Ranger vs. Paladin

[Tvtyrant]

In an earlier thread it was mentioned that Rangers are placed into a higher Tier then Paladings (4 instead of 5) despite the similarities in class design. I'm not sure I agree with this based on two things:

1. The Paladin is much, much better then the Monk and Fighter it is placed with. It gets class features that synergize better then the monks and casting.

2. Some of the Paladin's spells are better/equal to the Rangers, including especially Holy Sword.

One major issue is that Rangers get far more support then Paladins outside of core, with more spells and alternate class features. Thoughts?

[Coidzor]

Ranger has a slight advantage when Dragon material is put into play, I believe, though I'm not quite sure what all the Paladin gets aside from some extra spells and mount options.

Mystic Ranger's 5th level spells and faster casting progression are a nice edge, even with the wonkiness of potentially still only having 1/2 CL per level advancement, especially since best ranger spells are ranged in focus. With the sword of the arcane order the Mystic Ranger becomes very nice... Though, it's about equal for both of the vanilla versions, though I think Ranger might have slightly less MAD, depending upon the sources involved,

Wildshape Ranger also has distinct advantages due to greatly reducing MAD, but that's an ACF...

I think vanilla Paladin's mount is slightly better than the Ranger's animal companion though they're both fairly underwhelming, but with feat and other books' support, the paladin mount can become a bloody dragon which is pretty nifty and something that the ranger's animal companion can't really compete with.

As far as tier-ranking, I think part of it is that with the skillpoins ranger gets, they can also invest ranks in some level of scout-oriented skills.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that I'm going to have to agree with the statement.

As much as I love Paladins, core Paladins (not counting homebrews... 1winged4ngel's fix is at LEAST high T4, likely low T3) are not very versatile. While it's definitely a high T5, it's T5 none-the-less.

Why do I think that it's slammed down to T5?

1. Lack of Versatility. You are good at your job - combat (especially vs. Evil), but not much else.
2. Out-of-Combat usage. You have little to do outside combat. Even assuming human, you get only 69 skill points over your career, and not a varied skill list.
3. Very front-loaded class. This prevents a lot of people from taking true levels in it, as opposed to dips, simply because when you dip, you get the best that the paladin really has to offer.

That isn't all, but it's the big three, really. And that's not even mentioning it's mount. (Exception - Small Pally's mounts can be USEFUL, considering how they're Medium and can follow you into dungeons)

[Kuulvheysoon]

I think vanilla Paladin's mount is slightly better than the Ranger's animal companion though they're both fairly underwhelming, but with feat and other books' support, the paladin mount can become a bloody dragon which is pretty nifty and something that the ranger's animal companion can't really compete with.

Dragon Magic. Both Druid and Ranger can replace their normal animal companions with a Phynxkin, a draconic-type jaguar. It's pretty cool, actually. It can't fly like the drakkensteed can, however.

[Coidzor]

Dragon Magic. Both Druid and Ranger can replace their normal animal companions with a Phynxkin, a draconic-type jaguar. It's pretty cool, actually. It can't fly like the drakkensteed can, however.

Draconomicon allows the Pally to be riding around on a gold dragon though. I don't think any of the ACFs or companions for the Ranger really come close to that.

Of course, the best thing is when one has a mount that is also an animal companion and a dragon... (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866958/Supermount!)

[Darth Stabber]

I would posit that a paladin is inferior to a fighter (even without dungeon crasher), given that a fighter can easily put together a number of crazy feat packages, paladins are pretty much limited mounted ubercharging. Also paladins are more MAD.

Ranger is higher tiered due to higher versitility, because they get 6+ skills as opposed to 2+, and have no charisma dependence.

[Greenish]

Paladin spellcasting isn't terrible, what with the free autoquicken (and they can take SotAO too), they get turning that fuels all sorts of cool stuff, there's a feat to reduce MAD to "just" Str, Con & Wis.

I should think that paladins with enough splats are probably better than non-dungeoncrasher fighters, and pretty high in tier 5. Just C.Champ and SC are huge improvements on paladin.

[Coidzor]

There's a feat to reduce MAD to "just" Str, Con & Wis.

What's that?

[Greenish]

What's that?Serenity, Dragon Mag. #306. Keys all of paladin's Cha based class features to Wis instead.

[Edit]: One day in a low op game I want to try serenity paladin/monk/argent fist with Wis to AC in full plate, Wis to saves, Evasion and Mettle. Might slap on a level of Shiba Protector and pretend being useful.

[DrGonzo]

As much as I love Paladins, core Paladins (not counting homebrews... 1winged4ngel's fix is at LEAST high T4, likely low T3) are not very versatile. While it's definitely a high T5, it's T5 none-the-less.


I very much would like to see this, but my google-fu is failing me. Does anyone have a link?

[Coidzor]

I very much would like to see this, but my google-fu is failing me. Does anyone have a link?

This seems to be the best lead I could find. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045)

OneWinged4ngel


Serenity, Dragon Mag. #306. Keys all of paladin's Cha based class features to Wis instead.

[Edit]: One day in a low op game I want to try serenity paladin/monk/argent fist with Wis to AC in full plate, Wis to saves, Evasion and Mettle. Might slap on a level of Shiba Protector and pretend being useful.

Nifty. Thanks.

One of these days I need to read Argent Fist and figure out how it managed to get borked...

[Greenish]

One of these days I need to read Argent Fist and figure out how it managed to get borked...Argent Fist? Combo two classes with worst MAD to make an AAD PrC! Then deny that PrC even from full BAB, and give it a bunch of useless stuff. Da da!

[Coidzor]

Argent Fist? Combo two classes with worst MAD to make an AAD PrC! Then deny that PrC even from full BAB, and give it a bunch of useless stuff. Da da!

Oh, I thought that one was supposed to have Full BAB for monks and still be bad.

...Must have misinterpreted what was being said when they were describing PrCs that sounded great by their description but were utterly borked in execution.

[Greenish]

Oh, I thought that one was supposed to have Full BAB for monks and still be bad.Nah, you might be thinking some other X Fist. Argent Fist is the monk/paladin PrC from Faiths of Eberron, which only has medium BAB, though it really could use full.

[Coidzor]

^: So many PrC Fists. x,x
I very much would like to see this, but my google-fu is failing me. Does anyone have a link?

Oh. Sorry. The first thread I linked didn't seem to have the full class. I don't know if this was the final version of the class, but it seems to be the full write-up. (http://g-sanc.net/forums/archive/index.php?t-176.html)

[Kuulvheysoon]

^: So many PrC Fists. x,x

Oh. Sorry. The first thread I linked didn't seem to have the full class. I don't know if this was the final version of the class, but it seems to be the full write-up. (http://g-sanc.net/forums/archive/index.php?t-176.html)

That's the final version that he posted, far as I know. It's the one I used, suffice to say. IT's really quite good, especially once you throw in CC. He DOES redesign their spell list, though, but that's their 'core' spell list.

[Optimator]

This seems to be the best lead I could find. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045)



I always thought that this Paladin was freaking awesome. I heartily recommend it.