Why is Sneak Attack limited to 30'?

[Endarire]

Really. Rogues are typically frail and archery is logical. Most projectile weapons have at least a 50' range, but Sneak Attack is limited to 30'. Why?

[Cog]

Because if you're going to stab somebody in the back you should have the decency to do it to his face.

[Keld Denar]

Back in the days of 3.0, WotC decided that 30' was the limit on the ability to accurately target precision damage (as evidenced by Point Blank Shot), and they just extrapolated from there.

[gbprime]

The thinking is that you have to be close enough to pick out and hit a vital spot, and someone decided that "close enough" meant 30 feet. There are various class abilities, feats, and spells that extend this range, and people cherish them.

[Amphetryon]

Back in the days of 3.0, WotC decided that 30' was the limit on the ability to accurately target precision damage (as evidenced by Point Blank Shot), and they just extrapolated from there.

This. They needed to set a reasonable - and reasonably hard to break - limit on the furthest range from which one could accurately target weak points before the game's fragile verisimilitude started pointing and laughing at the designers at every turn, and 30' seemed a good number. If it had been set at 50', some folks would want it at 60', and so on. They needed to mark a line in the sand, and chose 30' as their spot.

[Eldariel]

This. They needed to set a reasonable - and reasonably hard to break - limit on the furthest range from which one could accurately target weak points before the game's fragile verisimilitude started pointing and laughing at the designers at every turn, and 30' seemed a good number. If it had been set at 50', some folks would want it at 60', and so on. They needed to mark a line in the sand, and chose 30' as their spot.

Back in 3.0, Weapon Specialization had a 30' limit too.

[KillianHawkeye]

Did you also know that Medusas are visually indistinguishable from humans from more than 30 feet away? Have you SEEN a picture of the Medusa???

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG181.jpg
Yeah. :smallsigh:

[Zaq]

I think it's mostly so that the Rogue would have to stay within standard move-and-attack range. (Yes, standard charge range is double that, but I believe that WotC was, for most of 3.5, only dimly aware that charges existed and gave them all the nice things they did basically on accident.)

Personally? I think it should scale with Rogue (or other SA-granting class) level.


Did you also know that Medusas are visually indistinguishable from humans from more than 30 feet away? Have you SEEN a picture of the Medusa???

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG181.jpg
Yeah. :smallsigh:

Fluff and fluff-related numbers in the Monster Manual are only about one step up from numbers in the Pokédex. (Unfortunately, the "medusas look like humans from 31' away!" nonsense is disturbingly close to crunch, but eh.)

[Curmudgeon]

In the mindset of Wizards being blasters with limited battery power and Clerics running around touching up allies' hit points in combat, the designers thought the other requirement (opponent denied DEX bonus to AC) on sneak attack wasn't adequate. Thus they added a closeness requirement as well, because the Rogue was supposed to be about traps, locks, and picking pockets, and needed to be restrained from too much combat power. :smallsigh:

[ericgrau]

Back in 3.0, Weapon Specialization had a 30' limit too.

Is that why I got shafted so hard on epic weapon specialization, no 3.5 update? Man I should have asked for that one to be changed. OTOH I was already the main damage dealer.

[Eldariel]

Is that why I got shafted so hard on epic weapon specialization, no 3.5 update? Man I should have asked for that one to be changed. OTOH I was already the main damage dealer.

Yeah, unfortunately SRD doesn't update 3.0isms in the feats; that's the prob with Multispell, Epic Weapon Spec and few others. Luckily enough, said updates are easy and self-evident enough to be considered trivial to make manually, as they have clear and easily discernable patterns to follow from their non-epic 3.5 counterparts.

[Jack Zander]

I think its much more reasonable to have feats such as point blank shot and abilities such as sneak attack work out to the first range increment of the weapon you are using. That way you don't end up with silly things such as thrown weapons giving a penalty to hit at 20 feet, but you can still sneak attack just fine.

[true_shinken]

I think its much more reasonable to have feats such as point blank shot and abilities such as sneak attack work out to the first range increment of the weapon you are using. That way you don't end up with silly things such as thrown weapons giving a penalty to hit at 20 feet, but you can still sneak attack just fine.

That's apples and oranges.
Range limit on sneak attack is about sight.
Range increment on thrown weapon is about how balanced they are.
Basically, if you can see the vitals and you get the opening for it, you can even throw a greataxe as an improvised weapon. It will be damn hard, but you could do it.
Ask Bullseye (http://marvel.wikia.com/Bullseye).

[dgnslyr]

Did you also know that Medusas are visually indistinguishable from humans from more than 30 feet away? Have you SEEN a picture of the Medusa???

-snippity-
Yeah. :smallsigh:

I guess they're assuming most medusas will be wearing a long, hooded robe prior to combat. One humanoid in a robe is the same as another, right?

[ericgrau]

Actually the monster manual assumes exactly that. And even less than 30' if they cover their face. Their stated tactic is to lure people close and then use the gaze attack.

[Godskook]

I've personally been debating giving precision damage the same range as 'close' spells have, but scaling on HD, rather than CL. So at lvl 20, a rogue or swordsage could SA out to 75 feet.

[Curmudgeon]

I've personally been debating giving precision damage the same range as 'close' spells have, but scaling on HD, rather than CL. So at lvl 20, a rogue or swordsage could SA out to 75 feet.
... but they start at a 25' limit instead of 30'. Of course if it's scaling on any HD then it's going to be an even better incentive for dipping. Perhaps change it to only scale on HD of classes/races that grant precision damage? That would seem like a reasonable modification to me.

[stainboy]

In the mindset of Wizards being blasters with limited battery power and Clerics running around touching up allies' hit points in combat, the designers thought the other requirement (opponent denied DEX bonus to AC) on sneak attack wasn't adequate. Thus they added a closeness requirement as well, because the Rogue was supposed to be about traps, locks, and picking pockets, and needed to be restrained from too much combat power. :smallsigh:

I think it was the other way around. Sneak Attack replaced Backstab. Backstab's setup in Skills & Powers was "the thief strikes a target from behind with surprise," which is ambiguous but strongly implies melee only. The 3.0 writers probably thought of themselves as creating a way to use a melee move with a bow, not restricting a ranged move to near melee.

[true_shinken]

I think it was the other way around. Sneak Attack replaced Backstab. Backstab's setup in Skills & Powers was "the thief strikes a target from behind with surprise," which is ambiguous but strongly implies melee only. The 3.0 writers probably thought of themselves as creating a way to use a melee move with a bow, not restricting a ranged move to near melee.

It not even ambiguous, backstab was melee-only, that's a fact.

[Cog]

Perhaps change it to only scale on HD of classes/races that grant precision damage?
If they aren't using classes that advance their precision damage, then they're already penalized by losing damage.

[Daftendirekt]

Because if you're going to stab somebody in the back you should have the decency to do it to his face.

http://www.fireflywiki.org/img/Mal23.jpg

[Cog]

[Mal Reynolds]
I didn't realize I was doing that but I'm not the least bit surprised. :smallcool:

[Daftendirekt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfd7itJr9h0

:D

Anyway, on-topic, I have always found the 30' limit on sneak attack very annoying. One 3.5 build I always wanted to do was a sniper with super stealth and a heavy repeating crossbow (closest thing to a sniper rifle :P)

3.5 rules for stealth and sneak attack just don't make it possible without magic, and barely possible with.

[stainboy]

It not even ambiguous, backstab was melee-only, that's a fact.

Cool, I thought so but I wasn't sure. It's been awhile.

[Greenish]

... but they start at a 25' limit instead of 30'.Close range is 25'+5'/level, so it'd start from 30' at level 1.

Anyway, on-topic, I have always found the 30' limit on sneak attack very annoying. One 3.5 build I always wanted to do was a sniper with super stealth and a heavy repeating crossbow (closest thing to a sniper rifle :P)Well, Crossbow Sniper extends the range to 60', which isn't that bad. Slap on HiPS and Travel Devotion to hide after full attack.

[Eldariel]

Close range is 25'+5'/level, so it'd start from 30' at level 1.

25'+5'/2 levels, actually.

[Cog]

A Darkness SLA with the Blend into Shadows feat can pull off the swift hiding as well. Travel Devotion is better for most builds, but it's worth a mention.

[Greenish]

25'+5'/2 levels, actually.Right. :smallredface:

What was I thinking, trying to correct Curmudgeon…

[Curmudgeon]

If they aren't using classes that advance their precision damage, then they're already penalized by losing damage.
They're only partially penalized if they've got Craven (and, of course, why wouldn't they?) since that feat keeps increasing sneak attack (or sudden strike) damage. Since you can also get sneak attack solely via spells, it seems like this range improvement would be better served by rewarding just those classes that grant precision damage.

My 2 cp.

[true_shinken]

3.5 rules for stealth and sneak attack just don't make it possible without magic, and barely possible with.
Do you really think this should be possible without magic? :smallconfused:

[Greenish]

Do you really think this should be possible without magic? :smallconfused:What, sniping? I don't see why not.

[Eldariel]

Anyway, on-topic, I have always found the 30' limit on sneak attack very annoying. One 3.5 build I always wanted to do was a sniper with super stealth and a heavy repeating crossbow (closest thing to a sniper rifle :P)

3.5 rules for stealth and sneak attack just don't make it possible without magic, and barely possible with.

It's possible without Magic; you just need to know what you're doing (tip: Targeteer + Deepwood Sniper with a Great Crossbow). Of course, that means on drawing some of the most obscure sources available including a 3.0 source without an update (still legal for 3.5) and Dragon Magazine but it can be done :smallamused: Then you just need Hide in Plain Sight and you're good to go; e.g. Stalker of Kharesh gets that in a reasonably expedite manner.

[Cog]

I'd be okay with it as a PrC ability, personally, with limits to be determined.

[true_shinken]

What, sniping? I don't see why not.
Well, we need high technology (and training, but that is a given) to snipe effectively. If you don't have high technology, you'd need magic.

Also, considering there is no 'level-relevant damage' on the real world, it all boils down to hitting. You can snipe level one characters easily in D&D.

[Greenish]

Well, we need high technology (and training, but that is a given) to snipe effectively.Really? High tech like like iron-sighted Mosin-Nagants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä)? :smalltongue:

I have no problem believing a MW dwarvencraft crossbow with Gnomish Crossbow Sights is plenty accurate enough to be considered viable for sniping.

[Cog]

Magic is still there indirectly as well - in the +3 bow you're using, in the magic-item boosted Spot check you might be making, in the magically enhanced Dexterity you're aiming with.

[true_shinken]

I have no problem believing a MW dwarvencraft crossbow with Gnomish Crossbow Sights is plenty accurate enough to be considered viable for sniping.
And it is, against humanoids at level one.

Try sniping an elephant with a crossbow and see if it works.

[Amphetryon]

And it is, against humanoids at level one.

Try sniping an elephant with a crossbow and see if it works.

Elephants are CR7. If I'm sniping an elephant with a non-magic, normal crossbow, the campaign's already pretty far from typical D&D expectations of WBL.

[Eldariel]

Elephants are CR7. If I'm sniping an elephant with a non-magic, normal crossbow, the campaign's already pretty far from typical D&D expectations of WBL.

I think he meant trying to snipe a real Elephant (idea being, that's why you can't do it in D&D either). You need a pretty damn good shot to take one down, provided the Xbow can even penetrate deep enough to cut something vital.

That said, by D&D stats, you could probably kill an Elephant in one shot 50% of the time on like level 12, without using magic. At least I think so; haven't actually done the math. That said, they only have 104 HP; can't be all that hard to get a likely crit and hit AC 15, and crit for 114 points.

[Doughnut Master]

I've seen some interesting feats floating around the internet for this.

http://home.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/combatfeats.htm

Aimed Shot and Crossbow Master lets you SA at 1 range increment. Can be useful for a sniper (one shot one kill) build.

[Daftendirekt]

Do you really think this should be possible without magic? :smallconfused:

Uh, yeah. Sneak attacking isn't some crazy supernatural ability. It's just hitting vital areas for maximum harmful effect. My example was a crossbow sniper. Guess what I was comparing that to: REAL WORLD SNIPERS. You know what they usually do? Aim for the head. Maximum effect. Crazy right?! And no magic. Know what else is crazy? They do it from thousands of feet away.

Now, obviously in the DnD setting scopes that powerful don't exist, but I still think 30 feet is a tad ridiculous. I think... 100 feet, even, isn't asking too much.

[Greenish]

Now, obviously in the DnD setting scopes that powerful don't exist, but I still think 30 feet is a tad ridiculous. I think... 100 feet, even, isn't asking too much.Gnome Crossbow Scope lets you ignore first two range increments, so your accuracy with a heavy crossbow would start dropping after 360 feet. :smallcool:

[Daftendirekt]

Sure, you could hit the guy at 360 feet. But could you consistently nail him in the jugular so he goes down bleeding?

[Greenish]

Sure, you could hit the guy at 360 feet. But could you consistently nail him in the jugular so he goes down bleeding?As easily as from 10'. No penalties from distance either way.

[Daftendirekt]

Point being you can't use sneak attack from 360' away by RAW. I know that you could hit him with no penalty. Better range increments do not a better sneak attack make.

[Greenish]

Point being you can't use sneak attack from 360' away by RAW. I know that you could hit him with no penalty. Better range increments do not a better sneak attack make.I weren't talking about RAW, I was talking about scopes. :smallamused:

[true_shinken]

Uh, yeah. Sneak attacking isn't some crazy supernatural ability. It's just hitting vital areas for maximum harmful effect. My example was a crossbow sniper. Guess what I was comparing that to: REAL WORLD SNIPERS. You know what they usually do? Aim for the head. Maximum effect. Crazy right?! And no magic. Know what else is crazy? They do it from thousands of feet away.
The thing is, I don't think a shot to the head needs to be a sneak attack. There is a game called d20 Modern that deals with this very archetype - the sniper and his wonderful toys. And there is no sneak attack for snipers. They just aim and rely on their weapons base damage (and that's a lot of damage).
Sneak attack is more like martial artists hitting pressure points than snipers. You're trying to use hammers to do a screwdriver's jobs.

Now, obviously in the DnD setting scopes that powerful don't exist, but I still think 30 feet is a tad ridiculous. I think... 100 feet, even, isn't asking too much.
Actually, D&D has a scope a lot more powerful - the wizard. There good 'sniper archer' builds (without sneak attack) that need magic to pinpoint their target, even.

TL;DR You can have a sniper in D&D, it just doesn't have sneak attack.

[Daftendirekt]

You have no idea how much that annoys the **** out of me. You sound like the guy in my group who I've seen play almost nothing but wizards because "they're the best, so why would I want to play anything else?"

"Oh, you can't do it? Guess what. Magic can do it." Sniping is not one of those things that you should have to resort to magic to do.

[true_shinken]

"Oh, you can't do it? Guess what. Magic can do it." Sniping is not one of those things that you should have to resort to magic to do.
You can snipe in D&D, without magic. You just can't do it against high level targets.
Also, WHY should sniping be one of the things you can do without resorting to magic AND advanced technology? Because as of now, it looks like it's just because you want it to.

[Veyr]

Because it is totally something that can be done in the real world sans high technology, and is a major part of many myths, legends, and fantasy stories?

A modern sniper's scope allows him to snipe targets that are about a mile away. That's 176 times the limit on Sneak Attack. We aren't talking about that, though. We're talking about, say, 120 ft. — the first range increment on a Greatbow (IIRC).

[Doughnut Master]

And I agree that it is frustrating that high magic is the only way to reach that kind of ability. I don't see why that sort of thing can't be attained through an investment in feats or class features.

Magic doesn't have to be the only way.

[true_shinken]

Because it is totally something that can be done in the real world sans high technology, and is a major part of many myths, legends, and fantasy stories?
Myths, legends and fantasy already include magic.
Also, you can do it in D&D just fine. You just can't do it as a Rogue.
Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0), just give it a read and then we'll talk, OK?

[Daftendirekt]

Woooow, an incomplete handbook that doesn't do much more than mention some feats and weapons. That does not show much at all on how to be a mundane sniper. Great find.

[Greenish]

Woooow, an incomplete handbook that doesn't do much more than mention some feats and weapons. That does not show much at all on how to be a mundane sniper. Great find.Targeteer/Deepwood Sniper with Repeating Heavy Crossbow, Crossbow Sniper, Woodland Archer, Concealed Ambush and maybe Darkstalker with newer dark template for HiPS should be a good start. 1.5x Dex to damage, 17-20/x4 crit, poisons. Might slap on Education & Knowledge Devotion or just plain ol' WF, WS, Ranged Weapon Master chain.

[lesser_minion]

Point being you can't use sneak attack from 360' away by RAW. I know that you could hit him with no penalty. Better range increments do not a better sneak attack make.

Why do you need the sneak attack damage bonus in order to model sniping exactly? You're doing 2d6 damage (2d10 with the mosin-nagant) to a guy with 1d4 or 1d8 hit points. Knock him into negatives and he goes down and starts bleeding out.

Why you're arguing that the D&D rules are borked based on the example of real-world sniping, which is clearly out of their scope, is another question. No D&D ranged weapon is accurate to anything even resembling the 300m range at which regular soldiers are expected to operate, let alone the 600m plus range of military snipers (the record is something like 2 miles, but that's not exactly routine).

Sneak attack reflects nothing besides the fact that rogues could use a boost in combat. Sure, there's something about hitting a "vital spot". That doesn't mean that every shot aimed at a vulnerable location must be a sneak attack.

[Amphetryon]

Why do you need the sneak attack damage bonus in order to model sniping exactly? You're doing 2d6 damage (2d10 with the mosin-nagant) to a guy with 1d4 or 1d8 hit points. Knock him into negatives and he goes down and starts bleeding out.


My presumption is that most folks who are valid targets for a legitimate 'sniper' may well have a character level or 3. 7-ish HP damage to someone with double digit HPs is an inefficient standard for someone who makes his livelihood from "one shot, one kill."

[Person_Man]

On a more meta level, D&D is a game that is usually played with miniatures on a table. A table has a very limited amount of space. So even if a "realistic" archers could kill from quite some distance away, the game is designed to encourage people to be close to each other, because that's the size of the "field" on which they can fight. Also, if Player 1 has the ability to attack from 40 inches away and move 10 inches every round, but 80% of Enemies can only attack from 1 inch away and move 8 inches per round, then combat will not be competitive or interesting after a few encounters. So Precision Damage is limited, Feats like Spring Attack are written to be weak and have annoying pre-reqs, most combats are in enclosed settings, ranged attackers provoke AoO when they fire, and so on. Eventually codex creep makes this overall design goal moot. But you get the point.