Pathfinder Archery

[Ceaon]

So I created a character I have grown quite fond of, Klaus. He's a level 3 pathfinder fighter focusing on archery. I'd like some feedback on my current build and possible future choices.

The campaign has some houserules and specifics that might be worth mentioning.
1) The rest of the party is a human melee fighter/rogue (1/2), a gnome ranged sorcerer/rogue (2/1) and a human melee cleric/fighter (2/1).
2) It is quite low wealth (currently level 3 with about 400 gold worth of stuff).
3) We use the 3.5 "Armor as DR" variant.
4) We used point buy 20. Minmaxing was explicitly discouraged, though optimizing to be good at what you do is no problem.
5. We are traveling alongside a caravan, working as guards.

Here's my build: http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=15955

Now, is this an okay build? Are there any prestige classes worth building towards? Is it better to focus on little skills to a great extent or focus on many skills? Any other things Pathfinder and 3.5 archery differ greatly?

Thanks in advance!

Edit: available sources are the entire pathfinder srd although I'd like to keep it Core+APG.

[subject42]

If you're allowed to rebuild, you might want to look at the Archer ACF (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Archer) from the APG.

At your level you'll get a bonus to your bow's range increment, as well as the ability to use a maneuver at range.

[Mojo_Rat]

Your build Is fine as Subject42 has said if you can rebuild using the Archer Archtype from the APG you should.

The rules your group uses The Armor one Basically plays heavily in your favour. Your penaltis to hit from Rapid shot and Deadly aim are less than what your oponents in plate armour take to their AC for the rule.

Continue as youa re now and get Manyshot as soon as you can.

[Ceaon]

Thanks! I'll discuss with my DM if taking the ACF is an option. So, just continuing taking fighter levels would be best, I guess?

[Rising Phoenix]

Can't really add anything but I'll just say that I approve of your Stephan avatar :)

[Zeikstraal]

Looks good. I played an Archer for 8 levels, sadly he died 5 days ago.
Personally I would make Strenght an 16. And stay with the Core fighter build, so you get Armor training, and weapon training an multiple weapons. The big draw for the Archer Archetype was to make attacks without provoking AoOs. Just pick up the feat Point Blank Master from APG and your good to go. The Cmbs are at a -4, and you probably do not want to do this cause your doing tons of damage. I think 4 attacks are more worth than a feint or sunder at a -4. You can multiclass as Rogue to make good use of Dex related skills, my fighter had a +20 on stealth. And to pick up sneak attack. 4d6 a round extra damage will count.

Your Archery feats are quick to get and you need to spend your other feats. Maybe go for 2 weapon fighting since you already have a good Dex.

Go for the holy weapon and on lvl 8 your doing 4d8+12d6+52 damage. And if you have a caster with haste thats another Attack.

Good luck and hope you find this useful.

[Ravens_cry]

If you're allowed to rebuild, you might want to look at the Archer ACF (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Archer) from the APG.

At your level you'll get a bonus to your bow's range increment, as well as the ability to use a maneuver at range.
The Trick Shot is weird. Feint is included in the list, yet Feint is not a CMB check, it's a Bluff check. It might do well for a Rogue Archer to take three levels of Archer fighter just for that.

[subject42]

The Trick Shot is weird. Feint is included in the list, yet Feint is not a CMB check, it's a Bluff check. It might do well for a Rogue Archer to take three levels of Archer fighter just for that.

Ah! You just made my head explode.

If that text means you can feint as an attack action, taking a -4 penalty to your CMB to perform a check that doesn't actually use CMB, then Archer 3 is awesome.

If that text means "at third level you can do what you already do, but you take a penalty to something that isn't used in this action, and you lose an arrow", then it's kind of terrible.

If it reads "feints work with your arrows, instead of just melee weapons", then it's... OK.

[Curious]

Ah! You just made my head explode.

If that text means you can feint as an attack action, taking a -4 penalty to your CMB to perform a check that doesn't actually use CMB, then Archer 3 is awesome.

If that text means "at third level you can do what you already do, but you take a penalty to something that isn't used in this action, and you lose an arrow", then it's kind of terrible.

If it reads "feints work with your arrows, instead of just melee weapons", then it's... OK.

It's the third one.

EDIT: I think. I haven't looked over this particular archetype very thoroughly.

[Ceaon]

Looks good. I played an Archer for 8 levels, sadly he died 5 days ago.
Personally I would make Strenght an 16. And stay with the Core fighter build, so you get Armor training, and weapon training an multiple weapons. The big draw for the Archer Archetype was to make attacks without provoking AoOs. Just pick up the feat Point Blank Master from APG and your good to go. The Cmbs are at a -4, and you probably do not want to do this cause your doing tons of damage. I think 4 attacks are more worth than a feint or sunder at a -4.

Strength 16/Dex 18 seems a bit too min-maxy for my DM. And now that I've read the ACF a bit more thouroughly, I saw I was losing Bravery and Armor Training, two class features I would miss a lot.

[/QUOTE]You can multiclass as Rogue to make good use of Dex related skills, my fighter had a +20 on stealth. And to pick up sneak attack. 4d6 a round extra damage will count.[/QUOTE]

Right, that would help as well. There's no more multiclassing penalties in Pathfinder, right? Should I take a rogue level asap or wait until I have reached a certain level?


Your Archery feats are quick to get and you need to spend your other feats. Maybe go for 2 weapon fighting since you already have a good Dex.
Go for the holy weapon and on lvl 8 your doing 4d8+12d6+52 damage. And if you have a caster with haste thats another Attack.
Good luck and hope you find this useful.

Well, there's plently of feats that I want, and two weapon fighting would be hard to pull off - I'd need quick draw, two weapon fighting feats, and another weapon (which I can not carry or afford). If I could get a Holy Weapon, that'd be great.

Also, being Dutch, can I congratulate you on your username?

@Rising Phoenix: It's Stefan, actually. But thanks :smallwink: Like your avatar as well. I'm guessing Seth (FE8) or something?

[CTrees]

It's the third one.

EDIT: I think. I haven't looked over this particular archetype very thoroughly.

Should be the third one, I'd think. Feint is normally a standard action (not listed as "in place of a melee attack" like, say, trip or sunder), and the text of the archer ability doesn't say the action type changes. Still, it looks like the -4CMB is *probably* only on that feint attempt, which would mean no effective penalty (as it's a bluff check), so... it's "do what you can normally do, just with a bow and an arrow" --> the third option.

[Ceaon]

Still, most archers are not trained in bluff nor does feinting really DO that much for them (unless they're rogue archers).

[Mojo_Rat]

it's pathfinder you can easily do it with a fighter. they are nit as skill starved as 3.5 and have the feats.

I'n a normal setting making your opponent flat footed then following next round with many shot is a good strat if your having issues hitting.

the problem here is the op is using the unearthed arcana armor dr rules (which I hate) so probably has very little chance of missing anything. ranged sunder is awesome though.

[Wagadodo]

I know you are few levels away from it, but one thing to make sure you get if you are going to be focusing on archery all the time is get the Point Blank Master Feat. That will allow you fire you bow while engaged in melee with out taking any attacks of oppurnity and truthfully will allow you avoid going into any other weapon fighting styles if you don't want.

[Curious]

Strength 16/Dex 18 seems a bit too min-maxy for my DM.

Wait wait wait. Your DM considers having a good strength and dexterity to be min-maxing? That- makes no sense. Show him a pun-pun build or something for real min-maxing.

[Zeikstraal]

Strength 16/Dex 18 seems a bit too min-maxy for my DM. And now that I've read the ACF a bit more thouroughly, I saw I was losing Bravery and Armor Training, two class features I would miss a lot.

You can multiclass as Rogue to make good use of Dex related skills, my fighter had a +20 on stealth. And to pick up sneak attack. 4d6 a round extra damage will count.[/QUOTE]

Right, that would help as well. There's no more multiclassing penalties in Pathfinder, right? Should I take a rogue level asap or wait until I have reached a certain level?



Well, there's plently of feats that I want, and two weapon fighting would be hard to pull off - I'd need quick draw, two weapon fighting feats, and another weapon (which I can not carry or afford). If I could get a Holy Weapon, that'd be great.

Also, being Dutch, can I congratulate you on your username?[/QUOTE]

Hehe, thanks, the name thats always available.
Where do you play, if I may ask?
I would go for Rogue after specialization. Multiclassing doesn't give penalty's but you will miss the favored class bonus. Not that big of a deal if you ask me.

[Ceaon]

I know, I know. But we're all having fun playing not-to-optimized characters. Even more, I think Pathfinder/D&D 3.x is way more balanced when playing low-optimization compared to high-optimization.

I was just wondering if a pathfinder archer fighter was as bad as a 3.5 archer fighter would have been. Apparantly, that's not the case, so I am fine with the character as powerful as he apparently is right now.

I'm still unsure about taking a prestige class, and if I do, which one.

Edit: Or just multiclassing rogue and leaving it at that...
@zeikstraal: we're playing the current game over skype. Used to play RL games in Twente.

[Curious]

Well, if you are having fun it isn't too bad, but still. There is a difference between min-maxing, and being competent at your chosen role.

[ericgrau]

I agree the archer alternate class feature isn't really worth it unless you build around it.

Some basic archery feats are point blank shot, rapid shot and precise shot. Probably weapon focus and weapon specialization next unless you want to jump straight into something tricky. From there it depends what you want to be able to do. Since bows crit at x3 improved critical is semi-worth it once you get your major feats out of the way. It'll get you more damage per combat than more general purpose stuff like improved initiative at least. Though improved initiative is also a good late option once you start running out of ideas for your main focus.

Rogue would help with skills but otherwise your attack bonus and feats would take a hit. Sneak attack will be hard to pull off without investing major resources for minor damage boost. If you're allowed talents, or the feat that gives you talents, then there are ways to get other skills as class skills on top of an additional +1 (so +4 total).

[Ceaon]

How's this for feats?
1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
2 Deadly Aim
3 Weapon Focus
4 Weapon Specialization
5 Point Blank Master (this level would be the Rogue level)
7 Manyshot, Disrupting Shot
9 Vital Strike, Greater Weapon Focus
11 Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative
13 Improved Precise Shot, Greater Weapon Specialization
15 Improved Vital Strike, Improved Critical
17 Penetrating Strike, Greater Penetrating Strike
19 Greater Vital Strike, Pin-Point Targetting

Edit: the penetrating/greater penetrating strike feats are to overcome the DR of armor.

[ericgrau]

Deadly aim seems like 3.5 power attack, which means without ubercharger cheese it comes to a minor damage boost or, at higher levels, a damage decrease against the average foe. So.. depends if you face a lot of low AC mooks or not. Like I said firing in melee isn't all that essential and while point-blank master is a nice idea it could be delayed in favor of other things. Manyshot is fairly weak unless you're on the move a lot... and even then you're better off using vital strike instead. At least until level 15-17+ when you can afford a super expensive magic weapon and arrows. At that point I'd ditch vital strike & co. and stick to manyshot. Are you allowed to retrain? At the very least there doesn't seem to be much point to having both. The remaining feats seem solid. I might make improved initiative later, if ever. Seems there are too many good options to have room. Pinpoint targetting seems way too specific but maybe by that point you're out of feats? Ok then that would be a good time for improved initiative.

EDIT: I'd probably get penetrating strike earlier then, or however fast armor DR scales.

[Ceaon]

Manyshot now functions on a full attack (here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/manyshot-combat---final)). And improved penetrating strike can not be taken earlier, which is the feat that passes DR/-. The first feat doesn't pass DR/- so is far less useful. Because of the armor as DR rule, Deadly Aim I think remains competitive.

Pin-Point Targeting is certainly droppable though.

[Mojo_Rat]

Deadly aim seems like 3.5 power attack, which means without ubercharger cheese it comes to a minor damage boost or, at higher levels, a damage decrease against the average foe. .

huh headly aim is probably one of the strongest feats he can take.

with many shot at lvl 8 he'll be adding +12 damage a round from deadly aim. and that's just on the first 2 arrows from many shot.

secondly it will counteract the very minor dr boost from the armor rules they are using while hitting co distantly because... of the same rule.

[MeeposFire]

Manyshot now functions on a full attack (here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/manyshot-combat---final)). And improved penetrating strike can not be taken earlier, which is the feat that passes DR/-. The first feat doesn't pass DR/- so is far less useful. Because of the armor as DR rule, Deadly Aim I think remains competitive.

Pin-Point Targeting is certainly droppable though.

Hence why it is actually worse than before. Many shot used to have a niche now it is just another extra attack on a full attack (which archers already get lot of). While archers can get full attacks more often the ability to make a near full attack as a standard action was a very useful thing to have in case you had to move.

[Ceaon]

Which is why I take Vital Strike. Manyshot is now something like +1d8+X free damage on a full attack. Better than Weapon Specialization at least.

[Wagadodo]

You need weapon specialization to qualify for the Point Plank Master feat that allows to fire while threatened with out taking any attacks of oppurnity. With the bonus from being a fighter and the bonuses from weapon focuses your BAB stays at a 1 to 20 level all the way up.

I wouldn't suggest multiclassing out of fighter into rogue, it gives you a very situtional 1D6 damage specially being a ranged fighter and it does give you ton of skill points and skills that become class skills. But it delays your feat selection by a level so now you have a dead level every other level and it hurts you bab by one. I would at least suggest two levels into rogue, that way get a rogue talent you don't lose any additional BAB. If you do go into the rogue route look at the Sniper from the APG. If you do ever fight at range it would allow lower down some range penalties.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/rogue.html