[3.5] Combat system

[dndnewbie]

I'm trying to understand the D&D 3.5 combat system and to do that I'm calculating the average damage for different combat styles. The character in this example will be a pure ranger (multiclassing isn't allowed).

Class: Ranger
Size: Medium
Level: 6
Strength: 14 (+2)
BAB: +6/+1
Weapons:
- Shortsword, 1d6, 19-20/x2, piercing, light (Average damage: 3.5)
- Longsword, 1d8, 19-20/x2, slashing (Average damage: 4.5)
- Greatsword, 2d6, 19-20/x2, slashing, two handed (Average damage: 7)

When wielding two weapons, offhand strength multiplier is 0,5x (+1).
When wielding a two handed weapon, strength multiplier is 1,5x (+3).

Enemy: Not favored

Combat style #1 - Archery tree - Uses a longsword as a backup weapon - Feats: Power Attack
Attack 1 - Main hand - To-hit +8 (+6+2) - Average damage 6.5 (4.5+2)
Attack 2 - Main hand - To-hit +3 (+1+2) - Average damage 6.5 (4.5+2)
Total average damage: 13

With Power Attack; -2 on Attack 1, -1 on Attack 2
Attack 1 - Main hand - To-hit +6 (+6+2-2) - Average damage 8.5 (4.5+2+2)
Attack 2 - Main hand - To-hit +2 (+1+2-1) - Average damage 7.5 (4.5+2+1)
Total average damage: 16

Combat style #2 - TWF tree - Uses two shortswords - Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Attack 1 - Main hand - To-hit +6 (+6+2-2) - Average damage 5.5 (3.5+2)
Attack 2 - Main hand - To-hit +1 (+1+2-2) - Average damage 5.5 (3.5+2)
Attack 3 - Off-hand - To-hit +6 (+6+2-2) - Average damage 4.5 (3.5+1)
Attack 4 - Off-hand - To-hit +1 (+1+2-2) - Average damage 4.5 (3.5+1)
Total average damage: 19

Combat style #3 - Archery tree - Uses a greatsword as a backup weapon - Feats: Power Attack
Attack 1 - Main hand - To-hit +8 (+6+2) - Average damage: 10 (7+3)
Attack 2 - Main hand - To-hit +3 (+1+2) - Average damage: 10 (7+3)
Total average damage: 20

With Power Attack; -2 on Attack 1, -1 on Attack 2. Power Attack gives twice the amount of damage when wielding a two handed weapon.
Attack 1 - Main hand - To-hit +6 (+6+2-2) - Average damage: 14 (7+3+4)
Attack 2 - Main hand - To-hit +2 (+1+2-1) - Average damage: 12 (7+3+2)
Total average damage: 26



If these numbers are correct, I don't understand what is the point of getting TWF when you play as a pure ranger. Considering that the class only gets extra damage when you are facing a favored enemy, it needs different sources of damage to make these extra attacks useful, like flaming weapons.
Also, people say that Sword&Board sucks, but at the cost of an extra feat (Power Attack) a ranger can have better defense (Shield), get a decent amount of damage (16 vs 19) and be a better archer when necessary. The character can even pursue the TWF tree and use his shield as an offensive style. It doesn't seem that bad.

Based on this, my idea is that a 6th level ranger wielding a Greatsword, but specialized in archery, can be as good or better at melee combat than a 6th level TWF ranger wielding two Shortswords.

Are my assumptions wrong?

PS: I'm aware that I didn't include the odds to miss an attack, to land a critical hit or the AC of the enemy. I don't know how relevant they are for the calculations, but considering that the TWF receives penalties to-hit, it seems that the THF style is even better against enemies with higher defenses.

[Diarmuid]

It's a generally accepted idea that TWF is really only viable when there are additional per attack bonuses included in damage.

Favored enemy as you mentioned
Sneak Attack
Flaming/etc weapons
Other buffs

[Keld Denar]

Um...you can't set different values of Power Attack for different attacks in a round. You set ONE value of Power Attack, and ALL of your attacks that round follow that value. PAing with TWFing is generally not a good idea, as your mainhand gets 1:1, but your offhand gets 0 benefit because its often light. It still takes the penalty though. If you spend a feat on Oversized TWFing, of cource, then your offhand gets PA damage, but you are also spending a whole nother feat and feats are precious...

What are you trying to prove?

Also, having a Longsword as a back-up weapon to your bow is decent, but do note that you CAN 2hand your longsword to get 1.5x Str and 2:1 PA with it, if you want. You can always opt to use a 1handed weapon with both hands. You can't do that with light weapons though.

[dndnewbie]

Um...you can't set different values of Power Attack for different attacks in a round. You set ONE value of Power Attack, and ALL of your attacks that round follow that value.
As his BAB is +6/+1, I thought that I could remove -6 in the first attack and -1 in the second attack. If I choose "2" when using the power attack, will the BAB effectively become +4/-1? Is that really allowed, considering that the BAB of the second attack is lower than 2?

[Keld Denar]

Nope. Your BAB is +6, not +6/+1. The +1 just reminds you that you have a second attack there...but its really superfluous since the rules already state that you get it. The only number that matters for PA on any given attack is the first number. If your BAB is 11 (+11/+6/+1), you can PA for 11 on all 3 hits, for a totall attack bonus of +0/-5/-10 before Str and other mods.

[Cog]

There are two ways that I know of to pull off TWF as a ranger but only taking advantage of Power Attack, giving you twohanded benefits with both weapons. There's Revenant Blade, which depends on using the double scimitar and being an elf; there's also Dragonsplits combined with Exotic Weapon Master's uncanny blow.

[dndnewbie]

Nope. Your BAB is +6, not +6/+1. The +1 just reminds you that you have a second attack there...but its really superfluous since the rules already state that you get it. The only number that matters for PA on any given attack is the first number. If your BAB is 11 (+11/+6/+1), you can PA for 11 on all 3 hits, for a totall attack bonus of +0/-5/-10 before Str and other mods.
So this means that with Power Attack, I can increase the damage even further on the second attack with the Greatsword, at the cost of accuracy.

What is the point of getting TWF if a pure ranger can cause more damage with a Greatsword and Power Attack? Even when fighting a favored enemy, the extra source of damage for the off-hand doesn't seem that great.

Considering that the TWF tree gives the idea that the ranger will become an expert at fighting with two weapons and will cause much more damage (better accuracy and extra attacks), the benefits aren't that good when he can simply pick a greatsword off the floor and still do good damage.

[Cog]

What is the point of getting TWF if a pure ranger can cause more damage with a Greatsword and Power Attack? Even when fighting a favored enemy, the extra source of damage for the off-hand doesn't seem that great.
There's a reason PHB 1 is considered one of the most imbalanced books in 3.5. The writers just didn't understand how the math of the game worked out yet.

[NNescio]

So this means that with Power Attack, I can increase the damage even further on the second attack with the Greatsword, at the cost of accuracy.

What is the point of getting TWF if a pure ranger can cause more damage with a Greatsword and Power Attack? Even when fighting a favored enemy, the extra source of damage for the off-hand doesn't seem that great.

Considering that the TWF tree gives the idea that the ranger will become an expert at fighting with two weapons and will cause much more damage (better accuracy and extra attacks), the benefits aren't that good when he can simply pick a greatsword off the floor and still do good damage.

It can be worth it if you can stack extra sources of damage.


It's a generally accepted idea that TWF is really only viable when there are additional per attack bonuses included in damage.

Favored enemy as you mentioned
Sneak Attack
Flaming/etc weapons
Other buffs

A pure ranger can get SA with the spell Hunter's Eye.

[Keld Denar]

So this means that with Power Attack, I can increase the damage even further on the second attack with the Greatsword, at the cost of accuracy.
Not can...have to. If you PA for 4 points on your first attack, your second attack HAS to be a PA for 4, and all AoOs you make between that turn and your next are ALSO made with a PA of 4. You only set your PA amount once in a given round, prior to making any attacks. Once you set it, you can't change it until the start of your next turn.


What is the point of getting TWF if a pure ranger can cause more damage with a Greatsword and Power Attack? Even when fighting a favored enemy, the extra source of damage for the off-hand doesn't seem that great.

Considering that the TWF tree gives the idea that the ranger will become an expert at fighting with two weapons and will cause much more damage (better accuracy and extra attacks), the benefits aren't that good when he can simply pick a greatsword off the floor and still do good damage.

Yea...WotC sucks at game balance. TWF can work, but it takes a LOT of effort. You generally have to bite and scratch for a source of bonus damage. Rangers pretty notoriously lack that source, which is why a straight Ranger tends to be a weak choice. Swift Hunter (a feat from Complete Scoundrel that stacks Ranger + Scout levels for various attributes) is generally considered a late game fix for this, as it gives you a source of bonus damage (Skirmish) on top of the few toys that Ranger already gives (decent skills, bonus feats, full BAB, and some ok spells if you have Champions of Ruin and/or the Spell Compendium). Doesn't help you at all though, since you can't multiclass...

EDIT

A pure ranger can get SA with the spell Hunter's Eye.

Barely. You don't have many spell slots to really afford to cast this every round, and remember, Rangers only get 1/2 their level for their CL. That means that a level 12 Ranger has a CL of 6, and thus gets a whole whopping +2d6 SA damage. A level 18 Ranger has a CL of 9, and gets +3d6. Woo...

Even if you spend ANOTHER feat on Practiced Spellcaster, you still cap out at +5d6 SA at level 20. Hardly anything to write home about.

[NNescio]

...Barely. You don't have many spell slots to really afford to cast this every round, and remember, Rangers only get 1/2 their level for their CL. That means that a level 12 Ranger has a CL of 6, and thus gets a whole whopping +2d6 SA damage. A level 18 Ranger has a CL of 9, and gets +3d6. Woo...

Even if you spend ANOTHER feat on Practiced Spellcaster, you still cap out at +5d6 SA at level 20. Hardly anything to write home about.

*Shrugs* It is a start. Just pointing out that SA can be gotten on a ranger, 'though like most sources of extra damage (on a pure-ranger chassis), getting enough bonus damage dice to make TWF worthwhile is exceedingly hard.

Unless the party casters are chained buffers with a fetish for certain spells, but even then, they usually have better ways to spend their actions.

[Firechanter]

@dndnewbie: just be glad you didn't experience the 3.0 Ranger anymore, that one sucked even more balls.

Still, the Ranger suffers from nonsynergistic abilities. You wear Light Armour but don't get Uncanny Dodge. As TWFer you get a pile of attacks, but hardly any bonus damage that would make up for the hit penalty. You get spells, but so late that they are meaningless by then, and at an atrocious caster level anyway. You get a pet but it is too squishy to actually use. You also get Hide in Plain Sight, but very very late, and anyway you don't get Sneak Attack so what are you going to do with it.

Long story short, the 3.5 Ranger sucks less than the 3.0 one, but only by a small margin. For all practical intents and purposes, the Druid is a better Ranger than any Ranger. This is one instance of the so-called Cleric-Archer-Phenomenon (or CAP for short).

All in all it is a horrible class. Almost as bad as the Monk. Which is a shame, because I love the Ranger _concept_.

[dndnewbie]

Yea...WotC sucks at game balance. TWF can work, but it takes a LOT of effort. You generally have to bite and scratch for a source of bonus damage. Rangers pretty notoriously lack that source, which is why a straight Ranger tends to be a weak choice. Swift Hunter (a feat from Complete Scoundrel that stacks Ranger + Scout levels for various attributes) is generally considered a late game fix for this, as it gives you a source of bonus damage (Skirmish) on top of the few toys that Ranger already gives (decent skills, bonus feats, full BAB, and some ok spells if you have Champions of Ruin and/or the Spell Compendium). Doesn't help you at all though, since you can't multiclass...
My DM has a Scout/Ranger specialized in archery in the campaign that he plays. He said that he was aware of the Swift Hunter feat and was thinking about letting me use it. This feat gives extra damage for every attack in a round, as long as the character moves 10 feets in the beggining of the turn.

A Ranger 6/Scout 4 specialized in TWF has +9/+4 BAB and 2 attacks with the off-hand (ITWF). How this character would apply the Skirmish damage, as he needs a full attack round to use his extra attacks? (afaik he can't do that, because he needs to move in the beginning of the round, unless it's a 5 feet adjustment move)

EDIT: Edited the second paragraph.

[Greenish]

How this character would apply the Skirmish damage, as he needs a full attack round to use his extra attacks? (afaik he can't do that, because he needs to move in the beginning of the round, unless it's a 5 feet adjustment move)Most of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) should work. Though notably the errata killed the scout mounted archer option, which was stupid, IMO.

[Edit]: Hmm, a simple mount is not listed? Well, I guess the thread's goal is to allow melee full attacks, but still, mount allows you to move without using your own actions.