Help with new character: Magic of Incarnum

[Kansaschaser]

I need some help with the Magic of Incarnum. I am playing in a game where we are all level 9. I want to build a "quarter" for this campaign and I'd like to use something from Magic of Incarnum because I'm growing tired and/or bored with everthing else. I want something that feels fresh to me.

Creation Rules.

1. 32 point buy
2. Gestalt (Favored class must be equal to hit dice. Other classes can be taken as normal.) So if I play a Human, I can choose anything for my Favored Class, but then that class must equal my hit dice.
3. Non-evil. I don't like playing evil. The closest I will come to evil is Chaotic Neutral.

So, what's a good Gestalt combination with the Magic of Incarnum? I like to build my characters up to level 20. I'm never so shortsited that I only want to be powerful at a specific level. I will sacrafice power at lower levels to gain greater power at higher levels.

[RaginChangeling]

Totemist meshes really well with Druid, you can use a feat to share your soulmelds with your companion and you can use them when in Wild Shape with no real penalties.

Incarnate can also be really fun in a build with a mix of Binder/Chameleon and Rogue on the other side. You can literally reinvent yourself every day, and fill any and every role you could ever desire.

[Keld Denar]

I played an Incarnate//Ardent once. It was a lot of fun. The Mind's Eye suppliment on the wizards.com website has a couple of really fun psionic soulmelds, including Psychic Focus which is fun for blasting since it can add on a secondary save vs daze to any nukes. For my Ardent mantles, I think I picked Energy and Freedom for my 2 main mantles, with Creation and Magic as my 2nd and 5th level mantles. I wouild have picked up the Dominant Ideal ACF in place of my 10th level mantle, for Energy, since the bulk of my powers were blasty. I'd create an Astral Construct in the first round, then blast with Energy Wall/Energy Missiles/Energy Stun while my construct tanked.

Both are Wisdom focused, so that's pretty SAD. Just focus on Wisdom, have a decent Con, and everything else is pretty minor outside of those.

[subject42]

NG Druid//Totemists with Vow of Poverty and Touch of Golden Ice are crazy broken.

Totemist also pairs nicely with Swordsage, if you use the Totemist for Defensive abilities and Swordsage for offensive.

[Kansaschaser]

I really like the Druid / Totemist idea. However, we already have a Wild Shaping Druid in the group. He even took Master of Many Forms.

The Incarnate/Ardent seems pretty cool. I was leaning toward the Incarnate to begin with, but was unsure what to pair it with.

As for Vow of Poverty, I was thinking of an Incarnate/Monk. Still not sure what to do.

Would an Incarnate / Totemist be worth it?

[Keld Denar]

No. You can only have one soulmeld shaped to any given body slot, even without Chakra binds, and when you start binding things, you'll burn up your magic item slots so fast.

The nice thing, however, would be the MASSIVE essentia pool you'd have. You could probably afford to keep all of the melds you can shape completely full at any given level.

No, you'll get the best result from only having one Incarnum class.

Incarnate//Swordsage works out well too, as does Incarnate//Cleric. Heck, cast Divine Powah and you can get some pretty sick hits with your Incarnum Weapon and Power Attack.

Oh....Incarate//PsyWar would also be kinda fun. You could manifest Hustle to get the extra move action you need to power your Incarnate Weapon while still full attacking every round. Link Power will be a godsend here.

[Kansaschaser]

No. You can only have one soulmeld shaped to any given body slot, even without Chakra binds, and when you start binding things, you'll burn up your magic item slots so fast.

The nice thing, however, would be the MASSIVE essentia pool you'd have. You could probably afford to keep all of the melds you can shape completely full at any given level.

No, you'll get the best result from only having one Incarnum class.

Incarnate//Swordsage works out well too, as does Incarnate//Cleric. Heck, cast Divine Powah and you can get some pretty sick hits with your Incarnum Weapon and Power Attack.

Oh....Incarate//PsyWar would also be kinda fun. You could manifest Hustle to get the extra move action you need to power your Incarnate Weapon while still full attacking every round. Link Power will be a godsend here.

Ok, so I'll avoid Incarnate/Totemist. I kind of like the Incarnate/Cleric idea. Are there any combo feats, spells, or prestige classes that could help mesh the Incarnate/Cleric? With the Cleric, I won't be taking Vow of Poverty. Would a Favored Sould, Spirit Shaman, or Shugenja work just as well as a Cleric?

[subject42]

Are there any combo feats, spells, or prestige classes that could help mesh the Incarnate/Cleric?

Midnight metamagic is fun. It's kind of like divine metamagic that runs off of essentia.

[Keld Denar]

Actually, go with Cloistererd Cleric. The loss of HP and BAB won't bother you due to Incarnate's d8 and Divine Powah, and the extra skill points will be welcome!

As far as things that synergize, well, you could go with Midnight Metamagic, even though Divine Metamagic does it better. Other than that, just use Incarnum to cover some immunities and other utilities so you can save spell slots for the real power plays.

[Kansaschaser]

Actually, go with Cloistererd Cleric. The loss of HP and BAB won't bother you due to Incarnate's d8 and Divine Powah, and the extra skill points will be welcome!

As far as things that synergize, well, you could go with Midnight Metamagic, even though Divine Metamagic does it better. Other than that, just use Incarnum to cover some immunities and other utilities so you can save spell slots for the real power plays.

I could take Midnight Metamagic and Divine Metamagic. That wouldn't be redundant would it?

[subject42]

I could take Midnight Metamagic and Divine Metamagic. That wouldn't be redundant would it?

It wouldn't be redundant, but if you combine it with nightstick/essentia helm abuse expect your DM to punch you.

[Kansaschaser]

It wouldn't be redundant, but if you combine it with nightstick/essentia helm abuse expect your DM to punch you.

No, my dungeon master won't punch me. He uses a Katana. No joke, he actually used it to subdue a knife weilding home intruder once.

So, I'll avoid that little optimization to avoid getting cut.

[Bang!]

The Incarnate's Soulmeld list has some gems and the Wisdom-based DCs are nice enough that it's not totally clear-cut, but I think Totemist would be more useful here.

Totemist would improve the character's framework with improved BA, HD and Reflex. But more importantly, it would dramatically improve the character's skills, both by reducing redundancy between the CC and Incarnate skill lists, and by shifting the soulmelds' skill bonuses from Insight to Competence. Divine Insight (Spell Compendium) gives the Cleric a sizable Insight bonus to skill checks which doesn't stack with those given by the Incarnate's soulmelds.

The Wisdom -> Constitution change in DCs shouldn't hurt too badly. In any case, Constitution is going to need to be high to shape soulmelds and to survive damage. And in either case, Incarnum is probably going to be better suited to providing support to Cleric-driven offense than the other way around.

On the other hand, Law Incarnate//Cloistered Cleric could be scary in melee while only having 1/2 [class-derived] BA and d6 HD. And that is worth much style points.

Re: Divine + Midnight Metamagic
Divine Soultouch + MMM might not have quite the same punch as DMM + MMM, but it's punchier, more unique and more interesting.

[Kansaschaser]

I should probably state that the dungeon master doesn't hand out a lot of gold and/or magic items. That's why I was leaning toward the Vow of Poverty at the beginning.

Someone is going to need to make a good argument as to why Vow of Poverty is not that good, or I'm going to take it.

Monk / Incarnate or Incarnate / Totemist on Vow of Poverty?

[Tvtyrant]

I actually like Vow of Poverty myself because it gives you some nice boosts that apply to your varied natural attacks. However it is limiting because there are magic items out there that are much, much better.

An item that grants you the Wu Jen ability Giant Size is amazing, and allows you to become colossal with a tremendous strength boost (and Grapple bonus of course).

[jvluso]

incarnate//crusader is considered very hard to kill
anything with a lot of active abilities will gestalt well with incarnum which provides a lot of passive abilities

If you do decide to take VoP, make sure you have a way to fly. Monk will not give this, and if I remember correctly, incarnum will only give this with a questionable reading of air step sandals.

[Bang!]

Just to combine some of the ideas that have been tossed around, Shaman from Oriental Adventures is very similar to a [slightly-nerfed] Monk//Cleric (basically restricted to the core Cleric spell list, but it has some neat stuff like Giant Size and some outlines for spell list expansion in Spell Compendium).

A Travel + Hero domain Shaman//Incarnate could succeed despite Vow of Poverty restrictions, could bust out some Kung Fu and then blow up to Colossal when the need arose. It could also make use of the superb Share Soulmeld feat and Shaman self-buffs with its animal companion.

[Kansaschaser]

Thanks guys. These are all great suggestions. Now I just need to build the character.

Is there anything else I should avoid? I know not to take the Soulborn.

[Greenish]

Actually, go with Cloistererd Cleric. The loss of HP and BAB won't bother you due to Incarnate's d8 and Divine Powah, and the extra skill points will be welcome!Incarnate's HD is d6. And both of MoI's base classes gestalt well with pretty much anyone.

Personally, I'd be tempted to go incarnate//factotum (and dump wisdom). But now that I consider totemist//swordsage… Yes, I like.

[Keld Denar]

Oh, huh...must have confused that with Ardent. Anyway, just because Soulborn is TERRIBAD doesn't mean it's soulmelds are. Thunderstep Boots are a Soulborn only meld, and are positively fantastic, especially if you have pounce. Luckily, Incarnum has an awesome feat called Shape Soulmeld which allows you to poach any meld off any list. Buy it as an Incarnate or Totemist, and bind it to the Feet Chakra that those classes open for lots of good save vs stun goodness!

[Greenish]

Oh, huh...must have confused that with Ardent.Has ardent's HD been errata'ed from d6 to d8?

[Keld Denar]

Wow, I should just retire from this crap...I'm getting old.

[Greenish]

Wow, I should just retire from this crap...I'm getting old.Heh, it's not like there's a great difference between the two, compared to the hp you get from Con.

Besides, don't think of it as something you forgot. Think of it as something removed to make room for something more important. :smalltongue: