healer, ninja, warmage, monk, samurai?

[Particle_Man]

I am trying to construct a "niche" party but a low-powered one, using PC base classes from Wotc. Assume no multi-classing (and hence no prestige classes).

So the healer's role seems to fit for: the healer (natch).
The warmage is the classes "blow stuff up with magic" role, and is widely accepted as the weakest of the arcane full casters.
Monk is the monk. :)
Ninja could be a skill guy, and is usually thought to be not that powerful (this is the complete adventurer ninja).
Samurai is usually accepted as the weakest of the "fighter guy" classes (unless you go crazy with intimidation optimization, as I heard someone did). Another option would be Hexblade, I suppose (although that goes against niche protection), or maybe Swashbuckler.

Interesting that I could have a particular flavour with a party with ninja, samurai and monk (and then destroy that flavour with warmage) :)

So I am trying to go for a low-Tier, low-power party, one the fills the niches, as it were (Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Thief, and what the heck Monk). Obviously there are more powerful contenders, but this is not about that. Are these classes balanced against each other? If one is too powerful, is there a less powerful version that fills the same niche (without going into NPC classes just yet)?

[gallagher]

I am trying to construct a "niche" party but a low-powered one, using PC base classes from Wotc. Assume no multi-classing (and hence no prestige classes).

So the healer's role seems to fit for: the healer (natch).
The warmage is the classes "blow stuff up with magic" role, and is widely accepted as the weakest of the arcane full casters.
Monk is the monk. :)
Ninja could be a skill guy, and is usually thought to be not that powerful (this is the complete adventurer ninja).
Samurai is usually accepted as the weakest of the "fighter guy" classes (unless you go crazy with intimidation optimization, as I heard someone did). Another option would be Hexblade, I suppose (although that goes against niche protection), or maybe Swashbuckler.

Interesting that I could have a particular flavour with a party with ninja, samurai and monk (and then destroy that flavour with warmage) :)

So I am trying to go for a low-Tier, low-power party, one the fills the niches, as it were (Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Thief, and what the heck Monk). Obviously there are more powerful contenders, but this is not about that. Are these classes balanced against each other? If one is too powerful, is there a less powerful version that fills the same niche (without going into NPC classes just yet)?

instead of warmage, you should totally go spellthief.

playing a single classed spellthief was the most fun i had in any campaign ever. it makes me wonder why people bother playing rogue

[imperialspectre]

You could also replace the warmage and healer with a wu jen (Complete Arcane) and a shugenja (Complete Divine). Rounds out your flavor nicely, and adds just enough power that your party might not get wiped by even-CR monsters. :smallwink:

[Gnaeus]

I am trying to construct a "niche" party but a low-powered one, using PC base classes from Wotc. Assume no multi-classing (and hence no prestige classes).

So the healer's role seems to fit for: the healer (natch).
The warmage is the classes "blow stuff up with magic" role, and is widely accepted as the weakest of the arcane full casters.
Monk is the monk. :)
Ninja could be a skill guy, and is usually thought to be not that powerful (this is the complete adventurer ninja).
Samurai is usually accepted as the weakest of the "fighter guy" classes (unless you go crazy with intimidation optimization, as I heard someone did). Another option would be Hexblade, I suppose (although that goes against niche protection), or maybe Swashbuckler.

Interesting that I could have a particular flavour with a party with ninja, samurai and monk (and then destroy that flavour with warmage) :)

So I am trying to go for a low-Tier, low-power party, one the fills the niches, as it were (Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Thief, and what the heck Monk). Obviously there are more powerful contenders, but this is not about that. Are these classes balanced against each other? If one is too powerful, is there a less powerful version that fills the same niche (without going into NPC classes just yet)?

I would suggest seriously thinking about Dragon Shaman (for a buffer/healer role), or Adept. Adept is an NPC class, true, but it has a lot of flexibility and support casting that Warmage lacks.

[Particle_Man]

I find it amusing that the disdain for the warmage is universal. :)

However, I am trying to key the party to the warmage level -- I want the "blaster" in the party, and I know there are more powerful blasters, so I want to lower the party power level to that of the warmage.

[true_shinken]

Warmage looks a bit too strong for your purposes, actually. So does Hexblade.

[Particle_Man]

That is interesting. Maybe I just want to see what a party of the "weak in their niche" classes looks like. Warmage is the weak arcane blaster, Healer is the weak, well, healer, Ninja is the weak skill monkey. Swashbuckler and Knight are thought to be weak fighter-types, as are Monk and (what the heck) Soul Knife. The Fighter is thought to be a weak fighter-type, but oddly, since what they are is a collection of extra feats to build off of, they actually lose their "niche" as a class compared to classes that have a stronger identity qua niche, like Knight or Swashbuckler.

Trouble is, most of the latter are a full tier down from Warmage, now that I look at it.

So either I play w/o a Warmage and check out all the other weak classes, or I play other classes at the same tier as Warmage, or I have a party where the Warmage is clearly more powerful than the others (but if all the W. does is blast stuff, is that as important?).

Lessee, Warmage blasts stuff, Knight tanks to protect Warmage, Ninja sneaks around doing Ninja stuff, Healer heals where needed, Soulknife and Monk do hit and runs. Swashbuckler is an extra warrior and "face" character. It might work. If I ban the Arcane Disciple feat, that would keep the Warmage down a bit, I think.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You have forgotten the CW Samurai. They definitely beat out the swashbuckler/knight for worst (non-NPC) fighter class.

Warmage should be alright, as long as you prevent shenanigans that add overmuch to his spell list. And try not to go to too high a level - even warmages do eventually get SoLs, you know.

EDIT: I'm actually slowing working on a project to update the warmage spell list , taking some spells off and replacing them, and outright adding a few (like detect magic. Come ON, Wizards, seriously?). I'll probably post it somewher for Playground input eventually.

[T.G. Oskar]

Bit of shameless self-promotion, but you can start through here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7293210&postcount=2). It's surprising to know that the Warmage's spell list is comprised of a few Druid blasting spells, actually.

It all depends on what you want to go with the Warmage. I went with reinforcing the blasting while providing some scouting and buffing spells; you may go differently. In fact, don't neglect Divination and Transmutation spells, and the usual Abjuration; the first is great for scouting, the second is great for buffing, and the third tops off the mastery of blasting by providing ways to negate the ability of others to blast. Oh, and little to no Enchantment or Illusion spells; they ain't "flashy" or "subtle" by any means.

[MeeposFire]

Actually I think enchantment and illusion are about the most subtle you can get in magic.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Samurai is usually accepted as the weakest of the "fighter guy" classes (unless you go crazy with intimidation optimization, as I heard someone did).

Glad to hear my efforts have gained in notoriety.

You know, it is entirely possible to optimize each of these classes.

Intimidation Samurai, of course, is an obvious example in my desc

Healers eventually end up being a Coutal with a healbot stuck on their back for flavor, if you use it right

Warmages can get stupidly obscene damage numbers with abuse of Metamagic and reducers thereof.

Monk would be the hardest to optimize fully... one day I may well take on that challenge, in fact. But today is not that day.

Ninja is surprisingly nasty, actually. It's pathetically easy to get opponents flat-footed, when all is said and done.

Hexblade is a fairly powerful option. Significantly moreso than a Paladin is. In fact, if you wanted a low-power fighter, Core Paladin would be a good low-tier choice.

If you want to complete Samurai/Monk/Ninja, you could always throw in a Wu Jen, they're fairly sub-par, for a caster.

[T.G. Oskar]

Actually I think enchantment and illusion are about the most subtle you can get in magic.

*facepalm* I was referring to the Warmage; the Warmage isn't by any means subtle. Probably flashy, but it's because of all the explosions they do; however, not "flashy" in terms of doing spectacular fireworks and complex patterns or surprising mental tricks as enchanters, illusionists and beguilers do.

[MeeposFire]

*facepalm* I was referring to the Warmage; the Warmage isn't by any means subtle. Probably flashy, but it's because of all the explosions they do; however, not "flashy" in terms of doing spectacular fireworks and complex patterns or surprising mental tricks as enchanters, illusionists and beguilers do.

Now that makes much more sense!:smallcool:

[Particle_Man]

I think I am getting happier with this. I was checking also what skills would be left as class skills for whom. Then I looked at the NPC classes. So I think I would eliminate the Adept (that way we have two types of magic - helping and hurting with healer and warmage, also a nice duality with Ninja (goes for flat-footed) and Knight (avoids taking the bonus for same), now I think on it). I would also eliminate the UMD skill (or experts would rule this world) and knowledge (psionics) (because with only soul knives from the psionics book, what is there to know, really?).

So (provisionally) I have a world with Warmages, Healers, Knights, Ninjas, Soul Knives, Monks, Swashbucklers, Aristocrats, Experts, Warriors and Commoners, the latter 4 being NPC only. I would adjust monster spell lists accordingly (so dragons us warmage spell lists with access to healer spells instead of a sorcerer spell list with access to cleric spells, for example). Also, eliminate any magic items that duplicate spells that don't exist (perhaps even magic items that have (for their creation) spell prerequisites that don't exist).

So with that kind of world, what do I need to think of in terms of providing encounters that are good, but not too tough? We are not dealing with tier 1s and 2s (or even 3s) here, but on the other hand I am not in Tier 6 territory. Would standard CR encounters be ok? Anything I would need to watch out for? First of the bat, no one can turn undead. Second, a lot of the utility spells are gone.

The gods would be beneficial, but perhaps distant, as would most inter-planar entities. Until the healer gets Gate anyhow.

[Daftendirekt]

Now that makes much more sense!:smallcool:

It's amazing what correct grammar does, right? Maybe if he'd said "warmages aren't" instead of "they ain't", there would be no confusion.

[Bang!]

It's amazing what correct grammar does, right? Maybe if he'd said "warmages aren't" instead of "they ain't", there would be no confusion.It's cool that you can nitpick TGO's grammar, but subbing in the word "aren't" doesn't exactly specify the antecedent.

[Lateral]

I think he meant that it would have worked better if T.G. Oskar hadn't used a pronoun.

[JaronK]

The group in the OP would work, though note that the Warmage may actually outshine some folks, and if your players don't know what they're doing it'll be really easy for that Ninja to feel useless (they'll have to get creative to make sure enemies don't have dexterity). Also, the Healer might get really bored... Healers are just a really boring class.

I find that this sort of thing works best if the characters are built for teamwork... Knights work well with Ninjas by locking enemies down to a degree, and if someone could cast Grease somehow it would work even better. Though if the CW Samurai goes with Imperious Command he could actually be impressive, and remember that if he cowers enemies before they've acted yet they remain flat footed until they act. That could work well.

JaronK

[Greenish]

Knights work well with Ninjas by locking enemies down to a degree, and if someone could cast Grease somehow it would work even better.Amusingly, the knight's code doesn't allow one to attack flat-footed enemies, so someone loses either way. :smalltongue:

[JaronK]

Oh god, I missed that. That's horrible. Fine, no Knight. Samurai rocking the Imperious Command works much better.

JaronK

[erikun]

The Warmage is weak at blasting? I was under the impression that it was rather good at blasting. The problem is that it doesn't do anything other than blasting.

Remember that the ubercharger build - the one that can deal 6000 damage a round - is still tier 4, the same as the Warmage. Tier 4 classes can be very good at one thing, but are generally only good at that one thing.

Then again, I admit that the Warmage/Healer duality does look nice. I'd be rather curious how a Warmage/Healer/MT fares in your world, although I'd think a Warmage with a few levels in Swashbuckler (for that INT-to-AC ability) would be more useful.

Please note that is has been a very long time since I read the Swashbuckler class, so I have be misremembering something.

Slightly off topic, but the Knight could certainly help the Ninja flank. They would just need to attack someone else, or step out of flanking to make an attack (and the Ninja stepping into the appropriate flanking position for their attack during their turn).

[Cog]

The Warmage is weak at blasting? I was under the impression that it was rather good at blasting. The problem is that it doesn't do anything other than blasting.
It can't pick many of the odder blast spells, many of the spells it does get are redundant, and it doesn't have an easy way around the spontaneous metamagic problem.

Swashbuckler gets Int to finesse-attack damage, not AC.

Edit: Flanking doesn't trigger Sudden Strike.

[JaronK]

The Warmage is weak at blasting? I was under the impression that it was rather good at blasting. The problem is that it doesn't do anything other than blasting.

Sadly, Wings of Flurry (the best blast spell in existence) isn't his to begin with... he'll need Advanced Learning for that. And he can't metamagic it without using a full action. Not that he's horrible mind you, but just as the Cleric, Crusader, and Binder are better healers than the Healer, the Sorcerer is a better blaster than the Warmage. He's also missing staple attack spells like Glitterdust.

Of course, for this discussion the Warmage is plenty strong.

JaronK

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It can't pick many of the odder blast spells, many of the spells it does get are redundant, and it doesn't have an easy way around the spontaneous metamagic problem.

Swashbuckler gets Int to finesse-attack damage, not AC.

Edit: Flanking doesn't trigger Sudden Strike.

Rapid Metamagic feat negates the full round action of a spontaneous metamagic application. You can pick it up at level 9.

[Cog]

While Sorcerers can pick it up with an ACF from day one.

[Aemoh87]

I am trying to construct a "niche" party but a low-powered one, using PC base classes from Wotc. Assume no multi-classing (and hence no prestige classes).

So the healer's role seems to fit for: the healer (natch).
The warmage is the classes "blow stuff up with magic" role, and is widely accepted as the weakest of the arcane full casters.
Monk is the monk. :)
Ninja could be a skill guy, and is usually thought to be not that powerful (this is the complete adventurer ninja).
Samurai is usually accepted as the weakest of the "fighter guy" classes (unless you go crazy with intimidation optimization, as I heard someone did). Another option would be Hexblade, I suppose (although that goes against niche protection), or maybe Swashbuckler.

Interesting that I could have a particular flavour with a party with ninja, samurai and monk (and then destroy that flavour with warmage) :)

So I am trying to go for a low-Tier, low-power party, one the fills the niches, as it were (Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Thief, and what the heck Monk). Obviously there are more powerful contenders, but this is not about that. Are these classes balanced against each other? If one is too powerful, is there a less powerful version that fills the same niche (without going into NPC classes just yet)?

Instead of Warmage go Wu Jen!

[Kuulvheysoon]

Instead of Warmage go Wu Jen!

Don't do this. Wu Jen get a powerful and versatile spell list. They'd destroy every other class/character in your world at every level past 5th.

Warmages are acceptable precisely BECAUSE of their flaws. Plain damage is overall much better suited to what the OP is looking for.

[nedz]

Why are you limiting Aristocrat to NPC roles?
It would make an interesting alternative for the tank.
OK its only 3/4 BAB but it gets Martial weapons and all Armours and Shield.
It also has decent face skills.
Its very light on class features and feats, but it might work in your party.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

While Sorcerers can pick it up with an ACF from day one.

Int mod number of times per day. Considering Sorcerers cast off of Charisma, rather than Int, it's generally not a very high score, almost seen as a 'dump stat' for 90% of the Sorcerer builds I've seen, this is not as good as you think it is.

It lets you qualify for Quicken Spell earlier, but you'll still want to pick it up if you plan on heavily utilizing metamagic.

[Cog]

3+Int, but I hadn't remembered that restriction at all so it's a fair point. Still, that's only one of of the multiple reasons Warmage is less effective at blasting.

[Kuulvheysoon]

...People dump Intelligence on their sorcs? I've always dumped WIS unless I'm going for some Arcane Disciple.

[Bang!]

Wu Jen blows, for a prepared spellcaster with 9th level spells and a deep spell list.

Unfortunately, that qualifier's a doozy.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Wu Jen blows, for a prepared spellcaster with 9th level spells and a deep spell list.


...Are we looking at the same class, here? Page 15, Complete Arcane?

Why on earth do you think that it sucks?

[GoatBoy]

Interesting that I could have a particular flavour with a party with ninja, samurai and monk (and then destroy that flavour with warmage) :)

Make the warmage a eunuch and you're all set.

[Cog]

Make the warmage a eunuch and you're all set.
I don't think you need to take the Orb spells off their class list.

[Particle_Man]

Why am I now thinking of The Soprano Sorceress? :smallbiggrin:

[GoatBoy]

I don't think you need to take the Orb spells off their class list.

*Slow clap*

[Particle_Man]

By the way, I am grateful for your feedback, folks. This is beginning to be a proto-campaign idea in my head (assuming I can sell players on it, of course).

[Bang!]

...Are we looking at the same class, here? Page 15, Complete Arcane?

Why on earth do you think that it sucks?
Maybe I should phrase that differently:
Wu Jen sucks, for being one of the 8-10 most versatile and powerful base classes in the game.

I think it's getting all these weird recommendations here because it has slightly fewer spell options than the core wizard.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

By the way, I am grateful for your feedback, folks. This is beginning to be a proto-campaign idea in my head (assuming I can sell players on it, of course).

Eh, I wouldn't play in it, but mostly because I'm not a big fan of the concept.

T3 classes I would play. In fact, I think using Warlock as your 'arcane caster' would work out just fine, when paired up with the ToB classes for your melee side. If you use the PhB II 'aspect' variant of Druid, rather than Wild Shape, it neatly trims the class down to something on a reasonable power level.

Of course, being forced to play in said game, I would be sorely tempted to apply the entirety of my skills to making the most overpowered example of the class I chose to play just to spite your 'no, your characters all suck now' world concept. I doubt you'd like the result. But then, that is the inspiration I had for Takahashi no Onisan, the scariest samurai alive. Assuming I didn't just dust off the first version of him that beat Fistbeard Beardfist (and was a straight Samurai 13), I'd probably either make a Ninja able to one-shot anything in your game, or a Warmage-based Mailman.

In short, prove that while the Tier System works in general, there are specific tricks which can significantly alter the effective tier of any given character, regardless of class.

[Particle_Man]

That's fine. I would simply keep nerfing the exploits. :)

By the way, assuming the classes as I outline them, are there ways I should modify the world so that the classes as outlined do not feel useless? Any special monster abilities or trap conditions I would need to watch out for?

[Bang!]

By the way, assuming the classes as I outline them, are there ways I should modify the world so that the classes as outlined do not feel useless?
Don't make them useless. You'd be working against the system a little bit, but if your characters stopped having class abilities (which is basically what a Soulknife/Samurai/Swashbuckler lineup is going to look like), you can allow improvisational aspects of a rules-light mentality. This is the main reason I like the weaker classes.

For example, let a Samurai knock someone down with a thrown chair or kick somebody down the stairs with: A) a chance of success and B) a meaningful effect.

This normally doesn't work in D&D, because letting characters do fun things without explicit rules support lets the Gish character knock people over with thrown chairs for free, while the Drunken Master/Bloodstorm Blade has to dedicate nine levels and three feats to do the same thing.

[Lans]

You might also consider Divine Mind as a bard replacement, most people consider it tier 6, though I think its more inline with tier 5.

Soulborn is another option.

[Particle_Man]

I will have to look at those more closely. It was also suggested I find a class to fill the archer niche. Trouble is, I am not sure how to do that without using a class too powerful for the set of characters I have in mind. Any thoughts?

[Abemad]

Well, a fighter would make a decent archer... Or then there's the scout?

[nedz]

I think the healer would make a fine Archer. OK Fighter and Scout are strictly better at this, but thats not the point of this party.

[Mayhem]

I think the ninja makes a nice archer what with sudden strike and all. The scout eclipses the ninja in many ways( being a beter skill monkey, has trapfinding, and skirmish), so I'm not sure if it's appropriate unless you change it. The non-magical ranger from CW could work if you restrict the combat style to archery.