Orb Spells?

[SlashRunner]

On these forums, I see many instances where people cite the Orb line of spells as fulfilling most of a Wizard's damage needs. {Scrubbed} I don't see what's particularly fantastic about them. They seem to be nice, but they don't seem to overshadow an entire school (they are often cited when people say why evocation is bad). Am I looking at the wrong spells? Am I missing something?

[Ezekiul]

A large part of it is that they ignore spell resistance as a ranged touch attack, and secondly, once the orbs reach 4th level they come with saves for sickness, blindness, etc. Plus they come in any damage type except physical.

[RaginChangeling]

They also can be thrown into anti-magic fields and can be metamagicked fairly easily. Not the absolute best blasting spells ever, but a combination of traits that make them better than almost all of Evocation and make it extraordinarily easy to drop.

[Dusk Eclipse]

They also can be thrown into anti-magic fields and can be metamagicked fairly easily. Not the absolute best blasting spells ever, but a combination of traits that make them better than almost all of Evocation and make it extraordinarily easy to drop.

I disagree with you, I really don't know of a better single target blasting/debuffing (take into account the rider effect) spell.

Orb of Fire is great (not many things are immune to daze, and the fire resistance is bypassed with a simple feat, Searing spell)

[arguskos]

I disagree with you, I really don't know of a better single target blasting/debuffing (take into account the rider effect) spell.
Streamers is almost certainly better if you're looking to just end somebody. Sure, it doesn't include a debuff, but who really cares?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Streamers is almost certainly better if you're looking to just end somebody. Sure, it doesn't include a debuff, but who really cares?

I thought it was worded strangely and depending on how you read it could be incredibly awesome or quite bad.

[Greenish]

I disagree with you, I really don't know of a better single target blasting/debuffing (take into account the rider effect) spell.If you're seriously into metamagic'ing the living daylights out of a spell, why not remove that last variable (attack roll) and pick Hail of Stones instead? Instantaneous conjuration, no save, no SR, no attack roll. Just "rocks fall, everybody dies".

[yugi24862]

Even with metamagic, 5d4 is rubbish damage (maxamized empowered repeat split is 60 damage first turn, 60 damage next.)

[Greenish]

Even with metamagic, 5d4 is rubbish damage (maxamized empowered repeat split is 60 damage first turn, 60 damage next.)So slap in War Mage and Fell Draining, and why not Born of Three Thunders and Energy Admixture via Snowcasting & Flash Frost.

I'm sure it's not hard to do better, but that should be a start.

[Undercroft]

I found them much more of a threat on blastifer wands. admixed twinned maximised etc etc = dead dragon (and a burnt out wand unless they used those damn infusions to not eat all the charges).
of course now i carefully regulate metamagic my artificers/wizards get (as well as access to certain spells) after that dragon fiasco

[McSmack]

Orbs Spells - because nothing is more frustrating than having your spells resisted.

I have a soft spot for the lesser orbs too. Had a warforged Artificer/Wand Adept back in the day that would dual wield wands of Lesser Orb of Fire. With Wand Focus and Wand Mastery all his wands were at +5 CL. Metamagic that up and he was pumping out some decent damage. He went through wands like butter, but crafting them was ridiculously cheap.

ah good times.

[Coidzor]

If you're seriously into metamagic'ing the living daylights out of a spell, why not remove that last variable (attack roll) and pick Hail of Stones instead? Instantaneous conjuration, no save, no SR, no attack roll. Just "rocks fall, everybody dies".

Ooo, where is this from?

[olentu]

Ooo, where is this from?

Spell compendium.

[Greenish]

Ooo, where is this from?I don't remember where it's from originally, but you can find it from Spell Compendium (page 108). It even has a picture.

[Essence_of_War]

Plus they come in any damage type except physical.

Orb of Force. There is* an orb for that :smallbiggrin:



*sort of

[SlashRunner]

Wow! Streamers looks REALLY badass (20d10 damage every time they take an action, persisting for 18 rounds (also, I downloaded Shining South as a PDF (am I the only one who uses parentheses within parentheses outside of math?))).

[grarrrg]

Wow! Streamers looks REALLY badass (20d10 damage every time they take an action, persisting for 18 rounds (also, I downloaded Shining South as a PDF (am I the only one who uses parentheses within parentheses outside of math?))).

Am I the only one who bothered to count his parentheses to make sure he used the correct number of close-parentheses?

You are not alone.


muhuhuHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[gomipile]

If you're seriously into metamagic'ing the living daylights out of a spell, why not remove that last variable (attack roll) and pick Hail of Stones instead? Instantaneous conjuration, no save, no SR, no attack roll. Just "rocks fall, everybody dies".

Because its casting time is 1 round. Not a full-round action, but a whole round of initiative, just like enlarge person or summoning spells.

[Greenish]

Because its casting time is 1 round. Not a full-round action, but a whole round of initiative, just like enlarge person or summoning spells.That's so that you can start casting it on the last round of Time Stop.

[Koury]

That's so that you can start casting it on the last round of Time Stop.

Yeah, that's a feature, not a bug. :smallamused:

[gomipile]

That's so that you can start casting it on the last round of Time Stop.

<snorts soda all over the screen>

Thanks for that.

Anyway, its maxed out at 5 dice of damage, and is a level 1 spell. My main favorite use of it is as an emergency AOE for a really low level arcanist using Alacritous Cogitation to shorten the cast time to a full round action. It metamagics well with shape spell and the like too.

[ericgrau]

They're for bypassing saves, SR, antimagic fields, energy resistance (easy to get multiple types), school needs, DR of course (that part's nothing special), etc. So really at low levels there are better spells, whereas at high levels they become problematic for bypassing everything that are supposed to be obstacles. Their original intent according to WotC employees is to provide damage plus some special effect, which no one ever talks about. So they're borked in terms of single target damage. However I wouldn't ban evocation for them, as single target damage is the last reason I'd take that school.

[Koury]

However I wouldn't ban evocation for them, as single target damage is the last reason I'd take that school.

To be fair, the list of reasons to take Evo is only about two items long. :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

Nah I find a spell every level, if not multiple for some, and the few that there are tend to be the crazy good/best ones.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To be fair, the list of reasons to take Evo is only about two items long. :smalltongue:

I wouldn't say 'two'. Forcecage, Wall of Force... and Contingency. So there's three things right there.

If you want AoE, go to Conjuration and start using Save or Lose effects. Grease, Glitterdust, or Stinking Cloud. By 3rd level spells, you've got an AoE that targets any given save.

[CapnVan]

{Scrubbed}

[SlashRunner]

I know, but it's not like it's that hard to find it. All the things I found were practically on the first page of google. The SpC was actually the first result when you google it.

[Koury]

I know, but it's not like it's that hard to find it. All the things I found were practically on the first page of google. The SpC was actually the first result when you google it.

Its still good practice to not mention online when you're doing illegal things. :smallwink:

It is weird, however, that the first result on google for "[Obvious Search Term]" is the whole book apparently hosted online. :smallconfused:

[Cog]

I know, but it's not like it's that hard to find it. All the things I found were practically on the first page of google. The SpC was actually the first result when you google it.
I'll simply link this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=59&a=1).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Streamers is almost certainly better if you're looking to just end somebody. Sure, it doesn't include a debuff, but who really cares?


Ooo, where is this from?

So, A) I'm bad with quotes this day. B) I realize these quotes are not linked, but I'm ninja'ing that noise!:smallbiggrin: Streamers is 1) An amazing debuff for when you need it (I.E., against people that can interrupt your celerity, or are, at least capable of such action in theory) 2)It's in Shining South, Page 50.

[arguskos]

So, A) I'm bad with quotes this day. B) I realize these quotes are not linked, but I'm ninja'ing that noise!:smallbiggrin: Streamers is 1) An amazing debuff for when you need it (I.E., against people that can interrupt your celerity, or are, at least capable of such action in theory) 2)It's in Shining South, Page 50.
Debuff? It's the "lolded" spell you go to when you need something to be annihilated horribly. :smalltongue:

I guess "lolded" counts as a debuff. :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

Debuff? It's the "lolded" spell you go to when you need something to be annihilated horribly. :smalltongue:

I guess "lolded" counts as a debuff. :smallbiggrin:There's no rule saying a dead character is in any way inconvenienced! :smallcool:

(Except for being unconscious due to having more non-lethal damage than hp.)

[JonestheSpy]

This has been discussed at length before, but I'm just going to chime in with the point that that any DM who allows a magically-created sphere of energy - that by any possible sane interpretation still needs magic to stay in said spherical form as it travels through the atmosphere, btw - to penetrate an anti-magic field has traded in the title Dungeon Master for Door Mat.

[Greenish]

This has been discussed at length before, but I'm just going to chime in with the point that that any DM who allows a magically-created sphere of energy - that by any possible sane interpretation still needs magic to stay in said spherical form as it travels through the atmosphere, btw - to penetrate an anti-magic field has traded in the title Dungeon Master for Door Mat.Because everyone who plays the game differently from you is doing it wrong? :smallamused:

[Edit]: Besides, it's not orb of energy, it's an orb of acid (that sometimes happens to deal fire/ice/whatever damage). :smalltongue:

[RaginChangeling]

This has been discussed at length before, but I'm just going to chime in with the point that that any DM who allows a magically-created sphere of energy - that by any possible sane interpretation still needs magic to stay in said spherical form as it travels through the atmosphere, btw - to penetrate an anti-magic field has traded in the title Dungeon Master for Door Mat.

Technically its not magically created, you summon it from the plane of fire/frost/force/acid/electricity in a convenient ball shape and huck it.

[JonestheSpy]

[Edit]: Besides, it's not orb of energy, it's an orb of acid (that sometimes happens to deal fire/ice/whatever damage). :smalltongue:


Technically its not magically created, you summon it from the plane of fire/frost/force/acid/electricity in a convenient ball shape and huck it.

And this ball of acid - or cold, electricity, etc - stays in the shape of a ball for you to throw how, without magic, exactly?

Sorry, this one strikes me as one of the most munchkiny bits of rules-lawyering I've ever seen on ye olde interwebs.

[RaginChangeling]

And this ball of acid - or cold, electricity, etc - stays in the shape of a ball for you to throw how, without magic, exactly?

Sorry, this one strikes me as one of the most munchkiny bits of rules-lawyering I've ever seen on ye olde interwebs.

Its not rules lawyering though, it was explicitly designed in the rules to work like that. Conjurations are not evocations, they pull things from 'elsewhere', real things that don't require magic to sustain them. Evocations shape raw magic into form, but they are still fundamentally magic. The Orb spells are annoying, and symptomatic of how poorly magic was designed in 3.5, but they follow the internal rules of the world very well. If I was making them, I would bump them up a spell level or two and make them an ordinary ranged attack. That would make them useful, without completely overhshadowing Evocation.

[Greenish]

Sorry, this one strikes me as one of the most munchkiny bits of rules-lawyering I've ever seen on ye olde interwebs.Perhaps. That doesn't mean that it's wrong, or that someone playing it like that is doing it wrong. Yours is not the one true way to play the game.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And this ball of acid - or cold, electricity, etc - stays in the shape of a ball for you to throw how, without magic, exactly?

Sorry, this one strikes me as one of the most munchkiny bits of rules-lawyering I've ever seen on ye olde interwebs. So you loose a bit of containment. Due to Newton's Laws of Physics, it's mostly going to stay in a blob shape anyways, less distortion caused by air friction, until it impacts an object.

So it doesn't really matter or not if the 'containment field' is existent or not, the fact that you are getting hit in the face with a couple liters of acid is going to hurt.

[JonestheSpy]

No, I do not think Orb spells and AMFs were specifically designed to work in such a manner. The bit about Conjuration and AMF's refers to things like Walls of Stone and such - things that are non-magical once they arrive. If the spell was Orb of Rock and you threw it into the field that would make sense, but there is absolutely no possible way an Orb of X Energy type (and yes, this includes acid) could stay in a convenient ball shape to be thrown at a target without magic keeping it together every moment of its existence.

So yeah, in my opinion a DM who allows such silliness and lets such an interpretation of the rules overwhelm all common sense may as well be lying down on he porch for their players to wipe their shoes on.


Perhaps. That doesn't mean that it's wrong, or that someone playing it like that is doing it wrong. Yours is not the one true way to play the game.

No, but nor is there any reason for me to point out why I think it's a completely ridiculous, abusive interpretation of the rules.



So you loose a bit of containment. Due to Newton's Laws of Physics, it's mostly going to stay in a blob shape anyways, less distortion caused by air friction, until it impacts an object.

So it doesn't really matter or not if the 'containment field' is existent or not, the fact that you are getting hit in the face with a couple liters of acid is going to hurt.

Yeah, I remember this line of argument form previous discussions. To which I say:

1) Try and throw a ball of water and we'll talk; and

2) Trying to focus just on the acid part is a distraction from just how impossible it is to apply that logic on the rest of the energy types, so unless you're arguing that Orb o' Acid should stay and the rest go then the point is moot.

[NNescio]

On a related note... where do conjurers conjure nommagical Orbs of Force from?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No, I do not think Orb spells and AMFs were specifically designed to work in such a manner. The bit about Conjuration and AMF's refers to things like Walls of Stone and such - things that are non-magical once they arrive. If the spell was Orb of Rock and you threw it into the field that would make sense, but there is absolutely no possible way an Orb of X Energy type (and yes, this includes acid) could stay in a convenient ball shape to be thrown at a target without magic keeping it together every moment of its existence.

So yeah, in my opinion a DM who allows such silliness and lets such an interpretation of the rules overwhelm all common sense may as well be lying down on he porch for their players to wipe their shoes on.

So what... acid and fire doesn't burn you unless it is contained by magic? That makes even less sense.

[Greenish]

On a related note... where do conjurers conjure nommagical Orbs of Force from?Straight from Force Dragons. That's why they're so rare.

[Jarian]

So yeah, in my opinion a DM who allows such silliness and lets such an interpretation of the rules overwhelm all common sense may as well be lying down on he porch for their players to wipe their shoes on.

http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2009-07-12/tn_1247368220924.jpg

The rules are clear on the way Conjuration (Creation) spells with an Instantaneous duration interact with the world and areas of antimagic. The fact that you don't like that does not make people who follow the rules munchkins or rules lawyers. The fact that you think a sphere of real, physical acid should be dependent on magic, while a wall of real, physical iron should not is your problem, not that of everyone else, and it does not make them wrong, or their DMs weak.

[Doc Roc]

http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2009-07-12/tn_1247368220924.jpg

The rules are clear on the way Conjuration (Creation) spells with an Instantaneous duration interact with the world and areas of antimagic. The fact that you don't like that does not make people who follow the rules munchkins or rules lawyers. The fact that you think a sphere of real, physical acid should be dependent on magic, while a wall of real, physical iron should not is your problem, not that of everyone else, and it does not make them wrong, or their DMs weak.

You win a Spirit Cookie, redeemable for one favor from the Penny Dreadful team.

[NNescio]

No, I do not think Orb spells and AMFs were specifically designed to work in such a manner. The bit about Conjuration and AMF's refers to things like Walls of Stone and such - things that are non-magical once they arrive. If the spell was Orb of Rock and you threw it into the field that would make sense, but there is absolutely no possible way an Orb of X Energy type (and yes, this includes acid) could stay in a convenient ball shape to be thrown at a target without magic keeping it together every moment of its existence.

*Whistles* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning)



So yeah, in my opinion a DM who allows such silliness and lets such an interpretation of the rules overwhelm all common sense may as well be lying down on he porch for their players to wipe their shoes on.

It's explicitly RAW. There's no room of interpretation otherwise in the text for Antimagic Field.


(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

Any other ruling is a houserule, which you are free to make, but you have no right to force that choice on another person (that is, if they don't do it your way then they are a doormat), nor do you have any standing in calling another person a "rules-lawyer" or "munchkin" if they disagree with you.


Straight from Force Dragons. That's why they're so rare.
You win a cookie. :smallbiggrin:

[Essence_of_War]

No, I do not think Orb spells and AMFs were specifically designed to work in such a manner. The bit about Conjuration and AMF's refers to things like Walls of Stone and such - things that are non-magical once they arrive. If the spell was Orb of Rock and you threw it into the field that would make sense, but there is absolutely no possible way an Orb of X Energy type (and yes, this includes acid) could stay in a convenient ball shape to be thrown at a target without magic keeping it together every moment of its existence.

So yeah, in my opinion a DM who allows such silliness and lets such an interpretation of the rules overwhelm all common sense may as well be lying down on he porch for their players to wipe their shoes on.

The spell is an Instantaneous Conjuration. There are perfectly mundane sources of energy. You are free to make it work differently in your game if you'd like but the written rules are clear as to how Instantaneous Conjuration effects are to interact with SR/AMF.

Edit: Ninja'd/PsyRogue'd/Swordsage'd

[JonestheSpy]

So what... acid and fire doesn't burn you unless it is contained by magic? That makes even less sense.

Now I think you're just deliberately missing the point. Try picking up some fire and throwing it, then tell me how that worked out for you.



The rules are clear on the way Conjuration (Creation) spells with an Instantaneous duration interact with the world and areas of antimagic.

Yes, and I explained why that's a screwup a few posts above.



The fact that you don't like that does not make people who follow the rules munchkins or rules lawyers.

In this case I kind of think it does - rules lawyering anyway, munchkin is too harsh to be a blanket statement - unless you can explain how you can make a ball of electricity and throw it without magic. I mean, that's one of the prime examples of rules lawyering: trying to justify obviously impossible actions via "the rules say I can (or don't say I can't).




The fact that you think a sphere of real, physical acid should be dependent on magic, while a wall of real, physical iron should not is your problem, not that of everyone else, and it does not make them wrong, or their DMs weak.

See my Point 2, above.

Man, this really gets a lot of reaction, doesn't it? Strange to see so many folks so defensive about this. It's not like I'm going to come to anyone's game and force them to change the way they play.

edit: As for the whole "It's totally RAW so it's fine!" argument, so's the fact that monk's aren't proficient with Unarmed Strikes and plenty of other silly things. A Wall of Stone spell has no duration - the Wall is instantaneously there, it's no longer magical, it's going to stick around till knocked down or it erodes away, it can't be affected by an AMF. An Orb is clearly magical, and it actually does have a short duration - it exists for the time period between appearing and hitting it's target, it's just not a duration measured in rounds.

[Aquillion]

Also, what we would consider unnatural things can exist in the D&D universe without counting as magic for the purposes of an AMF. A dragon, ghost, or zombie is (I think most of us would agree) unnatural, yet they do not fall apart when entering an AMF, because the D&D universe considers them 'natural'. An AMF isn't a general-purpose magic-elimination field -- it destroys certain types of magic and not others.

(For instance, it has always failed against certain force effects -- an AMF explicitly won't suppress a Wall of Force, just like it explicitly won't suppress instantiates conjurations. The wall of force is plainly magical, but it doesn't fall under whatever the AMF does to accomplish its goals -- similarly, if you conjure the ideal ball of fire from the realm of platonic forms and then throw it at someone, the rules indicate that it at least won't count as magical for AMF purposes.)

It's not so far-fetched that an orb of acid or whatever could be considered natural in the D&D universe. Certainly, it makes more sense to me than the fact that undead can enter an AMF without collapsing...


Man, this really gets a lot of reaction, doesn't it? Strange to see so many folks so defensive about this. It's not like I'm going to come to anyone's game and force them to change the way they play.There's no need to get personal, is there? You obviously care about it, too. Nobody would be here discussing the game if we didn't care about it at least a little bit!

You've got a houserule that you're very attached to, and are trying to convince us that it's the only way to play. That's your prerogative -- sure, there are some houserules that the game sorely needs -- but the fact that you saw discussion of the rules and felt compelled to leap in with your personal houserule says that you feel you have a vested interest here, too.

Most people here disagree with you, obviously, and when you say they're doing it wrong, well, you're insulting them! Look at it from our perspective; most of us tend to think that the Orb spells were meant to do what they do in terms of piercing AMFs. That's not some sneaky rules trick (we're not even playing right now! Many of us tend to be DMs more than players -- our opinion deals with how we'd want to model the game rather than anything we're trying to accomplish!)

When you say that anyone who doesn't use your personal houserule is a rules lawyer, you're accusing everyone here of being rules-lawyers! Obviously people aren't going to like that. And it doesn't make much sense, does it? We're not playing right now; we're discussing how we think the game works (and should work.)

[Koury]

Man, this really gets a lot of reaction, doesn't it? Strange to see so many folks so defensive about this. It's not like I'm going to come to anyone's game and force them to change the way they play.

If I had to guess, I'd say its your repeatedly saying DMs who allow the rules to work how they're written are dumb and wrong should stop playing. :smallsigh:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Now I think you're just deliberately missing the point. Try picking up some fire and throwing it, then tell me how that worked out for you. But if the fire was already contained and hurled, having the containment vanish is not going to cause the fire to vanish. If anything, it would likely turn it into a cone-shaped flamethrower from point of negation, centered on the vector line. Likewise with acid, being a liquid, would follow fluid dynamics, not unlike a water balloon which has popped having the water continue on the trajectory due to momentum.

This is, of course, assuming you are attempting to bring real-world physics into a discussion of a fantasy game in which you can alter reality with a single thought.


In this case I kind of think it does - rules lawyering anyway, munchkin is too harsh to be a blanket statement - unless you can explain how you can make a ball of electricity and throw it without magic. I mean, that's one of the prime examples of rules lawyering: trying to justify obviously impossible actions via "the rules say I can (or don't say I can't).Seems to me that it's you that is trying to rules lawyer, not the rest of the D&D community...


Man, this really gets a lot of reaction, doesn't it? Strange to see so many folks so defensive about this. It's not like I'm going to come to anyone's game and force them to change the way they play. Well, you are tossing around personal insults, calling anyone who doesn't believe the same thing you believe to be a doormat. Sling mud, expect to receive that which you give.

[RaginChangeling]

Man, this really gets a lot of reaction, doesn't it? Strange to see so many folks so defensive about this. It's not like I'm going to come to anyone's game and force them to change the way they play.

People get defensive when you tell them that they are 'door mats' and 'munchkins' for actually following the rules of the game and think differently than you do. Orbs make sense to me, they may be more powerful than evocation spells and I may not like them but their abilities make sense.

[NNescio]

In this case I kind of think it does - rules lawyering anyway, munchkin is too harsh to be a blanket statement - unless you can explain how you can make a ball of electricity and throw it without magic. I mean, that's one of the prime examples of rules lawyering: trying to justify obviously impossible actions via "the rules say I can (or don't say I can't).

See my point 1, above.

Or, to put it more bluntly:

Ball Lightning! BALL LIGHTNING! BALL LIGHTNING!

Also:
Naga fireballs!

Will-o'-the-wisps!

Vortex 'rings'!

Water Acid balloons!

[JonestheSpy]

You know what, you're right, I'm not sure why this issue bugs me so much. It just flies in the face of common sense, and really does just seem to be symptomatic of the kind of cheesey rules-abuse I see a lot in these parts.

But I shouldn't be using derogatory terms towards those that think it's fine, so sorry about that. And I'm apologizing here rather than going back and editing all the earlier posts as a gesture of mea culpa-tude.

[Doc Roc]

Man, this really gets a lot of reaction, doesn't it? Strange to see so many folks so defensive about this. It's not like I'm going to come to anyone's game and force them to change the way they play.

It's funny how many people react poorly to your piquant and delectable posting style, huh? A lesser man might consider this indicative of a degree of personal fault.



You know what, you're right, I'm not sure why this issue bugs me so much. It just flies in the face of common sense, and really does just seem to be symptomatic of the kind of cheesey rules-abuse I see a lot in these parts.

But I shouldn't be using derogatory terms towards those that think it's fine, so sorry about that. And I'm apologizing here rather than going back and editing all the earlier posts as a gesture of mea culpa-tude.

An insult wrapped in an apology still tastes a lot more like lemons than lemonade. You do know that you're supposed to add sugar, right? Not just salt?

[NNescio]

... I'm not sure why this issue bugs me so much. It just flies in the face of common sense, and really does just seem to be symptomatic of the kind of cheesey rules-abuse I see a lot in these parts.

Orbs of electricity, fire, liquid, ice, and sound exist in real life. Some of them can be controlled to a certain extent in laboratory settings.

Orbs of Force are a bit iffy, but one can call it plasma (similar to real-life energy shields) and leave it at that.

[Flickerdart]

"The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures)."

Just like a golem, the Orb of X is imbued with magic during its creation process (which is instantaneous), and is thereafter self-supporting as a chunk of ideal acid/fire/lightning/cold/force.

[Esser-Z]

Yes, following what the rules say in an absolutely unambiguous manner is rules abuse!

[hangedman1984]

unless you can explain how you can make a ball of electricity and throw it without magic.

But you do make it with magic, you just don't sustain it with magic

[Doc Roc]

But you do make it with magic, you just don't sustain it with magic

Would ultra-dense plasma be acceptable?

[Coidzor]

So what... acid and fire doesn't burn you unless it is contained by magic? That makes even less sense.

I think the idea is switched around, isn't it? The things have to be contained by magic so that the wizards who don't have resistance to energy don't lose their hands, since they still have to physically chuck it at the enemy, right?

[Greenish]

I think the idea is switched around, isn't it? The things have to be contained by magic so that the wizards who don't have resistance to energy don't lose their hands, since they still have to physically chuck it at the enemy, right?The wizard can't cast them while inside the anti-magic field, so the point is moot. The magic that summons them can protect the wizard's hands. And I think they're hurled by the magic too.

[hangedman1984]

But you do make it with magic, you just don't sustain it with magic

Would ultra-dense plasma be acceptable?

i don't understand what this has to do with my statement?

[gomipile]

Orbs of electricity, fire, liquid, ice, and sound exist in real life. Some of them can be controlled to a certain extent in laboratory settings.

Orbs of Force are a bit iffy, but one can call it plasma (similar to real-life energy shields) and leave it at that.

They're called point sources. Think charged particles, quantum fields, and black holes.

I.E. it's spherical and interacts with the rest of the world through a clearly defined force.

If that's too backwards, imagine a hypothetical "white hole." This would be a spherical antigravity source which forces everything away from it. If it was small enough, it may well have a very limited duration due to inverse Hawking radiation.

[faceroll]

Even with metamagic, 5d4 is rubbish damage (maxamized empowered repeat split is 60 damage first turn, 60 damage next.)

Not with nested arcane fusions. :smallsmile:


To be fair, the list of reasons to take Evo is only about two items long. :smalltongue:

Gust of Wind is like one of the best evocations in the game. It counters some of the nastiest battlefield control spells.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Going by Treatmonk's guide, evocation has some really good spell, which incidentally are not blasts, the already mentioned Gust of Wind, the great Contingency, and two of my personal favourite (at least the visual image) Howling Chain and Force Ladder.

[faceroll]

Isn't there a bard/sorc/wiz evocation that forces a will, reflex, and fort save? Failure vs. each on results in something bad happening. I think it's like daze/trip/deafened.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Isn't there a bard/sorc/wiz evocation that forces a will, reflex, and fort save? Failure vs. each on results in something bad happening. I think it's like daze/trip/deafened.

I don't recall such spell; but sounds awesome.

[faceroll]

It's in the spell compendium. I think Solo recommends it in his sorcerer guide. Ah, yeah, there it is. Great Thunderclap. Stunning, deafness, and prone with a different save vs. all those. Level 3.

[Dusk Eclipse]

It's in the spell compendium. I think Solo recommends it in his sorcerer guide. Ah, yeah, there it is. Great Thunderclap. Stunning, deafness, and prone with a different save vs. all those. Level 3.

Hmm it sounds like a [Sonic] spell, would that work with that Bard PrC which improves sonic spells (I think it is Lyric Thaumaturgist)

[faceroll]

It is [Sonic]. There are a lot of really great evocation spells on other spell lists. For some reason, there aren't that many great ones for sorc/wiz.

[Dusk Eclipse]

It is [Sonic]. There are a lot of really great evocation spells on other spell lists. For some reason, there aren't that many great ones for sorc/wiz.

Miracle, Wings of Flurry (sorc only), Aligment words are the ones that spring to mind more readily

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Gust of Wind is like one of the best evocations in the game. It counters some of the nastiest battlefield control spells.

Fortunately, it's also easily replicated by Shadow Evocation, since the nastiest battlefield control spells don't have will saves...

[faceroll]

Fortunately, it's also easily replicated by Shadow Evocation, since the nastiest battlefield control spells don't have will saves...

Unfortunately, it's a fifth level spell. You've got to play through like half your levels before you get to use it, and even then, sacrificing a 5th level spell slot at level 10 to mimic a school you banned? Doesn't seem worth it. Freedom of Movement would be more worthwhile by that level, and once 5th level slots aren't as valuable, just buy a ring of freedom of movement.

That, and there's the problem that fog effects might be objects*, and automatically succeed on their save vs. shadow evocation. 20% effectiveness from Gust of wind isn't enough to blow away any of the fogs.



*Fire is an object, for instance, so magical fog, under the D&D rule set, could be considered an object. I'm always a little iffy about spell effects and when they qualify as objects. I figure if they're legitimate targets for Shrink Item, then they're an object.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Unfortunately, it's a fifth level spell. You've got to play through like half your levels before you get to use it, and even then, sacrificing a 5th level spell slot at level 10 to mimic a school you banned? Doesn't seem worth it. Freedom of Movement would be more worthwhile by that level, and once 5th level slots aren't as valuable, just buy a ring of freedom of movement.

That, and there's the problem that fog effects might be objects*, and automatically succeed on their save vs. shadow evocation. 20% effectiveness from Gust of wind isn't enough to blow away any of the fogs.



*Fire is an object, for instance, so magical fog, under the D&D rule set, could be considered an object. I'm always a little iffy about spell effects and when they qualify as objects. I figure if they're legitimate targets for Shrink Item, then they're an object.

There's this really cute little build in which you end up with spells even more real when you DO disbelieve in them...

[faceroll]

There's this really cute little build in which you end up with spells even more real when you DO disbelieve in them...

Yeah, at like level 15. A SCM is just another illusionist until about 13th level, and even then, most of the SCM tricks are abusing a FR caster PrC.

[Aquillion]

Orbs of Force are a bit iffy, but one can call it plasma (similar to real-life energy shields) and leave it at that.Inexplicably, many Force effects bypass AMFs anyway. So you could just rely on that.

(But actually, why does Orb of Force even exist? Usually, Force effects are Evocation, aren't they? Conjuration effects usually conjure things 'from' somewhere, but there's no elemental plane of force to draw that from...)

[tiercel]

Count me amongst those who are annoyed at the idea of a "magic immune" monster (e.g. golem) inside an antimagic field being mindlessly blasted to death by magic.

Count me amongst those who, furthermore, don't see the need for there to be a mechanic to make so-called "Tier 1" (or even "Tier 2" etc) full-casting classes, who by definition already Win Everything Instantly and Forever in D&D, bypass an entire defense mechanic.

There's a reason many people run campaigns with house rules. But setting all that aside, hey, if your game is open season RAW non-Core material, it is certainly immediately advantageous to your caster PC to include a whole slew of no-SR options as you get into the levels where you start more commonly encountering SR as a "defense." (Of course, likely by those levels you've already "won the game", but hey.)

[Koury]

Count me amongst those who are annoyed at the idea of a "magic immune" monster (e.g. golem) inside an antimagic field being mindlessly blasted to death by magic.

Count me amongst those who, furthermore, don't see the need for there to be a mechanic to make so-called "Tier 1" (or even "Tier 2" etc) full-casting classes, who by definition already Win Everything Instantly and Forever in D&D, bypass an entire defense mechanic.

There's a reason many people run campaigns with house rules. But setting all that aside, hey, if your game is open season RAW non-Core material, it is certainly immediately advantageous to your caster PC to include a whole slew of no-SR options as you get into the levels where you start more commonly encountering SR as a "defense." (Of course, likely by those levels you've already "won the game", but hey.)
SR, even in just core, is very much a mediocre defence. Akin to AC on a mage.

[Wings of Peace]

Can't we all just leave poor Evocation alone and play a Shadowcraft Mage? :smallsmile:

[Thurbane]

Yes, following what the rules say in an absolutely unambiguous manner is rules abuse!
*cough* Drown healing *cough* :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

*cough* Drown healing *cough* :smalltongue:Well, that's not a very useful abuse, given that there's no RAW way to stop drowning. Three rounds and you'll be waiting for a resurrection. :smallamused:

[hangedman1984]

Inexplicably, many Force effects bypass AMFs anyway. So you could just rely on that.

(But actually, why does Orb of Force even exist? Usually, Force effects are Evocation, aren't they? Conjuration effects usually conjure things 'from' somewhere, but there's no elemental plane of force to draw that from...)

Draws it from the same place that the maze spell sends you???

[Etrivar]

(But actually, why does Orb of Force even exist? Usually, Force effects are Evocation, aren't they? Conjuration effects usually conjure things 'from' somewhere, but there's no elemental plane of force to draw that from...)

Mage Armor is another conjuration [Force] spell, so they do have a precedent. Not that I agree it should be a conjuration, but they probably thought it was ok based on that.

[Koury]

Mage Armor is another conjuration [Force] spell, so they do have a precedent. Not that I agree it should be a conjuration, but they probably thought it was ok based on that.

You're giving them an awful lot of credit, I feel. :smallamused:

[Etrivar]

You're giving them an awful lot of credit, I feel. :smallamused:

Like I said, I do not agree with them, but when they were sitting around the table, talking about 'how can we screw over evocation even more?' and 'how can we give conjuration even more unnecessary power?', they had to find some way to justify it to themselves.

Atleast I hope they did, otherwise they are simply willing to say "SCREW LOGIC" without any justification, and about the only way I get to sleep at night is believing that they had some rationale.

[HalfDragonCube]

The assassin spell Stop Heart can technically heal, although if you are at -9 hit points and the only person around to heal you is an assassin, you may as well begin drowning yourself now.

[Esser-Z]

*cough* Drown healing *cough* :smalltongue:
I knew somebody would do something like that no matter how I phrased it.

I meant, as of course everyone knew, following what is written as to how something worked. Following the information given in the right spot, as with every other spell, not looking at technicalities. :smalltongue:

[Gavinfoxx]

I always thought of Orbs of Force as being made of something like Riverine.

[Aquillion]

Count me amongst those who are annoyed at the idea of a "magic immune" monster (e.g. golem) inside an antimagic field being mindlessly blasted to death by magic.

Count me amongst those who, furthermore, don't see the need for there to be a mechanic to make so-called "Tier 1" (or even "Tier 2" etc) full-casting classes, who by definition already Win Everything Instantly and Forever in D&D, bypass an entire defense mechanic.

There's a reason many people run campaigns with house rules. But setting all that aside, hey, if your game is open season RAW non-Core material, it is certainly immediately advantageous to your caster PC to include a whole slew of no-SR options as you get into the levels where you start more commonly encountering SR as a "defense." (Of course, likely by those levels you've already "won the game", but hey.)The Orb spells aren't really terribly powerful, compared to other things a Wizard can do. Honestly, if I'm DMing a group and I want the Wizards to not overpower anything, I'd rather have them memorizing a few Orb spells just in case they meet an AMF rather than more Disintegrates, Teleports and the like (which can probably be used to beat things in an AMF anyway if you're clever.)

Consider the typical Wizard spells: Broken most of the time, useless against an AMF. Is this fun? For anyone? Most of the time the wizard is having fun and everyone else is bored; occasionally, if they hit an AMF (and the wizard can't think of a clever strategy to work around it), the wizard is bored and everyone else is having fun.

That sucks. The Orb spells, by comparison? They're not overpowering. They let everyone have fun all the time.

(Now, if you're Tippy or something you can make a build to exploit them, but that's optimization -- you could do that with almost anything. Out of the box, orbs are relatively weak even given their advantages. They're versatile and reliable blasting, but they're still just blasting. If a wizard wants to use Orbs a lot, let them use them into an AMF -- they're not going to overshadow the fighter just by throwing around basic orbs.)

[Xetheral]

The Orb spells, by comparison? They're not overpowering. They let everyone have fun all the time.

In general I'd agree, but against creatures that are are designed to be difficult to hurt by both mundane AND magical means, an Orb-of-Force-wielding mage can dominate the encounter, at least in low-op parties.

[Talya]

Almost the entire evocation school is made redundant by the Shadow Evocation line, not Orb of [energy].

[Killer Angel]

Almost the entire evocation school is made redundant by the Shadow Evocation line, not Orb of [energy].

Yeah, but counting only on SE can be painful, if the character starts a campaign from low levels and grows during adventures: you had to wait, to cast a spell that you could have 2 or 4 levels before.
Orb is a dirty trick, to give conjuration school even more goodness... which, frankly, it doesn't need.

Orbs aren't broken, but imo are overpowered.

[Talya]

Yeah, but counting only on SE can be painful, if the character starts a campaign from low levels and grows during adventures: you had to wait, to cast a spell that you could have 2 or 4 levels before.
Orb is a dirty trick, to give conjuration school even more goodness... which, frankly, it doesn't need.

Orbs aren't broken, but imo are overpowered.

Conjuration is good (and yes, orbs can fill a gap if you ban evocation early on)...but i think Conjuration is overrated. Not to say I would ever ban it, but I don't think I'd play a specialist conjurer. A lot of its spells are on cleric/druid lists, or at least reasonable facsimiles of them are. As LogicNinja once said, if a wizard ever finds themselves casting a spell on a divine list somewhere, they fail.

[Killer Angel]

...but i think Conjuration is overrated. Not to say I would ever ban it, but I don't think I'd play a specialist conjurer. A lot of its spells are on cleric/druid lists, or at least reasonable facsimiles of them are.

...
you can have a point, here.

[Qwertystop]

There's this really cute little build in which you end up with spells even more real when you DO disbelieve in them...

How does that work? And what does a greater than 100% real thing mean anyway?

[Mystic Muse]

How does that work? And what does a greater than 100% real thing mean anyway?

It means that if you succeed on your save, it's actually more effective. I think there was a summary of it that goes something like this.

Troops: AH! The fire, it burns!
commander: You weak minded fools, this is just an illusion and -OH GOD! IT BURNS HOTTER THAN THE REAL THING!

I don't recall how it works though.

[Boci]

How does that work?

I believe it works by stacking effects that increase the level to which you can heighten as spell, since that is what the reality %-tage of the maneuvre is based off.

[gomipile]

How does that work? And what does a greater than 100% real thing mean anyway?

Shadowcraft Mage. The prestige class lets you turn many illusion spells into a shadow conjuration/evocation type effect that mimics a conjuration or evocation spell. The %reality of the spell is 10% per spell level. The kicker is that the capstone of the PrC adds 20% reality to these spells.

[Doc Roc]

Almost the entire evocation school is made redundant by the Shadow Evocation line, not Orb of [energy].

I would argue against this a little, but that's another matter entirely. I am of the feeling that orbs are just interesting spells. In the context of 3.x, they're hardly over-powered until your start running M^3 builds.

I'm one of the CO proponents of the generalist or divination specialist. I think that banning evoc makes you jump through some contortions that aren't always possible, and delays your access to one or two of the really critical spells around.

As for conjuration, I think it's far stronger than most people realized, but I'd be more likely to go for a specialist transmuter.

[Nohwl]

I would argue against this a little, but that's another matter entirely. I am of the feeling that orbs are just interesting spells. In the context of 3.x, they're hardly over-powered until your start running M^3 builds.

I'm one of the CO proponents of the generalist or divination specialist. I think that banning evoc makes you jump through some contortions that aren't always possible, and delays your access to one or two of the really critical spells around.

As for conjuration, I think it's far stronger than most people realized, but I'd be more likely to go for a specialist transmuter.

what's a M^3 build?

[Doc Roc]

what's a M^3 build?

MetaMagic Mitigation.

[arguskos]

I would argue against this a little, but that's another matter entirely. I am of the feeling that orbs are just interesting spells. In the context of 3.x, they're hardly over-powered until your start running M^3 builds.
And that must be understood in the context of 100% foot-to-the-floor optimization. In that arena, the level you play on, Doc, yeah, orbs ain't no thang. In smaller, less "lolwut", arenas, the ability of the orbs to breach through basically everything with good damage and strong rider effects can be a bit overwhelming. Not broken, but just good. If they're "too good" is up to each table (at mine, they're on the razor's edge, but likely are in the "if they cause issues, they're gone; otherwise, have a blast guys" camp, like most of 3.x's spell catalogue).


I'm one of the CO proponents of the generalist or divination specialist. I think that banning evoc makes you jump through some contortions that aren't always possible, and delays your access to one or two of the really critical spells around.
This produces two questions in my mind.

First, how does the generalist account for the missing spells that a focused specialist can rip out. Breadth is nice, but depth is too.

Second, with the diviner, why would anyone bother when Spontaneous Divination exists? That does the diviner's job for him. Is it merely the spell slot angle?


As for conjuration, I think it's far stronger than most people realized, but I'd be more likely to go for a specialist transmuter.
Agreed, in some respects.

On the topic of evocation, since I'm here and may as well share, I've always been a big fan of keeping it. It has far more good spells than most people realize. The school that always struck me as getting the short end of the stick is Abjuration. It does one thing, and though it does it well, everyone else has at least two things, while poor abjuration just defends stuff. Kinda unfun.

[Nohwl]

MetaMagic Mitigation.

i was kind of hoping you had a build or something based off of mage's magnificent mansion, but it didn't sound like something that would be really powerful.

[Boci]

i was kind of hoping you had a build or something based off of mage's magnificent mansion, but it didn't sound like something that would be really powerful.

Its not that it wouldn't be powerful, its that there is no material for it. A build based off that spell would be a full caster capable of casting that spell. If you really want to devote yoursrlf to that spell you could take arcane thesis (MMM), but thats about it.

[Doc Roc]

Its not that it wouldn't be powerful, its that there is no material for it. A build based off that spell would be a full caster capable of casting that spell. If you really want to devote yoursrlf to that spell you could take arcane thesis (MMM), but thats about it.

Actually, twinned echoing MMM could be funny as heck.

[Gadora]

Actually, twinned echoing MMM could be funny as heck.

Could we toss on invisible spell, just for the lulz.

[Greenish]

Actually, twinned echoing MMM could be funny as heck.I hereby dub this build Mansionmancer!

[Aquillion]

Now I want to make an MMM-based PRC. Hrm. What tricks would be interesting to do with MMM, given that we'd be thinking of writing stuff for a PRC?

Maybe ways of forcing other people into your MMM and trapping them there.

Conjuring mansions into the real world and dropping them on people?

Making lethal MMM deathtraps to hide in or to lure others into? Maybe blending your MMM entrance into the real world (like, as a shop entrance or whatever) and allowing those you want inside to see/use it? Hrm.

The ability to relocate a MMM after you cast it, possibly with your party inside (substituting MMM for teleport.)

Getting some summoned creatures when you cast MMM, as part of the deal -- you cast MMM, the doors open, and your summoned creatures pour out.

[Koury]

So wait, Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz had taken levels in a prestige class that we are just now considering making? And OHKO'd a Wicked Witch using its capstone?

[faceroll]

(Now, if you're Tippy or something you can make a build to exploit them, but that's optimization -- you could do that with almost anything. Out of the box, orbs are relatively weak even given their advantages. They're versatile and reliable blasting, but they're still just blasting. If a wizard wants to use Orbs a lot, let them use them into an AMF -- they're not going to overshadow the fighter just by throwing around basic orbs.)

Some things are better optimized than others. Orbs optimize very well. Even n+1 DCs on save-or-dies aren't that great if you're against a golem or something with mindblank or deathward.

The orbs biggest weakness is requiring a ranged touch attack roll, which can be gamed with a wish/limited wish to auto hit. Orbs ignore SR and AMFs. It's easy metamagic'd into 9000+ damage, and to overcome resistance/immunity.

Without that level of optimization, though, I agree. It's pretty weak. I prefer solid fog or tentacles.

[kardar233]

The main reason I'm advising our Wizard in this campaign to not ban Evocation is for all those straight-up damaging AoEs; it's a piracy-based campaign, meaning lots of low-level mooks with low reflex saves just asking to be fireballed. Also, the single-target damage is easily taken care of with my Warblade.

[Qwertystop]

Now I want to make an MMM-based PRC. Hrm. What tricks would be interesting to do with MMM, given that we'd be thinking of writing stuff for a PRC?

Maybe ways of forcing other people into your MMM and trapping them there.

Conjuring mansions into the real world and dropping them on people?

Making lethal MMM deathtraps to hide in or to lure others into? Maybe blending your MMM entrance into the real world (like, as a shop entrance or whatever) and allowing those you want inside to see/use it? Hrm.

The ability to relocate a MMM after you cast it, possibly with your party inside (substituting MMM for teleport.)

Getting some summoned creatures when you cast MMM, as part of the deal -- you cast MMM, the doors open, and your summoned creatures pour out.

DO IT!
(Sounds AWESOME!)

[OracleofWuffing]

Getting some summoned creatures when you cast MMM, as part of the deal -- you cast MMM, the doors open, and your summoned creatures pour out.
Verbal component, "Smithers! Release the hounds!"

[HalfDragonCube]

The main reason I'm advising our Wizard in this campaign to not ban Evocation is for all those straight-up damaging AoEs; it's a piracy-based campaign, meaning lots of low-level mooks with low reflex saves just asking to be fireballed. Also, the single-target damage is easily taken care of with my Warblade.

Just use things like sculpt spell on Hail of Stone. A 30-ft cone of falling rocks that ignore most things already is fun to watch.

Just try to resist the urge to say 'Rocks fall, everybody dies' as the verbal component.

[SlashRunner]

This went on WAAAAY longer than I expected.

[Doc Roc]

This went on WAAAAY longer than I expected.

These things happen. But we did get the Hermetic Order Of The Majestic Halfway House out of it.

[mootoall]

I would use inspiration from Howl's Moving Castle, too. The book, not the anime.

[Aquillion]

Unfortunately, since MMM is 7th level, you can't have more than a five-level PRC based on it (well, seven, technically, but who does seven-level PRCs? And if it were a seven-level PRC, it would totally suck for Sorcerers.)

Hrm. Unless you grant access to it early, I guess; it's not like it's a spell that would be overpowering to get at 5th level.

[Killer Angel]

The orbs biggest weakness is requiring a ranged touch attack roll, which can be gamed with a wish/limited wish to auto hit.

Well, a quickened true strike is far cheaper (altough not 100% certain to hit), and usable on lower levels.

[NNescio]

Unfortunately, since MMM is 7th level, you can't have more than a five-level PRC based on it (well, seven, technically, but who does seven-level PRCs? And if it were a seven-level PRC, it would totally suck for Sorcerers.)

Hrm. Unless you grant access to it early, I guess; it's not like it's a spell that would be overpowering to get at 5th level.

Iot7fV?

(Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil)

Then again, it has "seven" in its name, and it fits the rainbow theme.

[Greenish]

There are other PrCs with non-standard amount of levels. Sovereign Speaker is 9 levels, Moonspeaker is 12 levels (and thus the longest [pre-epic] official PrC that I know of).

[Cog]

Unearthed Arcana did Bard, Paladin, and Ranger up as 15 level PrCs.

[Greenish]

Unearthed Arcana did Bard, Paladin, and Ranger up as 15 level PrCs.Oh right, those.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh right, those.

I wouldn't count them, as technically they are more of a variant rule as opposed to a true PrC in my opinion.

[Nohwl]

There are other PrCs with non-standard amount of levels. Sovereign Speaker is 9 levels, Moonspeaker is 12 levels (and thus the longest [pre-epic] official PrC that I know of).

void disciple from complete divine has 13 levels.

[faceroll]

Well, a quickened true strike is far cheaper (altough not 100% certain to hit), and usable on lower levels.

Depends if your opponent quaffs a potion of Scintillating Scales.

[Provengreil]

i know this part of the discussion is over, but i just gotta ask:

if an orb of fire can penetrate an AMF, then it's nonmagical fire, no? ignoring how it keeps in shape rather than puffing out or flaring into a cone, doesn't nonmagical fire only do d6 damage?

force is not plasma, it is force, an inherently magical...well, force designed to apply itself in ways that do what the spell wants, in this case damage. if it's magical, how does it penetrate AMFs?

orb of sound? it's a wave, without a magical bound how can it not suddenly become a much less damaging AOE upon losing the magical containment?

Orb of cold is either a chunk of ice, which would deal bludgeoning damage instead of cold, so it's a sphere of cold air. again, why does this not dissipate at least partially?

orb of electricity? you guys mention ball lightning, but it is only called that because we've yet to figure out a damn thing about it. normal electricity takes the shortest path to the ground, meaning that as soon as raw, unbound electricity hits you've got a minor lightning strike...straight down.

orb of acid. this is the one most used, as the acid has no reason to stop moving towards the target and even if it stops being a ball, it keeps momentum and a big splash hits the caster anyway. but if the duration of the spell is truly instantaneous, it doesn't go anywhere, thus it has a duration of long enough to reach the target, but leaves afterward, as is evidenced by the lack of ongoing acid damage like in the acid arrow spell. as such, why would it not "wink out" like a summoned creature?

and the biggest question of all, except for the acid, this kind of spell seems to belong squarely in evocation, so what's it doing as conjuration anyway?

[Qwertystop]

i know this part of the discussion is over, but i just gotta ask:

if an orb of fire can penetrate an AMF, then it's nonmagical fire, no? ignoring how it keeps in shape rather than puffing out or flaring into a cone, doesn't nonmagical fire only do d6 damage?

force is not plasma, it is force, an inherently magical...well, force designed to apply itself in ways that do what the spell wants, in this case damage. if it's magical, how does it penetrate AMFs?

orb of sound? it's a wave, without a magical bound how can it not suddenly become a much less damaging AOE upon losing the magical containment?

Orb of cold is either a chunk of ice, which would deal bludgeoning damage instead of cold, so it's a sphere of cold air. again, why does this not dissipate at least partially?

orb of electricity? you guys mention ball lightning, but it is only called that because we've yet to figure out a damn thing about it. normal electricity takes the shortest path to the ground, meaning that as soon as raw, unbound electricity hits you've got a minor lightning strike...straight down.

orb of acid. this is the one most used, as the acid has no reason to stop moving towards the target and even if it stops being a ball, it keeps momentum and a big splash hits the caster anyway. but if the duration of the spell is truly instantaneous, it doesn't go anywhere, thus it has a duration of long enough to reach the target, but leaves afterward, as is evidenced by the lack of ongoing acid damage like in the acid arrow spell. as such, why would it not "wink out" like a summoned creature?

and the biggest question of all, except for the acid, this kind of spell seems to belong squarely in evocation, so what's it doing as conjuration anyway?

It supposedly summons a bit of the elemental or quasielemental plane of whatever the orb is made of.

[Nohwl]

i think the idea behind orb of fire and spells like it is that you take pure fire (or whatever) from the plane of fire and throw it at the target and it disappears shortly afterward. it's not ordinary fire that you're throwing at the target.

orb of acid is supposed to be about 3 inches in diameter according to the spell description (most orb spells say they are the same as that one). i don't know what you mean by a big splash hits the caster.

[Boci]

i know this part of the discussion is over, but i just gotta ask:

if an orb of fire can penetrate an AMF, then it's nonmagical fire, no? ignoring how it keeps in shape rather than puffing out or flaring into a cone, doesn't nonmagical fire only do d6 damage?

Non-magical fire at the temperature of a torch does, yes.


force is not plasma

Can you prove that? I'm not sure how well force has been defined in D&D.


orb of sound? it's a wave, without a magical bound how can it not suddenly become a much less damaging AOE upon losing the magical containment?

Honestly do not know, I never paid attention in physics, but chemistry was interesting.


Orb of cold is either a chunk of ice, which would deal bludgeoning damage instead of cold, so it's a sphere of cold air. again, why does this not dissipate at least partially?

Could be a heavily endothermix reactions between exotic particles.


orb of electricity? you guys mention ball lightning, but it is only called that because we've yet to figure out a damn thing about it. normal electricity takes the shortest path to the ground, meaning that as soon as raw, unbound electricity hits you've got a minor lightning strike...straight down.

Statically charged matter?


orb of acid. this is the one most used, as the acid has no reason to stop moving towards the target and even if it stops being a ball, it keeps momentum and a big splash hits the caster anyway. but if the duration of the spell is truly instantaneous, it doesn't go anywhere, thus it has a duration of long enough to reach the target, but leaves afterward, as is evidenced by the lack of ongoing acid damage like in the acid arrow spell. as such, why would it not "wink out" like a summoned creature?

The acid stays, but it is so reactive that it is all gone in the first round.


and the biggest question of all, except for the acid, this kind of spell seems to belong squarely in evocation, so what's it doing as conjuration anyway?

Probably to allow conjuration to do energy damage. Making the orbs evocation would help balance out the schools. Conjuration doesn't need them.

[HalfDragonCube]

void disciple from complete divine has 13 levels.

True necromancer has 14 levels IIRC.

[Cog]

Probably to allow conjuration to do energy damage. Making the orbs evocation would help balance out the schools. Conjuration doesn't need them.
That they're conjuration is the justification for them working in AMFs in the first place - Evocation is about flashy magic that goes boom, Conjuration is about summoning and creating things, and the intent behind the orbs is that they're made of created/summoned material. Somebody once proposed making them dual-school spells, in both Evocation and Conjuration, and I do like that idea.

[faceroll]

That they're conjuration is the justification for them working in AMFs in the first place - Evocation is about flashy magic that goes boom, Conjuration is about summoning and creating things, and the intent behind the orbs is that they're made of created/summoned material. Somebody once proposed making them dual-school spells, in both Evocation and Conjuration, and I do like that idea.

Instantaneous conjurations. Here's the relevant rule, from Antimagic Field, in bold:


An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.

Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field, though Mage's Disjunction might.

Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

Arcane Material Component
A pinch of powdered iron or iron filings.

[Provengreil]

Non-magical fire at the temperature of a torch does, yes.


i don't remember reading rules in d&d about fire having multiple temperatures. either it's fire or it isn't.



Can you prove that? I'm not sure how well force has been defined in D&D.


force is any influence that causes a free body to undergo a change in speed, a change in direction, or a change in shape. in this case, it'd be the change in shape bit, pushing your body inwards like a cannonball. the force effect does not push the air to push on you, it just pushes on you.



Honestly do not know, I never paid attention in physics, but chemistry was interesting.



home science! throw a drop of water into a still pan of water. the ripples do what sound does in an uncontained environment.



Could be a heavily endothermix reactions between exotic particles.


technically that works, but the way other cold damage tends to be done in d&d makes me not wanna buy it.



Statically charged matter?


something charged to that degree would still jump to the ground.



The acid stays, but it is so reactive that it is all gone in the first round.


shaky when compared to other spells, but good enough .



Probably to allow conjuration to do energy damage. Making the orbs evocation would help balance out the schools. Conjuration doesn't need them.

yeah. considering i'd houserule them to evocation if it ever came up in my group, its kind of a moot point, i just wanted to ask.

[Greenish]

i don't remember reading rules in d&d about fire having multiple temperatures. either it's fire or it isn't.So now RAW trumps physics? But wasn't your line of argument based on said physics, instead of rules?

[faceroll]

i don't remember reading rules in d&d about fire having multiple temperatures. either it's fire or it isn't.

[Fire] is a descriptor for [damage]. So [damage value] is [damage], while it is either [fire], or [cold] or [pointy stick].

[Kylarra]

Technically they are all acid balls that deal [type] damage anyway.

[Nohwl]

home science! throw a drop of water into a still pan of water. the ripples do what sound does in an uncontained environment.

something charged to that degree would still jump to the ground.


ok, i'm not good with physics, so you'll have to explain a few things to me.

light is a wave and a particle, right? so, it has some similar properties to sound. now, what you are describing with the water is pretty much the same as what happens when you turn on a light. the light goes everywhere. if you take a laser, the light doesn't spread out nearly as much. why can you not have the orb of sound act like a laser?

with the orb of electricity, it takes time for it to drop to ground, doesn't it? some small amount of time, yes, but it takes time. why can the orb not be moving fast enough to hit the target before it hits ground?

[SITB]

Why are you trying to shoehorn physics in D&D? Ice Orbs are made from ice elementals and Lightning Orbs are made from lightning elementals. (http://mimir.net/essays/planarphysics.html)

[faceroll]

Why are you trying to shoehorn physics in D&D? Ice Orbs are made from ice elementals and Lightning Orbs are made from lightning elementals. (http://mimir.net/essays/planarphysics.html)

No, that's making up rules. Orbs work in AMFs because they are instantaneous conjurations, and those are explicitly called out in the text of AMF that those effects still occur.

I prefer moving the spells to Evocation if I am going to make up a rule. That explanation is needlessly silly and runs into other problems. If they're creatures, antilife shell should hedge them out, tentacles should grapple them, they should provoke AoOs when moving through threatened squares, etc.

[SITB]

No, that's making up rules. Orbs work in AMFs because they are instantaneous conjurations, and those are explicitly called out in the text of AMF that those effects still occur.

I prefer moving the spells to Evocation if I am going to make up a rule. That explanation is needlessly silly and runs into other problems. If they're creatures, antilife shell should hedge them out, tentacles should grapple them, they should provoke AoOs when moving through threatened squares, etc.

I wasn't trying to make a point about the RAW/RAI interpretation of the rules, but rather to point that an orb made from solid 'Cold' is feasible fluff wise because cold as an element exists in D&D lore.

[Coidzor]

The cohesion or wrapper that forms whatever they're made out of into the orb shape in the first place is intact and proof against the AMF for the same reasons that the orbs themselves don't wink out when they go through them. That's why they behave that way.

[dextercorvia]

The cohesion or wrapper that forms whatever they're made out of into the orb shape in the first place is intact and proof against the AMF for the same reasons that the orbs themselves don't wink out when they go through them. That's why they behave that way.

This is a really good explanation. Everyone assumes that magic has to hold it together. Why can't it just be conjuring a non-magical [Fire] Balloon?

[Doc Roc]

I always assumed they were bits of the elemental and para-elemental planes, and that the conjuring wizard was just smart enough not to TOUCH THEM. He's. A. Wizard. Wizards don't handle icky acid or searing fire. Not really if they can help it. They get the universe to roll up its sleeves and tend to them like a colicky baby.