Makin' a Rogue

[TechnOkami]

Which basically cannot have level dips, thus, no brokenness. I'm not looking to make a broken character, I'm just looking for suggestions for a more proper full build on a lvl 20 Rogue. (currently I'm level 6, and the feats I'm thinking of are TWF, Weapon Finesse, and Quick Draw)

And please don't just forward me to the Rogue Handbook. I wouldn't be posting this if I didn't feel that it couldn't answer my specific needs.

[Ajadea]

Two ACFs to consider:

Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape)
-Give up Trap Sense to be able to deal 1/2 normal dice SA damage to normally immune beings. Now you can sneak attack everything!

Disruptive Attack (PHBII)
-Give up Uncanny Dodge to get another option for Sneak Attack: instead of dealing normal damage, lower AC by 5. Not sure how good it is, but it's something to think about.

[JohnDaBarr]

take feat Craven (you get 1 dmg per your lvl on SA, so lvl 9 you have +9 on your SA, it's OP)

Staggering Strike (when you sneak attack and your target fails a Fort save = your damage he/she/it loses the next round)

[Curmudgeon]

Which basically cannot have level dips, thus, no brokenness.
Level dips and "brokenness" aren't strongly correlated. You'll get more benefit in a Forgotten Realms campaign out of the Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave (page 152) than a 1-level dip into Shadowdancer. (You buy off the +1 level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) for 3,000 XP at class level 3.) That template is a stronger option than the Shadowdancer dip, and I recommend it highly. Also, there's no benefit to taking Rogue 20; that's a "dead" level; you really do need to multiclass by at least 1 level in 20.

the feats I'm thinking of are TWF, Weapon Finesse, and Quick Draw)
The only one of those worth considering is Weapon Finesse, because you can't afford what's associated with those other feats.

Two-Weapon Fighting is a 3-4 deep feat chain with diminishing returns, and feats are precious to Rogues.
A minimum -2 penalty to all attacks with medium BAB means you'll miss too often to be effective.
TWF only works with full attacks. Given how precious feats are, you should select those that work in more situations.
Quick Draw presupposes a need that justifies that precious feat expenditure. That either means you don't want to drop your bow to enter melee (which wouldn't be necessary with just one melee weapon), or you're going to throw things.
Throwing stuff is a generally bad idea: range penalties mean you won't hit very often, and damage is mostly inferior to the composite shortbow you're already proficient with (or you'll suffer from the weight of carrying javelins ─ 13.3x as heavy as arrows for the same damage).
Some useful suggestions:

Selection of race is important to a Rogue. While being Human gives you a (vitally needed) bonus feat, your Rogue abilities can use the boost from some other race, such as Elf. Most Elf choices increase DEX, which is useful to your class abilities. But since there are many Elf variants, you can also select for benefits to other abilities, such as the Silvanesti Elf (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, page 20), which also boosts INT. This provides more skill points starting right from character creation. All Elves have at least low-light vision (a big plus over Human senses half the day) and trance for just 4 hours instead of needing to sleep for 8. Extra time, and extra alertness, are valuable to your Rogue. Elf also gives you proficiency with the longbow, which is an improvement over your normal Rogue shortbow.
The Lightbringer Penetrating Strike alternative class feature (ACF) in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (page 208) trades trap sense for the ability to do sneak attack damage, with ½ the normal dice, to sneak-immune foes you flank. This looks like the Penetrating Strike ACF in Dungeonscape, but that latter one is ambiguous about whether you're still doing sneak attack damage. Since these ACFs have different names, choose Lightbringer Penetrating Strike to avoid confusion.
The sine qua non feat for Rogues is Craven (Champions of Ruin, page 17; this boosts your sneak attack by +1 point per character level. That means the multiclassing you don't want to do (but should, for a level) won't reduce the Craven bonus.
Since Craven bonus damage isn't from dice, you'll want to increase your chances of making a critical hit.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. The Rogue's best melee weapon is the rapier. Add the keen enhancement and you'll threaten on rolls of 15-20, and will double your static bonus (STR mod + weapon numerical enhancement + Craven) on critical hits.
If you're in a Forgotten Realms campaign and have Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight from that template I mentioned, you'll be able to Hide practically all the time. Take the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness, page 179) to extend that ability even against enemies with blindsight, tremorsense, & c.
Uncanny Bravery ACF (Dragon Magic, page 14) substitutes Improved Uncanny Dodge at Rogue level 8 for

immunity to dragons' Frightful Presence, and
+4 to saving throws against other fear effects.

Maximize your Spot skill to avoid being surprised. If you walk around with a composite shortbow (or longbow, if Elf) bow ready to fire you'll get sneak attack against surprised enemies within range. On the first regular round of combat your good DEX score will make it very likely that some enemies will have inferior initiative and you'll get to add a full round of sneak attacks against those flat-footed foes.
Get a flanking partner, and wait (shooting arrows) for them to get into position. Draw your rapier as you move into position opposite your flanking buddy and you'll get to add sneak attack damage. You don't want to get into flanking position first, and you do want to maximize your Tumble skill so you can avoid attacks of opportunity on the way there.
Take the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) to enable one extra sneak attack per combat even when you don't have a flanking buddy in place.
Your level 9 feat should be Snap Kick (Tome of Battle, page 32); this lets you add a bonus unarmed strike whenever you make at least one melee attack. So Snap Kick works when you make a full attack (like Two-Weapon Fighting) and when you make a standard action attack, an attack of opportunity, or a bonus attack (such as if you trigger a wand of a touch attack spell with Use Magic Device). You buy the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite for Snap Kick in the form of an item which grants the feat: Bracers of Striking (low cost option: 1,310 gp in Magic of Faerûn) or a Fanged Ring (expensive option: 10,000 gp in Dragon Magic).
The two most important Rogue special abilities for you are Skill Mastery and Crippling Strike. Before you select the skills to master, get your INT boosted, if just by having an NPC spellcaster cast Fox's Cunning on you.
Your level 12 feat should be Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel, page 80), since this boosts all your Rogue special abilities. This will let you do STR damage with every hit against a sneak-immune foe with Crippling Strike, and "take 12" with all skills mastered with Skill Mastery.
If you've got a high INT, consider taking Education (Eberron Campaign Setting) at level 1 and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion, pages 60-61). Education makes all Knowledges class skills for you, and Knowledge Devotion gives you bonuses to attack and damage based on your Knowledge check for a creature type. The 6 Knowledge skills associated with creature types cover every possible enemy in D&D. With Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue you could guarantee the maximum +5 bonus from Knowledge Devotion vs. everything by about Rogue 14. As a constant bonus, Knowledge Devotion will get multiplied on all critical hits.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Which basically cannot have level dips.

Is this saying you don't want to have level dips, or can't have? Because rogue 20 is really and truly not worth it, and a quick dip, if you can, in nearly anything else will be better.

[TechnOkami]

Actually I have a quick q: about TWF. If you don't have the feat, what are the penalties on your person when using a rapier and a dagger at the same time?

[Cog]

The table is given here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting).

[Safety Sword]

Lots of good stuff about rogues

Just do what the man says or he'll sneak attack you. That is all.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would respectfully disagree with his distain of TWF, as Rogues are one of the few Core classes who actually make viable use of it, since they can stack damage bonuses better than the other classes can.

I will, however, agree that Quick Draw is made of Fail, unless it is combined with Flick of the Wrist and a couple of other tricks to create flat-footed attacks.

I think a lot of people have under-emphhasised Use Magic Device. There's a plethora of very handy items available to a Rogue with a modest skill investment. And, with the most number of skill points of any class in Core, you can afford it. Wand of Scorching Ray, for example, is an excellent way to get Ranged Sneak Attacks off. For cheaper, simply look at a Wand of Lesser Sonic Orb. A Wand of Knock obviates Open Lock skill. A wand of Grease re-enables sneak attacks. Wands of Golemstrike and Gravestrike re-activate sneak attacks on otherwise immune targets. Wand of Invisibility should be in any Rogue's bag of tricks, for obvious reasons.

If you are not wanting to make a 'broken' character, then what *are* you trying to make? Details, details, details. I cannot make bricks without clay.

[Draz74]

If you want to remain "pure Rogue" but can't stand the thought of taking that useless 20th level, a good compromise might be

Rogue 17 / Uncanny Trickster 3.

It's pretty much more Rogue-like than pure Rogue. Uncanny Trickster is an extremely easy class for Rogues to get into; it only has three levels (so you don't have to feel bad about dipping), it progresses your Rogue features for two levels (so you still end up with 10d6 sneak attack and a fourth Special Ability), and its main shtick is making you better at using your Skills, which (hey!) is pretty much the idea of the Rogue anyway.

[TechnOkami]

Actually, I have a question: Is the wizard + rogue + daggerspell mage a viable combination?

[Hirax]

The trap sensitivity feat from Dungeonscape allows you to make a search check for a trap if you come within 5 feet of it, as though you were actively looking for it. Beg your DM to waive the trap sense+2 requirement, and use one of the ACFs that replaces trap sense.

[Bang!]

Actually, I have a question: Is the wizard + rogue + daggerspell mage a viable combination?
It's totally playable, but Daggerspell Mage encourages you to stand in exactly the position you probably want least to stand if you're using Daggerspell Mage. (That position being dagger range.)

[Curmudgeon]

I would respectfully disagree with his distain of TWF, as Rogues are one of the few Core classes who actually make viable use of it, since they can stack damage bonuses better than the other classes can.
I don't deny that Rogues are better at TWF than other classes, but I still deny that the feat chain is worth taking. There are hundreds of feat options for your Rogue, and it's never been the case (without significant house rules) where I've found Two-Weapon Fighting a better choice than every one of those other feats. Rogues really aren't good at full attacks because of the problem of full counterattacks. Snap Kick, because it works with four different types of melee attacks (full attacks, standard action attacks, AoOs, and bonus attacks) instead of just one, is superior.

[ILM]

(currently I'm level 6, and the feats I'm thinking of are TWF, Weapon Finesse, and Quick Draw)
Forget Quick Draw, just grab Least Crystals of Return (MIC) for dirt cheap.


Actually, I have a question: Is the wizard + rogue + daggerspell mage a viable combination?
Since I can see you're serious about this no multiclassing thing, let me point out that Swashbuckler 1 nets you Weapon Finesse for free.


Staggering Strike (when you sneak attack and your target fails a Fort save = your damage he/she/it loses the next round)
A Fort save based on damage dealt, to boot. Hellooo, DC 100+ saves.


Selection of race is important to a Rogue. While being Human gives you a (vitally needed) bonus feat, your Rogue abilities can use the boost from some other race, such as Elf. Most Elf choices increase DEX, which is useful to your class abilities. But since there are many Elf variants, you can also select for benefits to other abilities, such as the Silvanesti Elf (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, page 20), which also boosts INT. This provides more skill points starting right from character creation. All Elves have at least low-light vision (a big plus over Human senses half the day) and trance for just 4 hours instead of needing to sleep for 8. Extra time, and extra alertness, are valuable to your Rogue. Elf also gives you proficiency with the longbow, which is an improvement over your normal Rogue shortbow.
True, but my love for Whisper Gnomes (RoS) is endless so I feel I should emphatically mention them here. WHISPER GNOMES, HELL YEAH!! They may not have a spiffy +2 dex/ +2 int, but they do sport +2 dex/ +2 con, and more hp and fort saves is good, generally speaking. Also, massive bonus to hide, decent bonus to move silently, and nifty spell-like abilities. There's fun to be had with the 1/day Silence - Extra Silence - Silencing Strike on casters.


If you don't go the rapier route you should take a look at Manyfang Daggers (Underdark). Quadruple damage: tasty with Craven. And if somehow you find yourself having too many feats (in which case you're probably doing something wrong), you could take Martial Strike/Martial Stance/Shadow Blade to get dex to damage - but it's a hell of an investment.

Finally, another item any rogue would like is the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis from ToM, which grants you the Dark template. HIPS (unfortunately Ex, as Curmudgeon pointed out to me recently) and more bonuses to hide and move silently.

edit: Re: the TWF debate, you can kinda get the best of both worlds as there's an item in MIC, the Gloves of the Balanced Hand, which let you attack as if you had the TWF feat (or ITWF if you already have TWF). 8k, if memory serves.

[MeeposFire]

Though it requires a lot of investment to get and use well (due to needing unarmed feats to make it work well unless you try to use adaptive weapon cheese).

If you just go for two weapon fighting and possibly imp two weapon fighting it is not so bad though I would never use greater two weapon fighting.

I prefer archery myself (it is safer and it is good at full attacks and standard action attacks and can be a bit more accurate) but then you have to find a way to get sneak attacks after the first round. Not impossible but tricky (getting greater invisibility on you would be one way which you can do with a wand but there must be cheaper/easier ways than that).

[Draz74]

If you don't go the rapier route you should take a look at Manyfang Daggers (Underdark).

Wow, did they really reprint the most broken item from the most broken splatbook (Serpent Kingdoms) in another splatbook?

[Leon]

Level dips and "brokenness" aren't strongly correlated.

Its more related than you think - The crap that some people come up with does spread and then you have to endure the restrictions put in place until you can convince assorted DMs that what one bunch of theory crafting people do doesn't make apply to the bulk of the gaming population.


Best Advice i can give is while it may seem like a good idea to plan your entire advancement career out do use it as a guide and leave room for interesting things that may occur or a another class/PrC that takes your fancy later.

Unless you plan to be throwing a lot a weapons I'd leave QD out for now.

[ILM]

Wow, did they really reprint the most broken item from the most broken splatbook (Serpent Kingdoms) in another splatbook?
Nope, it's actually Serpent Kingdoms, I brain farted.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wow, did they really reprint the most broken item from the most broken splatbook (Serpent Kingdoms) in another splatbook?

I would scarcely say that Manyfang Daggers are the most broken item in that book. This is, after all, the sourcebook that gave birth to Pun-Pun.


Actually, I have a question: Is the wizard + rogue + daggerspell mage a viable combination?

Actually, if you wanted a hybrid type class, going Psionic might be better, because then you can net Psionic Lion's Pounce to get a full attack on a charge, and be able to use TWF much more effectively, as well as maximize your first-round sneak attack potential.

Failing that, I highly suggest you look into Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter. It gives you TWF, precision-based damage, pounce (Lion's Pounce is a Ranger spell), Trapfinding, and all the 'sneaky' skills you could ask for.

Wizard/Rogue/Arcane Trickster is viable, though.

[Particle_Man]

Short swords of subtlety are nice -- maybe you can get a rapier that does the same? Keep improving it and eventually a +5 weapon that becomes effectively +9 when sneak attacking can mitigate the lower BAB you have.

If Tome of Battle is allowed, you could get a couple of feats, the second of which adds 2d6 to your sneak attacks (assassin's stance).

Rings of blinking are nice later on.

Darkvision (by race or magic item) would be handy.

Staggering Strike is a nice feat to have.

So is Elusive Target, but that is the third feat of a chain.

[ILM]

Rings of blinking are nice later on.
Except for the 20% miss chance you get.

[Cog]

Considering that concealment shuts down sneak attack, Pierce Magical Concealment isn't a bad investment either, and it deals with your own Blink effect just as well.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Considering that concealment shuts down sneak attack, Pierce Magical Concealment isn't a bad investment either, and it deals with your own Blink effect just as well.

And considering that concealment shuts down sneak attack, Lesser Cloak of Displacement is an invaluable defensive tool. Unless you DO have PMC, you're not sneak attacking me.

[Draz74]

I would scarcely say that Manyfang Daggers are the most broken item in that book. This is, after all, the sourcebook that gave birth to Pun-Pun.

You could be right; I haven't actually read Serpent Kingdoms. But by "item," I did in fact mean "magic item," so e.g. the Sarrukh doesn't count. Are there any items in Serpent Kingdoms that are more broken than Manyfang Dagger?

[ILM]

Considering that concealment shuts down sneak attack, Pierce Magical Concealment isn't a bad investment either, and it deals with your own Blink effect just as well.
Doesn't PMC require another (marginally useful at best) feat? It's a not insignificant investment.

[Greenish]

Doesn't PMC require another (marginally useful at best) feat? It's a not insignificant investment.PMC requires Mage Slayer and Blind-Fight.

[Cog]

Doesn't PMC require another (marginally useful at best) feat? It's a not insignificant investment.
I didn't quote, but I was referring to the post above mine; it wasn't a general suggestion. I could have been clearer about that.

[Doc Roc]

Its more related than you think - The crap that some people come up with does spread and then you have to endure the restrictions put in place until you can convince assorted DMs that what one bunch of theory crafting people do doesn't make apply to the bulk of the gaming population.


No, it's really not. Most of the truly strong builds tend to be wizard into a PrC or two. Maybe three. A lot of these PrCs get finished.

Wizard 5/War Weaver 5/Incantatrix 10.

In the case of rogue, UMD builds are quite powerful and have no facilitating dips. I don't think it's a good solution, having played a scrollificer extensively, but if you know the campaign is relatively short, you're not as worried about IP proofing or sustainability.

[Thespianus]

I don't deny that Rogues are better at TWF than other classes, but I still deny that the feat chain is worth taking. There are hundreds of feat options for your Rogue, and it's never been the case (without significant house rules) where I've found Two-Weapon Fighting a better choice than every one of those other feats. Rogues really aren't good at full attacks because of the problem of full counterattacks. Snap Kick, because it works with four different types of melee attacks (full attacks, standard action attacks, AoOs, and bonus attacks) instead of just one, is superior.

Do DMs in general accept Feats from items as qualification for other Feats? I've seen this on the boards quite a bit, and it just seems odd (for some reason, I can't put my finger on it) to be able to buy a ring to completely replace the need for taking a feat, and then building your character on top of that "fake" feat.

It might be a question for a separate thread, though. I love Rogue-type characters, and the Feat hunger of the Rogue is legendary, but even in the face of that, I find it hard to accept "Feat-carrying" items as prerequisites for other feats.

Is there an official ruling on this?

[Curmudgeon]

Do DMs in general accept Feats from items as qualification for other Feats? I've seen this on the boards quite a bit, and it just seems odd (for some reason, I can't put my finger on it) to be able to buy a ring to completely replace the need for taking a feat, and then building your character on top of that "fake" feat.
Yes, of course. A prerequisite is a prerequisite. You qualify with an item granting a feat just as you do with an item enhancing an ability score that's a feat prerequisite. Improved Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot) requires DEX 19, and characters commonly get there with Gloves of Dexterity. In both cases your qualification comes with a caveat:
A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.
There are a few feats that have more exacting prerequisites. Craven, for instance, requires
Prerequisite: Sneak attack class feature, cannot be immune to fear. so you wouldn't qualify with an item, spell, or feat that granted sneak attack. The general answer is: pay attention to what the rules actually say, and try not to let preconceived notions distract you from the RAW. Items can help you satisfy prerequisites, but with the risk of failure should you lose those items. :smalleek:

[elonin]

It's a risky way to go. Your character falls apart if the item is dispelled. Well temporarily anyway.

[Thespianus]

The general answer is: pay attention to what the rules actually say, and try not to let preconceived notions distract you from the RAW.
You're probably right, and I haven't found any rules that claim that only your "natural" feats count, so it's probably just me and my silly sense of what's "proper" that's causing problems here :)

Thanks for your response.