Of Dwarves and Longbows

[Beelzebub1111]

I got in an argument with a player over weather a dwarf could weild a medium sized longbow. how should I handle this?

This player is hung up on 2nd edition for the "realism" but we're playing a 3.5 eberron game and he just has to suspend his disbelief a bit.

[Kaeso]

I got in an argument with a player over weather a dwarf could weild a medium sized longbow. how should I handle this?

This player is hung up on 2nd edition for the "realism" but we're playing a 3.5 eberron game and he just has to suspend his disbelief a bit.

Why shouldn't he be able to? Dwarves can wield medium sized axes, crossbows, javelins etc. Why should a bow be unusual?

I've had an argument about this with a friend of mine as well, because he believes that dwarves just shouldn't use bows.

[Greenish]

Dwarves may be on the short end of medium size, but they're there. If it's his character, just let him use a small one with the -2 penalty, or tell him to pick a crossbow. If it's not his character, tell him to keep it to himself.

[Ravens_cry]

The arm lengths going by the PHB races illustration are about the same, so why not?

[Shpadoinkle]

Dwarves are medium size, so they wield medium weapons normally. Point out in the PHB where it specifically mentions dwarves are medium size.

[Leon]

I got in an argument with a player over weather a dwarf could wield a medium sized longbow. how should I handle this?

This player is hung up on 2nd edition for the "realism" but we're playing a 3.5 eberron game and he just has to suspend his disbelief a bit.

Tell him to get over it.
What ever it is with 2e is to do with 2e, you are not playing that.

[shadow_archmagi]

My character starts every fight by tripping and disarming someone with a single punch attack.

This game wasn't going to be realistic from the start.

[ericgrau]

^ Come on you need more creativity, you're tripping and disarming with unarmed strikes. Leg sweeps, wrist twisting and such.

He could wield a shortbow. Or turn the bow diagonally and act all cool. But ya by the rules and probably by the pictures there's no problem. Heck by the rules you can kneel (but not drop prone) and still have enough room to fire without penalty. How about this house rule: dwarves can't kneel and use a bow. Most people forget kneeling rules even exist, no one will ever care, your friend can sleep easy at night knowing his insignificant pet peeve is satisfied.

[Telonius]

It's not like longbows come in exactly one size. Maybe one of our weapons experts could give you a better answer, but I'm under the impression that bows could vary in top-to-bottom length, but have other factors (tightness of the string, thickness of the wood) changed so it wouldn't affect the strength of the bow. (And that's really what it's about, as far as mechanics are concerned - will the bow do 1d8 or 1d6 damage?)

Just by the rules, male Dwarves can be a maximum of 4 foot 5. Human (and other medium) females (plus elf males) a minimum of 4 foot 7. (PHB p. 109) Is two inches really going to mean that much? Or would some humans also not qualify?

Either way, he's quibbling over what amounts to an average of 1 damage per hit.

[subject42]

^ Come on you need more creativity, you're tripping and disarming with unarmed strikes. Leg sweeps, wrist twisting and such.

The last time I had a character explicitly make unarmed strikes with something other than a fist I made the DM choke and spray hummus out of his nose.

[ericgrau]

It's not like longbows come in exactly one size.
Well then when it's shorter it's not a longbow anymore, it's a shortbow :smalltongue:. But dwarves are, what, a foot shorter? They should still be able to use a longbow.

[Efil]

Dwarves could use assymetrical medium longbows, perhaps?

[Greenish]

Or turn the bow diagonally and act all cool.Now I'm stuck with images of teenage dwarfs holding their longbows "gansta style".

[Daftendirekt]

Now I'm stuck with images of teenage dwarfs holding their longbows "gansta style".

KILL SHOT KILL SHOT!

[Gamer Girl]

^ Or turn the bow diagonally and act all cool.

I've been to a couple hundred Renaissance Fairs and Archery Demonstrations, so I'm safe in saying that plenty of people do, in fact, shoot a long bow diagonally.

[gomipile]

Dwarves could use assymetrical medium longbows, perhaps?

Like a Japanese longbow, of the type sometimes used in Zen archery?

[Efil]

Like a Japanese longbow, of the type sometimes used in Zen archery?

like a yumi, yes.

[No brains]

No all 'long' bows are the English longbows that are truly giant (past 6 feet) sticks with strings on them. A longbow is simply a bow bigger than a shortbow, and shortbows can be really, really small.

But... I do have to agree with a couple other posters. If it isn't his character, (and why argue against a 'better' weapon choice) shut that bitch up. >:/

[John Campbell]

Longbows are called that for a reason. The efficient length for the bow limbs is dependent on the archer's draw length, and for humans ends up being roughly equal to their height, give or take a bit depending on material.

Dwarves have much longer arms relative to their height than humans do, and correspondingly longer proportionate draw length. Their longbows should be very nearly as long as a human's, possibly even longer than a small human's, and considerably longer than they are tall. They're going to have trouble shooting one without the limbs striking the ground or other nearby objects, and they're a really bad plan for tunnel-fighting.

On the flip side, D&D bow terminology and mechanics are nonsense from the ground up. "Composite longbow", in particular, is an oxymoron, and the requirement of "composite" to get a Str bonus is just bizarre, as are the tremendous price multipliers for bows that allow even reasonably ordinary Str bonuses. If you just say it's a bow that does 1d8 damage and allows Str bonus and don't worry about how D&D's nonsense categories correspond to the real world, it makes everything a lot less headache-inducing.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Longbow is a stupid name, as it actually covers many different bows. The Japanese bow, the flatbow, and the the Turkish war bow are examples of longbows and composite longbows. The English longbow is not the only type of bow that uses those mechanics, in fact, the bigger English longbow would use the greatbow mechanics.

[No brains]

...in fact, the bigger English longbow would use the greatbow mechanics.

This. Second. +1. Whatever.

I'm pretty sure the great bow was inspired by the English's insane drive to make a tree into an infantry weapon. Who else in history has looked at a tree and thought:

"I need to make this into a weapon. A weapon poor people can use."

[JaronK]

Just tell your player that Dwarven Longbows are made from superior dwarven materials that have greater spring for their size, allowing the bow to be slightly shorter but thicker and having the same power.

JaronK

[John Campbell]

Heh. "Yew is for elves. Dwarven longbows are made out of spring steel."

[No brains]

Just tell your player that Dwarven Longbows are made from superior dwarven materials that have greater spring for their size, allowing the bow to be slightly shorter but thicker and having the same power.


Heh. "Yew is for elves. Dwarven longbows are made out of spring steel."

But what if that Dwarf tries to use a bow that some non-dwarf drops?

[Cog]

Since the Dwarven bows are more compact, they've become surprisingly popular among the other races.

[McSmack]

I can see a dwarven longbow looking something like a modern day compound bow or compound crossbow.

[Greenish]

But what if that Dwarf tries to use a bow that some non-dwarf drops?Then he deserves no respect. Boo! Hiss!

[erikun]

But what if that Dwarf tries to use a bow that some non-dwarf drops?
Then point out the the nosy character that the armor they are wearing from some random dragon hoard was not professionally fitted for them, and that it should neither be granting them a practical AC bonus and should be giving a large skill check penality for being encumbering.

Or just say that the same thing happens to magical weapons as does magical armor in 3.5e: it adjusts a bit to fit the user.

[subject42]

But what if that Dwarf tries to use a bow that some non-dwarf drops?

They just crush it down like a beer can until it's the right length.

[John Campbell]

Then point out the the nosy character that the armor they are wearing from some random dragon hoard was not professionally fitted for them, and that it should neither be granting them a practical AC bonus and should be giving a large skill check penality for being encumbering.

Or just say that the same thing happens to magical weapons as does magical armor in 3.5e: it adjusts a bit to fit the user.

I get really annoyed because the dwarf in the party can wear magical armor designed for any other Medium creature because "it's magic and resizes to fit", but the bow that I dropped 900 gp on before the tens of thousands of gold worth of enchantment somehow can't adjust to match simple changes in my Strength.

[AslanCross]

Like a Japanese longbow, of the type sometimes used in Zen archery?

That's probably what a dwarf could easily use. They can be fired from a seated position.

http://www.rak3.jp/home/user/bushidou/7.jpg

[Coidzor]

My character starts every fight by tripping and disarming someone with a single punch attack.

Snap-kicking or...?


I get really annoyed because the dwarf in the party can wear magical armor designed for any other Medium creature because "it's magic and resizes to fit", but the bow that I dropped 900 gp on before the tens of thousands of gold worth of enchantment somehow can't adjust to match simple changes in my Strength.

There just comes a time in every dorf's life that they just have to say "Screw the rules, I have a prehensile Beard!"

[Ravens_cry]

3.5 Dwarf arms (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/phbraces35.gif/) are about as long as human arms and it is possible to fire an ordinary longbow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeZc9C-3vxs) while kneeling. QED

[Beelzebub1111]

Good news everyone. I managed to convince that player otherwise using your arguments, including arm length and I showed him the video of the guy using a longbow kneeling.

[AslanCross]

Good news everyone. I managed to convince that player otherwise using your arguments, including arm length and I showed him the video of the guy using a longbow kneeling.

Hooray for rational thinking! Good to know there are still people who respect good reasons and evidence nowadays.

[Saintheart]

My character starts every fight by tripping and disarming someone with a single punch attack.

This game wasn't going to be realistic from the start.

You should reconsider building with Chuck Norris as the skeleton. Even in D&D terms, he wins too much. :smallbiggrin:

[GoatToucher]

I get really annoyed because the dwarf in the party can wear magical armor designed for any other Medium creature because "it's magic and resizes to fit", but the bow that I dropped 900 gp on before the tens of thousands of gold worth of enchantment somehow can't adjust to match simple changes in my Strength.

Since there are no systems listed for determining the potential strength bonus of a magic bow, I just determined that they do, in fact, accommodate all ranges of exceptional strength. They are freaking magic, after all.