the post-errata version is pretty darned strong. And scene-length, which is critical with limited regen.

Terrestrials' free-use-of-reflexives is going to be extremely relevant in starting-level play, but become rapidly useless as XP ramps up. Except possibly for Terrestrial Akuma, if they're even allowed. *shudder*

The Malfeas, Cecelyne, and SWLiHN Mythos Exultants will either be very useful or completely useless, depending on how high/low the stunt budget is set at.

Due to Overdrive drip and free Holy, Glorious Solar <weapon> will be the standard for Solars. We may see the occasional Crimson Bow.

The last point is nothing new, but given the importance of constant or scene-length abilities to boost pools without constant mote expenditure and charm activations, the Brutal Attack Merit + Demon Ink Tattoo + Green Iron Heart + Prosthetic of Clockwork Elegance combo is going to be really popular, considering that for 13BP and 13m committed it can get you:
Base Melee attack pools on Str rather than Dex
+6 Str
+5 Stm
+2 Dex
+1 Melee, +1 Dodge, +1 Awareness/Resistance/Integrity/Stealth/Athletics/etc., or +2 Melee
+3 specialty Melee (insert high-Rate weapon of choice here)

...all of which adds up to +10-11 dice to your attacks, +1-1.5 DDV, +3-3.5 PDV (or +6-7 if using Celestial Monkey Style), and (assuming Ox-Bodies equal to Stamina), +5-20 health levels, depending on whether you're a Sidereal or an Infernal/Lunar, not counting extra Dying levels. Also, none of the above counts towards dice caps.

The downside, of course, is you lose instantly to forced-deattunement.

Regardless, I look forward with interest to seeing the results.

[Sanguine]

I'm liking the Protean. Feels like something they always should have had.

[Turalisj]

It's like submodules for alchies.

[Tavar]

Just to note, there is a ban list up in the TOS thread. Thanks for identifying some other things that need tweaked, though.

[Lochar]

If you allow Kimbery charms, I can technically get an arbitrarily high dodge DV.

And I can layer 4000 doses of a poison on a weapon, so all I have to do is hit you once and you get at least a -2000 internal penalty.

[a_humble_lich]

If you allow Kimbery charms, I can technically get an arbitrarily high dodge DV.

And I can layer 4000 doses of a poison on a weapon, so all I have to do is hit you once and you get at least a -2000 internal penalty.

Then it's a good thing they aren't allowing Infernals. :smallsmile:

(Although I think that is because of lack-of-book issues instead of balance issues.)

[TheCountAlucard]

Then it's a good thing they aren't allowing Infernals.Err, from what I saw, it was just a ban on akuma. :smallconfused:

EDIT: Nevermind, was just looking at the banlist itself. :smallsigh:

[Tavar]

Note the allowed list, in the first spoiler box. Specifically:

Due to resources available, only Solars, Dragonblooded, Lunars, Sidereal, Abyssals, Gods, Elementals, and Ghosts are currently allowed in the game.

[a_humble_lich]

There is a ban on akuma, but in the character creation guidelines Infernals are conspicuously absent (along with Alchemicals, but my memory fails) from the allowed character types due to "lack of resources."

Edit: Oh Five-Score Fellowship, why do you hate me so!

[TheCountAlucard]

Note the allowed list, in the first spoiler box. Specifically:


There is a ban on akuma, but in the character creation guidelines Infernals are conspicuously absent (along with Alchemicals, but my memory fails) from the allowed character types due to "lack of resources."Looks like I get to be the Sidereal today! :smallamused:

[Tavar]

Considering I sent a PM saying the same thing at 8:01....:smallwink:

Also, Celestial Monkey doubles your DV? Might have to expand the ban list a bit.

[SurlySeraph]

Protean is just so very right.

[The Rose Dragon]

Terrestrials' free-use-of-reflexives is going to be extremely relevant in starting-level play, but become rapidly useless as XP ramps up. Except possibly for Terrestrial Akuma, if they're even allowed. *shudder*

Even if Terrestrial akuma are allowed, how is the free reflexives rule relevant? It's not like they can use Infernal reflexive Charms as innate powers.

[Xefas]

Would a theoretical Fu-Sion-Ha spell that functions exactly like Unity of the Closed Fist but with only a maximum of two participants be Terrestrial or Celestial circle? (Assuming that the casting cost was maybe scaled to 20m if it was Terrestrial and 30m for Celestial.)

[Mr.Bookworm]

Would a theoretical Fu-Sion-Ha spell that functions exactly like Unity of the Closed Fist but with only a maximum of two participants be Terrestrial or Celestial circle? (Assuming that the casting cost was maybe scaled to 20m if it was Terrestrial and 30m for Celestial.)

Neither, because Unity of the Closed Fist is pretty broken and doesn't need another easier-to-get version?[/hasnotseenyourspell]

If you fix UotCF, then sure, but I don't know what that would look like.

Also, Protean, hell yeah.


Also, Celestial Monkey doubles your DV? Might have to expand the ban list a bit.

Tavar, if you ban every single thing in Exalted that could possibly be broken, we're not actually going to play Exalted. Exalted is a pretty inherently broken system, and overuse of the banhammer will result in both the ToS being not fun, and it not being representative of Exalted. In my opinion, it'd be better if you just ban the things in the system that are broken beyond repair, and allow the other stuff in.

[The Rose Dragon]

In my opinion, it'd be better if you just ban the things in the system that are broken beyond repair, and allow the other stuff in.

Yes, but if you ban Chapter 4 of the core rulebook, how are we gonna decide how combat is played out? :smalltongue:

[Kylarra]

Yes, but if you ban Chapter 4 of the core rulebook, how are we gonna decide how combat is played out? :smalltongue:Well played sir.

[Xefas]

But if Unity of the Closed Fist gets changed, how will the Yozi use all of those five kilomote charms they have?

Charizard
Cost: 5,000m 1wp; Mins: Essence 10; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK, Charizard
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: [Malfeas] Cosmic Principle

."-,.__
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At Essence 11+, it is also Charizard.

[meschlum]

You already know how to get Giga-motes.

For a functional fire breathing lizard, 5-dot behemoths are your friend.

Fire Breath is a 4-dot attuned artifact weapon analog.

Soak in the 50/50 range (and aggravated soak around 25).

Flight, massive size, half a dozen flavors of unkillability...

Was there ever any doubt?


Of course, we can make this interesting and skip the obvious route.

Would a Tyrant Lizard with ~200 mutation points suffice as a starting point? One that channels essence, is fully sentient, and (as a special one time only bonus) eats souls? Shape Forged Servant and the varied Grace Forging Charms.

Does it need to look like its master? Evoke it while under the effect of Assumption of the Person's Heart, and it'll look like whoever you're disguised as.

Do you need a few hundred of its spawn to have a party with the nice people bringing the torches and pitchforks? Bestial Transformation will turn any number of them into mini versions of the Big Guy - and even if they are much weaker, the rest of the mob (and they) will be utterly convinced that they are, in fact, the horrible monsters they appear to be.

Oh, wait. Happy thoughts, happy thoughts.

Emotion Weaving Style will rewrite the Motivation of all mortals nearby so tat their one purpose in life is to feed themselves to dance around and throw flowers at the beast. Translucent Dream Sheathing Technology ensures that it can, and will, fit inside any properly made ball - and be utterly loyal to the one who captures it that way (best not make it sentient, in this case).

Principle of Worlds means that each time a fight starts, strange beasts appear and begin to call out attack names. You haven't lived until you've seen a small tentacle demon call out "Panther, I choose you! Use Glorious Thunderbolt!" when your iconic Solar Circle goes against the Mask of Winters, to have a mini-Luna respond on the other side: "Maskie! Show them how you've leveled up! Use Pointless Intricate Plot!"

[Cyborg Mage]

Ahem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10213653&postcount=174). I may just have beaten you to the punch there.

[Lix Lorn]

And I stole the concept, ran with it, have a word document full of artifacts and notes on setting, and am eventually running a game on it.
...
With 240% more DBs!

[Cyborg Mage]

Where are my royalties, then?

I DEMAND MY AMBROSIA, DAMNIT!

EDIT: At least a link to all this would be nice.

[Lix Lorn]

I haven't posted it yet, but I can send you the word document if you want?
(starts organising a dot of Cult for you)

[Cyborg Mage]

Nah, I'll wait. Don't have Word on this laptop. If you can convert it to PDF or something, that would work.

[Lix Lorn]

I'm not completely sure how, but I could just copy it into a PM for you.

[Cyborg Mage]

It should be an option in the Print menu.

[Lix Lorn]

I guess, but it'd be easier just to put it in a PM. DXD

[Friv]

And I can layer 4000 doses of a poison on a weapon, so all I have to do is hit you once and you get at least a -2000 internal penalty.

I don't recall the Charm in question, but does it specifically stack poison penalties? The usual way that getting hit by poison works is that they happen one after the other, not all at once.

[Lochar]

Spiteful Sea Tincture. It specifically notes that you can put multiple doses on a weapon, and getting hit by the weapon drops all doses on you.

The rules for poisons in Core states that the Penalty is either the listed Penalty, or the number of doses in your system, whichever is higher.

[Reynard]

That charm needs the "Chicanery: No" keyword.

[Friv]

The rules for poisons in Core states that the Penalty is either the listed Penalty, or the number of doses in your system, whichever is higher.

That is the part that I missed. I never saw that rule, and we've always just been going with the listed Penalty, regardless of how many doses you're affected by.

[Lochar]

That charm needs the "Chicanery: No" keyword.

But it's fun! The charm's duration is even Instant, so you don't have to commit the 2 motes a dose or anything!

[Reynard]

...Does the poison explicitly stick around? If not, then the poison only exists for the instant in which you attack.

[Lochar]

Yeah, it's a standard poison. 7L/action, Toxicity 4, Tolerance 0, Penalty -4

[Reynard]

No, I mean, does it explicitly exist on your weapon for longer than the charm's duration? Existing in the target's body is another matter.

[Lochar]

That's a fair question. I'd have to go look at the wording again on it then.

[Kylarra]

Reading the charm directly would imply no. It has duration of instant and a second repurchase would allow you to give it a duration of 1 month, but that form explicitly limits activation to 1 dose/hit.

[Lochar]

Oh well, it wasn't horribly important to a character. And makes it less broken.

I can still get an arbitrarily high dodge DV though.

[Kylarra]

Last I checked, ToS explicitly removes infinite loops on the grounds that the hounds will eat you or something, so while RAW abuse is amusing, chicanery:no should apply.

[Lochar]

Not an infinite loop. Just two charms that work to add all your negative intimacies to your Dodge DV for an instant, and the other allows you to have as many negative intimacies as you want.

[Kylarra]

While I concede that it's not technically a loop, anything that reaches to arbitrarily large is useless for an arena style match and should be summarily banned and the character tossed into oblivion.

[Lochar]

Yeah, for some reason my ST wouldn't let me start with a list of things she hates. You know, the names of every specific mortal in Creation or something like that.

[Lochar]

So anyways, to drag us onto a new topic.


What would happen if you managed to get the Wedding Band of the Ebon Dragon onto the UCS?

[Cyborg Mage]

Dude, DON'T. Dividing by zero would have lesser consequences.

[Xefas]

What would happen if you managed to get the Wedding Band of the Ebon Dragon onto the UCS?

Anything with Essence 10 will have all the Ebon Dragon charms, and become a new Ebon Dragon. Sol, Chejop, the Ebon Dragon's Neverborn, etc.

[Sanguine]

Anything with Essence 10 will have all the Ebon Dragon charms, and become a new Ebon Dragon. Sol, Chejop, the Ebon Dragon's Neverborn, etc.

Until they take the ring off. Right? Right?

[Cyborg Mage]

Well, for a start, that would be exactly like combining two complete opposites (See also: matter+antimatter). Secondly, if the above was even possible, that means he becomes a Yozi slap bang in the middle of Yu-Shan. Given their oaths, the consequences can't be good. And thirdly, even if he manages to subvert the above two, he then has an entire city of Sidereals and their guests to deal with. All in all, not a good idea.

[Xefas]

Until they take the ring off. Right? Right?

Yes. Although, while they have the ring on, they have an Urge to "Love, Honor, and Obey the Ebon Dragon". Which, you're now the Ebon Dragon. So, I'm not sure how much they'd want to do so.


Secondly, if the above was even possible, that means he becomes a Yozi slap bang in the middle of Yu-Shan. Given their oaths, the consequences can't be good. And thirdly, even if he manages to subvert the above two, he then has an entire city of Sidereals and their guests to deal with. All in all, not a good idea.

He'll also have Ebon Dragon Pantheon Unfurling. So, I'm not sure what would happen if the Unconquered Sun got Fetish-Deathed as the Ebon Dragon.

EDIT: Actually, I don't think anything would happen, so long as he still had the ring on. He'd still have all the Ebon Dragon's charms. Huh...

[knightMARE]

Yeah, for some reason my ST wouldn't let me start with a list of things she hates. You know, the names of every specific mortal in Creation or something like that.

Well, if I was ST, I might have been sweet talked if you presented me a hand written list of every single mortal.

[Lochar]

I only need the first fifty or so for the rest to not matter. I could have come up with a viable list of things. :P

[Sanguine]

Yes. Although, while they have the ring on, they have an Urge to "Love, Honor, and Obey the Ebon Dragon". Which, you're now the Ebon Dragon. So, I'm not sure how much they'd want to do so.

Well Yozi Cosmic Principle Makes you lose all your other Charms. Including presumably his I get ten more successes then you Charm. That is a Charm right? Or is it an innate function of his virtues I can't remember. Well even if it's his virtues I'd still say he loses it because of the Ebon Dragon Charm that cuts away Virtues.

So then it's just a simple matter of a ridiculously high Larceny roll to steal the ring of his finger without him noticing. Now the question becomes does him having become the Ebon Dragon have any permanent repercussions? For an Exalt it obviously would as the moment they learn Cosmic Principle their Exaltation flies away.




He'll also have Ebon Dragon Pantheon Unfurling. So, I'm not sure what would happen if the Unconquered Sun got Fetish-Deathed as the Ebon Dragon.

That is an interesting question.

[Mr.Bookworm]

There's a statement by hatewheel or Holden I'll try to find to the effect that if you take a Charm that changes your base nature, you can't lose it by any means.

So if TUS puts on the Wedding Band, he'll turn into the Ebon Dragon. Permanently.


Yes. Although, while they have the ring on, they have an Urge to "Love, Honor, and Obey the Ebon Dragon". Which, you're now the Ebon Dragon. So, I'm not sure how much they'd want to do so.

The Yozis are already one big circle self-jerk, so not much?

[Xefas]

Well Yozi Cosmic Principle Makes you lose all your other Charms. Including presumably his I get ten more successes then you Charm. That is a Charm right? Or is it an innate function of his virtues I can't remember. Well even if it's his virtues I'd still say he loses it because of the Ebon Dragon Charm that cuts away Virtues.

I think its his godly panoply. Which, no longer being a god, I don't think he'd have.



So if TUS puts on the Wedding Band, he'll turn into the Ebon Dragon. Permanently.

If this is true, it eliminates a lot of interesting questions. But raises a few more. :smallconfused:

[TheCountAlucard]

Also, you can't remove it without removing the finger, IIRC.

[Cyborg Mage]

Yes, but what's one finger against the whole of Creation? He's got ninteen more. And, being the Unconquered Sun and all, he can probably grow it back or something...

[Lochar]

And if he goes into his thirty-two armed form, he's still got 159 left.

[Cyborg Mage]

Wait, he can do what now?

Also, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196536) still needs a ST.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Wait, he can do what now?

Also, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196536) still needs a ST.

Scroll of Errata adds a 32-armed final boss form for the Unconquered Sun, which he incidentally has to suppress his Temperance to use.

Also, the general consensus among the community (such as it were) is that Kyeudo's warstrider fix is rockin', right?

[Tavar]

Yes, though there's surprisingly little testing that backs that up, at least from what I've heard. Still, I'm in a game that will be using it once we unlock our Zoids, and I'm running a gundam-inspired game using it, so that might change.

[Lochar]

Zords, not Zoids. Wrong genre.

But yes, we'll be stress testing those rules in another month or so, the way the game is going.

[SurlySeraph]

It is indeed rocking.

[Lochar]

New random thought:

The Ebon Dragon has been in the throws of Limit Break since they were locked into Malfeas, with no way to reduce it. So he has embarked on a grand scheme to play against his Torment Reducer, in hopes to break his Limit Break.

The entire Reclamation is solely built around the Ebon Dragon getting to marry the Scarlet Empress twice.

The fact that he gets to escape is just an added bonus.

[Sanguine]

Can you use an Act of Villiany to get yourself out of Limit Break prematurely?

[Lochar]

Doubtful, but the idea is still funny.

[Kylarra]

Why wouldn't you use an Act of Villainy whenever possible?

[Jokasti]

Isn't the Fetich of a Yozi still considered that Yozi, technically?
So the whole UCS becoming the ED isn't that big of a deal.

[Feriority]

Zords, not Zoids. Wrong genre.

Hmm... a Lunar warstrider game, you say? (Seriously. Totally thematic! My beast form is a gunsniper.)

[Sanguine]

Isn't the Fetich of a Yozi still considered that Yozi, technically?
So the whole UCS becoming the ED isn't that big of a deal.

Please note that the Unconquered Sun being TED's Fetich isn't Canon.

Also no they are not the same entity. He would become The Ebon Dragon in the way that the Brass Dancer is Malfeas or the Demon City is. A Fetich however is a much lesser creature, greater then the other souls true but lesser than the whole. This is made abundantly clear by the results of their respective deaths. If Ligier were to die Malfeas would continue as a living being even if one completely different from what he once was. If the Brass Dancer were to be slain however Malfeas would become a Neverborn.