Holy Sword spell interactions?

[Coidzor]

So, I was reading the Paladin V. Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196716) spellcasting thread and looked up the Holy Sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm) spell since it was touted as pretty sweet for Paladins.

After reading it, I was left with this question though... What happens when a weapon augment crystal interacts with a weapon under the influence of the Holy Sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm) spell?

...And then it just now occurred to me to wonder, what about infusions that are applied after Holy Sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm)?

Relevant spell text with emphasis added:
If this spell is cast on a magic weapon, the powers of the spell supersede any that the weapon normally has, rendering the normal enhancement bonus and powers of the weapon inoperative for the duration of the spell. This spell is not cumulative with bless weapon or any other spell that might modify the weapon in any way.

[RaggedAngel]

This seems like a straightforward case of RAI versus RAW.

RAI, the spell is clearly meant to overlap anything else that might affect the sword; it's a +5 Holy sword, no if's, and's, or but's. This is supported by the fact that, while the text doesn't mention infusions or powers, neither of those existed when Holy Sword was written.

RAW, it says spells don't stack. Infusions are not spells. Go nuts.

[Thiyr]

Being less than familiar with infusions, I will refrain from comment there. On the subject of weapon crystals though, I'd say they should still work. changing emphasis a bit

If this spell is cast on a magic weapon, the powers of the spell supersede any that the weapon normally has, rendering the normal enhancement bonus and powers of the weapon inoperative for the duration of the spell. This spell is not cumulative with bless weapon or any other spell that might modify the weapon in any way.

That's not a bonus or power the weapon normally has, and it would be a stretch to call the crystals spells. It's the same (in my mind at least) as using, say, steadfast boots to ready hypothetical holy sword'd greatsword against a charge. A power reliant on the weapon to work, but not a power of the weapon. That said, I'm working off of memory for that one, so I may be wrong.

[ericgrau]

If you want to get technical then crystals that affect the weapon (most crystals) are suppressed as those are added weapon powers while those that affect you (e.g., AC from Crystal of Arrow Deflection) are not suppressed.

[T.G. Oskar]

Being the one that actually recommended Holy Sword, let me expand on why it's good and what I believe about it:

First, the spell is good because it provides the equivalent of a +7 weapon (+5 Holy) for pretty much the remainder of the battle, giving you a pretty useful weapon when you have none. It's obviously not as good if you already have a weapon that's the same or better; namely, a Holy Avenger or a weapon that has a +5 weapon worth of good special qualities (which with Greater Magic Weapon you can raise up to +5), but it's a lifesaver when you're weaponless (sundered weapon, disarmed) because you can enchant pretty much any weapon you can use (including gauntlets if you're using full plate armor).

Augment crystals work pretty different. By RAI, any weapon enhancement the spell has is canceled (hence, why you don't want to use it on your +1 holy weapon of spell storing, for example), and that would include augment crystals because they directly enhance the weapon. However, the ruling doesn't determine the interactions when adding a weapon crystal to a weapon enchanted this way; for example, assume you use Holy Sword as a swift action (through Battle Blessing) and then use the remaining action to add a Greater Fiendslaying weapon crystal. Since the weapon has been already enchanted and any other benefit is superseded, but you're adding a new benefit to the weapon, you can treat the Holy Sword as a "new weapon" (and thus gain the benefit of Greater Fiendslaying which requires a +3 or higher weapon), or one cancels the other (you add the weapon but the Holy Sword enhancement cancels it) or the enhancement works but the crystal doesn't work nonetheless (assuming you're doing it with a +2 or lower weapon, you can benefit from a Least or Lesser Fiendslaying crystal but not a Greater Fiendslaying because the weapon is originally a +2 or lower.

Unfortunately, I'd read the second as correct, interpreting the relations between the two: weapon crystals work based on the original enhancements of the weapon, not on the spells cast upon it, so a Greater Fiendslaying Crystal wouldn't work with a Holy Sword if the original weapon was +2 or lower, so the weapon crystal becomes an enhancement of the original weapon; hence, when the weapon enhancement bonus (if any) is superseded by the Holy Sword enhancement, the weapon crystal may become inert (since it cancels the original weapon enhancement, if any, which is what the weapon crystal "reads" to provide its own enhancement).

Holy Sword is good despite this, because the chance of getting a +5 weapon with +5 worth of special enhancements (or even a +1 weapon with a +9 worth of special enhancements) is expected to be pretty rare unless you have a lot of luck, a dedicated crafter, or an artificer (the latter two don't have to be the same). It works when you're weaponless, since it delivers a pretty useful weapon with a Magic Circle against Evil benefit tagging along with it. However, you unfortunately can't make it interact with, say, Weapon of the Deity which works in a different way (and it would make for a slightly better weapon, if limited in terms of choices). That was to prevent having a +6 or higher weapon pre-epic, or adding Holy to a weapon pretty much for free (in hindsight, not the best way to deal with the weapon in any case).

[ericgrau]

Actually a +1 spell storing weapon (w/o the holy) seems like the perfect target for the spell. Bam, discharge, now I cast holy sword. The drawback in this case would be the casting time though.

[Coidzor]

Augment crystals work pretty different. By RAI, any weapon enhancement the spell has is canceled (hence, why you don't want to use it on your +1 holy weapon of spell storing, for example), and that would include augment crystals because they directly enhance the weapon. However, the ruling doesn't determine the interactions when adding a weapon crystal to a weapon enchanted this way; for example, assume you use Holy Sword as a swift action (through Battle Blessing) and then use the remaining action to add a Greater Fiendslaying weapon crystal. Since the weapon has been already enchanted and any other benefit is superseded, but you're adding a new benefit to the weapon, you can treat the Holy Sword as a "new weapon" (and thus gain the benefit of Greater Fiendslaying which requires a +3 or higher weapon), or one cancels the other (you add the weapon but the Holy Sword enhancement cancels it) or the enhancement works but the crystal doesn't work nonetheless (assuming you're doing it with a +2 or lower weapon, you can benefit from a Least or Lesser Fiendslaying crystal but not a Greater Fiendslaying because the weapon is originally a +2 or lower.

Unfortunately, I'd read the second as correct, interpreting the relations between the two: weapon crystals work based on the original enhancements of the weapon, not on the spells cast upon it, so a Greater Fiendslaying Crystal wouldn't work with a Holy Sword if the original weapon was +2 or lower, so the weapon crystal becomes an enhancement of the original weapon; hence, when the weapon enhancement bonus (if any) is superseded by the Holy Sword enhancement, the weapon crystal may become inert (since it cancels the original weapon enhancement, if any, which is what the weapon crystal "reads" to provide its own enhancement).

So your stance is yes but only if applied after Holy Sword is cast and you can't cheat the system by putting a crystal that requires a +3 when the base weapon was not a +3? Am I interpreting what you said correctly?

[T.G. Oskar]

So your stance is yes but only if applied after Holy Sword is cast and you can't cheat the system by putting a crystal that requires a +3 when the base weapon was not a +3? Am I interpreting what you said correctly?

More like "no, it's not possible, but that's probably how it'd work if you stretched RAW enough".

To make it simpler: Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Weapon Augment Crystals don't mix. Ideally, Holy Sword and Greater Weapon Augments don't mix. Since Holy Sword turns off the enchantments on the weapon and replaces it with their own, Lesser and Greater Weapon Augment Crystals cannot be used. It's not that difficult to go with that interpretation and realize Least Augment Crystals don't work either.

Now, assume they DID. Augment Crystals work with Holy Sword, because they're not weapon special qualities. If they did, they couldn't work with any other crystal besides Least Augment because the latter only requires a masterwork weapon to work. Stretching it a bit further, you could claim that since the weapon's enhancement is merely suppressed (much like what happens with a +1 weapon under the effect of Weapon of the Deity or Greater Magic Weapon, except in those two occasions it's really overlap), the base enhancement bonus of the weapon is what determines whether the crystal works or not, and thus you could work it out. However, you could only work it out if you added the crystal after the spell is cast, not before (because in that way it'd be suppressed).

However, the magic word is "suppresses", not "overlaps". Since it suppresses the weapon enhancements, the crystals would likewise be suppressed for the time being. Think of the weapon crystal as if adding the Least Weapon Augmentation infusion on the weapon; Holy Sword explicitly blocks any such augmentations, so it would also block weapon crystals of any kind. If the magic word was "overlaps" instead, you could use weapon crystals based on the original enhancement bonus it has; however, once again, the magic word is "suppresses" and thus it replaces any bonus from the weapon, including Weapon Augment Crystals.

Simple enough?

[Curmudgeon]

To make it simpler: Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Weapon Augment Crystals don't mix.
...
Simple enough?
Simple, but I can't see any rules support for that statement.
This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5).
A greater augment crystal functions only when attached to an object with a magical enhancement bonus of +3 or higher. Only the item's actual bonus applies, not its "effective" bonus; for example, a +1 keen holy flaming burst longsword won't allow a greater augment crystal to function, since its actual bonus is only +1. Greater Magic Weapon gives the weapon a numerical magical enhancement bonus, temporarily. That meets the requirement for a greater augment crystal to work, temporarily, if the numerical enhancement is +3 or greater.

[Coidzor]

Less concerned with that particular aspect, really.

Guess I should've just dug up my MIC first to see whether the augment crystals property added to the weapon or was channeled through the weapon