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Gamer Girl
2011-04-26, 01:05 PM
No matter what game system you use, the rule books only cover a tiny bit of stuff, even if they are 1,000 pages long. This can leave a lot for a GM to cover. A basic problem is Game Reality vs Game Fantasy.

Game Reality--The 'game' exists in a fictional world almost exactly like Earth and for the most part everything we know about common reality is also true in the game world. For example, wood burns in a fire, glass is weak and fragile, water flows downhill, and so forth. None of this is stated anywhere in the rules of the game, but it's all common sense.

Game Fantasy--Nothing is real. It's all a game. Nothing matters and anything can be anything. If the game does not have a rule for it, then it does not exist in the game world. A person in the game world is free to do anything not covered by the rules with no bad effects and rejects if the GM attempts to use common sense and will say that is not part of the rules. For example, you can burn dirt in a fire, glass is indestructible, water flows up hill and so forth.

Special NoteWe are not talking about where a GM makes a special world with all special rules, but a more common default campaign setting that is almost just like Earth.


So, in a typical common default campaign setting that is almost just like Earth, how do you handle player actions, especially the loopy 'It's not real' players, such as:


1.In General, Do you give any Negative Effects for Character Actions?

Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.

Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth

Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep

ExampleA character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipment

ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)

Yukitsu
2011-04-26, 01:16 PM
Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.

Real people wear heavy coats with hoods. They don't lose much in the way of hearing or vision, as we rotate our heads to see, unlike a horse or something that just sees sideways. We don't use our peripheral to spot effectively, and most hoods don't deter hearing in any relevant sense. This only makes sense if you start using facing rules which are pretty universally clunky and dull.


Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth

Nothing says we can't in real life either.


Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep

Nothing says we can't in real life either.


ExampleA character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipment

If you've thought through this, you'll know that potions cease to be adventurer gear. Ditto to anything in the game with fewer than 20 hit points. Frankly, the rules abuse for including this rule far outweigh the supposed benefits of "versimillitude", as pretty much every fighter, wizard, whatever is just going to mash enemies against wall with dungeon crasher or telekinesis, destroying all of the gear on them with fewer than 20 hit points.


ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)

Why is it not in the rules that an enemy can grab it? It's sleight of hand DC what, 15, no opposed check for an item you're not holding in your hand?

As for tripping over it, real people aren't that clumsy.

For these examples, they're more arbitrary than realistic. I can't imagine them adding anything to a game, and they certainly draw more attention to discrepencies between reality and the game than just admitting it's not a model of reality that we're trying to play here.

McSmack
2011-04-26, 01:21 PM
Well I don't truck with that crap. I'm very firmly of the Game Reality mindset.

I suppose I could, if the mood struck me, turn that crap right around and use it on the players. Just because it's a game and there isn't a specific rule for it doesn't mean they get to abuse reality at a whim (unless they're a tier 1:smalltongue:) Once the bad guys start having potions of heal in their mouths ready for consumption, or gravity suddenly shifts and unattended gear starts to fly away into the sky, that crap will stop being amusing real quick.

But I probably wouldn't do that. I'd simply say "no that doesn't work, because 1- it's ridiculous and illogical and 2- because I said so, and I make the rules." The rule books aren't law, they're suggestions that I may or may not use at my whim. This isn't a democracy, it's a Smack-tatorship, and if you don't like it the door's to your left.

But then again I'm kind of a jerk.

Comet
2011-04-26, 01:23 PM
If the player acts silly, I either join in on the silly stuff and embrace it or just tell the guy to stop being silly.

If you start devising all sorts of elaborate plans to make his character trip over his silly plans, you are basically giving those plans power by involving them in the game to begin with. Just say no if you think the game will suffer from whatever the silly person is planning.

In general I really like to use metagaming to avoid situations like this. Plans are first presented out-of-character and only executed "for real" if everyone at the table agrees that said plan is either not stupid or stupid in a way that makes the game better for everyone.

What matters, in the end and for me, is the end result. I don't mind my "immersion" or whatever being broken by out-of-character discussion. I don't play RPGs to become a character or escape reality. I play them to create a cool story and that pretty much requires out-of-character interaction for everyone at the table to avoid these kinds of situations where the reality of the fiction shatters to a million pieces because people aren't willing to say "no, that's just too silly, let's think of something else".

Apophis
2011-04-26, 01:24 PM
Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.

Nope. It wouldn't be that much of a problem.


Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth

I wouldn't mind if they kept the potion in their mouths, but talking and casting spells (without the Silent Spell feat) would be impossible.


Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep

No. That doesn't make much sense, unless they are narcoleptic.


ExampleA character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipment

I'd use the rules for Sundering carried/worn item. Falling would destroy some of the bottles.


ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)

an enemy could grab it (it would probably provoke an AoO), and I would have the character make a balance check every time they moved to make sure they don't trip.

Sebastrd
2011-04-26, 01:29 PM
Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.

No. In my opinion this is a matter of asthetics and I won't penalize a player for this sort of role playing.


Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth

No. This doesn't pass the "common sense" rule.


Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep

The rules generally don't explicitly say "sleep", rather they often say "rest". As long as the characters are "resting" for 8 hours, I believe that satisfies the intent of the rules. However, I have never had the "15 minute adventuring day" problem in my games.


ExampleA character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipment

Again, does not pass the "common sense" rule.


ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)

I've never had a player try this. That being said, the rope does not need to be long enough to trip the character in order for this trick to work. And I'd wonder why a monster would be trying to grab a torch-on-a-rope flying around instead of just grabbing the character.


In general, if a player is playing fast and loose with the laws of physics for a mechanical benefit, I won't allow it.

Nohwl
2011-04-26, 01:34 PM
Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep


you don't need to sleep the whole time to prepare spells, so i guess you could stare at a wall for 8 hours to get them back.


Rest
To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

Morghen
2011-04-26, 01:55 PM
1.In General, Do you give any Negative Effects for Character Actions?See my post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10863643&postcount=42).


Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.If something was approaching from the side, the character would not see it. Something that is quiet anyway would be hard for them to hear.


Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouthI'd hit them with exhaustion effects for breathing exclusively out of their nose. I'd also try to drop surprise on them and then make them save to avoid swallowing or aspirating the potion. Also, talking and casting spells with verbal components is impossible with a mouthful of liquid.


Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep.No, a character cannot sleep at will. Absurd.


ExampleA character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipmentAs soon as you start getting hit with physical attacks that crap starts making saving throws against crushing blow.


ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)I would DEFinitely drop a portcullis on that thing. And strong monsters would use it to reel him in. And it would light things on fire, like characters running behind him.

Re: Anybody using the torch on a rope thing: That's a noob move. Cast Continual Light on a coin, drill a hole in the coin, run a strip of leather through the hole, tie it around your neck.

Earthwalker
2011-04-26, 02:03 PM
Yeah on the whole I would just treat things as you describe as game reality. I would simply talk to the player trying these things and work out what they are trying to do. If there is not a rule we would make one up if it was needed.

The thing is alot of these are silly and I would letter the player know that.

valadil
2011-04-26, 02:09 PM
The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.

Yes, but the penalty is so minor I don't even count it. In D&D, I might give that a -0.2. It's just not worth the effort of adding up all those little bonuses. I think high ground usually ends up here as well.

But I have played games that use different scales than D&D. MERP ranges stats from 1-100. In MERP you can get a penalty for wearing a helmet. Arm and leg armor provide penalties as well. But MERP is on a scale where those miniscule bonuses fit.

A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth

I'd make them LARP it.

Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep

A person can rest at will. Honestly I haven't had this problem. I don't usually do dungeons. And when I have, they've been time sensitive. I think that if sleeping after 15 minutes of work was ever a viable solution, I'd be bored of my own game.

A character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipment

If I'm going to bother with this kind of thing, I'll warn the players before bad things happen. And usually I wouldn't do it for potions. Maybe a fragile MacGuffin.

I think I can justify adventuring gear being more durable than other gear. You aren't storing potions in wine glasses. If every other adventurer shatters his potions, he'll start storing them in flasks or skins. I just don't see the point of getting into a potion protection arms race. It adds tedium to the game rather than fun.

The character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)

I don't think I'd tolerate that kind of argument. The rules also don't specify that a rope can attach to a torch or to your arm. I'm allowing the player to use a rope like a rope because it's common sense. The rope should continue to behave as common sense would indicate. You can't just turn off common sense rulings as soon as they become inconvenient.

Personally I think that assuming that the world functions exactly by the rules is ridiculous. You'd need a hell of a lot more rules to make the world work. I don't want to have to buy the Rope Compendium to attach a rope to my arm or check the Rope Compendium Errata to find the missing paragraph about attaching a rope to my torch.

Instead I accept that the game can't define everything. In which case, it's the GM's role to fill in the gaps. I don't think I could game with someone who felt otherwise.

Trinoya
2011-04-26, 02:26 PM
I adjusted the gravity of my world so the rules make sense.

Some would argue that I take the realism a bit too seriously.

That said: I keep in mind the fact that it is a fantasy world, but it's a world of laws and physics to boot. If you fall from a sufficient hieght you're going to die. Sometimes you don't get evasion because there is simply no way to evade the attack.


It's led to some pretty interesting debates with some players, it's also led to some interesting uses of spells and rules (such as stone shape to trap enemies so they can suffocate to death, alone in the darkness). My players are more crafty knowing that if they truly try to go around me on the justification of, "It's a fantasy game," or worse yet, "it's not in the rules..." that I will smack them so hard with gravity, force, volume, mass, and density that their grand children will pass physics 101.

I've been known to use real world physics and mechanics as weapons...

Needless to say, certain damage values were revised... and some things were right out (no, your monk can NOT deflect a cannon ball, a musket bullet, or a ballista bolt the size of a small tree, but by all means try).

Of course the players are now getting very crafty and turning my weapon of physics back upon me... it's only a matter of time...

<_<

>_>

matter.... of.... . time...

Delwugor
2011-04-26, 03:33 PM
Through my GMing style and the style of campaigns I usually run these issues don't come up very often. That being said:
The Rule of Cool applies first and formost. A character with immediate access to a healing potion instantly after a hit is not cool and is told no. A character crawling away to get his last healing potion before he slips into unconciousness is cool and is told yes.

Totally Guy
2011-04-26, 03:44 PM
I can't imagine any of those sorts of examples being relevant in any game on my shelf besides maybe Dungeons and Dragons.

Frozen_Feet
2011-04-26, 04:03 PM
When I first explained how I lead a game to my current group, I told them that rules don't cover everything, and encouraged them to use common sense and real-life thinking. As such, my problem hasn't been that they're trying to abuse loopholes of the game rules, but that they constantly try to introduce solutions from our reality that are poorly supported by either the game or the setting. But those I can shoot down or react to because quite often, I outsmart my players. >=D

In any case, concepts of karma, action and reaction, choice and consequence are heavily present in my games. Stupid ideas frequently have just as stupid results as you'd expect.


Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.

I wouldn't give them mechanical penalties, because very few systems have the kind of granularity that'd justify such. Instead, when the player fails a relevant skill check, I'll attribute that failure to the hood.

Another example: my players' characters are quite off-the-wall in appearance and habits, if I stop and think about it. However, if they're hiring retainers, I don't give any penalties for it since it's not supported by the rules. But if they fail at a Charisma check to hire them, I'll give the players a glimpse of how bizarre and untrustworthy their ragtag bunch of misfits seems.


Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth

If a potion is poured into your mouth, you've already drank it. Swallowing it isn't even necessary, as the effect gets absorbed through tissue. If you really want to have such an emergency potion, you make it into a small capsule and hide it in your tooth, which you bite to break when you need it. :smallbiggrin:


Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep

I guess this traces to a D&D specific oddity, and comes from a simple misunderstanding. Resting does not equal sleeping. It's very possible to do exhausting work for a short while, then just idle for the rest of the day. The 15 min workday is possible, it's just incredibly lazy and time inefficient.

In general, I would not allow straight up sleep. But if my players want their characters to never leave bed, so be it. :smallbiggrin:


ExampleA character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipment

Fair? Fair? Ahahaha... *snicker*. Oh man. Such a jest. Say buh-bye to those potions. >=D


ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)

I've not actually played a game where the monster is prohibited from taking such an action. As such, my answer is wholly hypothetical. Still, if I'd see a logical reason to do so, sure I'd screw a player over for such tactic. On the other hand, I might reward it as well if it's useful in a situation.

Lord Vampyre
2011-04-26, 04:53 PM
So, in a typical common default campaign setting that is almost just like Earth, how do you handle player actions, especially the loopy 'It's not real' players,

For the most part, I handle these situations on a case by case basis. My players are informed upfront that I am the final authority in the game. If they don't like it, tough.

I allow them thier 15 minute workday, but time still moves on. Just because their characters are sitting around, doesn't mean the villain is. If I'm really tired of them sitting in the dungeon waiting to regain their spells, I just have monster patrols find them. I think the 15 minute workday is the result of someone who plays too many video games.


Real people wear heavy coats with hoods. They don't lose much in the way of hearing or vision, as we rotate our heads to see, unlike a horse or something that just sees sideways. We don't use our peripheral to spot effectively, and most hoods don't deter hearing in any relevant sense. This only makes sense if you start using facing rules which are pretty universally clunky and dull.

Actually, this isn't true. We depend quite heavily on our peripheral vision to give us heads up when something is trying to sneak up on us from just outside our field of view. As we catch the movement from our peripheral vision, our heads turn in response to find the source.

However, that being said, I generally ignore any modifiers this would potentially cause. I simply let this one go, favoring the flavor over the realism.


As for tripping over it, real people aren't that clumsy.

Yes, people are that clumsy. Try some fencing with an object tied to a rope, dangling from your arm. It's going to interfere with your abilities.

Not to mention the new fire hazard.

Yukitsu
2011-04-26, 06:38 PM
Actually, this isn't true. We depend quite heavily on our peripheral vision to give us heads up when something is trying to sneak up on us from just outside our field of view. As we catch the movement from our peripheral vision, our heads turn in response to find the source.

However, that being said, I generally ignore any modifiers this would potentially cause. I simply let this one go, favoring the flavor over the realism.

Except sneaking up from directly behind a guy doesn't give a bonus either, nor does walking right in front of them give a penalty. Hence why it makes sense if you use facing, but not in a game that doesn't. And honestly, don't. Those rules are terrible, even if they do add realism to the game.

And even in real life, it'll only give you movement, but honestly most times where you roll checks for this, they aren't moving.


Yes, people are that clumsy. Try some fencing with an object tied to a rope, dangling from your arm. It's going to interfere with your abilities.

Not to mention the new fire hazard.

Light them on fire (which doesn't phase most D&D players), yes, but unless they went with a 5 foot rope so they could swing it around, it shouldn't even fall to their knees. If you tie gear so you can use it, and not drop it, it should fall to approximately your hips, and involve mostly rope around your chest and shoulder.

That and I have gotten into sparring matches where I had something stuck around my knees. If you're jogging around like some kind of twit, you have bigger problems than a dangling obstruction between your knees.

Britter
2011-04-26, 07:08 PM
I can't imagine any of those sorts of examples being relevant in any game on my shelf besides maybe Dungeons and Dragons.

Same. System absolutely does matter in terms of these sorts of situations. They are very DnD-esque and would never be relevant in the games I play. In fact, it is situations like this and the related player mindset that prevent me from having any interest in playing DnD anymore.

Bang!
2011-04-26, 09:28 PM
Game rules mean nothing for settings, except where I think deliberate manipulation would be interesting. Loopholes like D&D's notorious transportation scrums, drown-healing or most of your examples aren't interesting.

I like the sleep one, though. I'd let it slide, and if it came up too much, I could start introducing some reverse-Don't Rest Your Head-style plot elements based on dreams and planar travel or something. Because that could be interesting.

EDIT:
And what Glug and Britter said. This is a D&D question, and it's been a long time since I've played D&D.

Ajadea
2011-04-27, 12:09 AM
So, in a typical common default campaign setting that is almost just like Earth, how do you handle player actions, especially the loopy 'It's not real' players, such as:

1.In General, Do you give any Negative Effects for Character Actions?


Um, yes. Say anything insulting or pitying about this NPC's "little condition"? You're probably getting pointy things shoved in uncomfortable places and you almost surely will not be able to get his help. Step without thinking here and you die horribly, as recently proven by some of the tiles falling away. Throw what amounts to a rather fragile modified potion with unknown effects? Better make that attack roll and Reflex save or suffer the consequences. Spend the night drinking in excess? You wake up hungover, which I would equate roughly to Light Sensitivity+Sickened for the next 1d4 hours if it was relevant (it tends not to be. I have smart PCs).


Example: The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.

No. When they fail their Spot check (they will, I assure you), I will blame it on their hood. When they fail their initiative, I will blame it on the cloak. Might give them a -2 circumstance penalty on Swim, but everything else is just fluff. Fail is here defined as a natural roll of 9 or less + a failure on the check.


Example: A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt...and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth

I don't care if your character wants to walk around with juice in their mouth for the next week. The magic takes effect when it hits your skin. You can't talk, you can't cast spells with verbal components, you cannot sing, and make a Fortitude save whenever you do something stressful, or swallow and choke on the liquid.


Example: Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep)

You can't sleep in bursts like that. You can rest as much as you want.

Meanwhile, I'll be over here destroying civilization. The campaign world doesn't stop for your character's day of bed rest.


Example: A character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipment)

Ahahaa...no. I'd make some of those bottles take damage every time you do. Common sense. Locate some and utilize it please.


ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)

Close enough example:


You (the paladin) fall head over heels over head again, glimpsing strands of sticky blue stuff and dark slime glistening on the walls, before you land on what feels like more of the sticky stuff [web spell]. You only have a moment to catch your breath and look around, not seeing anything else more, before you become aware that, not only has your lantern spilt flaming oil dangerously close to you, but the sticky stuff is apparently flammable. Very much so. As is rope, for that matter.

Take [roll0] (6d4: 13) damage.

Just to clarify, the paladin could have died because he had a flammable light source with him. A torch flying around is damn hazardous, very distracting, and there is no way you aren't taking penalties for it.

rayne_dragon
2011-04-27, 12:15 AM
I can see these sorts of things comming up in a number of games, just D&D is the one where such silliness is most prevailant (Ars Magica comes to mind with its "pink dot" nonsense, but it genrally encourages people to think more "realistically").

Usually I adopt "game reality" plus the rules of Drama and Cool.


1.In General, Do you give any Negative Effects for Character Actions?

Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.


Personally, I find my vision impaired by a hood no matter how thick the cloak. I don't give out penalties for this since characters wearing a cloak are more dramatic and cool looking and it would be a shame to penalize a player for trying to roleplay or just have fun.



Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth


Riiiight... I'd probably ask the player to hold a mouthfull of water in their mouth for as long as their character is doing that. Or just invent some odd effect for having such a delicate part of your body in contact with a magical liquid for so long. Maybe the potion takes 5 minutes to act or causes severe tooth decay.



Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep


Generally, I'll let characters rest at will, but not sleep. Effectively it would be the same. If I need them to not rest I'll send a random encounter after them or something to that effect, but I'm pretty leniant about the 15 minute adventuring day. I also generally ignore things like challenge rating whenever I feel like it, so it works out.



ExampleA character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipment


I don't think I've ever had a DM/GM who doesn't have items break sometimes, especially in cases like this. If you wear something fragile, it's going to break when you get hit. Plus if those potion bottles are full... I'm going to get out the old potion miscability table and have you roll some dice for fun. :smallbiggrin:



ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)
[/QUOTE]

Pants + Fire = bad (d6 fire damage a round) :smallbiggrin:
Dangling junk underfoot = rolling to keep balance

Mastikator
2011-04-27, 03:17 AM
1,
a) Yes. I'd deny the character a spot check unless it's within his limited line of sight. Also the hood gives a minor penalty to listen if it covers the ears.
b) The potion blocks a verbal component, either it's dropped to the ground upon casting or the casting fizzles. If I'm feeling generous I'd allow a concentration check, which if failed both negative consequences occur and if succeeded; neither.
c) No. But you can rest for 8 hours at will. However, this'll give the enemy plenty of time to organize and mobilize.
Ohhoohh, if a player ever tries to pull this on me I'll make him regret it so bad.
d) Yes it is fair. The armor and whatever's on the armor takes the same amount of damage as you do.
Also, if you get soaked all your magic scrolls, magic books, anything paper, is destroyed.
e) Actually this is a good idea on the part of the player. But it depends on the length of the rope and how you move, and there's also a chance it'll trip the enemy.

MachineWraith
2011-04-27, 03:47 AM
I may be making a grievous error, but it's late and I'm tired, so I'm not going to read the entire thread.

As far as I'm concerned, if the player doesn't ask for special, outside-the-rules bonuses, I won't give them penalties either. For instance, in the first example, as long as the player is only wearing the cloak for aesthetics or style, I won't penalize or reward the wearing of the cloak. If the player starts asking for bonuses from the wearing of the cloak ("Bonus to disguise because it's harder to see my face?"), then I'll start factoring in other things like obstructing vision etc.

In the "wearing my potions like a Christmas tree wears ornaments" example, if the player is just being a goofball, then no bonuses or penalties. If the player is wearing them to make it so that they don't have to spend actions to get them out, then the potions are at risk.

Basically, if you wanna try to scam me for bonuses that aren't in the rules? Fine. But don't complain if the consequences bite you in the rear later.

Odin the Ignoble
2011-04-27, 04:09 AM
I play Hero system, so allot of these aren't applicable.

But generally, realism trumps fantasy. I like my stories to make sense, eve if there are fantastic elements included.

Kurald Galain
2011-04-27, 04:38 AM
1.In General, Do you give any Negative Effects for Character Actions?
Yes. Actions have consequences.


Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.
No, because I'd assume that he wears his clothing in such a way that it doesn't hamper him.



Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth
I'd veto the speech and spellcasting, and would require frequent concentration checks to avoid swallowing the potion. Also, any player who keeps doing ridiculous things like this (except in Paranoia) has a good chance of being booted from the group.



Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep
You can rest as much as you like, but I'd rule that you can replenish spell slots only once per day. Regardless, this is treating symptoms: if characters really use a 15-minute work day, then the campaign needs to give them a reason to hurry up. Thankfully I've never had players abuse this.



ExampleA character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipment
I'd say that's equally ridiculous as the earlier potion example.


ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)
Marginally less ridiculous, but I'd rule that the torch goes out and/or give a penalty to running and jumping checks.

stainboy
2011-04-27, 06:16 AM
Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.


No, no rules for that. I'd like players to be free to describe how their characters look without worrying about hidden mechanical penalties. (I've never pushed through a "head shot" penalty for not drawing a helmet in your character portrait either.)



Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth


Doesn't work. If you put the liquid in your mouth you've performed the Drink a Potion action and the potion activates. Warforged can drink potions. The act of consuming the potion is what matters, not the potion entering your digestive tract.

Potions are magic so there's no appeal to realism here. Even if I walked into the player's realism trap I could point to real world drugs being absorbed through the gums, or saliva breaking down carbohydrates into glucose.

If the player needed to hold liquid in his mouth for some other reason I'd make him spit it out to talk or cast.



Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep


Yes, but it's sort of a house rule. You "rest" rather than sleep to prepare spells even if you have a biological need to sleep. (The actual rules are ridiculous. I've spent a lot of time sleeping outside in a semi-hostile environment and 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep does not happen.)



ExampleA character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipment


I already harshed on you for this in the other thread, no need to repeat.



ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)

Monsters can grab it, that is in the rules.

I'd probably have the torch make saves not to go out, because torches are a handheld item and having a handheld item work when it's not in your hand is a bad precedent. If the players need a free hand they can use Light spells or sunrods. Honestly if the PCs use torches at all something has gone terribly wrong.

obliged_salmon
2011-04-27, 08:01 AM
1. Cloak. I think quilted armor headgear causes +1ob to perception tests, but I could be wrong.

2. Mouth potions. There are no magic potions in Burning Wheel. If I were running DnD and this came up, I would appeal to common sense at the table, and hope that the other players agreed with me that such a rules exploit is inappropriate for the kind of game we're trying to play.

3. Sleep at will. Sleeping confers no particular benefit in Burning Wheel. I would, however, give players chances to push on without rest at penalty, in order to pursue time sensitive beliefs.

4. Exterior breakables. Again, no potions. However, if the character were carrying something breakable and important, I would certainly consider the item breaking as a failure consequence for certain kinds of tests (climbing, speed, weapon).

5. Torch rope. This is a good question. If you have a shield in one hand, sword in the other, where does the torch go? I would allow the player to tell me how he deals with his light source in such a situation, and use loss of light as an appropriate failure consequence. Attempting to tie the torch to a rope would not obviate this possibility.

Lord Vampyre
2011-04-27, 03:52 PM
Except sneaking up from directly behind a guy doesn't give a bonus either, nor does walking right in front of them give a penalty. Hence why it makes sense if you use facing, but not in a game that doesn't. And honestly, don't. Those rules are terrible, even if they do add realism to the game.

And even in real life, it'll only give you movement, but honestly most times where you roll checks for this, they aren't moving.

Most of the checks I'm worried about for the player involve some sort of movement, ie their being ambushed. But, as I've said before I tend to ignore the possible penalties in favor of the flavor of the game.




Light them on fire (which doesn't phase most D&D players), yes, but unless they went with a 5 foot rope so they could swing it around, it shouldn't even fall to their knees. If you tie gear so you can use it, and not drop it, it should fall to approximately your hips, and involve mostly rope around your chest and shoulder.

That and I have gotten into sparring matches where I had something stuck around my knees. If you're jogging around like some kind of twit, you have bigger problems than a dangling obstruction between your knees.

I can see getting lit on fire not phasing a character that has fire resistance; but for everyone else taking constant damage from a torch can seriously ruin your day. Now, if your playing in the higher levels then you probably do have something that gives fire resistance.

I won't argue with you about having something dangling around your knees. We have obviously had very different experiences when sparring and fencing. Suffice it to say, as the DM I'll simply call it as I see them.

JonestheSpy
2011-04-27, 04:04 PM
A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth

I'd make them LARP it.



Wins the thread.

No brains
2011-04-27, 04:33 PM
Why am I seeing the "Well I don't play D&D" argument on the D20/3.5 forum?

The only thing here that seems ridiculous but I contest may not acutally be so is the christmas tree potion experiment. What makes a leather bag a more protective environment for glass bottles? They'll still need to retrieve it with a move action as they look down and identify what they are grabbing, but unless I specifically play it that an enemy is out to destroy the player's consumables, how they store it is irrelevant. We waste time on that crap that could be spent vivsecting Neogi.

randomhero00
2011-04-27, 04:38 PM
If someone bumps into you, you backslap them. "I'm keepin real biatch!"

Jolly
2011-04-27, 05:02 PM
I'm desperately resisting the urge to post the "When keeping it real goes wrong" videos. I better get offline before I fail a Will save...

Yukitsu
2011-04-27, 05:25 PM
Most of the checks I'm worried about for the player involve some sort of movement, ie their being ambushed. But, as I've said before I tend to ignore the possible penalties in favor of the flavor of the game.

During the movement part of the ambush, the ambusher doesn't get a hide check at all. It's while he's laying in wait that he gets checks.


I can see getting lit on fire not phasing a character that has fire resistance; but for everyone else taking constant damage from a torch can seriously ruin your day. Now, if your playing in the higher levels then you probably do have something that gives fire resistance.

Fire is a pretty common one. I generally try to have fire res 5 by level 5 or so, simply because my DM actually tracks environmental combustion, and I happen to use alchemists fire early levels because they are great for saving spell slots.


I won't argue with you about having something dangling around your knees. We have obviously had very different experiences when sparring and fencing. Suffice it to say, as the DM I'll simply call it as I see them.

The problem is you seem to be assuming the best way to tie this is one end tied to wrist, one end tied to bottom of torch. If that's the case, Darwin award away, but if I were to use anything on a drop away rope, it'll be on a loose figure 8 bandolier, so anything I drop goes to my hip. Which coincidently lights me on fire, but it will be out of my way (and I can use a real life set of knots along the torch so it isn't likely to even do that). Basically, if it's how special forces tie a shot gun to their chest while they use their primary weapon, you're doing it right.

That and with the exception of very few specific block-counter techniques, the only real chance of a slightly dangling obstruction actually tripping you is when your legs cross in a narrow stance, which generally doesn't happen in European style sword duels. The only way I can see this being any problem is if you're charging with it, doing some fancy unarmoured style with dodges, or are so stupid, that the torch drops all the way to the ground when you drop it, and drags along going everywhere with 4 or more feet of lose rope flipping around.

Ultimately, I think my biggest problem is I can, by both the rules and realism accomplish all of the end results that the player wants to accomplish, so all your "realism" has accomplished is reward system mastery over someone who doesn't know what a quick cap is for instance, or who doesn't know about haversacks, or that you don't ever have to actually sleep to gain the benefits commonly associated with sleep, or that lighting yourself on fire in D&D is often beneficial.

Randomatic
2011-04-27, 06:01 PM
Why am I seeing the "Well I don't play D&D" argument on the D20/3.5 forum?

This is actually on the general Roleplaying Games forum, so it's forum appropriate.

Bang!
2011-04-27, 06:49 PM
Why am I seeing the "Well I don't play D&D" argument on the D20/3.5 forum?One of the premises of the thread starts:
No matter what game system you use, ...In many games, the rules don't pretend to model everything. They have such large gaps not covered by rules that commonsense real-world limitations are expected.

In games without strong tactical combat elements, there is no reason to use rules above common sense. In wargame-modeled rpgs, there becomes a reason to prioritize rules (players are competing against one another), so the OP's question becomes meaningful.

Jay R
2011-04-27, 07:14 PM
If a player started to get that silly, I would do one of three things.

1. Get just as silly in return every time.

"I hold a potion in my mouth so I can swallow at any time."
"Does your character class explicitly have a 'Hold Liquid in Mouth" skill?"

2. Make a ruling that prevents it.

"The potion takes effect as soon as it's in your mouth."
or
"A healing potion loses effect if exposed to saliva for more than three minutes before being swallowed."

3. Just Say No.

"That's not fantasy simulation, and it's not reasonable. Play the game."

In fact, while tempted by the first two, I would actually employ the third.

Lord Vampyre
2011-04-27, 07:50 PM
During the movement part of the ambush, the ambusher doesn't get a hide check at all. It's while he's laying in wait that he gets checks.

Since the DC of the spot check is based off the ambushers hide check. I normally justify the roll based on the ambusher not being able to remain completely still, or any number of other factors. But this really is a stupid argument, since I stated in my first post that I don't hinder the players for their character's appearance.


Fire is a pretty common one. I generally try to have fire res 5 by level 5 or so, simply because my DM actually tracks environmental combustion, and I happen to use alchemists fire early levels because they are great for saving spell slots.

By 5th level you should have a continual light source that won't catch you on fire. Besides eventhough you are now fire proof, your gear still isn't.


The problem is you seem to be assuming the best way to tie this is one end tied to wrist, one end tied to bottom of torch. If that's the case, Darwin award away, but if I were to use anything on a drop away rope, it'll be on a loose figure 8 bandolier, so anything I drop goes to my hip. Which coincidently lights me on fire, but it will be out of my way (and I can use a real life set of knots along the torch so it isn't likely to even do that). Basically, if it's how special forces tie a shot gun to their chest while they use their primary weapon, you're doing it right.

Yes, I reward players for making the whole affair believable. If I can't picture what they are doing then it doesnt' work. Also, to perform such an action, as you describe, I would require the character to have at least 4 ranks in Use Rope. Not everyone is going to be able to create those knots.


That and with the exception of very few specific block-counter techniques, the only real chance of a slightly dangling obstruction actually tripping you is when your legs cross in a narrow stance, which generally doesn't happen in European style sword duels. The only way I can see this being any problem is if you're charging with it, doing some fancy unarmoured style with dodges, or are so stupid, that the torch drops all the way to the ground when you drop it, and drags along going everywhere with 4 or more feet of lose rope flipping around.

Charging happens to be a very common tactic for melee characters; as is Spring Attack, Pouncing, and a variety of other movement oriented attacks. If your playing a 2H or Sword and Board Fighter, then fine you don't need to move. I just hope the threat doesn't require you to run away.

Yukitsu
2011-04-27, 11:33 PM
My general problem with the above, is that there ultimately is a way to manage all of the things the player is trying to do, and the DM is trying to nitpick it away. Either explain the mechanics of how to do it "realistically" or just let them do it and imagine that's how they must be doing it anyway.

Well, that and fire only harms items on a person on a critically failed save. If you lose gear every time you took damage, you'd have a player riot.

That and if you're running away or fighting asymetrically, you're best off dropping something and picking up the slack remaining. The torch near the enemy's feet when spring attacking, and your off hand's gear when running away.

Jolly
2011-04-28, 01:03 AM
Yukitsu: any time someone cites "the way Special Forces" do X as justification for something, that's pretty much prima facie evidence for dismissing their argument as baseless. Esp. when they are referring to something that actual people in the actual special operations communities do not, generally speaking, actually do. Having worked both in the military (not in special forces, I add. Just a normal grunt) and in a gun store (the universe's central point of "But that's how the SEELS do it so it much be great! I know, I read it in Soldier of Fortune and saw it in a video game I play used to be one!" arguments) I have to call you out on that one.

stainboy
2011-04-28, 06:26 AM
Having worked both in the military (not in special forces, I add. Just a normal grunt) and in a gun store (the universe's central point of "But that's how the SEELS do it so it much be great! I know, I read it in Soldier of Fortune and saw it in a video game I play used to be one!" arguments) I have to call you out on that one.

If I had been drinking milk when I read this, it would have come out my nose.




By 5th level you should have a continual light source that won't catch you on fire. Besides eventhough you are now fire proof, your gear still isn't.


I do agree that the torch on a rope is stupid, but there are better ways to shut it down.

Why are we back to punishing players by breaking gear again? Think about how often D&D PCs get set on fire, and what the rules would look like if every fireball destroyed tens of thousands of GP worth of gear. Either the game wouldn't bother including magic items at all, or creating a Cloak of Resistance would take five minutes and cost no money, or there would be an instantaneous spell called Wall of Gold that you'd use to buy new gear after every fight.

Weasel of Doom
2011-04-28, 07:30 AM
Generally the games I play exist in a world that resembles reality where it is not covered by the rules. That said, some exceptions will be made where it improves the story (most aesthetic choices don't carry positive or negative effects and the pcs are able to do far more than a "realistic" individual)

As far as your examples go I'd probably go with common sense or realism; potions strapped to you armour can shatter, potions in your mouth will get in your way. I don't think the penalties of the hood or the torch are going to be worth bothering with in most cases.

Yukitsu
2011-04-28, 09:16 AM
Yukitsu: any time someone cites "the way Special Forces" do X as justification for something, that's pretty much prima facie evidence for dismissing their argument as baseless. Esp. when they are referring to something that actual people in the actual special operations communities do not, generally speaking, actually do. Having worked both in the military (not in special forces, I add. Just a normal grunt) and in a gun store (the universe's central point of "But that's how the SEELS do it so it much be great! I know, I read it in Soldier of Fortune and saw it in a video game I play used to be one!" arguments) I have to call you out on that one.

Actually, I got it from the documentary "secrets of the SAS", so you can take your criticism of fictional reference elsewhere. Second, standard military don't require quick access to a shotgun, sub-machine gun, flashbang and pistol (or any other context specific weapon) all at the same time, or if they do, they can afford to holster or pack away their prior gun as they do so. More often, standard military each have seperate specialized weapons, and so would simply switch roles. (for instance, a grenadier would swap out with a rifleman, as opposed to switching to a longer range gun.)

The only difference is, they don't need a second loop because when they tie a secondary firearm in a baldric, they use bungie cord. Technically, you don't need to when using silk baldrics either, but I find a second loop more comfortable when attaching my trumpet to it.

Actually, I'm going to guess you people don't know how to improvise a baldric or sam belt at all here, given how much trouble this sort of concept seems to give you.

Jay R
2011-04-28, 11:35 AM
Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.

A hood's obstruction is fairly easily worked around. The only penalty I'd give would be that it becomes easier to sneak up on him, by deliberately staying in the hood's shadow. No hearing penalty, unless the cloak is thick enough to act as armor.


Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth

No - this is absurd. Athletes don't play with a swallow of Gator-Ade in their mouth.


Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep

Sleeping for 23 hours a day? I can't think of a better way to say, "This place needs more wandering monsters" without a neon sign.

Once, for a reasonable reason, I might allow it. If in the morning she finds out there's a werewolf in town, she'll want to rest all day to be ready to fight all night. No problem. But she can only have her daily allotment of spells once per day.

She can certainly rest quietly, but she can't memorize spells 8 hours after the last time.


ExampleA character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipment

Somebody needs to invest in some metal potion bottles.

This is the second most common absurdity, after what goes in a backpack. I don't make equipment as breakable as it would be in real life, but, yes, it can break. My rule of thumb is that if it's packed away, it's surrounded by padding, but if you make it easily accessible to your hand, it is also accessible to the hands and weapons of others, and to the ground you fall on. Carry it in your mouth like you're supposed to.


ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)

The first time he suggests it, ask "Are you going to practice fighting that way, or will the first time you do it be in combat?" He has every right to try it and find out what happens. (Of course, if he springs it on me in combat, I can't give him this option.)

How long is the rope? The item is now either on the ground or against his body. If it's against his body, and not a danger, it is a distraction in combat, but not a severe one. -1 to attacks, probably, for the first couple of battles, then you ignore it. SCA spearmen often have a mace dangling from their wrist, in case somebody gets inside the spear's range. It's easy to get used to. A torch, of course, is a danger. Maybe 1 hit point every other round, and a major distraction, -10 or more. If it's on the ground, he's fine until he moves, when he has a chance of entanglement.

The basic rule of thumb is this: if it's ridiculous, just say no. If it seems plausible, try to be reasonable, and to give them knowledge of what penalties it will have.

randomhero00
2011-04-28, 11:59 AM
I'm desperately resisting the urge to post the "When keeping it real goes wrong" videos. I better get offline before I fail a Will save...

OMG I know. I was just thinking the same...

"Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision." Probably not. You don't walk like that unless you can traverse like that.

"Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth"
No way. Absurd. Not only that but you'd slowly absorb the potion anyway through the mouth after like an hour. Not to mention you *have* to swallow sometimes.

Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep
Makes no sense. Just play by what should be obvious.

ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)
They'd burn themselves when they dropped it.

Jolly
2011-04-28, 12:12 PM
OMG you watched a program purporting to show the "secrets" of a highly publicized branch of the spec ops community?!?! I bow before your vast knowledge, I'm sure that bit of entertainment fluff hard hitting documentary was full of accurate and up to date information, with no sensationalization or misinformation at all. Thank you for filling me in on how proper military operations are different from special forces in a combat zone too, my piddly time in Iraq can't compare to the vast insight you've gathered through watching teevee and playing video games much careful research.

Lord Vampyre
2011-04-28, 12:13 PM
Why are we back to punishing players by breaking gear again? Think about how often D&D PCs get set on fire, and what the rules would look like if every fireball destroyed tens of thousands of GP worth of gear. Either the game wouldn't bother including magic items at all, or creating a Cloak of Resistance would take five minutes and cost no money, or there would be an instantaneous spell called Wall of Gold that you'd use to buy new gear after every fight.

I generally reserve this for players who insist that it is a great idea. This really isn't an issue for my games, as there is normally a wizard who will cast light for everyone else to see by.

randomhero00
2011-04-28, 12:19 PM
OMG you watched a program purporting to show the "secrets" of a highly publicized branch of the spec ops community?!?! I bow before your vast knowledge, I'm sure that bit of entertainment fluff hard hitting documentary was full of accurate and up to date information, with no sensationalization or misinformation at all. Thank you for filling me in on how proper military operations are different from special forces in a combat zone too, my piddly time in Iraq can't compare to the vast insight you've gathered through watching teevee and playing video games much careful research.

I think its sarcasm. Although realism has no place in fantasy. So not sure what he's getting at.

Yukitsu
2011-04-28, 12:34 PM
I think its sarcasm. Although realism has no place in fantasy. So not sure what he's getting at.

It's not sarcasm. I just happen to know a US army fireteam uses 3 assault rifles and a SAW, and generally don't rely on their pistols. They don't have context specific weapons that rely on rapidly moving between a sub-machine gun, a shotgun or other appropriate door breaching weapon, to a pistol and back again, since they aren't generally sent to deal with hostage situations or other special operations that are reserved for specialists. Special services by contrast are sent on context sensitive missions, and have to have more specialized gear, often meaning they need more of it to cover gaps in their arsenal.

If you're going to argue that in an urban assault scenario, where the individuals have to be armed with a wider variety of context specific tools don't use measures to ensure they can rapidly deploy or drop those without hampering themselves, be my guest. I do wonder what you happen to think they do instead. Especially since a satchel style belt around the shoulder has been used by soldiers for the purpose since Roman times.

Sebastrd
2011-04-28, 12:42 PM
Actually, I got it from the documentary "secrets of the SAS"...

...which is the definitive authority on the subject. :smallamused:

Military personnel use slings this way so that they don't have to hold a 15 lb. weapon constantly. The sling is situated in such a way that when the weapon is needed, it is already properly posistioned for shooting with minimal movement. In my experience it has nothing to do with multiple weapons. I also wouldn't expect anyone to properly sling anything that precisely with hemp rope.

Yukitsu
2011-04-28, 01:42 PM
...which is the definitive authority on the subject. :smallamused:

If you wanna argue that they are being somehow dishonest about tying knots, go ahead. The larger scope of things perhaps, but that seems like an inane thing to attempt to dismiss, especially since you can go try it yourself.

I could probably find a Navy Seals field manual on wikileaks, but I'm guessing you be like "pshaaa, like the Navy seals are a legitimate source."


Military personnel use slings this way so that they don't have to hold a 15 lb. weapon constantly. The sling is situated in such a way that when the weapon is needed, it is already properly posistioned for shooting with minimal movement. In my experience it has nothing to do with multiple weapons. I also wouldn't expect anyone to properly sling anything that precisely with hemp rope.

It was actually originally used on horns for the purpose, or instead of a typical belt scabbard. The signal officer could drop the horn and fight with a weapon. They weren't 15 pound weapons and wouldn't require a dedicated support like a lance, and a Sam belt is used most commonly for pistols, not heavier assault rifles. I haven't seen any evidence that this kind of belt was support, as opposed to a variant of a bandoleer.

And really, go put on a satchel. Weigh it, see if it weighs the 1 pound a torch does. If it's more, even more to the theory, if it's less add a little weight. See if you can both access it, drop it, and then move freely while it's to your side. This isn't precisely a difficult process here people, people use ropes so they can hold on to something, drop it, and have it relatively out of their way all the time.

Conners
2011-04-29, 02:56 AM
Wait... they carry three assault rifles EACH O.o...? These days, I figure you could just have a gun that swaps fire-types with multiple scopes.

Sebastrd
2011-04-29, 11:47 AM
Wait... they carry three assault rifles EACH O.o...? These days, I figure you could just have a gun that swaps fire-types with multiple scopes.

No way. Every grunt is running around with an arsenal of weapons Doom-style, properly slung with a complex series of ropes and Sam belts to have every weapon available at a moment's notice. And everyone has a horn, too. Because even in our technologically advanced society, nothing beats announcing your allies position with a blast from a horn.

When I went though combat readiness training the standard loadout was M-9 pistol, M16A2 rifle or M4 carbine, M870 shotgun, M203 grenade launcher, M136 AT4 rocket launcher, M777 light howitzer, half a dozen M18A1 claymore mines, a Ka-bar, a tazer, a horn, a couple of torches, and some McDonald's french fries. One full week of training was taken up learning how to properly sling it all, and our final exam consisted of using all of that firepower to single-handedly wipe out a remote village full of civilia...I mean TERRORISTS in some southwest-asian country. I didn't realize going in that the french fries were supposed to be celebratory (instead of a cigar, because the military frowns on smoking now), so I got docked a few points for putting one through the eye of an elderly civilia...I mean TERRORIST and gloating over his corpse. I was all like, "You lovin' it NOW, old man?!" My instructor kind of shook his head and told me to go see the chaplain.

Yukitsu
2011-04-29, 01:31 PM
Wait... they carry three assault rifles EACH O.o...? These days, I figure you could just have a gun that swaps fire-types with multiple scopes.

What? No, the three M-16s plus the light machine gun are spread across 4 people. Each one is specced differently, so if you want to hit a far target, only one guy has the long distance scope, if you want to use a grenade at a distance, only one guy has the grenade launcher etc.

Sebastrd
2011-04-29, 01:44 PM
What? No, the three M-16s plus the light machine gun are spread across 4 people. Each one is specced differently, so if you want to hit a far target, only one guy has the long distance scope, if you want to use a grenade at a distance, only one guy has the grenade launcher etc.

No way, dude. The military is all about " do more with less" these days, and the "less" is always people. Haven't you seen all those "Army of One" commercials?

Vladislav
2011-04-29, 03:53 PM
Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.

No, because it's too bothersome. Besides, mysterious cloaked figures are a staple of fantasy, so I see nothing wrong here.


Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth

I point him to the SRD.

Drinking a potion or using an oil on an item of gear is a standard action.He gets a cookie for being creative, but no cigar. The SRD doesn't specify where is the potion coming from. It can come from your mouth, whatever. It's still a standard action to fully gulp it down




Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleepYes, but a monster can arrive and eat him in his sleep.


ExampleA character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipmentThere are also no rules for tying 35 glass bottles to your armor. He does something not covered by the rules, I do something not covered by the rules. If he jumps off a cliff, they break.


ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)
Again, two can play the "it's not in the rules" game. If the torch is still tied to your hand, there is no rule saying it left your hand. It still counts as an item in their hand and takes up the use of a hand. They can't swing a sword efficiently with the torch tied like that.

Knaight
2011-05-01, 02:48 AM
Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.No, its really not worth it. Now, if a character is dumb enough to wear a fur lined coat in the desert at day they might be at a bit of a penalty to deal with the heat, but outside of extreme temperature situations and social situations clothing needs no mechanical effect.


Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth
Yeah, no. There is no talking, and while walking is feasible that is about it for movement. Though potions are extremely rare in most settings I GM.


Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleepThis is D&D specific, and resting is just fine. Besides, if there is more to the game than dungeon crawling this doesn't really work even in D&D.


ExampleA character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipment
Glass potion bottles? Any potion meant for combat isn't going in a glass bottle, and the aesthetic of bronze vials with expensive wood stoppers is just too good not to use.


ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)
Flames burn upwards*. Their hand is now directly over the burning torch, which is probably going to spread up the torch faster as well. This can't end well.

*Though if you look at fires in low gravity situations, or in free fall where the local atmosphere is also in free fall it gets a little more interesting.


When I went though combat readiness training the standard loadout was M-9 pistol, M16A2 rifle or M4 carbine, M870 shotgun, M203 grenade launcher, M136 AT4 rocket launcher, M777 light howitzer, half a dozen M18A1 claymore mines, a Ka-bar, a tazer, a horn, a couple of torches, and some McDonald's french fries. One full week of training was taken up learning how to properly sling it all, and our final exam consisted of using all of that firepower to single-handedly wipe out a remote village full of civilia...I mean TERRORISTS in some southwest-asian country. I didn't realize going in that the french fries were supposed to be celebratory (instead of a cigar, because the military frowns on smoking now), so I got docked a few points for putting one through the eye of an elderly civilia...I mean TERRORIST and gloating over his corpse. I was all like, "You lovin' it NOW, old man?!" My instructor kind of shook his head and told me to go see the chaplain.
Huh. They removed the motorcycle and 4 meter cattle prod. There goes the jousting.

comicshorse
2011-05-01, 01:04 PM
My general problem with the above, is that there ultimately is a way to manage all of the things the player is trying to do, and the DM is trying to nitpick it away. Either explain the mechanics of how to do it "realistically" or just let them do it and imagine that's how they must be doing it anyway.



That's kinda the point, if the players take the time to think of a way to accomplish the task using their brains and thinking creatively thats great ( I particularly liked the hollow tooth containing the healing potion idea) if they just ask to do something obviously stupid because 'there's no rule against it' then you don't allow it.

And I remain completely unconvinced that without fire resistance having a burning torch banging into your hip isn't going to bother you.

Yukitsu
2011-05-01, 01:16 PM
That's kinda the point, if the players take the time to think of a way to accomplish the task using their brains and thinking creatively thats great ( I particularly liked the hollow tooth containing the healing potion idea) if they just ask to do something obviously stupid because 'there's no rule against it' then you don't allow it.

And I remain completely unconvinced that without fire resistance having a burning torch banging into your hip isn't going to bother you.

Well, the problem is, you're now rewarding system mastery. I don't think the players should have to wade through umpteen splat books, IRL field manuals, historic texts and other things I happen to like doing, just to do something trivial. Certain RPGs requiring a high degree of "skill" and knowledge on the player's part to do fun or interesting things is generally considered a negative thing.

On the issue of a fire, on the long term it would certainly hurt you, but really when you've got like, 50 hit points and are taking 3-4 on average a round, it's better than trying to 1 hand a weapon during combat.

Conners
2011-05-01, 01:21 PM
You don't need to study much to realize that wearing something which is on fire is a bad idea...

In DnD, of course, it doesn't bother you much--providing you killed something worth enough XP.

comicshorse
2011-05-01, 01:22 PM
Well, the problem is, you're now rewarding system mastery. I don't think the players should have to wade through umpteen splat books, IRL field manuals, historic texts and other things I happen to like doing, just to do something trivial. Certain RPGs requiring a high degree of "skill" and knowledge on the player's part to do fun or interesting things is generally considered a negative thing.



Well no I don't really think it does. There's nothing in any game book about the hollow tooth (as far as I know) its just an idea the guy had by thinking about the problem.

Yukitsu
2011-05-01, 01:33 PM
Well no I don't really think it does. There's nothing in any game book about the hollow tooth (as far as I know) its just an idea the guy had by thinking about the problem.

Complete adventurer, page 120.

No brains
2011-05-01, 02:43 PM
On the subject of splats helping players do something interesting or fun, I always wanted to get a hold of a really fresh group and have them start off in core, and as they need techniques to overcome challenges, they would research and 'discover' the contents of a new book.

comicshorse
2011-05-01, 05:26 PM
Complete adventurer, page 120.

Ok I bow before your knowledge on that
I'd just say that its possible the guy who thought of it might have got the idea without reading Complete Adventurer. I've used a similair idea in a Cyberpunk game myself, long before the Complete Adventurer was published, having got the idea it from the novel the ' The Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World'

P.S It was Frozen Feet who suggested the hollow teeth idea, who I promise to stop calling 'the guy who' from now on

Warlawk
2011-05-01, 11:29 PM
No matter what game system you use, the rule books only cover a tiny bit of stuff, even if they are 1,000 pages long. This can leave a lot for a GM to cover. A basic problem is Game Reality vs Game Fantasy.

Game Reality--The 'game' exists in a fictional world almost exactly like Earth and for the most part everything we know about common reality is also true in the game world. For example, wood burns in a fire, glass is weak and fragile, water flows downhill, and so forth. None of this is stated anywhere in the rules of the game, but it's all common sense.

Game Fantasy--Nothing is real. It's all a game. Nothing matters and anything can be anything. If the game does not have a rule for it, then it does not exist in the game world. A person in the game world is free to do anything not covered by the rules with no bad effects and rejects if the GM attempts to use common sense and will say that is not part of the rules. For example, you can burn dirt in a fire, glass is indestructible, water flows up hill and so forth.

Special NoteWe are not talking about where a GM makes a special world with all special rules, but a more common default campaign setting that is almost just like Earth.


So, in a typical common default campaign setting that is almost just like Earth, how do you handle player actions, especially the loopy 'It's not real' players, such as:


1.In General, Do you give any Negative Effects for Character Actions?

Example:The character wears a thick and heavy cloak and hood at all times, would you give them a penalty to sight and hearing and vision.

Example:A character wants to walk around for hours with a potion of healing poured into his mouth, ready to drink if he gets hurt..and they can still talk and cast spells normally(the rules don't say you can't cast spells with a potion in your mouth

Example:Can a character sleep at will? Such as for the 15 minuet day cheat. Fight for 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours, fight 15 minuets, sleep 8 hours(the rules don't say a person has to be awake for any set amount of time before going to sleep

ExampleA character ties 35 glass potion bottles to his scale mail armor and then expects them to never break even if he falls off a 50 foot cliff or is hit with a thrown boulder.(There are not rules for that and it's not fair if you break my equipment

ExampleThe character carries a non-combat item, like a torch, in their hand and tied to a rope. When a fight happens, they drop the item and the rope keeps it with them.(My torch on a rope never trips me and monsters can't grab it as that is not in the rules)

Pretty much every example listed would be met at our table with the following response.

http://www.memeticians.com/2008/05/23/1454018245_5986b5e6c1.jpg

We tend toward relatively realistic. I mean it's a fantasy setting, but most of the things you listed are just trying to game the system, and that doesn't fly.

As for the cloak in the first example, it would probably net you a very minor penalty for spot/listen checks that were not directly in front of you, but generally on things like that we tend to let it slide on one condition. As long as you aren't trying to gain any mechanical effect, it's ok. If you just want specific "flavor text" so to speak with no mechanics for it, you can describe things mostly how you want as long as they aren't too ridiculous.



Re: Anybody using the torch on a rope thing: That's a noob move. Cast Continual Light on a coin, drill a hole in the coin, run a strip of leather through the hole, tie it around your neck.

I'm a fan of continual light on a coin in the bottom of a scroll case to make a flash light. Also taking something like a metal wallet or cigarette style case on a headband with a continual light inside it (or attached to your helmet) so you have a headlight that can can close to shut off the light. Similarly you can put one on the chest of your armor with a lid that can latch closed. Works great.

Jolly
2011-05-02, 06:11 PM
Yukitsu: you are missing the point. Saying "Thing X is true cause I saw some dude on a teevee show about special forces doin' it" is a flawed argument, and detracts from the validity of whatever you are saying. Totally aside from whatever point you were trying to make.

Now, as for the specific example you give, I have not seen elaborate knot work to "tie" a weapon onto one's person used. And shotguns are used for breaching almost exclusively in combat operations by the infantry these days.

All that aside, I was merely observing that using the argument that "Spec Ops does it so it must be awesome!" is highly flawed, and frankly rather laughable.

Yukitsu
2011-05-02, 07:55 PM
Yukitsu: you are missing the point. Saying "Thing X is true cause I saw some dude on a teevee show about special forces doin' it" is a flawed argument, and detracts from the validity of whatever you are saying. Totally aside from whatever point you were trying to make.

Now, as for the specific example you give, I have not seen elaborate knot work to "tie" a weapon onto one's person used. And shotguns are used for breaching almost exclusively in combat operations by the infantry these days.

All that aside, I was merely observing that using the argument that "Spec Ops does it so it must be awesome!" is highly flawed, and frankly rather laughable.

I'm banging my head on a wall here, because yes, that's why you need to reach the shotgun, but swap it quickly for any other weapon. If they could blow open the door with a shotgun, and then get in an effective fight with someone, often near something they want to secure relatively intact, then there'd be no reason to do it, but since they don't want to be firing into a room full of possibly armoured people with those powdery door breaching rounds, I very much doubt they do.

And I don't care if it's awesome or not (it's actually as dull as digging a trench), I'm saying people who are not morons can tie off gear so it can be used and dropped without getting in your way. I'm mentioning special operations, because they don't use the M16 spam that standard infantry do. People here seem to think you take a 6 foot rope, and tie one end to your pinky finger and the other end to the bottom of the torch or something inane like that.

Jolly
2011-05-02, 09:21 PM
/frustrated sigh

You know what, you take your vast expertise garnered from teevee and internet and keep preaching to people. I'm done with you.

Yukitsu
2011-05-02, 09:53 PM
Then try a US infantry field manual. Except they use 3 point slings, and I don't know how to tie one of those. Nor the one point, only learned the 2 point.