Most Evil Spell

[Welknair]

So... I've been trying to make a suitable Wizard to act as a recurring villain to my party. I'm going for EVIL. Like truly, downright, EVIL. As part of this, I'm selecting feats and spells that would best convey this. So I decided, what the heck? May as well ask the board's for their opinion on the most vile uses of arcane magic. I may pick out certain suggestions for the character, but general discussion on Evil spells is welcome.

Quick background on the character: He's a 15th level character, currently looking at single class Human Wizard. I'm open to suggestions on PrCs. This individual attended the Arcane University located in the Elven Kingdom. He was born with the Spellgifted (Necromancy) and as a result was ridiculed as an idiot during his teaching. He couldn't cast anything but those gross Necromancy spells until he was level two. This of course caused him to shun his colleagues and become resentful. At one point he decided to try to get them off his back by challenging someone to a duel. He picked the foremost Evoker of his class. A Grey Elf maiden by the name of Angel. She's a PC of mine. Well... Let's just say things didn't go too well for BBEG-to-be. As a result he has a lasting grudge. Much time has passed, and something is brewing in the heavens. Namely, the Evil Gods have decided to work together to convince all the mortal leaders under their sway to attack good-aligned nations at once, thus weakening the Good Gods. Well, it's now the time of year for the Tournament Arcane. Here, anyone who's anyone comes to compete and hang out (Most anyone capable of affording a 'port comes). The Evil nations have begun their assault and the Evil gods are worried that if the Tournament goes as usual, the participants will speak with one another about what's going on and someone may catch on. BBEGTB long ago swore allegiance to Vecna. He's been called in to disrupt things as much as possible, while not drawing attention to himself. Or at least managing to not get tracked won. Okay, so maybe that background's not so brief. My players are currently level 11 (About to be 12) and aren't terribly optimized. However, they are tenacious, numerous, and creative. As such, I fear that a solo villain any lower than 15 would get beaten to a pulp by them.

My immediate thoughts: Book of Vile Darkness. Plenty of nasty stuff there. Out of the spells given, I find Slow Consumption and Love's Pain to be the most Evil. I especially like the concept of coupling Love's Pain with Fell Animate Spell. Now that's Evil. Barghest's Feast from SC also seems to be a bit harsh, though not something that I'd pull on my players (Yet anyways). Oh, and Wrack from BoVD seems suitably Evil, as does that one that makes the calling card...

My current plan is for the character to use Slow Consumption on an official to get himself into the tournament unnoticed, and then cause havoc by murdering each night, leaving the same calling card each time. And he'll of course take special measures to harass the party, making sure that they lose. However, the Evil gods have a plan for them, so he isn't allowed to just kill them in their sleep.

[mootoall]

Evasculate's got some nice evil to it. And I personally like ... Body Harmonic, I think it's called? It's a bard spell, but also an excellent dramatic torture device for a captive. Cycling through each aspect of their person, destroying it bit by bit ... really, evil.

[Welknair]

Oh, I forgot to mention Avasculate and Avascular Mass from the SC. However, those are more gruesome than Evil... could certainly cause a clamor in a hurry though.

[TheDreadedThrag]

I think the big point here isn't how innately evil the spell is but how evil the spell can be. We recently had a huge discussion in my party on how to get rid of our neighbors so we could expand our school of magic. First we kidnap the wife and knock her out. erase the memory of the entire experience. Then have a simulacrum take the form of the wife and brutally and publicly murder the husband. Use the Nightmare spell to plant dreams in her head of her killing her husband. Then we release her. So basically she won't remember a damn thing, the entire town basically saw her stab her husband in the face a few times, and she had a dream about doing just that. She'll be killed of course, but even more than that how ****ed up would you feel if that happened to you?

[Safety Sword]

I think the big point here isn't how innately evil the spell is but how evil the spell can be. We recently had a huge discussion in my party on how to get rid of our neighbors so we could expand our school of magic. First we kidnap the wife and knock her out. erase the memory of the entire experience. Then have a simulacrum take the form of the wife and brutally and publicly murder the husband. Use the Nightmare spell to plant dreams in her head of her killing her husband. Then we release her. So basically she won't remember a damn thing, the entire town basically saw her stab her husband in the face a few times, and she had a dream about doing just that. She'll be killed of course, but even more than that how ****ed up would you feel if that happened to you?

Like Dr. Kimble from "The Fugitive". Really. Only difference is that you've added elements from "Face off" :smalltongue:

[Hawriel]

Mind Rape.

Is that evil enough?

[Curmudgeon]

Mordenkainen's Disjunction, because it's evil on two levels: it keeps the PCs from having nice things, and it grinds the game to a halt for (literally) hours, as each player has an incentive to look up every single magic item in their character's inventory in the hope that that item will have a higher Will save than the PC does. And then there are the arguments about what order in which to make the checks (because somebody may be carrying around cursed minor artifacts just for this spell), whether items in magical containers need to save, and what happens to the contents if those containers fail their saves.

From a metagame standard, Mordenkainen's Disjunction is the most evil spell there is.

[Ormur]

BoVD also has Eternal Torment (or torture or pain or something) that locks the subject into an eternity of unbearable pain and makes sure it can't do anything about it.

[gomipile]

Physical: Flensing.

Mental: Mindrape.

[Telonius]

Jafar from Thief of Baghdad actually had a pretty darn evil one with basically a Bestow Curse. The hero was cursed with blindness that would be cured only when his love was willingly in Jafar's arms. He followed that up with what would, in D&D terms, be a Programmed Amnesia, wiping away her memory of Ahmed...

The spell is just the tool. The real evil is taking a character and breaking the thing that's most precious to them. It might be a person they love, an ideal they uphold, a vow they honor, or their faith in their deity. Whatever it is, the really evil villain will find out, and destroy it - or better yet, have the hero destroy it himself.

[Fable Wright]

For the lower level spells, I would recommend Grim Revenge. Because forcing someone to fight their own hand is messed up. And you add level drain, as well. All in all, nasty stuff.

As the first combatant begins intoning the spell, his opponent makes his move. In a split moment seeming to bend time itself, he makes violent gesticulation and speaks in harsh, vengeful tones that make you shudder. Suddenly, the first mage ceases his spell- where his hand was, a bloody stump remains- and around his neck, like a noose, the hand is wrapped, suffocating the man as a faint fog dribbles out of the mage's mouth, seeping into the bloody hand. The paraclerics jump in, but they are too late. The man has died, strangled and drained, his body a limp husk of what it was but a moment ago. The hand was blasted to pieces by a pulse from the lead cleric's holy symbol, but the damage was done. All the while, the opponent merely grinned and chuckled, before turning back to the starting gate. You hear in your ear, in a whisper slithering into your ear unbidden, a message- "Soon it will just be us." And then the figure is gone.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

There's an issue of X-Men where a bounty hunter is hunting X-23 (a clone of Wolverine, long story) to drag her back to the Weapon X program and punish her for leaving.

Emma Frost walks out and has a little talk with her, about the bounty hunter's memories of her grandmother and how they're really the only decent thing about the bounty hunter's entire life. After she had erased them.

[petermcleod117]

So... I've been trying to make a suitable Wizard to act as a recurring villain to my party. I'm going for EVIL. Like truly, downright, EVIL. As part of this, I'm selecting feats and spells that would best convey this. So I decided, what the heck? May as well ask the board's for their opinion on the most vile uses of arcane magic. I may pick out certain suggestions for the character, but general discussion on Evil spells is welcome.

Quick background on the character: He's a 15th level character, currently looking at single class Human Wizard. I'm open to suggestions on PrCs. This individual attended the Arcane University located in the Elven Kingdom. He was born with the Spellgifted (Necromancy) and as a result was ridiculed as an idiot during his teaching. He couldn't cast anything but those gross Necromancy spells until he was level two. This of course caused him to shun his colleagues and become resentful. At one point he decided to try to get them off his back by challenging someone to a duel. He picked the foremost Evoker of his class. A Grey Elf maiden by the name of Angel. She's a PC of mine. Well... Let's just say things didn't go too well for BBEG-to-be. As a result he has a lasting grudge. Much time has passed, and something is brewing in the heavens. Namely, the Evil Gods have decided to work together to convince all the mortal leaders under their sway to attack good-aligned nations at once, thus weakening the Good Gods. Well, it's now the time of year for the Tournament Arcane. Here, anyone who's anyone comes to compete and hang out (Most anyone capable of affording a 'port comes). The Evil nations have begun their assault and the Evil gods are worried that if the Tournament goes as usual, the participants will speak with one another about what's going on and someone may catch on. BBEGTB long ago swore allegiance to Vecna. He's been called in to disrupt things as much as possible, while not drawing attention to himself. Or at least managing to not get tracked won. Okay, so maybe that background's not so brief. My players are currently level 11 (About to be 12) and aren't terribly optimized. However, they are tenacious, numerous, and creative. As such, I fear that a solo villain any lower than 15 would get beaten to a pulp by them.

My immediate thoughts: Book of Vile Darkness. Plenty of nasty stuff there. Out of the spells given, I find Slow Consumption and Love's Pain to be the most Evil. I especially like the concept of coupling Love's Pain with Fell Animate Spell. Now that's Evil. Barghest's Feast from SC also seems to be a bit harsh, though not something that I'd pull on my players (Yet anyways). Oh, and Wrack from BoVD seems suitably Evil, as does that one that makes the calling card...

My current plan is for the character to use Slow Consumption on an official to get himself into the tournament unnoticed, and then cause havoc by murdering each night, leaving the same calling card each time. And he'll of course take special measures to harass the party, making sure that they lose. However, the Evil gods have a plan for them, so he isn't allowed to just kill them in their sleep.

Some ideas borrowed from a setting I'm making you may enjoy.
Arcane magic involves dark ritual because that's what it takes to force spirits to do your will. As such, all arcane spell casters are wizards or others that study spells. None are sorcerers. The exact methods very from school to school. To cast an evokation, abjuration, illusion, conjuration, transmutation, or necromacy spell, one must draw one's own blood with a ceremonial knife, dealing 1d4 nonlethal damage per spell level. The caster level of the spell can be enhanced by dealing an additional d4 per caster level you want to add to the spell. Evokation spells require a bit of whatever element is used in the spell (if any), and necromacy requires humanoid teeth or similar sized bone fragments of humanoids to be cast towards the bodies of the dead the caster wishes to raise, one per body. Divination spells require much preparation, as they all use humanoid collar bones etched with runes that represent specific answers to questions (works as a scribe scroll feat). The bone is then heated up in a fire until it cracks (takes 1d4 rounds), and then must be removed and read (full round action). However, all divination spells are considered cast at 3 levels higher than normal. If the divination spell is one used for finding someone, the process instead requires that the caster possess something belonging to the one to be found (+0 to caster level if it is an object the subject possessed, +1 if it was an article of clothing, +2 if it is blood or hair, +3 if it is an actual body part). Telephathy and Clairvoyance related spells are unaffected. Summoning spells require a human sacrifice which has 1HD per level of the spell, plus an additional HD for each degree the caster wished to enhance the spell. Only evil outsiders, fey, and elementals may be summoned by arcane magic. For this purpose, children are considered twice their actual hit die. Enchantment spells require a small replica of the target (+1 to caster level if the doll has a bit of the target's clothing woven into it, and +2 if it has a bit of hair or blood from the target) which the caster must manipulate, and thus the enchanter must craft a different doll for each victim. However, enchantment spells cast this way are harder to resist, increasing any DCs by 5.
Familiars gained by arcane casters are always Quasits, though they can possess normal animals (and often do, providing the illusion that familiars are animal companions). Instead of normal familiar advancement (ie, more intelligence and other things over time), the familiar can be enhanced and transformed into more powerful tannar'ri as it's CR increases, requiring a human sacrifice of one HD per HD of the new demon. Demons can possess weapons or people as per the normal rules in the Eberron campaign setting.
Arcane spellcasting is a thoroughly evil source of power, though not all of it's practitioners are aware of this. Some casters have found ways to get around the evil implications of their rights by the practice of grave robbing.

[Erit]

While everybody's going on about evil applications for usual spells, I figure I'd throw one in that just sounds nightmarish and vile from its description; Bonefiddle.

[AvatarVecna]

-snip-

BURN THE FOUL NECROMANCER!!!!

Because seriously, this thread was sooooooo dead.

[Segev]

Look in Libris Mortis, under "Feats," for "Mother Cyst."

Then, go to the spells section, and look up all the spells that start with the word "Necrotic;" these are granted to you by having that feat.

In a nutshell, they let you infect people with a cyst that makes them vulnerable to necromancy in general, and specifically to some very nasty effects. Necrotic tumor is my favorite for making a just. plain. EVIL villain of a character: enslave people permanently, and then send them to plead for help from the heroes and BLOW THEM UP INTO GIBBLETS that will smack people near them for fireball-levels of damage, half of which is Vile (so very hard to heal) and opens them up to infection with cysts so you can then use these spells on THEM.

With necrotic scrying you can use your infected patsies and minions as spy cameras, and you can use command undead to take control of the undead that rise from the people you murder with the damaging spells in the line. (Look in the monsters section of Libris Mortis for the Skulking Cyst, and note that it can use necrotic cyst, so you can have them spread your infection for you.)


I particularly like having villains use children and other innocents as their meat shields and smart bombs. You can hold them hostage openly, or you can have them cling to the heroes and slow them down until you make them explode.

[Zanos]

BoVD also has Eternal Torment (or torture or pain or something) that locks the subject into an eternity of unbearable pain and makes sure it can't do anything about it.
Eternity of Torture, which pretty much does what it says on the can.

It's serious about it, too. The victim doesn't even need air, food, or water, and does not age.

[Calthropstu]

Trap the soul.

After trap the soul is cast, a new body is then created to house that soul. It
has a strength of 8, a con of 8, a dex of 14 and comes with the following caveats:

It is female regardless of your gender before.

It cannot cast any form of magic or use any magic items.

While in that body you are forced to comply with the body's creators orders.

Comes with a severe sexual addiction.

The person is then forced to work in the mage's brothel. This brothel serves demons.

Your high powered character has just been turned into a prostitute. Who services demons.

[Segev]

Trap the soul.

After trap the soul is cast, a new body is then created to house that soul. It
has a strength of 8, a con of 8, a dex of 14 and comes with the following caveats:

It is female regardless of your gender before.

It cannot cast any form of magic or use any magic items.

While in that body you are forced to comply with the body's creators orders.

Comes with a severe sexual addiction.

The person is then forced to work in the mage's brothel. This brothel serves demons.

Your high powered character has just been turned into a prostitute. Who services demons.
Um...

Most of that isn't in the realm of "a spell." It would take a lot of custom effects. I mean, it's evil, but it's not exactly "the most evil spell." It's "an evil thing to do to somebody."

Heck, you don't need trap the soul to do it: you could just magically turn them into that.

[Calthropstu]

Um...

Most of that isn't in the realm of "a spell." It would take a lot of custom effects. I mean, it's evil, but it's not exactly "the most evil spell." It's "an evil thing to do to somebody."

Heck, you don't need trap the soul to do it: you could just magically turn them into that.

Actually it can be done RAW.

The body would technically be a golem, and there are rules for binding souls to golems. I forget where.

[Name1]

Which spell is the most evil...

Eternity of Torture is pretty evil, 'cause it works until the spell is somehow stopped and is pretty horrifying. Of course, some people consider it a spell that should be [Good] due to what it does... but I'm not one of those.

Necrotic Termination destroys the soul so hard divine interference can't bring it back anymore, so that's, while not necessarily evil, definitely Evil.

Mindrape and it's brethren are pretty evil if you are creative enough. The exception being Sanctify the Wicked, which "only" channels so much [Good] into you to change your personality, though (if the associated template, prestige class and both examples are any indication) it can be argued about how much personality is left by the end of the spell.

[Krobar]

Whatever spells you end up with, ask yourself...


How many shadows can I carry in a belt of many pockets?

[FearlessGnome]

Before the paladins come charging in I just want to contribute a spell that is probably worse than the Mothercyst line: Searing Seed, a Corrupt spell from Dragon Magazine 300.

You shoot a dark beam of magical semen at the target, and if they fail their save they are pregnant with the child of an Evil Outsider (even if male). 6 to 18 seconds later they give birth (even if male) to a Half-Fiend clone of themselves. So yeah, an eighth level spell for raping people in combat.

If you are really really evil, you can pick a strong creature that is immune to ability damage (or just heal it up every time), imprison it, and keep casting this spell on them, creating one evil clone per failed save. With enough time (or help), you can build your own private army of Half-Fiend rape babies. Which is rather a lot darker than anything else I know of in DnD.

[Zanos]

Trap the soul.

After trap the soul is cast, a new body is then created to house that soul. It
has a strength of 8, a con of 8, a dex of 14 and comes with the following caveats:

It is female regardless of your gender before.

It cannot cast any form of magic or use any magic items.

While in that body you are forced to comply with the body's creators orders.

Comes with a severe sexual addiction.

The person is then forced to work in the mage's brothel. This brothel serves demons.

Your high powered character has just been turned into a prostitute. Who services demons.
http://replygif.net/thumbnail/770.gif

[Vizzerdrix]

Create crawling claw and create darkenbeast. Both are quite sinister and can net you minions as well.

[Name1]

Before the paladins come charging in I just want to contribute a spell that is probably worse than the Mothercyst line: Searing Seed, a Corrupt spell from Dragon Magazine 300.

You shoot a dark beam of magical semen at the target, and if they fail their save they are pregnant with the child of an Evil Outsider (even if male). 6 to 18 seconds later they give birth (even if male) to a Half-Fiend clone of themselves. So yeah, an eighth level spell for raping people in combat.

If you are really really evil, you can pick a strong creature that is immune to ability damage (or just heal it up every time), imprison it, and keep casting this spell on them, creating one evil clone per failed save. With enough time (or help), you can build your own private army of Half-Fiend rape babies. Which is rather a lot darker than anything else I know of in DnD.

Why must such a useful spell be Dragon Magazin? ._.
It's never gonna get approved by my DM XD

[Belzyk]

Two words. Necrotic Fimblwinter.

[Inevitability]

Trap the soul.

After trap the soul is cast, a new body is then created to house that soul. It
has a strength of 8, a con of 8, a dex of 14 and comes with the following caveats:

It is female regardless of your gender before.

It cannot cast any form of magic or use any magic items.

While in that body you are forced to comply with the body's creators orders.

Comes with a severe sexual addiction.

The person is then forced to work in the mage's brothel. This brothel serves demons.

Your high powered character has just been turned into a prostitute. Who services demons.

...

https://media.giphy.com/media/4pMX5rJ4PYAEM/giphy.gif

[Extra Anchovies]

The first spell that comes to mind is Steal Life, but two nongood 15th-level Clerics (or equivalent) could get together once each month to drain four or five points from each other and immediately spam Restoration to patch each other up, allowing them both to be forever young without hurting anyone else. I hadn't thought of that trick before coming to write this post, so I should probably make a note of it somewhere.

I don't get the all-encompassing power often attributed to Mind____ in optimization circles. It's Will-negates, SR-yes, and can be detected with a Sense Motive check and largely undone by a 5th-level spell. Anyone worth casting it on will have [mind-affecting] immunity and/or a Break Enchantment contingency.


After trap the soul is cast, a new body is then created to house that soul. It has a strength of 8, a con of 8, a dex of 14 and comes with the following caveats:

How do you move them into a new body? Trap the Soul also stores the physical body, which is reformed if the gem and/or spell is broken.


It is female regardless of your gender before.

And this is apparently meant to be a negative? :smallannoyed:


While in that body you are forced to comply with the body's creators orders.

How is this enforced? If it's via Mind____, then that's the operative spell here and you may as well not have cast TtS in the first place.


The person is then forced to work in the mage's brothel. This brothel serves demons.

Demons are spawned directly from the chaos of the Abyss, Devils begin existence as lemures formed from the empty shells of long-tortured souls, and so on. Extraplanar outsiders, or at least the alignment paragons of the Outer Planes, don't reproduce in a way even vaguely comparable to animals or humanoids. I'd say its likely if not certain that only the shapeshifting-capable outsiders would be able to engage in sexual activity of any sort. Just a nitpick, but I thought it would be worth mentioning.


Your high powered character has just been turned into a prostitute. Who services demons.

In the absence of sex-negative cultural norms, this isn't any different from, for example, working in a salt mine for demons. Better, probably, because it's not providing them with any material assistance.


Before the paladins come charging in I just want to contribute a spell that is probably worse than the Mothercyst line: Searing Seed, a Corrupt spell from Dragon Magazine 300.

You shoot a dark beam of magical semen at the target, and if they fail their save they are pregnant with the child of an Evil Outsider (even if male). 6 to 18 seconds later they give birth (even if male) to a Half-Fiend clone of themselves. So yeah, an eighth level spell for raping people in combat.

If you are really really evil, you can pick a strong creature that is immune to ability damage (or just heal it up every time), imprison it, and keep casting this spell on them, creating one evil clone per failed save. With enough time (or help), you can build your own private army of Half-Fiend rape babies. Which is rather a lot darker than anything else I know of in DnD.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/482/template.jpg

[Calthropstu]

The first spell that comes to mind is Steal Life, but two nongood 15th-level Clerics (or equivalent) could get together once each month to drain four or five points from each other and immediately spam Restoration to patch each other up, allowing them both to be forever young without hurting anyone else. I hadn't thought of that trick before coming to write this post, so I should probably make a note of it somewhere.

I don't get the all-encompassing power often attributed to Mind____ in optimization circles. It's Will-negates, SR-yes, and can be detected with a Sense Motive check and largely undone by a 5th-level spell. Anyone worth casting it on will have [mind-affecting] immunity and/or a Break Enchantment contingency.

After trap the soul is cast, a new body is then created to house that soul. It has a strength of 8, a con of 8, a dex of 14 and comes with the following caveats:

How do you move them into a new body? Trap the Soul also stores the physical body, which is reformed if the gem and/or spell is broken.



And this is apparently meant to be a negative? :smallannoyed:



How is this enforced? If it's via Mind____, then that's the operative spell here and you may as well not have cast TtS in the first place.



Demons are spawned directly from the chaos of the Abyss, Devils begin existence as lemures formed from the empty shells of long-tortured souls, and so on. Extraplanar outsiders, or at least the alignment paragons of the Outer Planes, don't reproduce in a way even vaguely comparable to animals or humanoids. I'd say its likely if not certain that only the shapeshifting-capable outsiders would be able to engage in sexual activity of any sort. Just a nitpick, but I thought it would be worth mentioning.



In the absence of sex-negative cultural norms, this isn't any different from, for example, working in a salt mine for demons. Better, probably, because it's not providing them with any material assistance.



http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/482/template.jpg

See earlier post. This body is, in effect, a golem. Turning the golem's immunity to magic into an inability to USE magic should be no problem. Golems are bound to their creators for a spefic purpise.

This is, in effect, binding a soul into a sex bot making it suffer the degredation for all eternity.

As for the rest, the gem itself would likely have to be implanted into the golem, acting as a power source.

[Extra Anchovies]

See earlier post. This body is, in effect, a golem.

I'm pretty sure homebrew is outside the purview of this thread. I suppose an Effigy could work for the physical form, but you can't stick a soul in those. Maybe some Awaken Construct/True Mind Switch shenanigans, but that's a lot of effort when you could just use PaO or other directly form-altering magic


Turning the golem's immunity to magic into an inability to USE magic should be no problem. Golems are bound to their creators for a specific purpise.

Golems are also mindless, nonliving, and animated by spirits from the Elemental Plane of Earth rather than by souls.


This is, in effect, binding a soul into a sex bot making it suffer the degredation for all eternity.
*cough*

sex-negative cultural norms
This also isn't much different from other intense physical and/or mental tortures, and if we want that we should go for, well, Eternity of Torture.

[Inevitability]

Before the paladins come charging in I just want to contribute a spell that is probably worse than the Mothercyst line: Searing Seed, a Corrupt spell from Dragon Magazine 300.

You shoot a dark beam of magical semen at the target, and if they fail their save they are pregnant with the child of an Evil Outsider (even if male). 6 to 18 seconds later they give birth (even if male) to a Half-Fiend clone of themselves. So yeah, an eighth level spell for raping people in combat.

If you are really really evil, you can pick a strong creature that is immune to ability damage (or just heal it up every time), imprison it, and keep casting this spell on them, creating one evil clone per failed save. With enough time (or help), you can build your own private army of Half-Fiend rape babies. Which is rather a lot darker than anything else I know of in DnD.

Am I the only one who is seeing a way to use the spell for Good?

Go to a fast time plane, then repeatedly cast the spell on yourself (with Favor of the Martyr blocking the constitution damage). Position yourself so that the moment your fiendish offspring (band name!) will end up on an endlessly resetting trap of Sanctify the Wicked.

Watch the kid get trapped in a gem eventually. After a year (which is only a round outside the plane) it'll emerge as a good-aligned version of you with a few extra powers. Assuming you can do this once per day (a ridiculously low estimate), you'll be creating 365 copies of yourself per round. Sure, you'll have to endure a familial fiendfight (more band names!) for a few rounds, but that's trivial when you have all your buffs and gear and your offspring has none.

So who'd commit these acts of infernal selfcest? (band names for everyone!) At first glance, the need for both [Vile] and [Sanctified] spells seems like it'd prevent anyone but the most conflicted of neutral characters from using it. However, Complete Scoundrel gave us the following beautiful class feature:


Unrestricted Conjuration: For the purpose only of casting conjuration spells, you can ignore any restrictions that forbid you from casting spells of certain alignments. In addition, regular use of conjuration spells with the evil descriptor does not threaten to change your alignment.

Searing Seed just happens to be a Conjuration spell, so you can be any kind of Good and cast it without problem. I could easily see a CG malconvoker doing this, if only to piss off the forces of evil.

[Belzyk]

Ok this is what you do. Empower Fimblwinter with Fell Drain. Your done end of the world no problem.

[FearlessGnome]

Am I the only one who is seeing a way to use the spell for Good?

Go to a fast time plane, then repeatedly cast the spell on yourself (with Favor of the Martyr blocking the constitution damage). Position yourself so that the moment your fiendish offspring (band name!) will end up on an endlessly resetting trap of Sanctify the Wicked.

Watch the kid get trapped in a gem eventually. After a year (which is only a round outside the plane) it'll emerge as a good-aligned version of you with a few extra powers. Assuming you can do this once per day (a ridiculously low estimate), you'll be creating 365 copies of yourself per round. Sure, you'll have to endure a familial fiendfight (more band names!) for a few rounds, but that's trivial when you have all your buffs and gear and your offspring has none.

So who'd commit these acts of infernal selfcest? (band names for everyone!) At first glance, the need for both [Vile] and [Sanctified] spells seems like it'd prevent anyone but the most conflicted of neutral characters from using it. However, Complete Scoundrel gave us the following beautiful class feature:



Searing Seed just happens to be a Conjuration spell, so you can be any kind of Good and cast it without problem. I could easily see a CG malconvoker doing this, if only to piss off the forces of evil.

That is fantastic. There is one problem with it, but one that can be worked around. Even if using Corrupt Conjuration spells is not an evil act for you, they still aren't on your spell list. So you need to either learn Searing Seed with the liberal interpretation of Extra Spell, have an evil caster help you out, or be a spontaneous caster (Sorcerer I guess?) with Exalted Arcanist (For Sanctified spells), Mild Depravity (taint rules) and the feat Corrupt Arcana, which doesn't require you to be evil, but does say it allows you to prepare Corrupt spells out of a scroll or spellbook without mentioning your alignment.

[Inevitability]

Ok this is what you do. Empower Fimblwinter with Fell Drain. Your done end of the world no problem.

We know: you said the same thing before. Main problem, though, is that Fimbulwinter only indirectly deals damage, not directly.

If I cast Fell Drain Burning Hands on a wooden house, those damaged by the fire won't get negative levels. The same goes for Fell Drain Fimbulwinter.

[Belzyk]

We know: you said the same thing before. Main problem, though, is that Fimbulwinter only indirectly deals damage, not directly.

If I cast Fell Drain Burning Hands on a wooden house, those damaged by the fire won't get negative levels. The same goes for Fell Drain Fimbulwinter.

Fell Drain Fimblwinter will kill anything caught in it within seconds man. Npc are drained of their con they die and raise up as wrights

[GungHo]

Wish.

Used to socially engineer either players or GMs. Causes entire worlds to be destroyed by table-flipping rage.



Though, since people bring up BOVD, I always liked that spell where the illustration was a giant spiked fist that descended from the clouds and turned a guy and his horse into a grease stain.

[Extra Anchovies]

I always liked that spell where the illustration was a giant spiked fist that descended from the clouds and turned a guy and his horse into a grease stain.

you what

http://i.imgur.com/wMDSEoK.png

that's awesome

The spell happens to be Crushing Fist of Spite. D&D is so metal sometimes.

[Inevitability]

Fell Drain Fimblwinter will kill anything caught in it within seconds man. Npc are drained of their con they die and raise up as wrights

No, because:

1. Fimbulwinter doesn't deal damage any more than Prestidigitation or Grease does. It creates circumstances that may cause damage, but the spell self isn't damaging people. This means Fell Drain is not applicable.

2. Even if it were applicable, Fimbulwinter still wouldn't be dealing damage itself, so people wouldn't gain negative levels and therefore do not become wights.

3. How are NPC's 'drained of their con'? Neither Fimbulwinter nor Fell Drain seems to be mentioning such a thing. In fact, a NPC killed by constitution damage won't even raise as a wight.

4. It's 'wights' not 'wrights', unless you mean those (https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/photo/2014/08/first-flight-with-the-wright-brothers/w02_00wright/main_1200.jpg).

[Coidzor]

Trap the soul.

After trap the soul is cast, a new body is then created to house that soul. It
has a strength of 8, a con of 8, a dex of 14 and comes with the following caveats:

It is female regardless of your gender before.

It cannot cast any form of magic or use any magic items.

While in that body you are forced to comply with the body's creators orders.

Comes with a severe sexual addiction.

The person is then forced to work in the mage's brothel. This brothel serves demons.

Your high powered character has just been turned into a prostitute. Who services demons.

There's evil, and then there's getting the feeling someone just shared spank bank material at the game table.

[Krobar]

What you need is Flash Frost / Fell Drain / Fimbulwinter.

[weckar]

Another two coppers for Love's Pain. Because why torture them when you can torture their loved ones through them?

[Calthropstu]

There's evil, and then there's getting the feeling someone just shared spank bank material at the game table.

Absolutely not.

Pure evil goes with what someone truly abhors the most. For most, crushing them for all eternity over and over again is exactly that.

Alternatives to that usage would be forcing the soul of a paladin to murder children, using the soul to power a nasty spell that wipes out a city via a colossal plague, selling it to other evil entities, binding it to a magic item, or all sorts of other shenanigans. My original post is the most evil usage for trap the soul I can possibly think of, but not the only one.

Op asked for pure evil, I gave him pure evil.

Judging from people's reactions, I succeeded. Such tactics have actually been used during warfare to subjugate an area quickly. Columbus used it on the natives, Japan used it on the Chinese during WW2, The Arabs used it on East Africa... forced rape on that kind of scale demoralizes people like nothing else does. Especially when there is literally nothing they can do about it.

You want pure evil, you're delving into the deepest darkest things imaginable. Torture, rape, murder for fun, slavery... such people do not relent on morality. And it should disturb you. Enough that you want this character dead. The best D&D villains are the ones you really want, righteously, to kill.

[Segev]

Actually, most of the objections to your plan haven't been "that's not evil," but rather "that doesn't fulfill the request for an evil spell." Worse, your plan doesn't require the spell you named, though you could write a plot using it. Your plan is entirely a narrative construction; you would need to make up rules for doing it (as you aptly did).

The other objection was that it's more an effort to shock...or possibly a display of a fetish...than "utterly evil." I mean, don't get me wrong, it's evil, but...

Gruesome and shocking aren't necessary to being evil, and are not sufficient, either. They don't make evil "more evil" by their presence. Heck, the "regardless of prior gender, she's now female" bit means it's slating more to slake some specific lust than to punish the victim. Punishing the victim would require putting them in the body that would most humiliate them. What if they're more homophobic than they are horrified by the idea of being a woman? Making them male (because most demons are male, and the female ones tend to be attractive) would be worse.

So... yeah. If the OP asked for "what is the most evil thing you can do to somebody," your plan would probably not have raised as many eyebrows. The OP asked for "the most evil spell."

I admit, I cheated and gave a feat that opens a LINE of spells, but that's within the spirit of the question.

[Zanos]

I posted that reaction image more because the situation seemed oddly specific and sexual, more than because I found the concept "too Evil."

[Calthropstu]

Another two coppers for Love's Pain. Because why torture them when you can torture their loved ones through them?

Great spell for evildoing I'll admit. Probably closest to what OP is looking for.

It's too bad they didn't port that to pathfinder.

[arrowed]

To create horror, do the following: capture person at tournament. Geas them to kill their closest friends at the tournament (or as many bystanders as possible). Before unleashing them, cast Abberate and maybe a couple of other horrific buffs on them and give them a weapon. Then unleash them on their compelled murder. Repeat as desired. Your Abberated minions will look like monsters for a good 2 and a half hours, plenty of time for them to hunt down their nearest and dearest and draw PC vengeance. First, the target kills their friend(s), and then the PCs murder the innocent victim . :smalleek:

[Calthropstu]

To create horror, do the following: capture person at tournament. Geas them to kill their closest friends at the tournament (or as many bystanders as possible). Before unleashing them, cast Abberate and maybe a couple of other horrific buffs on them and give them a weapon. Then unleash them on their compelled murder. Repeat as desired. Your Abberated minions will look like monsters for a good 2 and a half hours, plenty of time for them to hunt down their nearest and dearest and draw PC vengeance. First, the target kills their friend(s), and then the PCs murder the innocent victim . :smalleek:

Geas can be simply refused. It just makes them suffer for it.

To do that you need dominate.

[Segev]

Geas can be simply refused. It just makes them suffer for it.

To do that you need dominate.

In 3.5, technically no. I know why it looks that way, but the way it's worded, you can't refuse it. The "bad stuff" kicks in if you're prevented from complying. The spell does specify that it compels the victim to work towards the goal established.

[Inevitability]

Absolutely not.

Pure evil goes with what someone truly abhors the most. For most, crushing them for all eternity over and over again is exactly that.

Alternatives to that usage would be forcing the soul of a paladin to murder children, using the soul to power a nasty spell that wipes out a city via a colossal plague, selling it to other evil entities, binding it to a magic item, or all sorts of other shenanigans. My original post is the most evil usage for trap the soul I can possibly think of, but not the only one.

Op asked for pure evil, I gave him pure evil.

Judging from people's reactions, I succeeded. Such tactics have actually been used during warfare to subjugate an area quickly. Columbus used it on the natives, Japan used it on the Chinese during WW2, The Arabs used it on East Africa... forced rape on that kind of scale demoralizes people like nothing else does. Especially when there is literally nothing they can do about it.

You want pure evil, you're delving into the deepest darkest things imaginable. Torture, rape, murder for fun, slavery... such people do not relent on morality. And it should disturb you. Enough that you want this character dead. The best D&D villains are the ones you really want, righteously, to kill.

1. No real-world politics. I think saying 'hey, remember the time people of civilization X mass-raped people of civilization Y' counts.

2. We're not rejecting your build because we're uncomfortable with sexuality (the remote fiendrape discussed on the last page should make that obvious), but because it reads like a bad piece of erotic fanfiction. Well, that and the casual misogyny.

3. There's no way your build works by RAW while this is a thread about RAW. Your sources so far are zero, with 'it can be found somewhere but I do not know where' being the closest to proof everything you're saying is possible.

4. 'Forced rape' is a pleonasm.

[atemu1234]

Before the paladins come charging in I just want to contribute a spell that is probably worse than the Mothercyst line: Searing Seed, a Corrupt spell from Dragon Magazine 300.

You shoot a dark beam of magical semen at the target, and if they fail their save they are pregnant with the child of an Evil Outsider (even if male). 6 to 18 seconds later they give birth (even if male) to a Half-Fiend clone of themselves. So yeah, an eighth level spell for raping people in combat.

If you are really really evil, you can pick a strong creature that is immune to ability damage (or just heal it up every time), imprison it, and keep casting this spell on them, creating one evil clone per failed save. With enough time (or help), you can build your own private army of Half-Fiend rape babies. Which is rather a lot darker than anything else I know of in DnD.

Ye gods.


1. No real-world politics. I think saying 'hey, remember the time people of civilization X mass-raped people of civilization Y' counts.

2. We're not rejecting your build because we're uncomfortable with sexuality (the remote fiendrape discussed on the last page should make that obvious), but because it reads like a bad piece of erotic fanfiction. Well, that and the casual misogyny.

3. There's no way your build works by RAW while this is a thread about RAW. Your sources so far are zero, with 'it can be found somewhere but I do not know where' being the closest to proof everything you're saying is possible.

4. 'Forced rape' is a pleonasm.

Yeah, this.


My idea is a simple route. Any spell can be evil under the right circumstances, yes, even that one.

[Name1]

Any spell can be evil under the right circumstances, yes, even that one.

Nope. Sanctify the Wicked has, as far as I know, precisely one (if horrifying) application and is clearly labled [Good] despite the implications.

[atemu1234]

Nope. Sanctify the Wicked has, as far as I know, precisely one (if horrifying) application and is clearly labled [Good] despite the implications.

To be fair I said evil, not [Evil].

[Name1]

To be fair I said evil, not [Evil].

That... is a fair point^^°

[Inevitability]

That... is a fair point^^°

Actually, it's possible to cast an [Evil] Sanctify the Wicked. Simply be a willing ally of an evil Incantatrix (note that you don't need to know he's evil) and have him use Cooperative Metamagic to add Corrupt Spell to a Sanctify the Wicked you cast. There you go, one [Evil] Sanctified spell.

[Calthropstu]

Actually, it's possible to cast an [Evil] Sanctify the Wicked. Simply be a willing ally of an evil Incantatrix (note that you don't need to know he's evil) and have him use Cooperative Metamagic to add Corrupt Spell to a Sanctify the Wicked you cast. There you go, one [Evil] Sanctified spell.

you sir, are an [Evil] mastermind.

[Bohandas]

Call to stone and wooden blight slowly turn the victim into an inanimate object. Flensing skins them alive. Blindness/Deafness, Wither Limb and Feeblemind inflict permanent disabilities. Honorable mention to nightmare and symphonic nightmare

Seething eyebane also deserves a mention. It makes the eyes fill with acid and explode (spraying acid everywhere)

[Segev]

While I can think of evil applications for most spells, I admit that I can't find one for detect magic. Closest I can come is using it to facilitate an evil anti-magic police state, and even that's...risky...given that you'd have to reveal you have magic...

[Inevitability]

While I can think of evil applications for most spells, I admit that I can't find one for detect magic. Closest I can come is using it to facilitate an evil anti-magic police state, and even that's...risky...given that you'd have to reveal you have magic...

Imagine a zealotic cleric of Pelor (with Heretic of the Faith to be NE) who mistakenly believes all necromancy is evil. He casts Detect Magic at everything he encounters, and proceeds to kill any creature with necromancy spells cast on it or a necromantic magic item.

[Âmesang]

This probably requires more research on my part, but I ponder what would occur if you cast temporal stasis on someone who's standing on an Eberron lightning rail track just as a train is coming at full force? Since "no force or effect can harm" the target, I imagine things'll get messy for the train if it's not stopped in time.

Oh! Dominate people to stand atop each others shoulders and temporal stasis them into walls!

[Erit]

This probably requires more research on my part, but I ponder what would occur if you cast temporal stasis on someone who's standing on an Eberron lightning rail track just as a train is coming at full force? Since "no force or effect can harm" the target, I imagine things'll get messy for the train if it's not stopped in time.

I am unfamiliar with much of Eberron, but I see nothing in the description of Temporal Stasis that indicates the subject cannot be moved. Unless one determines that its position is part of its condition.

In that case it becomes a game of how much force the train would be hitting with. Too little, and you have a dinged-up train and a very terrified conductor. Too much, and there would in fact just be a person-shaped hole punched through every part of the train that came into contact with the Stasis subject. In either case; somewhere, somehow a Paladin has fallen and knows not why.

[Bohandas]

This probably requires more research on my part, but I ponder what would occur if you cast temporal stasis on someone who's standing on an Eberron lightning rail track just as a train is coming at full force? Since "no force or effect can harm" the target, I imagine things'll get messy for the train if it's not stopped in time.

But it doesn't say that they can't be relocated. I think it would bounce harmlessly away somewhere else like a weighted companion cube or some other non destructible videogame prop.


Oh! Dominate people to stand atop each others shoulders and temporal stasis them into walls!

There's already something kind of like that in Ravenloft, only the people are zombified instead of frozen in time.

[Âmesang]

Okay, see, now y'all've got me picturing people curling themselves up into balls before being stasis'd and used as catapult ammunition. :smallbiggrin:

[Vizzerdrix]

Oh! Dominate people to stand atop each others shoulders and temporal stasis them into walls!

Reminds me of an old anime called unico or something like that. Dude turned people into wooden blocks to build a castle or something.

[Braininthejar2]

Ok this is what you do. Empower Fimblwinter with Fell Drain. Your done end of the world no problem.

Winter is coming.





Mind Rape - you can pick pieces out of your target's mind to sculpt him into whoever you like, and make him love it.

[Efrate]

Okay, see, now y'all've got me picturing people curling themselves up into balls before being stasis'd and used as catapult ammunition.

You mean you don't already? Seige warfare corpses/people are part of most evil overlord strongholds I run. I don't stasis them though, more of an effect if they explode, especially children. Especially if you implant caltrops or somesuch inside them surgically first. While awake. Especially if their bodies are nearly rotten from plague already.

There is an armor in BoVD that you hook children to and cause those to die/be hurt whenever the wearer of said armor is hurt. Capture BSF/BSMage. Curse them a bit, greater bestow curse their saves, mind rape them, cast combat spells on this, have them go on a spree with children attached. Contingent word of recall on them or the armor when they get too weakened. Rinse repeat. Only way to stop them is kill the kids first. Make the chains out of adamantine or something so they can't be easily severed.

Make some liquid pain and spike the drinks. Or any of the other drugs in BoVD, watch as addiction tears people apart. There is a create drug spell somewhere.

[Thurbane]

Probably already been mentioned, but isn't there one in BoVD that kills all of your loved ones?

[FearlessGnome]

Probably already been mentioned, but isn't there one in BoVD that kills all of your loved ones?

Love's pain. And since almost everyone has mostly level 1 NPCs for loved ones, the spell usually kills in one hit. Or, alternatively, kidnap your enemy's biggest fan and just keep casting. Either they find an anti magic field pronto or they die without combat.

[Inevitability]

Probably already been mentioned, but isn't there one in BoVD that kills all of your loved ones?

Assuming you don't mean Love's Pain, there's an artifact that kills one of your friends/family members every week and raises them as a zombie called the Death Rock. On the upside, said zombies will be under your control and the artifact itself grants you free sorcerer casting equal to your ECL (though you can only cast necromancy spells this way).

[Thurbane]

Love's pain. And since almost everyone has mostly level 1 NPCs for loved ones, the spell usually kills in one hit. Or, alternatively, kidnap your enemy's biggest fan and just keep casting. Either they find an anti magic field pronto or they die without combat.

Assuming you don't mean Love's Pain, there's an artifact that kills one of your friends/family members every week and raises them as a zombie called the Death Rock. On the upside, said zombies will be under your control and the artifact itself grants you free sorcerer casting equal to your ECL (though you can only cast necromancy spells this way).
Thank you both.

It was Love's Pain I was thinking of, but the Death Rock is worthy of a mention too. Nice little item if you want a Commoner to suddenly be the BBEG. :smalltongue:

[Zanos]

You can also mindrape someone into loving your target, and then cast a few love's pain stacked with tons of metamagic to assassinate people from anywhere.

[Inevitability]

You can also mindrape someone into loving your target, and then cast a few love's pain stacked with tons of metamagic to assassinate people from anywhere.

Even better: Mindrape yourself to love your target, then carry the Death Rock. Not only will they die instantaneously (whereas someone suddenly taking Love's Pain damage could do things to prevent it), they also become zombies for you to command.

[Name1]

Even better: Mindrape yourself to love your target, then carry the Death Rock. Not only will they die instantaneously (whereas someone suddenly taking Love's Pain damage could do things to prevent it), they also become zombies for you to command.

...You are a genius.

[LudicSavant]

Most evil? Well, there's two ways that come to mind to approach that. Most personal suffering... in which case enchantment school options seem like the way to go (Why use Love's Pain when you can just make someone do that and worse to their loved one with their own hands?). Or most damage/suffering overall, in which case you're looking for scope (like V's Familicide spell), in which case it depends how much you wanna optimize (theoretical optimization has some serious weapons of mass destruction).

As for most Evil, well for that I have no bloody idea. I mean, Deathwatch is labeled Evil, and all that does is help you know how hurt someone is. Seems... medically useful? :smallconfused:

[Braininthejar2]

I think deathwatch is labelled evil, because it was meant specifically to show you who is already dead, and who you could deathknell to power yourself up.

[Âmesang]

This topic got me thinking about Morgoth and Húrin from The Silmarillion.

Is there a variation of scrying that can allow viewing by other targets besides the caster? 'Cause then you could hold person/monster someone and force him to view all the terrors you'd unleash upon his kin.

At least until he makes his save…

[Extra Anchovies]

This topic got me thinking about Morgoth and Húrin from The Silmarillion.

Oh, man. The curse of Morgoth frickin' rules (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaOhh1jSFUo).


Is there a variation of scrying that can allow viewing by other targets besides the caster? 'Cause then you could hold person/monster someone and force him to view all the terrors you'd unleash upon his kin.

Sense Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/senseLink.htm) with both augmentations can make another creature see and hear what you do. However, it requires a willing target, and Forced Sense Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/senseLinkForced.htm) doesn't allow the augmentations.

[atemu1234]

Oh, man. The curse of Morgoth frickin' rules (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaOhh1jSFUo).



Sense Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/senseLink.htm) with both augmentations can make another creature see and hear what you do. However, it requires a willing target, and Forced Sense Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/senseLinkForced.htm) doesn't allow the augmentations.

Unconscious is considered willing for D&D, IIRC. Which means I now want a psionic serial killer torturing people as they kill his loved ones and frame him for it. Like Double Exposure (i think that's the movie)

[lord_khaine]

Unconscious is considered willing for D&D, IIRC. Which means I now want a psionic serial killer torturing people as they kill his loved ones and frame him for it. Like Double Exposure (i think that's the movie)

Thats only in regard to healing spells and other harmless spells.

[Thurbane]

Thats only in regard to healing spells and other harmless spells.

Do you have a citation for that?


Target or Targets
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells.

Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

I don't see a stipulation there about harmless spells only?

[Berenger]

Unconscious is considered willing for D&D, IIRC.

This sentence is more disturbing than half the spell suggestions so far.

[Inevitability]

This sentence is more disturbing than half the spell suggestions so far.

And remember, we've had several rape-esque spells already... :smalleek:

[Âmesang]

No-save zone of truth?

[Inevitability]

No-save zone of truth?

That's more Lawful than Evil, though.

[Starbuck_II]

you what

http://i.imgur.com/wMDSEoK.png

that's awesome

The spell happens to be Crushing Fist of Spite. D&D is so metal sometimes.

Good spell, if only was lower level.

[Quertus]

Assuming you don't mean Love's Pain, there's an artifact that kills one of your friends/family members every week and raises them as a zombie called the Death Rock. On the upside, said zombies will be under your control and the artifact itself grants you free sorcerer casting equal to your ECL (though you can only cast necromancy spells this way).

Does related by marriage count? If so, simply institute a law that states that you, as the BBEG, may approve any marriage. Then simply declare yourself married to your enemies.


Unconscious is considered willing for D&D


This sentence is more disturbing than half the spell suggestions so far.

If this thread was "most evil rules text", I'd say we had a winner.

[Xar Zarath]

Well to answer the thread at hand, I suppose its now how evil the spell is its how evil the spell can be best used, as stated already in this thread, any spell can be evil, just a bit of creativity thrown in for good measure.

For example you could have a paladin who comes to town to find a goodly king who ensures peace and prosperity for all but maintains his existence by liberal castings of Steal Life, however a potent caveat only allows him to cast this on children so any orphans have to be sacrificed to keep the just king alive. The reason for this is that the gods decree it to be so. The paladin thus has to make a choice, save the children and potentially damn the people to misery or keep the king alive for the greater good and kill the children.

Another could be an evil dragon who asks for tribute from a nearby city. He casts Eternity of Torture as well as other torture spells (which he constantly innovates) as he is addicted to liquid pain. However the city is protected from orc bandits that keep coming to the city. Only the pain addicted dragon keeps the city safe from total destruction.

Look at the Witcher series. Sometimes for the greater good can be the most terrible evil of all.

[Inevitability]

Well to answer the thread at hand, I suppose its now how evil the spell is its how evil the spell can be best used, as stated already in this thread, any spell can be evil, just a bit of creativity thrown in for good measure.

For example you could have a paladin who comes to town to find a goodly king who ensures peace and prosperity for all but maintains his existence by liberal castings of Steal Life, however a potent caveat only allows him to cast this on children so any orphans have to be sacrificed to keep the just king alive. The reason for this is that the gods decree it to be so. The paladin thus has to make a choice, save the children and potentially damn the people to misery or keep the king alive for the greater good and kill the children.

Another could be an evil dragon who asks for tribute from a nearby city. He casts Eternity of Torture as well as other torture spells (which he constantly innovates) as he is addicted to liquid pain. However the city is protected from orc bandits that keep coming to the city. Only the pain addicted dragon keeps the city safe from total destruction.

Look at the Witcher series. Sometimes for the greater good can be the most terrible evil of all.

That's why you join team LN! Forget about this silly evil and good: just follow the rationally created rules and everyone* will be fine!

*except the ones doomed by the rational rules' nature, I guess.

[Âmesang]

Out of morbid curiosity, can you cast a permanent image of Lamb Chop and her friends singing, "This is the Song That Never Ends…" on a loop?

[Extra Anchovies]

Out of morbid curiosity, can you cast a permanent image of Lamb Chop and her friends singing, "This is the Song That Never Ends…" on a loop?

I'm pretty sure there's a type of Inevitable purposed to stop people from doing that.

[Hamste]

All the evil mentioned in this thread does not compare to the pure EVIL that is slash tongue...what? Paper cuts hurt and this is one on your tongue. That is like the definition of evil and it should be an evil act to ever cast such a spell.

[Name1]

I'm pretty sure there's a type of Inevitable purposed to stop people from doing that.

Eh, given how petty the CR 19 Inevitables purpose is... Wouldn't put it past them XD

[Inevitability]

Eh, given how petty the CR 19 Inevitables purpose is... Wouldn't put it past them XD

Preventing the entirety of divine order from collapsing is petty? :smallannoyed:

[Name1]

Preventing the entirety of divine order from collapsing is petty? :smallannoyed:

"They hunt down those that attempt to usurp the power of the gods for themselves."
That sounds to me like the only thing they do is hunt Urpriests. Someone killing a god or multiple, killing believers to reduce their power or otherwise cause instabilities concerning the gods don't seem to matter to them... Only if it's usurped.

Compare that to what their CR 17s protect (the space-time-continuum)... Yeah, in comparison, that's one hell of a specific purpose. I kow Urpriest is a good class, but creating an entire species for it is just so overkill XD

[Inevitability]

"They hunt down those that attempt to usurp the power of the gods for themselves."
That sounds to me like the only thing they do is hunt Urpriests. Someone killing a god or multiple, killing believers to reduce their power or otherwise cause instabilities concerning the gods don't seem to matter to them... Only if it's usurped.

Compare that to what their CR 17s protect (the space-time-continuum)... Yeah, in comparison, that's one hell of a specific purpose. I kow Urpriest is a good class, but creating an entire species for it is just so overkill XD


Varakhuts are the defenders of the gods.

Seems to me like this is a bit more than killing Ur Priests, especially considering the second sentence speaks about the gods' 'demise'.

Either Ur Priests are direct dangers to the gods' continued existence (in which case creating an entire species to stop them seems reasonable) or varakhuts have other duties than eliminating a single kind of caster.

[Lacuna Caster]

Another could be an evil dragon who asks for tribute from a nearby city. He casts Eternity of Torture as well as other torture spells (which he constantly innovates) as he is addicted to liquid pain. However the city is protected from orc bandits that keep coming to the city. Only the pain addicted dragon keeps the city safe from total destruction.
Ugh... these contrived examples always annoy me. It's not like this would even be a particular quandary for the average high-level D&D group- they'd kill the dragon, kill all the orcs, kill roughly three-quarters of the town-guard plus a random innkeep who stumbled on the CN rogue's nocturnal escapes and then be all quizzical when the GM explained the tribute situation afterward. Or they can just mind-rape the dragon into being a paragon of goodness. (Which is cheap and trivialising, but totally legit under the RAW.)


Reminds me of an old anime called unico or something like that. Dude turned people into wooden blocks to build a castle or something.
I was reminded more of the soul-bricks from Wayne Barlowe's inferno...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Bwz_lbNdn3g/TCnrVfxfbiI/AAAAAAAAATA/13MFO10bgGw/s1600/barlowe_holdabrick.jpg

[Inevitability]

Ugh... these contrived examples always annoy me. It's not like this would even be a particular quandary for the average high-level D&D group- they'd kill the dragon, kill all the orcs, kill roughly three-quarters of the town-guard plus a random innkeep who stumbled on the CN rogue's nocturnal escapes and then be all quizzical when the GM explained the tribute situation afterward. Or they can just mind-rape the dragon into being a paragon of goodness. (Which is cheap and trivialising, but totally legit under the RAW.)


I was reminded more of the soul-bricks from Wayne Barlowe's inferno...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Bwz_lbNdn3g/TCnrVfxfbiI/AAAAAAAAATA/13MFO10bgGw/s1600/barlowe_holdabrick.jpg

I like how the guy (girl? robot?) in the picture is directly poking several of the brick's eyes. It's a nice touch.

[trikkydik]

Just skin people alive. That could be the "calling card," you're looking for. Most people die of a heart attack, from pain. when they have their skin ripped off.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm pretty sure there's a type of Inevitable purposed to stop people from doing that.
Though, I feel that is it be CR 3 at most: as it is annoying, but nothing they would waste elites on.

[Bohandas]

"They hunt down those that attempt to usurp the power of the gods for themselves."
That sounds to me like the only thing they do is hunt Urpriests.

and Zagyg Yragerne, and that crazy wizard guy from Baldur's Gate 2

EDIT:
and Karsus.

geez. these things don't have a high success rate, do they?

[Inevitability]

and Zagyg Yragerne, and that crazy wizard guy from Baldur's Gate 2

EDIT:
and Karsus.

geez. these things don't have a high success rate, do they?

That's faulty reasoning. We only know about those who succeeded in stealing the gods' power: the dozens/hundreds/thousands/millions who tried and failed we never hear about are just random powerful mages, which every setting has had hundreds of.

[Zanos]

Karsus technically succeeded.

[Name1]

Seems to me like this is a bit more than killing Ur Priests, especially considering the second sentence speaks about the gods' 'demise'.

Either Ur Priests are direct dangers to the gods' continued existence (in which case creating an entire species to stop them seems reasonable) or varakhuts have other duties than eliminating a single kind of caster.

Thing is, the whole stopping usurpers thing came from the fiend folio too. Must have missed that... Though even then, CR 19? Couldn't they just say it's a contract between humans and deities in addition to it extending the lifespan IF they succeed and send the SRD ones? Creating an entire species still sounds like a massive overkill, especially since there are a lot of chaotic deities too.

And if they succeed, I'd say the loss of deities would not really affect much, since I think Divine Magic works without them by worshippig an ideal.

This just seems like these kinda things that exist because they do

EDIT: Which is actually what a lot of Inevitables exist for...

You know what, now that I think about it, nvm, I can see why they exist.

[Elkad]

Anything that removes free will from an intelligent creature.

So every charm/domination/etc.

[GungHo]

Karsus technically succeeded.

What's what Dire_Stirge means. We heard about him. They didn't write about the guys who became stuff on a rock. Same thing with the folks over in Pathfinder. They don't talk about the guys who just got drunk and fell into the pit... they talk about the guy who got so drunk that he fell in and came back out again as the god of getting drunk.

[Âmesang]

and Zagyg Yragerne, and that crazy wizard guy from Baldur's Gate 2

EDIT:
and Karsus.

geez. these things don't have a high success rate, do they?
You've also got Vecna and… technically I think Iuz was just born half-demon and became a demigod later? I barely remember the details, something about draining the power from (Baklunish?) spellcaster husks buried in the nearby hills.

[Jack_Simth]

Do you have a citation for that?



I don't see a stipulation there about harmless spells only?
It's a context thing. The entire paragraph where you get that sentence is about spells that restrict to willing targets. Voluntarily giving up a save is a completely different section, and doesn't have a stipulation about being unconscious.

[Thurbane]

It's a context thing. The entire paragraph where you get that sentence is about spells that restrict to willing targets. Voluntarily giving up a save is a completely different section, and doesn't have a stipulation about being unconscious.

Fair enough. I think by very definition, most spells/abilities that have a Willing Target entry are generally harmless, or least, are intended to be harmless. Creative/devious usage can make even beneficial or harmless spells dangerous in the hands of PCs.

[icefractal]

I don't get the all-encompassing power often attributed to Mind____ in optimization circles. It's Will-negates, SR-yes, and can be detected with a Sense Motive check and largely undone by a 5th-level spell. Anyone worth casting it on will have [mind-affecting] immunity and/or a Break Enchantment contingency.It's not a spell you cast on people in combat, it's something you cast on already subdued foes. Much better than Dominate Monster for obtaining minions, and you can gain vast political power with subtle use of it. Plus, being Instantaneous, it survives death/resurrection, which can have a lot of uses.

However ... *Read spell* Holy crap, I forgot it could be reversed by Wish! That means unless there's a better way of erasing memories, Simulacrum might be unstoppable!

Back on topic, it occurs to me that Mindrape is totally the choice for the evil but lazy. Just give your foes fake memories of whatever fiendish torments you want, then chuck them on a timeless demiplane to be sad.

[Name1]

Back on topic, it occurs to me that Mindrape is totally the choice for the evil but lazy. Just give your foes fake memories of whatever fiendish torments you want, then chuck them on a timeless demiplane to be sad.


I do believe that this is the intended purpose of this spell :3

[Jack_Simth]

Fair enough. I think by very definition, most spells/abilities that have a Willing Target entry are generally harmless, or least, are intended to be harmless. Creative/devious usage can make even beneficial or harmless spells dangerous in the hands of PCs.Oh, absolutely. 3.5 Polymorph, for instance, could be used to execute an unconscious foe (fish on dry land say - need a fairly high Con score to survive 70 rounds of suffocation, and many fish don't have that sort of Con) despite being Willing only. Of course, in something like 99+% of circumstances, by the time you've got a foe unconscious you've already beaten that foe, so it's largely irrelevant if you can do something mean with a Willing only spell at that point.

[Bohandas]

You've also got Vecna and… technically I think Iuz was just born half-demon and became a demigod later? I barely remember the details, something about draining the power from (Baklunish?) spellcaster husks buried in the nearby hills.

Yeah, but he wasn't stealing the power of the gods as such. Zagyg literally had the gods locked up in his basement and ascended by siphoning off their power.


Karsus technically succeeded.

I meant that the inevitables have a poor success rate.

[Zanos]

I meant that the inevitables have a poor success rate.
Oh, yeah absolutely. It doesn't help that they aren't really a challenge for anything that's powerful enough to be making a grab at divinity.

[Quertus]

Oh, yeah absolutely. It doesn't help that they aren't really a challenge for anything that's powerful enough to be making a grab at divinity.

Would the gods really allow something powerful enough to challenge thieves of divinity... To be in charge of what should have divine power... With all the logic of a modron... To exist?

[Zanos]

Would the gods really allow something powerful enough to challenge thieves of divinity... To be in charge of what should have divine power... With all the logic of a modron... To exist?
If I recall correctly, that inevitable in question is not in charge of who can have divine power. They prevent non-divine beings from attempting to become divine, but once they're actually divine they stop bothering them entirely, accepting them as part of the new order.