Malconvoker build?

[Venger]

hey all. I was thinking of a fun build for a malconvoker and cooked up this.

cleric 1 spell focus (conjuration), augment summoning
cleric 2
cleric 3 imbue summoning
cleric 4 fast healing 2 (shadow creature special ability)
cleric 5

trickery domain for bluff as a class skill so he can get into malconvoker at lvl 5
summoner domain for +2 CL to conjuration (summoning) and (calling)

Shadow creature template, picking fast healing first because it's the most immediately useful.

now, I know that from here I go into malconvoker (might as well take all 9 lvls, they are all pure awesome) but what would be a good idea as far as feats and such go? what should I do with the remaining 6 lvls? what is another class that advances divine casting (preferably full casting since malconvoker already requires 1 dead lvl) that will make my summons more powerful?

I just really like the flavor of the malconvoker, the hapless magical dabbler messing with forces he doesn't understand, his ability to live another day predicated on how well he can sweet talk his summons.

any help with this character and his friends on the other side would be appreciated. super special awesome extra bonus points if you know who I'm building

[LordBlades]

Rapid spell and DMM: Rapid Spell might be a good choice. For 2 Turn Attempts you get to cast a summoning spell as a standard action.

[Venger]

Rapid spell and DMM: Rapid Spell might be a good choice. For 2 Turn Attempts you get to cast a summoning spell as a standard action.

oo! that's a great idea. how would DMM: imbue summons be? the LA is only +1 for the spell, and you get to give them cool stuff like "energy resistance' and "invisibility". is it useful in practice? I mean, it seems to follow the general thought process for DMM, which is action economy. if in a normal turn, I spend a full round summoning, and then a standard action casting invisibility or some such, just spending a full round to cast the spell with invisibility already on there is good too, right?

is it worth it to DMM both? is it worth the extra feat slot?

[LordBlades]

Tbh I don't think Imbue Summoning is worth the feat slot. There aren't that many cleric touch spells of lvl 3 or lower that offer effects that you couldn't replicate by summoning a different creature in the first place.

[Venger]

Tbh I don't think Imbue Summoning is worth the feat slot. There aren't that many cleric touch spells of lvl 3 or lower that offer effects that you couldn't replicate by summoning a different creature in the first place.

wow, you're right. I looked up how many beneficial cleric buffs at a lvl ≤3 there are and there are barely any. it's pretty much just "protection from (alignment)" and "energy resistance". the example it gives of invisibility, I forgot, is not on the cleric list. yeah, it doesn't really seem to be worth it in that case

[Keld Denar]

I'd go Rapid Spell and DMM Rapid Spell if anything. That costs you 2 TU attempts per spell, but its nice when you can get a summon out THIS turn instead of waiting until the start of next turn.

Also, check out Thamaturge in the DMG for a PrC to follow up with. I think its only 5 levels long, which works out nicely with Cleric5/Malc10. Shouldn't have any problem getting in, as it is designed for a Cleric summoner...

[Diarmuid]

wow, you're right. I looked up how many beneficial cleric buffs at a lvl ≤3 there are and there are barely any. it's pretty much just "protection from (alignment)" and "energy resistance". the example it gives of invisibility, I forgot, is not on the cleric list. yeah, it doesn't really seem to be worth it in that case

Just a note, Trickery domain gets you Invisibility.

[Doc Roc]

Just a note, Trickery domain gets you Invisibility.

There are quite a few little buffs that are great. It's not The Best feat, but it certainly is better than people think. Have you read the Malconvoker Guide?

[Toliudar]

There are quite a few little buffs that are great. It's not The Best feat, but it certainly is better than people think. Have you read the Malconvoker Guide?

Indeed TreantMonk's "Mastering the Malconvoker" (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0) is a treasure trove of ideas for all this.

[Venger]

I'd go Rapid Spell and DMM Rapid Spell if anything. That costs you 2 TU attempts per spell, but its nice when you can get a summon out THIS turn instead of waiting until the start of next turn.

Also, check out Thamaturge in the DMG for a PrC to follow up with. I think its only 5 levels long, which works out nicely with Cleric5/Malc10. Shouldn't have any problem getting in, as it is designed for a Cleric summoner...

that is true. since I'll be a malconvoker, I'll definitely end up putting at least a few points into cha for bluffiness.

wow! that fits perfectly! malconvoker is something of an oddball in that there are only 9 lvls of it.

I do have a few questions about how the two would interact, though.

would the malconvoker's "deceptive summons" ability stack with the thaumaturgist's "extended summoning" ? extended summoning stacks with extend spell, so I figure it will probably stack with something that essentially is extend spell. if they do stack, which I figure they do, then does it last for 3x the normal duration or 4x the normal duration?

it's a shame about having "augment summoning" twice. do I get to pick a different feat I meet the prereqs for instead since I already have it? that is normally the case for bonus feats, such as the malconvoker's skill focus (bluff)



Just a note, Trickery domain gets you Invisibility.
I know it gives invisibility, but since it's a domain slot, I can only use it once a day. with that in mind, I don't think it's really worth investing a feat in imbue summon if I can really only use it with that once (and maybe energy resistance or something)



There are quite a few little buffs that are great. It's not The Best feat, but it certainly is better than people think. Have you read the Malconvoker Guide?



Indeed TreantMonk's "Mastering the Malconvoker" (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0) is a treasure trove of ideas for all this.

thank you very much, I'll give it a look.

[Doc Roc]

I miss treantmonk. Wonder if... hum.

[Hazzardevil]

I think the 2 augment's stack and you only choose a new feat if it says you can specifically.

Anyway, Stacking augment is a bit dodgy, so my advice is go into thuergmatist or whatever 1st untill you get augment summoning then go back to finish it after malconvoker.

Just out of interest, whats your other domain and race going to be?
You could easily take a few corpsecrafter feats and use Demon skeletons as tanks and Gundam's.

[Venger]

I think the 2 augment's stack and you only choose a new feat if it says you can specifically.

Anyway, Stacking augment is a bit dodgy, so my advice is go into thuergmatist or whatever 1st untill you get augment summoning then go back to finish it after malconvoker.

Just out of interest, whats your other domain and race going to be?
You could easily take a few corpsecrafter feats and use Demon skeletons as tanks and Gundam's.

good! oh darn.

see, I would, but I need to be cleric 7 to enter thaumaturgist, take 5 lvls, and then only have room for 8 of malconvoker

whereas I can go cleric 5/ malconvoker 9/ thaumaturge 5/ xx1. if I can't avoid doubling up on augments (especially if they stack! awesome) then I'll just do it this way

my 2 domains are going to be summoner and trickery

I figured I would play as human, because I'm building Dr. Facilier from "the princess and the frog" (hence the earlier bit about this character's "friends on the other side" )

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/polls/214000/214832_1259360842336_full.jpg

[Akal Saris]

Rather than Imbued Summoning, you could take Invisible Spell (Cityscape) and have all your summons be invisible for +0 LA.

The Dragon Below domain (Eberron Campaign setting) gives Augment Summoning as a bonus feat and has a decent enough spell list, by the way. It's nice if you're a bit feat-strapped and don't mind being a cultist.

There's also a planar touchstone feat to give +4 AC/Saves to summoned creatures from one plane, such as the Abyss.

[Venger]

Rather than Imbued Summoning, you could take Invisible Spell (Cityscape) and have all your summons be invisible for +0 LA.

The Dragon Below domain (Eberron Campaign setting) gives Augment Summoning as a bonus feat and has a decent enough spell list, by the way. It's nice if you're a bit feat-strapped and don't mind being a cultist.

There's also a planar touchstone feat to give +4 AC/Saves to summoned creatures from one plane, such as the Abyss.

I am familiar with that trick. while I think it's interesting mechanically, I just don't really think it makes sense for the character. a large part of the joy that I experienced watching "friends on the other side" were the visuals of the bright colors and lights and the glowing eyes of the monsters while facilier was dancing. I just don't think it would be as much fun with invisible monsters. it just doesn't seem flashy enough for him.

just looked at the domain, it's great stuff! I'll definitely keep it in mind for future builds, but all the spells it grants are already on the cleric list. none of the ones in the trickery domain are on the cleric list (and it's necessary for bluff as a class skill) and the summoner domain gives summon monsters as a domain slot leaving other slots open for different spells, and and boosts all my summoning spells by +2 CL.

very much appreciate the tip. lol, I don't mind having my bokor character be a cultist

[LordBlades]

If you really need 3 domains (Summoning, Trickery and Dragon Below) you could be a Cloistered Cleric (from UA, 2 domains of your choice + Knoweldge domain) and then use the Heretic of Faith Feat(from Power of Faerun IIRC) to change Knowledge for another Domain.

[Venger]

If you really need 3 domains (Summoning, Trickery and Dragon Below) you could be a Cloistered Cleric (from UA, 2 domains of your choice + Knoweldge domain) and then use the Heretic of Faith Feat(from Power of Faerun IIRC) to change Knowledge for another Domain.

that's a neat trick! I will probably do that if I have the feats to spare. the build doesn't look feat starved anyway, and a summoner's BA is obviously extraneous most of the time anyway, as is his AC

I figured out what to do with my last lvl:

a 1 lvl dip in binder

since the only lvl 1 vestige that's useful to this build is naberius and I need 4 bluff, I'll take it at the 3rd lvl:

cleric 1 spell focus (conj) augment summon
cleric 2
binder 1 rapid spell
cleric 3
cleric 4
cleric 5 divine metamagic
malconvoker 1
malconvoker 2
malconvoker 3 - heretic of faith
malconvoker 4
malconvoker 5
malconvoker 6- feat
malconvoker 7
malconvoker 8
malconvoker 9- feat
thaumaturgist 1
thaumaturgist 2
thaumaturgist 3-feat
thaumaturgist 4
thaumaturgist 5

it'll allow facilier constant disguise self at will, let him make skill checks untrained, use command every 5 rounds, heal 1 point of ability dmg/round (hellooooo corrupt conjuration spells!) take 10 on bluff (as a malconvoker! woohoo!) diplomacy (even rushed! as a standard action! with no penalty!) for both even when distracted or threatened. and there will be plenty of both going on when malconvoking.

does this make sense mechanically? is it a prudent decision? I'm only losing 2 cls total, so I'll still have access to at least 2 9ths a day (plus domain)

[Doc Roc]

I really don't like thaumaturgist, actually, but what level is this going to be played at?

[Venger]

I really don't like thaumaturgist, actually, but what level is this going to be played at?

what's wrong with thaumaturgist? is there some mechanical vulnerability that I'm not seeing? or do you just object to its general lack of flavour like mystic theurge? I understand that. a lot of the prcs in the dmg are like that.

as for level, I don't know yet. I think it will probably start out at 4, but I know it won't start any lower than that. I'm going to start playing over summer vacation, so my dm hasn't made up his mind yet.

[Doc Roc]

what's wrong with thaumaturgist? is there some mechanical vulnerability that I'm not seeing? or do you just object to its general lack of flavour like mystic theurge? I understand that. a lot of the prcs in the dmg are like that.

as for level, I don't know yet. I think it will probably start out at 4, but I know it won't start any lower than that. I'm going to start playing over summer vacation, so my dm hasn't made up his mind yet.

Mm, Thaum just isn't very strong. There are quite a few other options that I might consider, and there's a few other feats.

Fiendish Summoning Specialist is particularly of note, from planar handbook. It doesn't see a lot of discussion, because it can require some GM Fiat, but it's a truly excellent and powerful option.

[Venger]

Mm, Thaum just isn't very strong. There are quite a few other options that I might consider, and there's a few other feats.

Fiendish Summoning Specialist is particularly of note, from planar handbook. It doesn't see a lot of discussion, because it can require some GM Fiat, but it's a truly excellent and powerful option.

understandable. what did you have in mind? I wasn't exactly dead set on it. it just seemed like an attractive option since so many of the good summoning classes (such as master specialist) are only available to arcane casters and thaumaturgist allows both kinds.

fiendish summoning specialist does indeed look pretty cool. what monsters do you recommend adding?

I was contemplating the "summon elemental" reserve feat from complete mage, since it's a pretty solid option for the upper levels where it's less of a big deal to have a 4th lvl summoning spell slot around for free elementals. the way I understand it, augment summoning would boost its attributes. is this correct?

[Doc Roc]

understandable. what did you have in mind? I wasn't exactly dead set on it. it just seemed like an attractive option since so many of the good summoning classes (such as master specialist) are only available to arcane casters and thaumaturgist allows both kinds.

fiendish summoning specialist does indeed look pretty cool. what monsters do you recommend adding?

I was contemplating the "summon elemental" reserve feat from complete mage, since it's a pretty solid option for the upper levels where it's less of a big deal to have a 4th lvl summoning spell slot around for free elementals. the way I understand it, augment summoning would boost its attributes. is this correct?

There are a lot of PrCs that I like more, it depends on what exactly you want to do. Honestly, with malconvoker alone, you've got extremely competitive summoning capabilities. We could pretty easily just go from there, I suspect, in a different direction. I like initiate of the seven fold veil, but you won't have a chance to finish it. My normal go to is war weaver, but you'd want that early, and it loses a CL. Honestly, one of the meta-magic mitigation classes is probably a good option, but those are a bit thin on the ground for clerics. A contemplative dip is never ever bad, though, trust me on that one... There's some other stuff that's pretty interesting, I'd need a little time to examine it in my head.

[Venger]

There are a lot of PrCs that I like more, it depends on what exactly you want to do. Honestly, with malconvoker alone, you've got extremely competitive summoning capabilities. We could pretty easily just go from there, I suspect, in a different direction. I like initiate of the seven fold veil, but you won't have a chance to finish it. My normal go to is war weaver, but you'd want that early, and it loses a CL. Honestly, one of the meta-magic mitigation classes is probably a good option, but those are a bit thin on the ground for clerics. A contemplative dip is never ever bad, though, trust me on that one... There's some other stuff that's pretty interesting, I'd need a little time to examine it in my head.

ok. that was the general impression I had after reading treantmonk's malconvoker handbook. I don't think IotSV will complement this build all that much. I know it's definitely one of the classes to enter in order to win D&D, but since facilier will be at a distance from enemies all the time anyway, his utility of the veils will be somewhat limited, especially since like with all forcefields in the game, you can't use them offensively. I'm also not too keen on using up 3 late in the game feat slots on it.

what is war weaver? I don't think I'm familiar with that one. what is a metamagic mitigation class? I'm not familiar with that term. is that like an incantrix? I have heard of that, but don't know any specifics. isn't it only for arcane casters?

I have heard contemplative is a nice afterclass for malconvokers. why is that? I see it gives full casting, which is neat, and a bonus domain, which, when combined with the trick above will yield a grand total of 4, which is pretty sweet.

does divine health allow me to be an asymptomatic carrier for diseases like a cancer mage? can I still bite people and give them all the awful stuff I've contracted, or does my body kill all the germs upon entry?

sure, by all means take your time. like I said, the games not for at least another month or so, which is why I'm doing the research now, since I know playing summoners requires a bit more of it than other classes.

I appreciate your insights, I look forward to seeing what you come up with. thanks very much for your advice, everybody, you're being really helpful

[Doc Roc]

The critical thing is that you can do contemplative as an Ideal Cleric, letting you pick up zany rare domains like Time or Moon or Elysium.

[Venger]

The critical thing is that you can do contemplative as an Ideal Cleric, letting you pick up zany rare domains like Time or Moon or Elysium.

mechanically, I'm already an ideal cleric since, as you saw, I have the summoner domain (which is granted by the new kid on the block, tritherion) who has only 1 domain under his umbrella. since clerics get to pick 2, my DM let me pick up the trickery domain too, since the two don't seem all that distant. (especially since malconvokery is all about tricking creatures you summon)

if I end up picking up extra domains (it looks like I'm looking at at least 2 right now) I was thinking towards the darkness or vile darkness domain, or maybe the domination domain.

I'm playing him probably as CN, mechanically, since it would be an arrant lie to write G on facilier's sheet, and malconvokers Are Not Allowed to be evil aligned. a bokor worshipping baron samedi seems to fit here best anyway since archetypally, he's a trickster god, amongst other things

what other domains would you recommend looking at? the chief thing to me is it making sense flavor wise and going thematically with his other two. if you haven't seen "princess and the frog" (I highly recommend it, it's great) then facilier's flavour of magic is demons, devils, smoke and lights, shadows, darkness, transformation, trickery, greed, envy, souls, and precognition

if I accidentally used any titles of domains, then it was unintentional, those're just physical descriptors.

[Doc Roc]

I do seem to remember there's a precognition domain, or something very similar, and I seem to remember it's amazing.

[Venger]

I do seem to remember there's a precognition domain, or something very similar, and I seem to remember it's amazing.

hm. well, I can't seem to find one with the exact title "precognition", was it any of these, perchance?

dream
fate
knowledge
oracle
mentalism
mind
planning


on a related note, omg at the transformation domain from races of eberron. pretty sure my dm'll allow it too. after all, facilier sang a song about it.

[Doc Roc]

I leave you to your merry hunt for domains, but I suspect we've made the point regarding Contemplative?

[Venger]

I leave you to your merry hunt for domains, but I suspect we've made the point regarding Contemplative?

were any of those the "precognition" domain that you had in mind?

indeed you have. I know that diseases aren't really viable for pcs to use offensively, it's always just funny to contemplate being a hive of disease but walking around cool as a cucumber.

how many lvls do you suggest? the way you're phrasing it, you're suggesting a 5 lvl dip in place of thaumaturgist, right? that sounds cool, although if I were able to squeeze in 6 lvls of contemplative, I'd get another bonus domain for a total of 5! (you've got me addicted to bonus domains, lol) for more strange powers and wizard spells.

I could always slice off the last lvl of malconvoker. safe summoning will probably not be as much of an issue with naberius's vestige on and what, by then, would be a sizable bluff mod. if there were ever doubt about my ability to bluff a creature, I could always opt not to use deceptive summons or just dismiss with a standard action if the check fails