Ranged Sneak Attack [3.5]

[SilverLeaf167]

It is cool and has some advantages, but are there any reliable ways to get Sneak Attack with a ranged weapon more often than once every encounter? Flanking doesn't work, and hiding after attacking is practically impossible.

[gomipile]

Deadeye Shot from PHBII. Once per round, if an ally hits a target in melee. Pretty useful in low to mid-op campaigns with a reasonable party composition.

[Abemad]

Or telling blow from Cadv (i think...), add sneak attack damage on a critical hit, and get a weapon with a high crit chance (although the only one i can think of is a keen crossbow...)

[SilverLeaf167]

Thanks for the help.
I'm taking Deadeye Shot. I'll also use the Distract Assailant spell (this is for a gestalt Factotum/Assassin), Invisibility and a dagger as a back-up weapon.

[manyslayer]

Gestalt with a pixie for always invisible.

[Eldariel]

Grease-spell from Wand makes people on it flat-footed unless they have 5 ranks in Balance (0 MM creatures have any and only Monk+Rogue of the standard NPCs take it). Greater Invisibility and Ring of Blinking are the midgame solutions (Blinking qualifies you for SA against anyone without See Invis & al. pretty much and Greater Invisibility is obvious).

[Apophis]

If you have a Ranger in your party, the Distracting Shot ACF for them would be useful for you.

[Forged Fury]

Blinking qualifies you for SA...You just have to contend with the miss chance and ghost touch sadly doesn't help since you're not only incorporeal, but extraplanar as well.

[Eldariel]

You just have to contend with the miss chance and ghost touch sadly doesn't help since you're not only incorporeal, but extraplanar as well.

It's technically possible to bypass it with Pierce Magical Concealment but that is kinda feat-heavy. Still, yeah, you do get a lot of good for the 20% miss chance you get, like 50% miss chance for opponents and attacking as invisible.

[Thespianus]

Quickened Grease + Full Attack w. ranged weapons ;)

[Coidzor]

Well, if you have a Ranger friend, there's an ACF you can bribe him into taking that'd allow you to have flanking on anything he's hit.

Not really going to be a factor in most cases though, I'll admit.

[Re'ozul]

Master Thrower from Complete Warrior.

A 1 level dip gets you the sneaky shot trick that allows you to make a sleight of hand check versus the opponents spot check as a move action. If you win the target loses its dex bonus against the next attack.

[Firechanter]

How about Blur? That's just a level 2 spell, it lasts mins/level and also grants concealment, so isn't that enough to use Hide?

As opposed to Blink, you have no miss chance yourself, and a permanent item should cost only half as much as much less than a Ring of Blinking.

Actually less than half, because it's a lower level spell and should also require a lower caster level.
Then again, Ring of Blinking is much, much cheaper than it ought to be as per the DMG item creation rules.

[Eldariel]

How about Blur? That's just a level 2 spell, it lasts mins/level and also grants concealment, so isn't that enough to use Hide?

As opposed to Blink, you have no miss chance yourself, and a permanent item should cost only half as much as a Ring of Blinking.

Permanent item of Blur costs 20k; it's called "Cloak of Minor Displacement". But no, the point here isn't to allow you to Hide, it's to make your targets lose their Dex-bonus to AC, something Blink does. Hiding while attacking is pretty hard (-20) and you can't hide if observed anyways.

[Firechanter]

Aren't there also Sniper feats that are supposed to help with that?

Apart from that: I am guessing that Shadowdancer is out of the question? Yes it has a stupid three-feat tax, but it does grant HiPS potentially at level 8, and you only need one level in it, really.

[Thespianus]

A
Sorry, but I'm going to stop you right there.

You, sir, have a fantastic signature. I *love* it.

[Forged Fury]

It's technically possible to bypass it with Pierce Magical Concealment but that is kinda feat-heavy.
I'm not sure if that would work in this case since the person who would have to have the Pierce Magical Concealment feat would also be the one with the Blink spell active. I'm not sure if you can pierce your own magical concealment in that manner. I haven't read the feat in a while though.

[Cog]

Your fierce contempt for magic allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities such as darkness, blur...
There's no language even suggesting that it only applies to somebody else's spell; the feat applies to any miss chance.

[gomipile]

Wouldn't a Force bow (MiC) get around the miss chance from a ring of blinking?

[Firechanter]

You, sir, have a fantastic signature. I *love* it.

Thanks. ^^ The original (i.e. the crossed-out parts) I found on Project Rho (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/index.php), a site about one of my other hobbyhorses, Hard Science Fiction. It basically refers to the perpetual discussions on "Stealth in Space" and such. And yeah, I spontaneously felt reminded of it after poring through a number of optimization threads. ;)

[Cog]

Force effects go material -> ethereal but not the other way around.

[ericgrau]

Improved precise shot and a grappler in your party also works. As does glitterdust. Basically cooperate with your party somehow or spend a small fortune to do it yourself and there are a dozen ways.

Telling blow seems like a trap, as crits are unreliable. Which means you need another SA trigger anyway.

Shadowdancer works. Most overused 1 level dip ever though :smalltongue:.

[Coidzor]

Wands of Glitterdust and Grease are favorite options, aren't they?

[ericgrau]

Yeup, you can always do it yourself. The thing is by the time you can afford grease (and not cheaply, mind you) the wizard has glitterdust and by the time you can afford glitterdust the wizard has greater invisibility to tag you with. So you can always do it yourself in a pinch but cooperation is better when possible.

[Eldariel]

Wands of Glitterdust and Grease are favorite options, aren't they?

Wand of Glitterdust less so since the target gets a save vs. the relevant effect (and Wands have awful save DCs); for Grease the important part is that they are balancing and as such, the save is just icing.

[gallagher]

the most reliable way that i can think of is greater invisibility... which isnt hard to come across as every arcanist worth his salt takes it if he is thinking of his party.

[Forged Fury]

There's no language even suggesting that it only applies to somebody else's spell; the feat applies to any miss chance.Ah, I see the rationale now.

I tend to fall in the camp that believes Pierce Magical Concealment doesn't apply to the miss chance related to being ethereal. It's not that you have a miss chance because you can't see your opponent, it's because you're on a completely different plane when your attack would have otherwise connected. The blink spell even indicates that Blind-Fight, a pre-req for PMC, is completly ineffective against the ethereal miss chance related component of the spell. Certainly, Blind-Fight and PMC are different feats, but it seems reasonable to me. I know a number of people argue against this, but to me it starts sounding like the rationale behind Iron Heart Surge stopping the sun.

[Eldariel]

Ah, I see the rationale now.

I tend to fall in the camp that believes Pierce Magical Concealment doesn't apply to the miss chance related to being ethereal. It's not that you have a miss chance because you can't see your opponent, it's because you're on a completely different plane when your attack would have otherwise connected. The blink spell even indicates that Blind-Fight, a pre-req for PMC, is completly ineffective against the ethereal miss chance related component of the spell. Certainly, Blind-Fight and PMC are different feats, but it seems reasonable to me. I know a number of people argue against this, but to me it starts sounding like the rationale behind Iron Heart Surge stopping the sun.

Meh. That's really...the fluff of PMC is just plain stupid, not only in that regard but every other regard ever also. I just ignore it. "Your fierce contempt of magic allows you to ignore it!" Yeah, bullcrap. That doesn't work. And if it did, it would be a class feature of Barbarian, not a feat. And magic would be totally different from what it is; make-belief instead of a world-altering power. It just...it flies in the face of every settings in D&D and how they function. And how the heck can you only ignore magical miss chances? Why can't you ignore Forcecages or Walls of Force 'cause of your contempt of magic? Or even Simulacrums? Why aren't you immune to Illusions? How the heck do you see through Invisibility by having contempt for it? As it's not rules text, it's not even RAW or anything; it's just few random lines someone thought sounded badass and slapped onto a perfectly fine feat (managing to completely spoil it in the process).

Let's try something like: You've practiced fighting various magical illusions and spell-based defenses and know exactly where the guy really is based on the figment; you also can time your attacks when he's not on the Ethereal plane with Blink. It's just plain skill. That works. And it doesn't matter what's the reason of the miss chance, as long as you can hit, you will.

[Forged Fury]

Rant about PMC's stupid flavor text. I 100% agree with the rant BTW.My issue isn't really with the flavor text, although it is very melodramatic. My issue is that I believe the intent of the feat is to ignore spells that generate miss chance by virtue of creating concealment. I think the Blind-Fight feat pre-requisite is a good indicator of this. I think the spells listed also support this viewpoint as all of them provide miss chance due to concealment. IIRC the feat even includes a line that says something to the effect of ignoring other spells that create concealment like effects, such as casting a Slient Image of a fog bank. The Blink spell, on the other hand, provides its miss chance partially from concealment and partially from the benefit of being extraplanar. I have no problem with PMC overcoming the concealment related miss chance, but I personally think expanding it to include the extraplanar part goes beyond the intent of the feat. The ethereal related miss chance is the miss chance someone benefitting from Blink suffers when they make an attack, as such I don't think PMC helps here.

TL; DR: I think there is a distinct difference between miss chance and concealment related miss chance. I believe PMC only applies to the latter.

[Cog]

IIRC the feat even includes a line that says something to the effect of ignoring other spells that create concealment like effects, such as casting a Slient Image of a fog bank.
Just the opposite. It pierces Permanent Image and even overcomes Mirror Image (which isn't phrased as a miss chance at all).

[Forged Fury]

Just the opposite. It pierces Permanent Image and even overcomes Mirror Image (which isn't phrased as a miss chance at all).
My use of "ignoring" was refering to the character with the feat being able to ignore the miss chance created by the spell, even if the spell (like Silent Image or Permanent Image) doesn't specify that ability in its description. The additional benefit with respect to Mirror Image is a specific, defined additional benefit of the feat.

In any event, neither point above supports applying PMC to non-concealment based miss chances, with the exception of Mirror Image which is specifically defined as a benefit of the feat.