Base Class Capstones [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Kuulvheysoon

2011-04-26, 05:56 PM

Love 'em? Hate them? Let it out!

Personally, I love the flavour of the Truenamer (Tome of Magic) capstone. "Say My Name and I am There". I mean, not only does it actually tie in with the entire theme of the class (I'm looking at you, Monk), but it's actually a good enough reason to go straight TN (as if there were any other choice).

Monk... I dislike. I mean, it's all about perfection of the human form/mind... and as the capstone, you LOSE your humanity and become an outsider. Seriously? And it's not even mechanically good either.

MammonAzrael

2011-04-26, 06:06 PM

The Warblade has a very good capstone. As does the Knight. I agree that the Truenamer's capstone is awesome in it's flavor.

Unfortunately, not very many base classes have a captone, let alone a good capstone. And that is something I feel is vital to a well designed base class. A capstone needs to be powerful enough to warrant taking 20 full levels in a single class, instead of taking even a single level of a PrC.

The Cat Goddess

2011-04-26, 06:10 PM

Dread Necromancer.

As for Capstones... they're pretty rare for base classes until much later in the life of 3.5. It's clear that the original idea was that most people would multi-class and/or PrC.

Angry Bob

2011-04-26, 06:14 PM

Curmudgeon

2011-04-26, 06:17 PM

Worst capstone: Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm).

Draken

2011-04-26, 06:21 PM

The two base classes in Magic of Incarnum have some pretty damn awesome capstones. No, MoI does not have three base classes printed on it. Only crazy people think they see something between the Incarnate and the Totemist.

Kuulvheysoon

2011-04-26, 06:28 PM

Worst capstone: Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm).

Here's one better: Shugenja. At least Rogues GET class features after first level. Oh well, at least the Shugenja gets 6 9th level spells per day (before bonuses) at 20th... :smalltongue:

Zaq

2011-04-26, 06:35 PM

The great(or awful) thing about the truenamer capstone is it's like:

"Don't mess with me! I'm friends with a powerful truenamer who gave me a name to say whenever I needed his help!"

""Powerful truenamer". LOL."

Though at that level they do have gate pretty much at will, so maybe it's not so bad...

Well, we all know that the Ōendan (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OsuTatakaeOuendan) (and, to a lesser extent, the Elite Beat Agents) are 20th level gestalt Bard//Truenamers who clearly have Say My Name and I Am There. But, y'know, that's kinda different.

Anyway, yeah, I'm a fan of Say My Name and I Am There, I like the Spellthief's immediate magic counter (sure, it'll almost never work, but it'd be a great "screw you" if it did), and I like the Warblade's Stance Mastery. I certainly wouldn't scoff at the Knight's Loyal Beyond Death, either.

Here's one better: Shugenja. At least Rogues GET class features after first level. Oh well, at least the Shugenja gets 6 9th level spells per day (before bonuses) at 20th... :smalltongue:

A Shugenja gets a new 9th level spell known. A Rogue gets [ERROR, CLASS FEATURE NOT FOUND]

sreservoir

2011-04-26, 06:37 PM

Here's one better: Shugenja. At least Rogues GET class features after first level. Oh well, at least the Shugenja gets 6 9th level spells per day (before bonuses) at 20th... :smalltongue:

have you seen the sorcerer yet?

Curmudgeon

2011-04-26, 07:04 PM

have you seen the sorcerer yet?
If you don't think getting to cast 2 more 9th level spells each day is a class feature, you're seriously not paying attention. If you wanted to change the entire Rogue level 20 feature list to "can cast 2 9th level spells daily, chosen from the Sorcerer spell list", nobody would think you were short-changing the class.

Cog

2011-04-26, 07:16 PM

As for Capstones... they're pretty rare for base classes until much later in the life of 3.5. It's clear that the original idea was that most people would multi-class and/or PrC.
The horrid multiclass rules - short of Monk unarmed strike proficiency, probably one of the most houseruled things in the game - disagree with that.

The Cat Goddess

2011-04-26, 07:35 PM

The horrid multiclass rules - short of Monk unarmed strike proficiency, probably one of the most houseruled things in the game - disagree with that.

What, you mean "Favored Class"?

Heck, that is supported by the huge amount of front-loading most classes have. Other than spellcasters, you can get 75% of the benefit of a class from the first two levels (at least in the early years of 3.5).

Cog

2011-04-26, 07:38 PM

No, I mean the XP penalties for when you aren't using a favored class.

Curmudgeon

2011-04-26, 07:40 PM

No, I mean the XP penalties for when you aren't using a favored class.
I think the point was that because so many base classes are front-loaded, you can keep all your dips to 1-2 levels and with your favored class excluded, you won't suffer any multiclass XP penalties.

The Boz

2011-04-26, 07:43 PM

The Monk wins for worst capstone. It is really the only capstone that is actively detrimental to your character. Having no capstone is sixteen times better.

Curmudgeon

2011-04-26, 07:46 PM

The Monk wins for worst capstone. It is really the only capstone that is actively detrimental to your character.
Oh, come now. Think of all the benefits triggering your partially charged wands of Alter Self with cross-class Use Magic Device will give you as an Outsider. :smallwink:

The Boz

2011-04-26, 07:51 PM

Lateral

2011-04-26, 08:26 PM

The Factotum capstone is pretty cool, although it actually comes at 19th level and so isn't exactly a capstone.

Lucid

2011-04-26, 08:42 PM

Well, if it turned the Monk INTO a native outsider, it would be a nerf/buff, because it would increase his BAB and skill points, give darkvision... but it just makes him forever treated AS an outsider... and thus sucks...Doesn't the monk gain that at level one?:smallwink:

While I like the idea of capstones, I've honestly never played a character that didn't multiclass/prc'ed out before level 20. Though I might try going full Warblade sometime.

Unfortunately, not very many base classes have a captone, let alone a good capstone. And that is something I feel is vital to a well designed base class. A capstone needs to be powerful enough to warrant taking 20 full levels in a single class, instead of taking even a single level of a PrC. +1 to this, it's the last level pre-epic, give me something that's truly worth it!

tyckspoon

2011-04-26, 08:44 PM

Well, if it turned the Monk INTO a native outsider, it would be a nerf/buff, because it would increase his BAB and skill points, give darkvision... but it just makes him forever treated AS an outsider... and thus sucks...

Nah. 'cause your types only influence your racial Hit Dice.. you'd still be working with Monk BAB and skills, although you would get the martial weapon proficiencies and vision. So.. yay?

Dusk Eclipse

2011-04-26, 10:23 PM

I like the Swordsage Dual Boost ability; though I think it should be permanent (A la Warblade's Stance Mastery), I don't really see how using 2 boosts per round is broken. And the Final +1 to initiative is a cute side-dish in my opinion.

TOZ

2011-04-26, 11:08 PM

My favorite capstone is from Frank and K's Tomes, for the comedy value.

Win: At 20th level, (insert class here) wins D&D.

Viktyr Gehrig

2011-04-27, 01:18 AM

I love the Pathfinder Wizard capstones.

gomipile

2011-04-27, 01:21 AM

Worst capstone: Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm).

+1 BAB and +1 reflex save. Yeah, that's boring.

Firechanter

2011-04-27, 05:29 AM

Can't really call that a "capstone". Even a single level of Ranger gives you more than that.

What is everyone fretting about the Monk ability? Are you telling me you don't want to be Gated by anyone who knows your name? ^^

I agree that Warblade has a good one. It's one of the few classes that actually has a capstone that's more than +1 to an existing ability, or something bland like a bonus feat.

If anyone was willing to play a Ranger in my games, I'd give them Bane of Enemies as capstone.

Greymane

2011-04-27, 06:53 AM

Dread Necromancer and Truenamer capstones are my personal favorites.

A friend of mine was so underwhelmed by the Bard's they gave him Red Mage's (8-Bit Theater) ability to Mimic any one thing he's seen in the last five rounds once per encounter. I rather liked it, but that's homebrew.

Curmudgeon

2011-04-27, 07:24 AM

A friend of mine was so underwhelmed by the Bard's ...
That's +1 BAB, +1 to two saves, a boost to Inspire Courage, another spell known, and another spell castable daily.

That's at least 3 times as good as the Rogue capstone. Underwhelmed? :smallamused:

Greenish

2011-04-27, 09:55 AM

That's +1 BAB, +1 to two saves, a boost to Inspire Courage, another spell known, and another spell castable daily.

That's at least 3 times as good as the Rogue capstone. Underwhelmed? :smallamused:Rogue 20 is not something you set your expectations to. :smalltongue:

Curmudgeon

2011-04-27, 01:47 PM

Rogue 20 is not something you set your expectations to. :smalltongue:
No, it's really not. Rogue 14 (same minimal improvements) is a level you have to just grit you teeth and get through on the way to better things. :smallsigh:

Thefurmonger

2011-04-27, 01:55 PM

Beguiler gets a pretty good one.

At 20th level you auto overcome SR of any target denied their Dex bonus.

Thats Hot.

Darth Stabber

2011-04-27, 02:02 PM

You want a capstone for rogue? Take 1 lvl in anything that gives you another sa die. Rogue 19/spell thief 1 is a good example. You now have 11 sneak attack. Honestly, i'de give rogue 20 another SA and another special ability choice, it's not much but it's something.

Darth Stabber

2011-04-27, 02:07 PM

Curmudgeon

2011-04-27, 02:15 PM

Honestly, i'de give rogue 20 another SA and another special ability choice, it's not much but it's something.
I've seen a bunch of proposals for what to do with those "dead" levels (14 & 20). Extra Rogue special abilities at each is a popular house rule. Camouflage at 14 and Hide in Plain Sight at 20 (but only in unnatural/manmade surroundings) is another good one.

Wizards of the Coast paid someone to come up with some weak remedies for dead levels here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x). The author's idea that faster Disable Device was a substantially "beneficial" boost by the time the Rogue got to level 20 is rather droll.

Etrivar

2011-04-27, 02:17 PM

I'm actually rather fond of the Spellthief capstone, which allows you to recast any single target spell that targets you on the caster as a swift action. I once took down a cabal of high-level wizards and the only reason it worked was that ability (rolling a natural twenty against a Dominate Person, then bouncing it back on the wizard who rolled a one? Fun as hell).

The Cat Goddess

2011-04-27, 03:38 PM

Greenish

2011-04-27, 04:04 PM

Of course, the Lich template is pretty powerful.It's level 20 capstone. It should be.

TheGeckoKing

2011-04-27, 04:06 PM

Quick side note: both RAW and customer service rulings state that a DN 20 does not actually get the lich template, they are just undead with many lich-like abilities, infact your phylactery is non-functional, and will give you no greater chance of auto resurection than having another player hold your necklace for you. Now any gm that follows this ruling is a royal jerk, but there you go.

Now that i've re-read it, it seems your right. I really hate the part where it says you don't have to pay for the phylactery, and gives you a related-but-generally-useless feat the level before, so you CAN make the silly thing. Yeah, i'm really going to make a useless trinket.
No. That's what I pay Artificers to do.

And people have mocked me for preferring the Death Master's capstone, which is basically "Your a Lich. Yes, even then, you are a Lich. No, I don't care. Yes, I can see you're already a Lich. Your still going to become a Lich."

Greenish

2011-04-27, 04:10 PM

Now that i've re-read it, it seems your right. I really hate the part where it says you don't have to pay for the phylactery, and gives you a related-but-generally-useless feat the level before, so you CAN make the silly thing. Yeah, i'm really going to make a useless trinket.
No. That's what I pay Artificers to do.It's even sadder compared to Walker of the Waste, who gets his lichification 7-5 levels earlier and gets a bunch of working phylacteries. :smalltongue:

Koury

2011-04-27, 04:13 PM

Beguiler gets a pretty good one.

At 20th level you auto overcome SR of any target denied their Dex bonus.

Thats Hot.

Beguiler 20 casts a spell at a Golem denied their Dex? Does it work?

The Cat Goddess

2011-04-27, 04:18 PM

Beguiler 20 casts a spell at a Golem denied their Dex? Does it work?

Nice try, but no... Golems don't technically have SR... just immunity to things that don't ignore SR.

Koury

2011-04-27, 04:19 PM

Nice try, but no... Golems don't technically have SR... just immunity to things that don't ignore SR.

Wasn't really trying anything, just curious. :smallbiggrin:

And I thought golems were treated as having SR ∞, which is why I asked.

The Cat Goddess

2011-04-27, 04:20 PM

It's level 20 capstone. It should be.

Uh... no, no class has a capstone that is essentially LA+4. Not to mention turning all those d4 hit dice to d12s! :smalleek:

Cog

2011-04-27, 04:22 PM

The Beguiler's spell doesn't becomes SR:No; he just autowins the SR check. As soon as the check comes up, though, Immunity to Magic kicks in.

TheGeckoKing

2011-04-27, 04:25 PM

It's even sadder compared to Walker of the Waste, who gets his lichification 7-5 levels earlier and gets a bunch of working phylacteries.

Somewhere, there's a Epic party in a distant Necropolis...

Walker In The Waste: I became a Dry Lich at 15th level! But then I got saddled with +5 LA, and I can't play in puddles anymore. :smallannoyed:

Death Master: I took my first Lich template at 11th level, and then my capstone made me a DOUBLE LICH! +5 LA is a killer though, even with the buyoff. :smallmad:

Dread Necromancer: I slogged though the rubbish levels of 9-20, of my class.........to be a Necropolitan without the level loss. :smallfrown:

Necropolitan Deathbound Cleric: REBUKE UNDEAD!!

Truly, the DN has been shortchanged.

Uh... no, no class has a capstone that is essentially LA+4. Not to mention turning all those d4 hit dice to d12s!

Tell that to Persisted Shapechange/Draconic Polymorph/Normal Polymorph/Polymorph Any Object.

Lichdom, only without that ritual rubbish! (Needs Necropolitan, but still).

Greenish

2011-04-27, 04:26 PM

Uh... no, no class has a capstone that is essentially LA+4. Not to mention turning all those d4 hit dice to d12s! :smalleek:No? Walker of the Waste gets better in 10 levels. If there are classes, like rogue, with no awesome capstone, the problem is with those classes, not in Dread Necromancer (who might've been undead since level 3 anyhow, and would probably have been better off PrCing out after level 8 or so).

Darth Stabber

2011-04-27, 05:09 PM

Yeah... no.

Of course, the Lich template is pretty powerful. It could justify buying the Template (as levels) though.

As stated before, if you take DN levels 9-20 you really deserve the template. Most of the abilities are redundant with class features anyway (the dr, the fear aura, negative energy burst, ect). The only gains are undead type and phylactery (and turn resistance). You could have easily already been undead on the cheap (necropolitan), or atleast healed by inflicts (tomb tainted soul), so the only gain is phylactery. I'd say that is a perfectly fair capstone.

Edit: DN has a d6 hit die, and the d12s are not as big a gain as you might think, depending on con score. Probaby 1-2 per level. Maybe three if you had a 10 con.

Infernalbargain

2011-04-27, 06:02 PM

Aye, PF has come good capstones. Even fighters get something other than a bonus feat. Most of the sorcerer bloodlines give a good capstone. Though the arcane bloodline capstone is 100% broken (no 90 free wishes a day is not ok).

Thurbane

2011-04-28, 04:23 AM

Worst capstone: Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm).
Is that worse than the Mountebank (Dragon Magazine Compendium)? Your level 20 ability is...you become an NPC, and lose control of your character. Of course, any DM that enforces this after you playing 19 levels of a thoroughly mediocre class should feel guilty.

About the only thing Mountebank is any good for is Alter Self as an SLA, at 4th level. 1/2 level + CHA bonus times/day.

Uh... no, no class has a capstone that is essentially LA+4.
Again, Mountebank. Half-fiend, in fact.

Eldan

2011-04-28, 04:33 AM

Since prestige classes have come up, someone has to mention the Risen Martyr.

"So, your character died. You can either choose resurrection, or play this mediocre prestige class instead, which, at tenth level, kills your character again and makes him irresurrectible. Which is totally a real word."

JaronK

2011-04-28, 04:45 AM

Edit: DN has a d6 hit die, and the d12s are not as big a gain as you might think, depending on con score. Probaby 1-2 per level. Maybe three if you had a 10 con.

One would assume you're going to do this the same way you've raised all your undead so far, near a desecrated evil alter. And you're doing it yourself and you have the level 8 ability. So, at least you'll have D12+4 Hp/HD.

It's a solid capstone. Not amazing, but solid. Equivalent to the Warblade or Swordsage or Beguiler one, I'd say.

JaronK