Tactless Player Playing Tactician

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I'm currently playing a character who, do to impressive Knowledge skills, high Int and ranks in Knowledge (War) and Battle, has somewhat evolved into a role as a tactician.

The issue arises that I do not possess a tactical mindset.
I am currently seeking books (D&D rulebooks or otherwise), movies , TV shows or websites that would help me to grasp and learn medieval/ancient tactics.

Please refrain from suggesting the Art of War or the Tactica of King Leo the VI. I have read both, but I am looking more for formations that I can bring up in character during planning for good RP.

Simply because I myself lack the capacity does not mean I want to relinquish a role my character would relish in, so all help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Corrik]

If you have a player who is a veteran D&D player, really good at tactics, or has a lot of knowledge on the subject, and especially if they metagame a bit, then there is an easy way to go about it. Collaborate with that player and have him/her help you formulate a plan or tell you their tactics, than you roleplay it out by having your character explain or initiate the plan.

[Gnaeus]

It isn't everything you are looking for, but the link in my sig (Post 3, An optimizer's guide to combat) is my attempt at a very basic strategy guide.

[LordBlades]

I'm not sure what kind of tactics are you referring to TBH. Are you interested in:

a) realistic medieval era battle tactics, the kind of thing medieval-ish armies in your fantasy world would use when facing each other?
b) actual out of game tactical decisions that would help you win encounters?

For a), I'd recommend googilng info about important wars/battles. The 100 year war and the Crusades are a good place to start. Wikipedia alone should have enough to get you started on medieval battle tactics.

For understanding the basic concepts of b), I'd advise playing some RTS, TBS and MOBA games (Warcraft 3, Heroes of Might&Magic series, DotA and any of the clones will probably do). These will get you familiarized with the importance of Crowd Control, Buffs/Debuffs, Disables and the like. Then all you have to do is apply the same concepts to D&D spells.

[Greenish]

I'm currently playing a character who, do to impressive Knowledge skills, high Int and ranks in Knowledge (War) and Battle, has somewhat evolved into a role as a tactician."Know (War)" is a subset of Know (History) (which is incidentally why all ToB classes have it as a class skill).

[Edit]: Which reminds me: look up Heroes of Battle. That's the book you're wanting to read.

[Canarr]

A friend of mine has a textbook... the title was something like, infantry through the ages. Had a lot of interesting background, tactics and similar stuff; of course, you had to periodically ask yourself: "And what would happen, if a fireball detonated *here*?"

Basically, if you pick up any book on small-unit tactics, that should give you the basics: communications, perimeter defenses, high ground vs. low ground... Depending on the kind of campaign you play - especially the degree of magic - I'd suggest something between the American Civil War and WW II. For less magic, go further back in time.

If you're really into reading, and interested in a bit of theoretical background to warfare, try Carl von Clausewitz' Vom Kriege (On War); he takes a somewhat philosophical on war and politics, but also delves into strategy of large-scale warfare: supply lines, moving and positioning entire armies, forested vs. open terrain, flanking maneuvers, attack vs. defense... Also, he's very quotable ;)

Hope that helps a bit.

[Seracain]

Here is a checklist to generate tactical options. It might or might not be useful to you, but will hopefully provide some insight into one way to tactically gauge a situation.


First off, knowledge is key to sound tactical decisions.

1 Know your team: their abilities, strengths and weaknesses.

2 Know your enemy, learn and observe what you can of their abilities, strengths and weaknesses.

3 Consider how you can learn these things if you don't know. It's hard to make sound tactical decisions without knowing what is happening and what is a possibility.


Then use this info to create options.

4 What actions/positions can a team member take to increase their or another members strength(s)?

5 What actions/positions can a team member take to decrease their or another members weakness(es)?

6 What actions/positions can a team member take to exploit an enemy's weakness?

7 What actions/positions can a team member take to reduce an enemy's strength?


Finally choose the option that will maximise advantage or minimise damage. Which option to take when you have more than one takes practice and experience.



Of course there is far more that can be considered, but this should give you a start and allow you to formulate tactics for any situation. Providing this method clicks with you.

[Tyndmyr]

All tactics stem from resource understanding and utilization.

At a minimum, you should know your team and what they prefer to do. Draw up plans that utilize their strengths. Gather information about adversaries whenever possible, and target their weaknesses.

Always, always, have backup plans for when things go wrong. Make preparations for when things go wrong. Nothing says tactical genius like being crazy prepared, and being able to effortlessly deal with something going horribly wrong as a result.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

It isn't everything you are looking for, but the link in my sig (Post 3, An optimizer's guide to combat) is my attempt at a very basic strategy guide.

Not really what I'm looking for, but a good guide. Thanks.


A friend of mine has a textbook... the title was something like, infantry through the ages. Had a lot of interesting background, tactics and similar stuff; of course, you had to periodically ask yourself: "And what would happen, if a fireball detonated *here*?"

Basically, if you pick up any book on small-unit tactics, that should give you the basics: communications, perimeter defenses, high ground vs. low ground... Depending on the kind of campaign you play - especially the degree of magic - I'd suggest something between the American Civil War and WW II. For less magic, go further back in time.

If you're really into reading, and interested in a bit of theoretical background to warfare, try Carl von Clausewitz' Vom Kriege (On War); he takes a somewhat philosophical on war and politics, but also delves into strategy of large-scale warfare: supply lines, moving and positioning entire armies, forested vs. open terrain, flanking maneuvers, attack vs. defense... Also, he's very quotable ;)

Hope that helps a bit.

Excellent! Very helpful and I will look into it when I get the chance. This is something I may read on my own, regardless of the campaign.


"Know (War)" is a subset of Know (History) (which is incidentally why all ToB classes have it as a class skill).

[Edit]: Which reminds me: look up Heroes of Battle. That's the book you're wanting to read.

I will look into Heroes of Battle, thank you. However, Knowledge (War) and Battle are skills from Oriental adventures. They were suggested by my DM for some flare and because of the tactician role my character now plays.


If you have a player who is a veteran D&D player, really good at tactics, or has a lot of knowledge on the subject, and especially if they metagame a bit, then there is an easy way to go about it. Collaborate with that player and have him/her help you formulate a plan or tell you their tactics, than you roleplay it out by having your character explain or initiate the plan.

I'm currently using my aforementioned Knowledge (War) and Battle skills to gather insight from my DM, who is far more knowledgeable in these fields than I am. However, I do greatly prefer coming up with my own strategies than simply copying what somebody else says. I feel more connected to my character when I'm voicing my own ideas rather than somebody else's.


I'm not sure what kind of tactics are you referring to TBH. Are you interested in:

a) realistic medieval era battle tactics, the kind of thing medieval-ish armies in your fantasy world would use when facing each other?
b) actual out of game tactical decisions that would help you win encounters?

For a), I'd recommend googilng info about important wars/battles. The 100 year war and the Crusades are a good place to start. Wikipedia alone should have enough to get you started on medieval battle tactics.

I'm looking for A. I am interested in learning some old school tactical formations. They do not need to necessarily be useful, but they would be great for RP and it helps if they are actually effective.

On top of that, I am also looking for some tactical knowledge that helps with issue that my character will encounter in the future (ie: defending a fortress during a siege, how to succeed when performing a siege on someone else's fortress, how to even the odds when greatly outnumbered etc.)


All tactics stem from resource understanding and utilization.

At a minimum, you should know your team and what they prefer to do. Draw up plans that utilize their strengths. Gather information about adversaries whenever possible, and target their weaknesses.

Always, always, have backup plans for when things go wrong. Make preparations for when things go wrong. Nothing says tactical genius like being crazy prepared, and being able to effortlessly deal with something going horribly wrong as a result.



First off, knowledge is key to sound tactical decisions.

1 Know your team: their abilities, strengths and weaknesses.

2 Know your enemy, learn and observe what you can of their abilities, strengths and weaknesses.

3 Consider how you can learn these things if you don't know. It's hard to make sound tactical decisions without knowing what is happening and what is a possibility.


Then use this info to create options.

4 What actions/positions can a team member take to increase their or another members strength(s)?

5 What actions/positions can a team member take to decrease their or another members weakness(es)?

6 What actions/positions can a team member take to exploit an enemy's weakness?

7 What actions/positions can a team member take to reduce an enemy's strength?

Finally choose the option that will maximise advantage or minimise damage. Which option to take when you have more than one takes practice and experience.

To respond to both of you, I do preform a great deal a research before attacking an enemy myself and I know the strengths and weaknesses of my own party quite well. I also have some idea of the resources available to me, which, more often than not, is next to nothing. I know that preparation breeds victory.
The issues arise mostly because, a) I often do not have a back-up plan and b) Most encounters with larger or stronger groups are not planned, they occur at the whim of the DM and not myself, where I am often challenged with a group I know nothing about and can have prepared against. This is why I am seeking advice.

Thank you very much to everyone for their contributions. They have been most helpful. Please keep them coming.

[Tyndmyr]

One of my backup plans is always an escape option. Because the first key to success is not dying. Be they contingent teleports or expedition retreat, no level is too low to start considering ways to run away.

This is generally after a list of other plans, but it does come up.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

One of my backup plans is always an escape option. Because the first key to success is not dying. Be they contingent teleports or expedition retreat, no level is too low to start considering ways to run away.

This is generally after a list of other plans, but it does come up.

I agree with you. IT becomes far more difficult when you consider that we are often assailed by opponents with access to high magic as well.

However, this brings to light the possibility that I may want to create a list a tactics for different situations.

Do you have any methods of escape you find particularly useful/effective?

[Tyndmyr]

Anticipate Teleport is particularly useful for avoiding being surprised.

I typically keep a laundry list of spells permanencied on me. Persist is also fantastic. Rings of counterspelling are also great. Dispel Magic should be in at least one of them(greater dispel is also fantastic).

I also currently have my cohort wearing a necklace from MiC that automatically heals people who drop below -10 hp. It specifies that this happens rapidly enough to save them from death. Another excellent choice is the Necklace of Second Chances(also MiC), which allows you to rewind time to the start of your turn. These sorts of things scream tactical genius, by allowing you to avoid nasty fates.

Once I get contingency, I typically have a contingent teleport set up to wisk me away from trouble if need be, and have teleports either prepared(or ready to convert via Belt of the Wide Earth(MIC)) to evac the team if necessary. Note that at lower levels, things like dimension door are generally adequate to escape.

Join the local church of magic, as per Complete...champion was it? Getting a high rank is trivially easy. It grants you 1/day counterspell with no readied action or prepared spell needed. This, and maxed spellcraft, which every caster should have, grants you the ability to nix the showstopper spells.

Also, pack a few dispels at all times. I favor the dispel from one of the completes(arcane or mage, I forget). Level 3, so same as a core dispel, but every consecutive time it's cast on the same target, you get a +2 bonus to the CL check. When you pack multiple dispels, this is sometimes a worthwhile option.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Anticipate Teleport is particularly useful for avoiding being surprised.

I typically keep a laundry list of spells permanencied on me. Persist is also fantastic. Rings of counterspelling are also great. Dispel Magic should be in at least one of them(greater dispel is also fantastic).

I also currently have my cohort wearing a necklace from MiC that automatically heals people who drop below -10 hp. It specifies that this happens rapidly enough to save them from death. Another excellent choice is the Necklace of Second Chances(also MiC), which allows you to rewind time to the start of your turn. These sorts of things scream tactical genius, by allowing you to avoid nasty fates.

Once I get contingency, I typically have a contingent teleport set up to wisk me away from trouble if need be, and have teleports either prepared(or ready to convert via Belt of the Wide Earth(MIC)) to evac the team if necessary. Note that at lower levels, things like dimension door are generally adequate to escape.

Join the local church of magic, as per Complete...champion was it? Getting a high rank is trivially easy. It grants you 1/day counterspell with no readied action or prepared spell needed. This, and maxed spellcraft, which every caster should have, grants you the ability to nix the showstopper spells.

Also, pack a few dispels at all times. I favor the dispel from one of the completes(arcane or mage, I forget). Level 3, so same as a core dispel, but every consecutive time it's cast on the same target, you get a +2 bonus to the CL check. When you pack multiple dispels, this is sometimes a worthwhile option.


These are all excellent ideas. I will have to keep them in mind. However, it is important to note my character has very limited spell casting. Currently he is only capable of cast two second level spells per day.

[Gauntlet]

The Ring of Spell-Battle (also MiC) is one of the best items for tactical combat in the game- it's quite expensive, though. It gives you awareness of all spells being cast nearby, which is very handy for working out what kind of enemies you're fighting. It also lets you redirect a spell 1/day, which is not to be underestimated (No, that Disjunction is targeting you, wizard).

[Mando Knight]

I'm looking for A. I am interested in learning some old school tactical formations. They do not need to necessarily be useful, but they would be great for RP and it helps if they are actually effective.
Tactics do not exist in a vacuum. Pike formations guarding riflemen or archers arose because of heavy cavalry. Heavy cavalry was used due to feudalism as well as the sheer power and mobility horses had. The Greek hoplites and phalanxes were aided by Greece's mountainous terrain. Macedonian phalanxes expanded the principles to apply them to more open-field combat.

What is important is that you know the principles behind the tactics, so you can apply those to the situation. Knowing that the battle of Agincourt was won by the English longbow is worthless unless you realize that they also capitalized on the weaknesses of the French cavalry to maximize the longbow's effectiveness. That is the reason to read and study Sun Tzu. Not to see how the ancient Chinese fought, but to learn how to use the circumstances to your advantage.

[Greenish]

Knowing that the battle of Agincourt was won by the English longbowWasn't Agincourt won by the French mud? ;)

[Tibbaerrohwen]

The Ring of Spell-Battle (also MiC) is one of the best items for tactical combat in the game- it's quite expensive, though. It gives you awareness of all spells being cast nearby, which is very handy for working out what kind of enemies you're fighting. It also lets you redirect a spell 1/day, which is not to be underestimated (No, that Disjunction is targeting you, wizard).

Good item to get when wealth is more readily available. Thanks.


Tactics do not exist in a vacuum. Pike formations guarding riflemen or archers arose because of heavy cavalry. Heavy cavalry was used due to feudalism as well as the sheer power and mobility horses had. The Greek hoplites and phalanxes were aided by Greece's mountainous terrain. Macedonian phalanxes expanded the principles to apply them to more open-field combat.

What is important is that you know the principles behind the tactics, so you can apply those to the situation. Knowing that the battle of Agincourt was won by the English longbow is worthless unless you realize that they also capitalized on the weaknesses of the French cavalry to maximize the longbow's effectiveness. That is the reason to read and study Sun Tzu. Not to see how the ancient Chinese fought, but to learn how to use the circumstances to your advantage.

I agree entirely with you. However, as stated, I am looking for formation information simply for RP purposes, not application.
Generally, at least in the current campaign I'm playing, such information would be next to useless in an actual combat setting.
Bending circumstances to our advantage is something my group and I already do, but tactics and plans I can use in certain situations are something I would like to learn so that I can offer prepared alternatives in random and unexpected encounters.

[Jolly]

Real world tactics are less than useless for DnD. First, because they take into account things DnD does not, and seconf because they utterly lack many of the things DnD uses.

You need to learn how to utilize your groups strengths, anticipate your opponents weaknesses, and vice versa. Which, while it is a form of tactics, has nothing whasoever to do with the tactics employed in real life.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Real world tactics are less than useless for DnD. First, because they take into account things DnD does not, and seconf because they utterly lack many of the things DnD uses.

You need to learn how to utilize your groups strengths, anticipate your opponents weaknesses, and vice versa. Which, while it is a form of tactics, has nothing whasoever to do with the tactics employed in real life.

I agree that many real world tactics are not very useful in D&D due to what are seen as factors in reality vs. D&D. However, they still have some use, especially with certain DM's. As well, as previously noted, much of this is for RP purposes, so that when a roll is being used to determined large scale battles my character can order a certain maneuver or formations.

[Jolly]

If it's just RP then the actual effectiveness is irrelevant. "I order them to do X cool sounding thing." DM: "it works!"

[Tibbaerrohwen]

If it's just RP then the actual effectiveness is irrelevant. "I order them to do X cool sounding thing." DM: "it works!"

True enough, but our DM will take into accounts and not simply rolls to decide how well were doing. As such, I would like some realistic tactics and plans.

[Taelas]

The most important thing when studying tactics is to understand the principles involved.

Know the terrain. Know your enemy. Know yourself. It may sound like philosophical nonsense, but it is appropriate. If you know why your enemy does what he does, you can anticipate his actions.... which lets you lay traps. If you ever have an inkling that your enemy knows what you're planning, do something different.

Chess and go are good games to play to learn tactics as well.

[Canarr]

Well, if your GM likes to spring encounters on you (and, what GM doesn't?), then preparing tactics is difficult. However, in that case: have your character study monsters.

Work with your GM to establish "typical" tactics used by the various races and creatures, and have your character find sources to study them. That way, your character has a useful focus for his studies, and you as a player have knowledge you can use in RP: "Okay, the hobgoblin archers occupy the high points, that's standard... they have two heavy infantry formations coming towards us, front and rear, that's also standard... but they haven't occupied the rock formation to the left of us, that would give us cover and a good defensive position - which means they have a wizard or cleric standing by to pepper that area with spells as soon as we take position there, and he would be... over there, that's the best vantage point! Wizard, prepare a counterspell; archers, aim at that position!"

That sort of stuff. The more detailed you work that out, the more RP opportunities it'll give you.

[Jolly]

I admit that fantasy "tactics" are a pet peeve of mine. Having had occasion to actually study and real military tactics in real life, seeing the idiotic things authors etc do never fails to irritate me.

[Yukitsu]

One of my backup plans is always an escape option. Because the first key to success is not dying. Be they contingent teleports or expedition retreat, no level is too low to start considering ways to run away.

Not dying is the key to repeat successes. Succeeding is the only key required if you only have to do it once. :smalltongue:

The actual important tactical skills are actually all the knowledges with monsters in them. If you can say "That thing is weak vs. fire" the tactical decision of "use fire" becomes obvious. A lot of people say "well duh" to this sort of thing, then utterly fail to capitalize on it, often because they can't justify using fire against something they don't know is weak vs. it.

Make sure you know all of your party member's abilities that they are willing to mention. Write notable ones down on a little sheet, then organize each character into a sort of archetype. Whenever you get into an encounter, think "gee, an X would be great in position Y doing Z right now" then see if you can implement that. For example, bog standard party of rogue, wizard, fighter, cleric facing off vs. a dragon because you want to steal his horde, it'd be great if sneaky thief guy were just ganking the gems and treasure while the fighter defended against the dragon's attacks and the cleric kept the dragon in place, after which the wizard would be great in creating a barrier between the party and pursuing dragon, before you all get back together and escape.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Well, if your GM likes to spring encounters on you (and, what GM doesn't?), then preparing tactics is difficult. However, in that case: have your character study monsters.

Work with your GM to establish "typical" tactics used by the various races and creatures, and have your character find sources to study them. That way, your character has a useful focus for his studies, and you as a player have knowledge you can use in RP: "Okay, the hobgoblin archers occupy the high points, that's standard... they have two heavy infantry formations coming towards us, front and rear, that's also standard... but they haven't occupied the rock formation to the left of us, that would give us cover and a good defensive position - which means they have a wizard or cleric standing by to pepper that area with spells as soon as we take position there, and he would be... over there, that's the best vantage point! Wizard, prepare a counterspell; archers, aim at that position!"

That sort of stuff. The more detailed you work that out, the more RP opportunities it'll give you.

Good call. I do have pretty good knowledges, so this shouldn't be too hard to implement.


Not dying is the key to repeat successes. Succeeding is the only key required if you only have to do it once. :smalltongue:

The actual important tactical skills are actually all the knowledges with monsters in them. If you can say "That thing is weak vs. fire" the tactical decision of "use fire" becomes obvious. A lot of people say "well duh" to this sort of thing, then utterly fail to capitalize on it, often because they can't justify using fire against something they don't know is weak vs. it.

Make sure you know all of your party member's abilities that they are willing to mention. Write notable ones down on a little sheet, then organize each character into a sort of archetype. Whenever you get into an encounter, think "gee, an X would be great in position Y doing Z right now" then see if you can implement that. For example, bog standard party of rogue, wizard, fighter, cleric facing off vs. a dragon because you want to steal his horde, it'd be great if sneaky thief guy were just ganking the gems and treasure while the fighter defended against the dragon's attacks and the cleric kept the dragon in place, after which the wizard would be great in creating a barrier between the party and pursuing dragon, before you all get back together and escape.

True enough. Any fight you can walk away from is a good one. It's a new perspective; our group generally doesn't run fro anything...if we can help it. Once the cleric dies it's like "well, screw you guys. I'm gone!".

[Yukitsu]

Just because you know it's good tactics, doesn't really mean it'll happen. I never run from anything in character, even though it's usually a good tactic, and I'm really callous about the lives of my characters. I'm usually good enough at ad-hoc improvisation and very select item acquisitions that I can get away with it though.