Early Level Bard PrCs?

[mootoall]

I'm a sucker for a good bard, but I often find that PrCing for them is the best choice to retain power. Now naturally Lyric Thaumaturge and Sublime Chord are the best for power, but you also can't enter them until tenth level. So what's there to tide me over for the five (maybe four, if I want suggestion) levels when I don't wanna be just any other bard?

[Coidzor]

The first couple of levels of Virtuoso can take you up to 10th level, and there was another PrC that was mentioned as being enterable around 8th...

Haven't heard of any that can be entered at 6th though...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Mindbender is a great dip for a Bard IMO and it is quite easy to enter it at 6th level.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Mindbender is a great dip for a Bard IMO and it is quite easy to enter it at 6th level.

Mindbender's great for a single level dip for pretty much anything arcanesave Exalted.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Mindbender's great for a single level dip for pretty much anything arcanesave Exalted.

Considering Enchantment is usually the second school to ban for pretty much any wizard (at least that is the impression I get from reading forums), not many Arcanists can enter it.

But if you are able to enter yeah, it is a great dip.

[Bang!]

I don't have the book, but I thought a level 4 Bard with a masterwork lute could enter Lyric Thaumaturge without any outrageous rules trickery.
EDIT: Scratch that. I could swear one of the staple Bard PrCs only required 7 skill ranks.:smallconfused:
EDIT AGAIN: The confused smiley looks disgusted. That's not really what I was going for.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I don't have the book, but I thought a level 4 Bard with a masterwork lute could enter Lyric Thaumaturge without any outrageous rules trickery.

...A masterwork lute wouldn't help. PrC skill requirements are always in RANKS, not in skill checks. And I believe that the requirement is 13 ranks perform. Anybody with their books handy?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

...A masterwork lute wouldn't help. PrC skill requirements are always in RANKS, not in skill checks. And I believe that the requirement is 13 ranks perform. Anybody with their books handy?

You could cheat the requirement down by one level by lighting two feats on fire to take Favored in something that gives you an extra rank in perform.

[Coidzor]

You could cheat the requirement down by one level by lighting two feats on fire to take Favored in something that gives you an extra rank in perform.

Favored in Guild? Favored in House?

What level can one enter Stormsinger and Warchanter?

[Greenish]

I'm a sucker for a good bard, but I often find that PrCing for them is the best choice to retain power.There's an exception to every rule. Unless building a white raven singer, I don't see much reason to ditch bard before level 9.

[Tyndmyr]

There's an exception to every rule. Unless building a white raven singer, I don't see much reason to ditch bard before level 9.

I would agree. Many classes benefit extensively from PrCing asap...but Bard gets a number of useful class skills, and a significant amount of Bard PrCs only advance casting or singing. A great number of general arcane PrCs also have a minimum spell level as a prereq, which hurts bards. They also tend to have d4 HD and lower skill points...so it's a tougher tradeoff.

Pretty much all my go-to PrCs for bard are practical choices at about level 9-10 or so.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Favored in Guild? Favored in House?

What level can one enter Stormsinger and Warchanter?


*snip'd because I'm lazy*


*snip'd because it was too long with two other quotes*

Actually, Favored is the feat title of the start of the chain. Cityscape, Page 61. The gist of it is, you take two extremely potentially-plot-inducing, underwhelming feats. The second lets you cheat skill rank requirements for a skill... by one level.

EDIT: So the plot inducing aspect is neutral, but I can't for the life of me figure out how else to word that bad boy with something with less negative connotation at this hour, so instead, more text to do what I am too lazy to otherwise!:smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

Actually, Favored is the feat title of the start of the chain. Cityscape, Page 61. The gist of it is, you take two extremely potentially-plot-inducing, underwhelming feats. The second lets you cheat skill rank requirements for a skill... by one level.What does that have to do with mine or Tyndmyr's posts? :smallconfused:

[Tyndmyr]

*shrug*

I've never seen a bard PrC so awesome that blowing two feats for one level of early entry is worth it.

Keep in mind that this would only work if only a single skill is limiting your level of entry. It's not uncommon to have multiple skill rank prereqs for bard prcs.

[the clumsy bard]

Only need bard 6 to enter lyric thaumaturge

max ranks you need are 9 in perform any.

[Abemad]

Spellsinger from races of faerun only requires 8 ranks in 2 skills and 2 low power feats (improved counterspell and skill focus:perform)...

The class is not really that great, but you dont really lose anything (other than the 2 feats...), and the spellsong ability seems nice... (use a spell slot to cast a lower level enchantment spell from your spell list, with a built-in spell focus). It gives some versatility.

Other than that, it increases the range of your bardic music effects.

[CapnVan]

Green Whisperer (Dragon 311) can be entered at level 5. Basically early entry for Fochlucan Lyrist.

[mootoall]

Hmm, Lyric Thaumaturge seems the way to go, especially seeing as how it can be taken again after Sublime Chord to advance its spellcasting ... What's the lowest level for Virtuoso entrance, barring shenanigans?

[Mordokai]

Level eight, I believe. You need four ranks in intimidate.

[Greenish]

Level eight, I believe. You need four ranks in intimidate.You can get Intimidate as a class skill with Martial Study for a Devoted Spirit maneuver.

[Mordokai]

I was getting impression OP was asking for straight bard. Of course, there is that option as well.

[Greenish]

I was getting impression OP was asking for straight bard. Of course, there is that option as well.No, he was asking for bard PrCs. :smalltongue:

You do get feats as a straight bard, actually.

[mootoall]

Yeah, Martial Study works great on bards, I find. So getting Intimidate as a class skill like that would be possum. What other reqs are there?

[Mordokai]

Diplomacy 4, Perform any 10, caster level 1.

You can cut back one level :smallbiggrin:

[mootoall]

Eh, not worth it probably. How's this build look: Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 3/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Lyric Thaumaturge +2 (advancing SC)/ Virtuoso +6 (SC advanced)? Are there any problems with that? Any nice things I'm missing out on? Criticisms?

[Tyger]

Eh, not worth it probably. How's this build look: Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 3/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Lyric Thaumaturge +2 (advancing SC)/ Virtuoso +6 (SC advanced)? Are there any problems with that? Any nice things I'm missing out on? Criticisms?

My understanding of the Lyric Thaumaturge caster advancement is that it only advances as if you had increased your "bard" level, so I don't think you can use it to increase your SC casting ability. It actually says "At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if you
had also gained a level in the bard class."

That said, I have seen a lot of builds which incorporate Lyric Thaumaturge after Sublime Chord, so maybe I am missing something.

[mootoall]

My understanding of the Lyric Thaumaturge caster advancement is that it only advances as if you had increased your "bard" level, so I don't think you can use it to increase your SC casting ability. It actually says "At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if you
had also gained a level in the bard class."

That said, I have seen a lot of builds which incorporate Lyric Thaumaturge after Sublime Chord, so maybe I am missing something.

Hmm, now that I read it, you're absolutely correct. Huh. And I have seen that before as well. Very interesting ...

[Coidzor]

Eh, not worth it probably. How's this build look: Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 3/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Lyric Thaumaturge +2 (advancing SC)/ Virtuoso +6 (SC advanced)? Are there any problems with that? Any nice things I'm missing out on? Criticisms?

I'd not rule it out without looking at the maneuvers available.

[mootoall]

I'd not rule it out without looking at the maneuvers available.

Well I still love ToB for a melee bard, if I were looking at that I'd probably do a Song of the White Raven thing. This is more for a singing/magic bard.

[Cog]

Hmm, now that I read it, you're absolutely correct. Huh. And I have seen that before as well. Very interesting ...
Errors in builds, if missed once, tend to get picked up and repeated, and quickly develop a life of heir own.

Notice how Locate City bomb and Commoner Railgun still get suggested.

[mootoall]

Errors in builds, if missed once, tend to get picked up and repeated, and quickly develop a life of heir own.

Notice how Locate City bomb and Commoner Railgun still get suggested.

While the Commoner Railgun is flawed, I personally disagree with the arguments about Locate City Bombs, but let's not get off topic.

Yeah, so it looks like Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 3/Virtuoso 1/ SC 2/ Virtuoso 9 is my best bet for ninth level spells and decent singing.

[Coidzor]

Errors in builds, if missed once, tend to get picked up and repeated, and quickly develop a life of heir own.

Notice how Locate City bomb and Commoner Railgun still get suggested.

Well, you've gotta admit, it's a lot more fun to say than Commoner Pony Express...


Yeah, so it looks like Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 3/Virtuoso 1/ SC 2/ Virtuoso 9 is my best bet for ninth level spells and decent singing.

X9/Virtuoso 1/SC2/Virtuoso9 has stood the test of the forums and time, I believe.

[Jack_Simth]

The Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1), while not Bard-specific, is fairly easy for a bard to enter, and has some nifties to go with it.

[dextercorvia]

Yeah, so it looks like Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 3/Virtuoso 1/ SC 2/ Virtuoso 9 is my best bet for ninth level spells and decent singing.



X9/Virtuoso 1/SC2/Virtuoso9 has stood the test of the forums and time, I believe.

I'm not sure if you realized this, but these are both 21 level builds.


The Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1), while not Bard-specific, is fairly easy for a bard to enter, and has some nifties to go with it.

+1

[Coidzor]

I'm not sure if you realized this, but these are both 21 level builds.

6+3+1+2+8=20
9+1+2+8=20

You're not taking 9 more levels of Virtuoso, you're taking it up to Virtuoso 9th.

[dextercorvia]

That would make a difference.

[Coidzor]

That would make a difference.

At least, as far as I know that's how it's written.

I've seen it with +8 Virtuoso as well probably to cut down on this kind of confusion come to think of it.

[dextercorvia]

At least, as far as I know that's how it's written.

I've seen it with +8 Virtuoso as well probably to cut down on this kind of confusion come to think of it.

That's how I usually note it when I have to split up levels in a class. So I read the 9 as a +9 without even thinking about it.

[Thurbane]

Not that either are fantastic for Bards, but Mythic Exemplar and Ruathar should be accessable at lower levels.

[Coidzor]

So, since no one mentioned anything, I went back and looked 'em up myself.

Stormsinger has two lame feats as pre-requisites but those feats are easily picked up by a human at 1st level. Full-casting though. Frostburn as I mentioned. Has some fun abilities IIRC, but I can't remember how it really figures into the grand scheme of things. So it looks like it can be entered after level 5.

War Chanter can be entered after level 6. Bardic Music uses but no casting. Complete Warrior so, there ya go.

I found this on the Wizards site. Dwarven Chanter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061128a). Easy to enter after 5th level but... requires Dwarf. Not really sure what its abilities are worth.

[mootoall]

Hmm, interesting that dwarves get their own Bard PrC with a Cha penalty ...

[Tyndmyr]

War Chanter can be entered after level 6. Bardic Music uses but no casting. Complete Warrior so, there ya go.

Yeah, I actually looked at that recently for a specialized singing build...unsure if it's worthwhile for just a few levels, but hey...it's not like there are a lot of options. Depends how much you like spellcasting, I guess.

For most people, that's probably a downer.

[mootoall]

My biggest issue with it, alongside most of the bard PrCs besides Virtuoso, is that it doesn't advance the IC *bonus*, which is a real downer for a singing specialist.

[Tyger]

My biggest issue with it, alongside most of the bard PrCs besides Virtuoso, is that it doesn't advance the IC *bonus*, which is a real downer for a singing specialist.

A Vest of Legends (DMGII) solves most of this, as it scales your bardic level for IC bonus computation up by (IIRC) 5 levels. That's in addition to some other nifty bonuses.

[Thurbane]

Hmm, interesting that dwarves get their own Bard PrC with a Cha penalty ...
Korobokuru, Desert Dwarves, Gold Dwarves and Dream Dwarves all avoid a CHA penalty...

[CapnVan]

My biggest issue with it, alongside most of the bard PrCs besides Virtuoso, is that it doesn't advance the IC *bonus*, which is a real downer for a singing specialist.

That +2 bonus (or +1 with the aforementioned vest of legends [and that is 5 levels, Tyger, just looked]) will be more than offset by the ridiculous goodness that is Sublime Chord spellcasting.

One mass bull's strength (something not even on the bard list) would more than compensate, as an example.

[mootoall]

Unless I'm going for DFI optimization with Words of Creation, in which case that +2 becomes a +4 instead of a +3 becoming a +6.

[dextercorvia]

9th level spells >>>>>>> extra +2 from WoC IC.

[mootoall]

Absolutely. Both, however, is even better, making Virtuoso advancing SC even better.

[Tyndmyr]

9th level spells >>>>>>> extra +2 from WoC IC.

That depends...usually, sure. But when we're talking about my DFI cohort in a melee heavy campaign? Negative.

[dextercorvia]

That depends...usually, sure. But when we're talking about my DFI cohort in a melee heavy campaign? Negative.

Are you saying that the party is actually more optimized because you chose advancing music over gaining Sublime Chord casting? Or, that the missing 2d6/attack could not be more than made up for, by a single spell per round?

I'm not saying you never want to do it, or that all Bards must be Sublime Chords. Heck, I think Warchanter is fun and fills a niche, even though it misses out on bard casting. But, look at the opportunity cost. Would you ask a Sorcerer to give up all of his 7-9th level spells, to have melee deal an extra 2d6 per attack? Thankfully Virtuoso allows you to have both, and that is the reason that it is so often suggested.

[Coidzor]

Hmm, interesting that dwarves get their own Bard PrC with a Cha penalty ...

Gold Dorf, mate... I think is the name.