Warlocks and Swashbucklers

[Cornlius Grim]

I have played several warlocks, and the eldritch blast damage is nice, but the number of invocations they get is a little too limited. However, they are incredibly helpful invocations and are usable at-will. Would anyone mind listing the pros and cons of playing a warlock? Also, add some roleplaying experiences you have had with a warlock.

Also, I am interested in playing a swashbuckler in another game with some people. I enjoy roleplaying the courageous hero attitude and dramatic combat with Swashbucklers, and the intelligence mod bonus to damage is nice. Would anyone list pros and cons of Swashbucklers too? And any roleplaying experiences you may have had.

Thanks for the help, and I am grateful for any help I receive. :smallbiggrin:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you focus on the damage, Warlocks need Hellfire Warlock + some way to reduce Con damage to keep up with, say, an NPC Warrior with a two hander and power attack. Their other invocations, though, can be quite nice, and their UMD ability allows them to use wealth very effectively. One nice trick is to dip chameleon for the revolving feat, which can be spent on an additional invocation - that way your last invocation can change daily depending on what sort of utility your party needs.

Swashbuckler... eh. You could model it with a rogue, or a factotum, or a swordsage, or even a warblade. I'd go with one of those.

Edit: Whoops, brain fart, forgot daring outlaw.

[Urpriest]

Swashbucklers are fun, but past level 3 or so their class features aren't particularly impressive, and Int to damage generally isn't enough to compete on that front. However, there is a nice solution in Daring Outlaw, a feat from Complete Scoundrel that lets Swashbuckler and Rogue levels stack for Sneak Attack. A Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 build is generally viewed as very fun to play.

[Re'ozul]

Pros:

Very little paperwork.
Useful in situations/campaigns where the days do not end with the wizards spells.
Some abilities are very spammable and have interesting additions to the usual powers.
Can craft anything. Can use anything magical usually.

Cons:

Very few abilities.
Blasting is subpar (if it was an attack action it would be much much better)
The powers come relatively late compared to what they can do.
Feat starved.
The one feat that allows them to increase abilities known has a caveat.

Further info:
Warlock information compendium (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2915.0)

[true_shinken]

Check my melee warlock handbook for info on, well, melee warlocks.

[Cornlius Grim]

Oh, okay, thanks guys. But, to the person who said the class features past level 3 for Swashbucklers, that's not entirely true. Namely, it's for dramatic things, like the Improved Flanking and Acrobatic Charge. Acrobatic Charge is mainly for dramatic purposes, such as jumping from high places onto a large monster and stabbing it with a rapier. You know, doing stuff you'd do in a movie! :smallwink: And the improved flanking is nice for hitting, considering generally magic items can greatly improve dexterity or strength to hit and for damage, if you're flankiong then the bonuses really pile on.

As for the warlock, the Eldritch blast is good because it almost always hits unless you roll a 1. And if you roll a 20 and confirm the crit, that's quite a bit of damage. And yes, the invocations are nice, especially if your DM doesn't think to use flying monsters and you have Fell Flight (24 hours flight).

Well, thanks for the help. If anyone else has any ideas, keep 'em coming. :smallsmile:

[true_shinken]

Oh, okay, thanks guys. But, to the person who said the class features past level 3 for Swashbucklers, that's not entirely true. Namely, it's for dramatic things, like the Improved Flanking and Acrobatic Charge. Acrobatic Charge is mainly for dramatic purposes, such as jumping from high places onto a large monster and stabbing it with a rapier. You know, doing stuff you'd do in a movie! :smallwink: And the improved flanking is nice for hitting, considering generally magic items can greatly improve dexterity or strength to hit and for damage, if you're flankiong then the bonuses really pile on.
What Urpriest meant is that those abilities might be cool and dramatic, but they are weak on their own. With Darin Outlaw, however, it kind of evens out.

[Rickshaw]

I've never played a warlock, but I've played more than a few swashbucklers in my time. The unfortunate truth I've discovered is that they just can't keep up with other heavy melee classes, and before long the monk or rogue in the party is going to be outclassing you.

HOWEVER - If used in place of a rogue, you can have a whole mess o' fun.

for example.

human rogue2/swashy3/bard1

at lvl 1 take the human only feat that makes all skills permanently class skills (able learner or jack of all trades... something like that), daring outlaw if you want to add some sneak attack dice, then take Bardic Knack instead of bardic knowledge to get trained in all skills. Then you have a relatively hard hitter with lots of skills and lots of levels left to specialize. throw in a level of master thrower and all five levels on invisible blade (the rapscallion feat lets you add your int to bluff checks *cough*). take seven levels of warblade to add you're int modifier to damage TWICE against flatfooted enemies. or you can keep going skill monkey and take some levels of factotum.

Anyways - what I'm saying is that I've found 20 levels of swashbuckler to be extremely lacking. It's best used as salt - a little bit can add a whole mess of flavor to your build, but too much makes it unbearable.

[Bang!]

My experience:
I played a Swashbuckler as one of my first D&D characters. It kind of sucked until level 3, and then it was just okay. Regardless of damage bonuses, the AC and damage are just low compared to other classes. And I had surprisingly bad reflexes for the archetype. I got really excited when I hit level 3 (Insightful Strike! The Big Draw to the class!), but it wasn't a huge boost. I mostly just threw knives at stuff for 1d4+6 damage, which is low for any level (the next best alternative would be the rapier for 1d6+4, which is still pretty terrible). It was worse because most enemies were undead and swarms.

I wound up multiclassing into Bard, for selfish & despicable minmax purposes :smalltongue:. Eventually, I asked my DM to let me swap all the Swashbuckler levels for Bard. He let me, and my character was suddenly much better at swashing buckles.

---

My rambling :smalltongue::
It is entirely unsupported by the printed rules, but I've always wanted to homebrew a multiclass feat like Daring Outlaw, but for Riposte (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) (a Scout variant spoilered below). It wouldn't be as powerful as Daring Outlaw, and it would fit the Swashbuckler's theme much better.

But if you're playing by the rules, Ur-Priest's idea is definitely a good one. Especially if you have one of the DMs that likes to make surprising enemies (with your cunning!) leave them flat-footed. That approach also is a lot better for the archetype than the base Swash class.


Riposte

While most scouts rely on mobility to overcome their opponents, some focus instead on taking advantage of the openings their foes provide in combat when making their own attacks.

Class: Scout.

Level: 1st.

Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain skirmish or any later improvements to that class feature.

Ability: Any time the scout attacks a foe that has made a melee or ranged weapon attack against her within the past round (whether or not the attack hit you), her attack deals an extra 1d6 points of damage. This extra damage increases by 1d6 for every four levels gained above 1st (2d6 at 5th, 3d6 at 9th, 4d6 at 13th, and 5d6 at 17th).

This extra damage applies only against living creatures that have a discernable anatomy. Undead, constructs, oozes, plants, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are not vulnerable to this additional damage. The scout must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. She can apply this extra damage to ranged attacks, but only if the target is within 30 feet.

At 3rd level, the scout gains a +1 competence bonus to Armor Class against any creature to which she has dealt riposte damage, as described above. This bonus lasts until the start of her next turn. If she deals riposte damage to more than one creature in a round, she gains this bonus against all of them; it is not limited to a single foe. This bonus improves by 1 for every four levels gained above 3rd (+2 at 7th, +3 at 11th, +4 at 15th, and +5 at 19th level).

The scout loses this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.