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Tvtyrant
2011-04-27, 02:34 PM
Campaign idea that has been kicking around in the back of my head.

A Modron now known as The Rogue was part of one of the Great Marches that went through Limbo, the home of the Slaad. Its sense of Law was so disgusted by its experiences that even as a humble Monodrone it concieved of a goal outside of the orders of its superiors. It patiently waited for eons to go up through the Modron ranks until it reached the rank of Secundi.

As a Secundi it had access to the might of 1/4 of Regulus, and could fulfill its desire to destroy the Slaad and bring order to Limbo. The Rogue quickly built alliances with the Inevitables and Formians and built a massive portal in the heart of Regulus that lead to Limbo. When at last the portal was built the Rogue ordered nearly 100 million Modrons through the portal into Limbo, accompanied by thousands of Inevitables and millions of Formians lead by a single Formian Queen.

The moment that the army passed through the portal the Primus ordered a second Secundi to take another army through the portal and retrieve the Rogue. This Secundi has sent offers of tremendous wealth throughout the planes for aid against the Rogue, and it is from this offer that you pass through Regulus and into Limbo.

Inside of Limbo there are 4 potential organized groups to fight:
1. The Inevitables will not allow you to capture the Secundi, so destroying the contract that they signed with the Rogue Secundi may be the only way to get near him. It is heavily guarded however.
2. The Formian Queen has no desire to be stranded in Limbo without allies, so she will send Mymarchs against you if you attack the Modrons. Killing her would end the Formian presence and reduce the army by millions.
3. The Rogue Modron needs to be destroyed in order to end the war and satisfy the Primus (and get your reward). Killing it is difficult as it has both Formian and Inevitable guards. It doesn't use high level Modrons as guards for fear of them being Primus spies.
4. The Rogue will pay handsomely if you destroy the Slaad's Spawning Stone and so drive the race to inevitable extinction. This is contested by a Slaad Lord, but the Rogue will distract him with a massive military push if you are willing to accept the job.


The overall goal of the campaign is to go from level 1 (fighting monodrones and worker Formians) up to level 20 (killing the CR 19 Secundi). The campaign can also be expanded to Epic by having the Secundi kill the Primus in order to become a Primus and end the chaos within the Modron ranks. Killing the Rogue Primus would be an epic level fight as it is a deity, and would involve fighting with two of the Secundi as its bodyguards.

Fhaolan
2011-04-27, 03:00 PM
There is a glitch to this, but it might be minor depending on your players. You've not just set the scene for the players, you've already defined the major goals for the PCs with the assumption that they're going to agree to those goals.

The players I deal with might immediately have the PCs support the Rogue as elimination of Slaad would be a 'good' thing in their minds.

More likely they'd support the Slaad, and work to increase the level of chaotic tension between the Rogue and Primus, with the intent of them weakening each other, setting the stage for the invasion of Regulus.

Tvtyrant
2011-04-27, 03:04 PM
I considered that as a fifth option, and it wouldn't really bother me if it went that way. Modrons are inherently boring afterall. The one reason I didn't mention that it the Slaad don't have a society to speak of and view mortals as something to be used for reproduction in much the way that Mindflayers do.

The biggest issue I keep coming up to is how to keep the combat interesting; Modrons tend to have the same powers through each CR (Cleric full casting+SLAs) so I added Inevitables and Formians but you can't really give any of them levels and keep to the fluff of their races.

NichG
2011-04-27, 03:19 PM
I think you're going to need a better motivator than 'vast amounts of wealth' for the PCs to stay on this particular track for 20 levels. 'I will offer 1000 gold for information about the enemy modrons' works well for a Lv1 party, but unless you have characters who are very transparently only out to gain levels and gear and that sort of power, 'I will offer 100 million gold to slay the Secundus' doesn't quite work. They will have had enough income by then to retire if they so chose.

What if the fact that two of Primus' secundi are out fighting eachother means that a full half of the laws of physics in the multiverse are getting 'distracted'. That is, it starts with random, mostly annoying things like one hut in one particular village has reversed gravity, and it just gets worse as the war continues. Eventually magic itself starts to glitch. Of course the problem then is, at some point everyone in the planes would be rushing in to do something about it because that's pretty severe. So it might have to be something more subtle but personally important to the PCs (perhaps its little unimportant laws that could add up to one big one if it got bad enough, and the PCs are/are in contact with Guvners who figure out that this is going on when their experiments start giving irreproducible results).

Tvtyrant
2011-04-27, 03:33 PM
Well the reason the Primus wants the whole thing stopped is that it is worried about starting the old Law-Chaos war back up. In that regard Devils and Archons could start showing up on the Secundi's side and Demons/Ghaeles could start showing up defending the Slaadi. Then the reason for entering would be to prevent a cosmos wide war.

Alternatively I could reduce it down to just 10-15 or 15-20 but then more then 90% of the modrons, Slaads, and Formians are pointless cannon fodder. And if it was low enough the troops matter then you couldn't really do much to sway the situation.

NichG
2011-04-27, 03:48 PM
The 1-20 thing can still work, you just need more interesting motivations.

What if the final reward for ending the situation is 'We will allow one law to be broken on your behalf'? If you let your players know ahead of time that that sort of thing should be in their motivations somewhere, you could get all sorts of things:

- A PC who wants to bring back their lover, who died off-plane as a petitioner, and was therefore 'lost forever' by the laws of the universe.

- A PC who wants to be truly immortal, and wishes those inevitables would leave him alone.

- A wild mage who wants to do it just to spit it back in their faces by stating some law whose breach would be worse than the entire situation.

- A PC who wants to get this reward to prevent others from receiving it (like the formerly mentioned wild mage)

- A PC who has made a deal with a Duke of Baator for his soul, and wants contract law to no longer apply to him.

As far as making combat interesting, keep in mind that the forces the PCs will be facing are all technically rogue modrons. So they don't need to be 'predictable' in the sense of the rest of the modron hierarchy. Perhaps they've been winning because they've done crazy stuff that modrons just don't do, like taking class levels, or gaining weird templates. They're a little mentally broken so it doesn't parse that this is the exact sort of thing they're trying to destroy. Perhaps they're getting aid from the Yugoloths, who want to see the Law/Chaos war restart across the planes. Perhaps the Githyanki are helping them because it allows them to lay waste to Githzerai cities on their way through Limbo...

Eldan
2011-04-27, 04:19 PM
I actually doubt that destroying the Spawning stone would destroy the Slaad. It could actually end up making them more powerful: the spawning stone not only keeps them in an endless cycle of infighting, it was also made by the Slaad Lords to lock the other castes into specific forms. If it was destroyed, True Slaad could eventually return.

Interesting, though, that the Formians should ally with Modrons. That doesn't usually happen, though this could fall under "Common Enemy".

Bonus points if you can get Xanxost to make an appearance.

Fhaolan
2011-04-27, 05:21 PM
I actually doubt that destroying the Spawning stone would destroy the Slaad. It could actually end up making them more powerful: the spawning stone not only keeps them in an endless cycle of infighting, it was also made by the Slaad Lords to lock the other castes into specific forms. If it was destroyed, True Slaad could eventually return.

In which case, if the players *really* want to support the Slaad in a Chaotic manner, they do back the Rogue. The Rogue may have misunderstood the nature of the Spawning Stone, or simply not believe it, and everyone (including the Slaad Lords) are trying to stop the Rogue to prevent the True Slaad from returning.

Coidzor
2011-04-27, 05:47 PM
1. The Inevitables will not allow you to capture the Secundi, so destroying the contract that they signed with the Rogue Secundi may be the only way to get near him. It is heavily guarded however.

Destroying the physical manifestation of the contract. The entities of pure law are going to be swayed by that? I'd suggest finding the loophole to void their contract instead, or to show that the Secundi had no legal right to make the contract that it did, so the contract is voided or defers back up the chain of command to Primus proper.

Tvtyrant
2011-04-27, 05:55 PM
I actually doubt that destroying the Spawning stone would destroy the Slaad. It could actually end up making them more powerful: the spawning stone not only keeps them in an endless cycle of infighting, it was also made by the Slaad Lords to lock the other castes into specific forms. If it was destroyed, True Slaad could eventually return.

Interesting, though, that the Formians should ally with Modrons. That doesn't usually happen, though this could fall under "Common Enemy".

Bonus points if you can get Xanxost to make an appearance.

I will see about Xanxost, information granters are always useful.

I believe that the Spawning Stone is needed for any form of Slaad reproduction and that the Slaad Lords merely modded it to keep the Slaad in set forms, but it would be an interesting twist if that were not so. Perhaps Xanxost could be worked in as the source of information on the subject "The Slaad exist irregardless of the Stone, but the Stone makes them Slaad" sort of thing.

I used the Formians because they occupy the same Plane as the Modrons and are Lawful to the extreme in the same way Inevitables and Modrons are. Their being enemies on Mechanus/Nirvana (depending on the edition used) would not I think stop the alliance because the Formians want to expand above anything else and they would get an entire new plane if they can defeat the Slaad.

You make a good point there Coidzor; I went with contract destruction because I wanted to avoid the "Bring an ambassador with you" scenario. Would a more interesting one be to find a way that attacking the Slaad would be breaking an older contract?

Mikeavelli
2011-04-27, 07:15 PM
Isn't it odd that creatures of pure chaos always end up in a handful of forms, all following the same basic shape of "Giant Demon-Frog?"

It's because the Slaadi lords collectively got together and said to themselves, "You know, pure rolling chaos tends to create a lot of things. Sometimes a lot of dangerous things. It could end up spawning something even more powerful than us. We should really do something about that."

So they created the Spawning Stone, and now Slaadi are always in the shape of Slaadi.

Under a certain definition of Law, destroying it would be a supremely lawful thing to do. The Plane is Limbo is supposed to represent pure unfettered chaos, and the existence of the Spawning Stone shackles it to law, which violates the laws of Limbo. Dropping a motive rant along these lines on your players would be priceless.

Destroying the stone would, yes, mean the eventual extinction of the Slaadi, because the creation of Slaadi would no longer be any more likely than the creation of any other possible thing from Limbo, so the Slaadi would still oppose its destruction.

[hr]

On the other hand, Planescape fluff is intentionally filled with holes, rumors, lies, and other openings for the DM to put their own spin on the true dark behind the mysteries of the Planes. Almost any interpretation you decide is correct, is correct.

Tvtyrant
2011-04-27, 07:33 PM
Isn't it odd that creatures of pure chaos always end up in a handful of forms, all following the same basic shape of "Giant Demon-Frog?"

It's because the Slaadi lords collectively got together and said to themselves, "You know, pure rolling chaos tends to create a lot of things. Sometimes a lot of dangerous things. It could end up spawning something even more powerful than us. We should really do something about that."

So they created the Spawning Stone, and now Slaadi are always in the shape of Slaadi.

Under a certain definition of Law, destroying it would be a supremely lawful thing to do. The Plane is Limbo is supposed to represent pure unfettered chaos, and the existence of the Spawning Stone shackles it to law, which violates the laws of Limbo. Dropping a motive rant along these lines on your players would be priceless.

Destroying the stone would, yes, mean the eventual extinction of the Slaadi, because the creation of Slaadi would no longer be any more likely than the creation of any other possible thing from Limbo, so the Slaadi would still oppose its destruction.

<hr>

On the other hand, Planescape fluff is intentionally filled with holes, rumors, lies, and other openings for the DM to put their own spin on the true dark behind the mysteries of the Planes. Almost any interpretation you decide is correct, is correct.

Actually I think this is magnificent; Secundi's reason for being so disgusted is not a desire to destroy the Slaadi (as is assumed) it is to destroy the Spawning Stone for creating Law where it is supposed to be Chaos. That is...Beautiful.

Coidzor
2011-04-27, 09:05 PM
Wouldn't Slaadi Spawners continue propagating Slaadi even without the spawning stone?

Shyftir
2011-04-27, 09:08 PM
And when it's all done you're left with a 4e 'verse. No more regimented Great Circle!

Sorry. That was unhelpful and pretty much pointless, but it's where my head went.

BluesEclipse
2011-04-28, 09:23 AM
...Wow.

I'm incredibly tempted to steal this entire premise for a campaign, now.

This could create some interesting scenarios... especially since the campaign focus is on the law/chaos interaction... there's no reason why both sides might not try to recruit/ally with both good and evil parties.

Suddenly, I get the image of devils and angels fighting side by side against the chaotic hordes...

Tvtyrant
2011-04-28, 09:28 AM
Like they were supposed to! I still wonder why they felt that every Modron should be a Cleric full caster, its weird.

DeltaEmil
2011-04-28, 10:01 AM
Good and evil outsiders don't (willingly) fight alongside each another, seeing as how the creatures of the higher planes in the great-wheel cosmology do hate evil beings with all their hatey-hate they can muster (and the denizens of the lower planes do harbor the same feeling to the other side). Eladrins still go around kicking tanar'ri-demons in their nuts whenever possible, and archons don't really care if the fiend they're smiting comes from Baator or the Abyss (or Gehenna, Hades, and whatever there is).

Lawful good beings don't go around fighting chaotic good beings. They'll at best scoff at each another at worst, if at all. If they do fight against each another (and in most cases, it's some dumb justification like a misunderstanding or so), it's because authors outright ignore the good part, knowing that yes, there absolutely is no reason for the goody-goody-beings to fight each another just because one good guy likes to number his books while the other goody-two-shoes doesn't care about it.

If there's no good and evil, and only chaos and law, like in the Elric-setting, that's one thing, but if you use the entire package with the great wheel which has all nine alignment axis, you're not going to be able to claim that archons are going to side with modrons and baatezu-devils (or other devils and lawful evil fiends).

BluesEclipse
2011-04-28, 10:28 AM
The demons join the Slaad because it's another opportunity to cause mayhem and destruction. Even if the Slaad are allied with the eladrin, the demons will still take opportunities to fight them when other enemies aren't present.

The archons join with the Rogue in order to stop them from wreaking havoc across the multiverse. If the Rogue allies with devils, they will allow this, grudgingly, since the chaotic hordes are a greater threat - one that is all too willing to cause nothing but destruction - and if the devils are focused on fighting the Slaad and other demons, it means they aren't focusing their efforts on conquering the other planes. Naturally, not all archons will believe in this(probably make these divisions based on the ideology of the different gods), and some groups of archons may actively seek to stop others for the percieved betrayal of the heavens - by force, if necessary.

The devils join with the Rogue because they feel that it is a perfect opportunity to eliminate the demons - and because their contract with the Rogue Secundi could involve him aiding them in subsequent battles against the heavens. And while they could call a truce with the archons while fighting the forces of chaos, once that war ends(by whatever means), the truce is over and the devils can immediately strike at the archon forces - requiring aid from the Rogue and his forces under the terms of the contract.

The eladrin ally with the Slaad, seeing the invasion by the Rogue's forces as a sign that the modrons are now seeking to conquer the planes in the hopes of asserting absolute law. Viewing the alliance with the devils as a sign that they're being corrupted, they will be brought into conflict with the archon forces as well, working to sway them from that path, or outright eliminate them. Some eladrin, likewise, will want to ride out the conflict, or even turn on the others, not willing to accept even the thought of an alliance with the demons.

Okay, now I'm definitely going to have to use this concept for a campaign... something that can support characters from all alignments, and allow even for encounters that normally would be impossible(a Pit Fiend and a Solar? MADNESS!)... It could really prove interesting, leading to different missions depending on who you side with.

DeltaEmil
2011-04-28, 11:15 AM
Demons don't join the slaad. They're incapable of joining an alliance with the slaads who are even more likely to not keep their part of the deal, as they don't care for contracts, and demons are already incapable of working with themselves. They can't defeat the devils, even although they have infinite numbers and are individually stronger in most cases, because that's how much they suck at working together. And the devils are still occupied with the absolute majority of their forces against the demons because even although the demons suck tactically and strategically and hinder themselves, there's still lots of them out there that can overrun the hells if no coordinated defenses are put against the tides.
At best, some minor fiendish mercenary groups aside from the daemons will perhaps join the endeavor of the rogue modron and the slaadi.
If the rogue modron allies with the devilish forces of evil, that just means that it's evil and needs to be put down (also, the devils are better served if they go fight in their blood war if there's no modron hiring them, which serves all the forces of good better than helping an obviously insane modron and devils, so it's a win-win for the archons and the 'loyalist' modrons under Primus).
And yeah, eladrins won't need to side with slaads or with demons either (nor would they ever want to).
Eladrins are more individualists, but are a lot better at working together because they don't have attention disorders like the limbo-frogs who actualize radishes greenly with turquoise bycicle shoe fins or the tanar'ri-dorks who are chronic backstabbers and sabotage themselves because that's how anarchistic and violent they are. Even so, demons are demons and need to be exterminated, and if there's no archon, mortal paladin or angel doing it, they'll gladly storm the fiends.

Eldan
2011-04-28, 11:33 AM
That's not entirely true. It's already been established that at least the archons see hell as the lesser of two evils when compared to the abyss and help it along here and there, which has caused one or the other Eladrin to do similar things for the abyss with the same motives.

The Bloodwar is still strongly felt on the upper planes, it's just not fought with the same means.

Tvtyrant
2011-04-28, 12:26 PM
The fact that all of the alliances your saying can't happen have happened in the past implies that it could happen again in the future. What the Secundi has done is re-polarized the Law/Chaos axis by making the condition for Modrons victory an attack on chaos/freedom itself. The Modrons are pushing a Law/authoritarian agenda which endangers Chaotic Good as much as Chaotic Neutral. The reason the Good/Evil axis came into existence was the Baator became specialized in killing Demons and needed a new power source to fight the war (souls).

Eldan
2011-04-28, 12:49 PM
As far as I know, the law-chaos polarization never actually stopped and, for the most part, is stronger than the evil-good divide, probably because it seems to be older. Just because the celestial don't fight each other openly doesn't mean that they don't have a lot at stake in the blood war.

Tvtyrant
2011-04-28, 12:54 PM
As far as I know, the law-chaos polarization never actually stopped and, for the most part, is stronger than the evil-good divide, probably because it seems to be older. Just because the celestial don't fight each other openly doesn't mean that they don't have a lot at stake in the blood war.

Exactly! The reason this particular case is dangerous for stirring it back into a full blown war is that the Modrons and Slaad are neutral on the Good/Evil access, so both the Good and Evil sections on their respective sides can support them. The Solars aren't working with the Pit Fiends per se, they are each working with the Modrons. Like the US wasn't allied with Russia in WWI, they were both allied with Britain (after the Germans blew up the Lusitania of course).

Eldan
2011-04-28, 12:58 PM
I wouldn't involve solars, or it gets really messy. They are not only mixed on the law-chaos axis, they are also not aligned with any plane. Getting the gods in is always risky.

Tvtyrant
2011-04-28, 01:04 PM
I wouldn't involve solars, or it gets really messy. They are not only mixed on the law-chaos axis, they are also not aligned with any plane. Getting the gods in is always risky.

I actually meant Trumpet Archons, but Solar came out instead :smallredface:

And probably the gods would eventually get involved if the war gets big enough. Like Mechanus or Limbo is destroyed/have their axis altered. I was thinking of having them switch with Limbo occupied by Formians making it Lawful and Mechanus being filled with chaotic creatures like Slaad and Chaos Beasts making it Chaotic if the party doesn't stop the war. Then all of the souls are getting sent to the wrong place and suffer if you can't either fix it or change the soul routes for chaotic neutral and lawful neutral.

Eldan
2011-04-28, 01:06 PM
I think the strongly lawful and chaotic pantheons would get their hands in first. I can't think of any major pantheons sitting in Limbo, actually, but a good part of the Celestial Bureaucracy is in Mechanus. They would probably dislike slipping (and they have been known to send out agents to retrieve misplaced souls).

BluesEclipse
2011-04-28, 01:11 PM
Indeed... the way I plan on running it(and I've decided that I am going to use this idea for a campaign - I needed an idea for an upcoming one anyway) is that the good and evil parties on either side will work together in battle - the lawful ones becuase they're following orders and honoring the agreements made, the chaotic ones more because the law forces are more of a threat to their freedom. When not actively engaged, however, they'll still be wary of one another, and given opportuinty, they will attack one another(this will more be skirmishes between smaller groups of archons and devils or eladrin and demons).

Oh... the ways this could be made to work out. I'm seeing quite a few factions:
1.) The Primus and his loyalists.
2.) The Rogue Secundi and his allies.
3.) The Archons allied with the Rogue/Devils.
4.) The "paladin" Archons, who won't ally with evil in any form - and who will fight those that have.
5.) The Devils allied with the Rogue/Archons.
6.) The Devils who are unwilling to ally with the Archons, or who believe staying out of the war is best.
7.) The Slaad.
8.) The Demons.
9.) The Eladrin allied with the Slaad/Demons.
10.) The Eladrin who refuse to ally with the Demons, and will try to destroy those - both Archon and Eladrin - who ally with evil.
11.) Denizens of other planes(elemental, energy, material) who are neutral and trying not to get involved(though the other forces might be trying to recruit them).
12.) Mercenary groups willing to fight for whoever offers the most.

It's... somewhat frightening to look at this and see just how many possibilities are available for this campaign, depending on how the players want to go.

DeltaEmil
2011-04-28, 01:12 PM
That's not entirely true. It's already been established that at least the archons see hell as the lesser of two evils when compared to the abyss and help it along here and there, which has caused one or the other Eladrin to do similar things for the abyss with the same motives.

The Bloodwar is still strongly felt on the upper planes, it's just not fought with the same means.With helping along here and there, did they openly side with their ethic-similar fiendish counterparts or did they just attack the other fiends and then retreat, keeping both fiendish sides balanced in terms of power over each another, so that the stalemate of the Blood War continues in eternity? And did archons ever attack eladrins because of that?

There's helping fiends, and then there's helping the Blood War.

Tvtyrant
2011-04-28, 01:27 PM
What would your suggestion for a timeline if the party does not destroy the Secundi? So far my timeline looks like:

1. Rogue Secundi invades Limbo with massive army and runs into bands of Slaad. Slaad Lords gather counter army of Slaads to stall attack.

2. Second Secundi is sent by Primus to get the army back, party should hear about the conflict at this time (either offered job by Modrons, Rogue Modrons, Slaad, or they simply hear about it in Sigil.) Job offers are: Kill Rogue, Destroy Spawning Stone, seal portal to Mechanus (maybe some other ones depending). The party could also go to Limbo/Regulus to loot things while everyone is distracted.

3. Rogue Secundi and the Primus' Secundi both end up fighting two front wars, against each other and against the Slaad that do not distinguish between them. Rogue's plans are bogged down and army stops advancing. Rogue begins to conceive of killing Primus to stop the infighting between Modrons.

In this time period the party can loot unguarded Slaad treasures, kill the Formian Queen, cause the Rogue Modrons to break their contract with the Inevitables, destroy the Spawning Stone, kill the Rogue Secundi, kill the Primus' Secundi, fight in major battles between the groups, and basically tool around in Limbo while the Rogue builds a device to kill the Primus.

(it moves into Epic after this, or very high level play)

4. Rogue secretly returns to Regulus and kills Primus. If party destroyed the Rogue or the Stone this does not happen, if not it succeeds with its plot and sends every last Modron out of Regulus into Limbo. The party can prevent this by killing the new Primus (who is a deity) or sit back and watch the fire works.

5. The Primus' success overwhelms the Slaad with the single largest army in the cosmos. Graz'zt sees the eminent destruction of the Slaad as upsetting the balance of power which he has been using to conquer the Abyss and sends a massive relief army to protect the Slaad. The Devils move in opposition to aid the Modrons, which leads to the Bralani moving in against the Devils. The Archons move troops into Limbo to protect the interests of the Lawful Modrons and Devils. At this point the war really cannot be stopped, as most of the outer planes are now involved.

nedz
2011-04-28, 01:31 PM
Actually I think this is magnificent; Secundi's reason for being so disgusted is not a desire to destroy the Slaadi (as is assumed) it is to destroy the Spawning Stone for creating Law where it is supposed to be Chaos. That is...Beautiful.

OR

If he views the Spawning Stone as an Artifact of Law: why wouldn't he want it 'returning' to the realms of law ?
Whether the Spawning Stone is an Artifact of Law is a moot point. If it definately isn't, and the Modrons don't find out until too late, well that could be interesting.

There are so many ways you can spin a "War in Heaven".
Perhaps, as an intro, a unit of Modrons get lost and end up attacking the Prime. If they are low level then they might carry on attacking out of ignorance. You could then have a bunch of [whatever you like] turn up to fight them. All just outside the Tavern where the PCs meet up:smallsmile:

Tvtyrant
2011-04-28, 01:34 PM
For a group that I haven't heard mentioned since 2E the Modrons certainly make for a good campaign... Though looking at their stats in AD&Ds MMII most of them were in what we would now know as epic. Going to ask the AD&Ders how Epic used to work...

BluesEclipse
2011-04-28, 02:08 PM
What would your suggestion for a timeline if the party does not destroy the Secundi? So far my timeline looks like:

1. Rogue Secundi invades Limbo with massive army and runs into bands of Slaad. Slaad Lords gather counter army of Slaads to stall attack.

2. Second Secundi is sent by Primus to get the army back, party should hear about the conflict at this time (either offered job by Modrons, Rogue Modrons, Slaad, or they simply hear about it in Sigil.) Job offers are: Kill Rogue, Destroy Spawning Stone, seal portal to Mechanus (maybe some other ones depending). The party could also go to Limbo/Regulus to loot things while everyone is distracted.

3. Rogue Secundi and the Primus' Secundi both end up fighting two front wars, against each other and against the Slaad that do not distinguish between them. Rogue's plans are bogged down and army stops advancing. Rogue begins to conceive of killing Primus to stop the infighting between Modrons.

In this time period the party can loot unguarded Slaad treasures, kill the Formian Queen, cause the Rogue Modrons to break their contract with the Inevitables, destroy the Spawning Stone, kill the Rogue Secundi, kill the Primus' Secundi, fight in major battles between the groups, and basically tool around in Limbo while the Rogue builds a device to kill the Primus.

(it moves into Epic after this, or very high level play)

4. Rogue secretly returns to Regulus and kills Primus. If party destroyed the Rogue or the Stone this does not happen, if not it succeeds with its plot and sends every last Modron out of Regulus into Limbo. The party can prevent this by killing the new Primus (who is a deity) or sit back and watch the fire works.

5. The Primus' success overwhelms the Slaad with the single largest army in the cosmos. Graz'zt sees the eminent destruction of the Slaad as upsetting the balance of power which he has been using to conquer the Abyss and sends a massive relief army to protect the Slaad. The Devils move in opposition to aid the Modrons, which leads to the Bralani moving in against the Devils. The Archons move troops into Limbo to protect the interests of the Lawful Modrons and Devils. At this point the war really cannot be stopped, as most of the outer planes are now involved.

I think I'm going to wind up incorporating elements of NichG's suggestion(that the laws of the Multiverse are sometimes not functioning properly due to this upheaval).

I'd be looking at a similar timeline, except with the following changes:

1.) The Rogue forms contracts with the Inevitables and Formians, invades Limbo. The Slaad marshall forces to counter.
2.) The Rogue forms contract with the Devils, offering aid against the Demons in exchange for Devil aid against the Slaad. As a result of this, the Demons ally with the Slaad.
2a.) The Primus issues orders to the loyal Secundi to stop the Rogue.
2b.) "Glitches" in the physics of the planes begin appearing: Gravity spontaneously stopping/reversing, magic displaying different elements than normal, people suffering fatal wounds standing as though nothing had happened, etc. The PCs begin by investigating these, making contact with lesser Modrons and possibly Inevitables as they do.
3.) The Archons join the Rogue in order to stop the destruction they feel the chaotic forces will cause. In response, the Eladrin join the Slaad against the lawful forces they feel seek to dominate the entire multiverse. Various groups from the Prime and Inner Planes begin allying with the assorted factions, either because they wish to support law/chaos, or because they have their own agendas involved.
3a.) Word of this war spreads throughout the planes.
4.) The PCs get involved. How this happens may occur in one of many ways.
4a.) The Rogue determines that the Primus is no longer adequately representing the cause of Law, and begins plans to replace him.
5.) The PCs will ally themselves with one(or more) factions in the war.
--At this point, the PCs should be at or near Epic levels--
6a.) If the PCs did not stop the Rogue's plans, or allied with the Rogue, the Rogue eliminates the Primus. While many of the Modrons will follow him, some will not view his leadership as legitimate, and thus will work against him.
6b.) If the PCs did stop the Rogue's plans, the Chaos hordes may overtake the Rogue's forces, laying siege to the planes of Law directly.
6c.) Regardless of this, the "Glitches" will grow more and more pronounced as time passes - beings of pure alignment(Solars, Pit Fiends, etc) will begin acting contrary to their nature, sections of the planes will begin manifesting wildly different traits, etc.
7.) The "Glitches" will be found to be the work of a powerful being from outside the planes(Something from the Far Realm? A Vestige attempting to break back into reality, acting through an Epic Binder? An Epic Truenamer trying to rewrite the universe to his will? An Abomination that's been working to destabilize existence?). The PCs will have to work against this force, all the while trying to contend with the varied factions of the war.

At that point, whatever happens will be determined by the actions of the PCs.

Mikeavelli
2011-04-28, 02:49 PM
While the Slaadi and the Tanar'Ri probably wouldn't formally ally, they'd definitely be on the same side of the war. Most likely it would be a bunch of
individual Tanar'Ri showing up in Limbo, running into some Modrons, and letting the magic happen. Sure, they'd end up killing a few of the Slaadi as well, but y'know, you can't make an omelet without a little bloodshed between chaotic outsiders.

[hr]

Chaotic Good and Lawful Good outsiders do indeed get into conflict. It's entirely possible (though unlikely) that they'll come to blows over something this important. You might well have individual Eladrin taking opposite sides of the conflict (some support the Slaadi because the Modrons are oppressing them - some others support the Modrons because they think the Spawning Stone really is a lawful artifact, and chaos needs to be chaotic!

Also, the Spawning Stone is corrupted with evil. See: Chaotic Evil aligned Slaadi, but no chaotic good Slaadi.

Might be fun to get a few individual Eladrin NPC's with opposing viewpoints. A single group of Archons with a unified goal (though again, you can justify them taking pretty much any given side of the war). Run at least one adventure where they're directly opposing each other, and have a chance of actually coming to blows.

The entire goal of the adventure being to prevent the embodiments of goodness from killing each other over Law and Chaos.

Rilmani, Yugoloths, and Baatezu, and Guardinals are also going to get in on this party. Should be enough fodder for you to run a whole 20-level campaign around this idea.

[hr]

Lastly, for Epic Level, remember the old Fanon theory: The most powerful Inevitable in the Multiverse is a Plane-sized embodiment of pure law. Its name is Mechanus, and it transforms into a man-shaped mass of cogs and gears.

BluesEclipse
2011-04-28, 02:56 PM
While the Slaadi and the Tanar'Ri probably wouldn't formally ally, they'd definitely be on the same side of the war. Most likely it would be a bunch of
individual Tanar'Ri showing up in Limbo, running into some Modrons, and letting the magic happen. Sure, they'd end up killing a few of the Slaadi as well, but y'know, you can't make an omelet without a little bloodshed between chaotic outsiders.

<hr>

Chaotic Good and Lawful Good outsiders do indeed get into conflict. It's entirely possible (though unlikely) that they'll come to blows over something this important. You might well have individual Eladrin taking opposite sides of the conflict (some support the Slaadi because the Modrons are oppressing them - some others support the Modrons because they think the Spawning Stone really is a lawful artifact, and chaos needs to be chaotic!

Also, the Spawning Stone is corrupted with evil. See: Chaotic Evil aligned Slaadi, but no chaotic good Slaadi.

Might be fun to get a few individual Eladrin NPC's with opposing viewpoints. A single group of Archons with a unified goal (though again, you can justify them taking pretty much any given side of the war). Run at least one adventure where they're directly opposing each other, and have a chance of actually coming to blows.

The entire goal of the adventure being to prevent the embodiments of goodness from killing each other over Law and Chaos.

Rilmani, Yugoloths, and Baatezu, and Guardinals are also going to get in on this party. Should be enough fodder for you to run a whole 20-level campaign around this idea.

<hr>

Lastly, for Epic Level, remember the old Fanon theory: The most powerful Inevitable in the Multiverse is a Plane-sized embodiment of pure law. Its name is Mechanus, and it transforms into a man-shaped mass of cogs and gears.

By the end of this, my players should have seen battles between every conceivable combination of outsiders - including Archon v. Archon, Devil v. Devil, etc.

Also... Mechanus as a Omicron-level Transformer? Interesting...

Tvtyrant
2011-04-28, 03:49 PM
Hmmm, eventually the gods are going to get involved, as well as the Demon Lords and the Lords of the Nine. This is probably going to cause the fighting on the Prime Material between the followers of the gods who are fighting in the outer planes. When the group inevitably starts fighting Epic+ monsters like gods and Fiend Lords it might even be possible to switch to a low level party that is on a Prime planet and try to survive the fallout.

Eldan
2011-04-28, 04:07 PM
The fallout on the prime should be limited, until the gods get involved. All outsiders, but the fiends especially, are very limited in where they can move.

Tvtyrant
2011-04-28, 07:04 PM
The fallout on the prime should be limited, until the gods get involved. All outsiders, but the fiends especially, are very limited in where they can move.

This is definitely true; I was seeing the Prime battles as between various gods' followers not between primers and planars. So Vecna's cults all start trying to kill off Boccab or whatever. The main goal would be to stir up localized chaos because of deific wars, not have Angels battling in the skies.

Randel
2011-04-28, 08:53 PM
Here's an idea: What if the Secundi has his own theory about how the cosmos should be working and that the current way is wrong and due to the effects of the Spawning Stone imposing Law on Limbo?

Basically: Law vs Chaos isn't a battle between one force and another, or the act of chaos "corrupting" normally lawful things. Its that Chaos is the way the universe brings new things into existance and Law is what organizes those things and helps them work safely together.


So, imagine that Limbo is supposed to constantly spawn random stuff... coins made of butter, dragons with five heads and no legs, rocks that sing jazz music, etc. Many of those things would be pretty useless and probably die/be destroyed/fall into a pit or whatever. But some of those random things would survive enough to make it out of Limbo and go into one of the other planes.

These new species might go into the Chaotic Evil planes to become new kinds of evil beings (or be tortured by them) or go to chaotic good planes to become good beings or be driven out by them. Or the planes of chaos could randomly spawn lawful-aligned beings (really, why not? if the plane randomly creates stuff then there's nothing stopping some of those creatures from wanting to have things organized).

So Limbo is in fact the origin of life and new ideas. Mechanus and the other Lawful aligned planes are inhabited by lawful beings who would help organize the universe and hopefully help integrate the new species and ideas into the current universe (like the prime material plane).

The Secundi sees that the cosmos should be in constant motion with adding things, things being tested, and Law being ever present to keep the whole thing working.

But the Slaad changed everything by installing the Spawnstone. Now Limbo only creates Slaad instead of all the random new stuff its "supposed" to be creating. The Good and Evil aligned forces don't see a problem with this since in the beginning Limbo was creating all sort of stuff that was either stupid or dangerous with only a little bit being any use to them. The Modrons didn't really care about the sudden change or they didn't perceive the problem (most Modrons are so used to seeing Law and adverse to Chaos that the Rogue Modron was probably the first one to really look at Limbo and see that it not being pure chaos was a problem).


Of course, the Slaad probably put in the stone eons ago so nobody alive right now knows or cares about how sruff was supposed to be and they like things as they are because things are stable as they see it. The Rogue just wants to set things to the way they really were supposed ot be at the begining of Time (or whatever) but that would result in a change that would add alot of random stuff pouring out of Limbo and bothering everyone else in the cosmos.

The chaotic aligned forces might be fighting this not only out of protecting "chaos" but because if Limbo starts working right then they will be constantly running into crazy random stuff coming out of Limbo and bothering them.

The Rogue will probably assure anyone who asks him about this by saying that a fully functional Limbo will create Good aligned creatures in addition to Evil ones and in the end it will give Mechanus something to actually do (namely, organizing all hte new species and making sure they can work in the Prime Material planes and such).

NichG
2011-04-28, 09:25 PM
Here's an idea: What if the Secundi has his own theory about how the cosmos should be working and that the current way is wrong and due to the effects of the Spawning Stone imposing Law on Limbo?

Basically: Law vs Chaos isn't a battle between one force and another, or the act of chaos "corrupting" normally lawful things. Its that Chaos is the way the universe brings new things into existance and Law is what organizes those things and helps them work safely together.


Most parties I played with or DM'd for would side with the Secundus in this case. That may or may not be a sticking point depending how flexible you are with how the campaign should go.

Randel
2011-04-28, 10:18 PM
Even weirder idea based on my last:

The entire cosmos is in fact a gigantic machine! Limbo creates hoards of random new creatures, species, ideas, and gods. Those things are then sent to the Chaotic Good plane where Evil things are weeded out and sent towards the Chaotic Evil plane. They are then migrated/filtered through the neutral planes to the Lawful Good and Lawful Evil planes and such.

So Limbo creates a bunch of new species and they are sort of filtered through the various alignment planes.

Then, the elemental planes of Earth, Water, Air, Fire and various energies start working and provide the raw materials to create a whole new planet! This planet is then placed into the Prime Material along with the various other inhabited worlds and then its provided with inhabitants (of mortals, monsters, gods, and others).

Basically, the whole mix of elemental planes and alignment planes are supposed to be working together to create new worlds in the Prime Material. It even did work out for a bit in the very beginning (long enough to create the campaign setting the heroes start out in).

The problem was that this whole operation caused a massive amount of headaches for alot of the powers that be in the various planes. The elemental plane of Earth for example gets massive earthquakes when it provides the mass for the new planet and the various alignment planes had problems when all the new species and gods were being randomly created. So they might have worked to create the Spawnstone that locked up Limbo to create only the Slaad. The act of limiting Limbos creativity allowed the Slaad to inhabit Limbo and stopped the whole process which turned the various planes from being just part of the same grand machine into the warring planes that they are today.

The Secundi plans to "restart the Great Wheel" by eliminating the Spawnstone. Unfortunatly, this might tick of pretty much everyone. Cue two different speeches from the Secundi and the other team... Secundi showing a picture of a perfectly working Great Wheel sending happy little new species through the system while the elemental planes rotate around and create a new planet for them to live in... then show a picture from the other team showing hoards of monsters flooding through the planes while the elemental planes start shaking uncontrolably in unending earthquakes as they have raw material extracted from themselves.

It becomes a case where the cosmos and all it inhabit are in (relative) stability now by keeping an eye on one another but restarting the huge machine they all inhabit would result in unfathomable amounts of upheaval and possible panic. The Secundi might not understand how changing the game of the whole cosmos would effect all the high-powered deities, beings, and eons-old civilizations that inhabit the world that resulted when "the Great Wheel stopped turning".

Or it could be that he's mistaken in some respect, someone else has plans to manipulate what happens if things restart, or restarting the Wheel would have some negative effect on all the Prime Material worlds that currently exist (or maybe there is one that was still being worked on when the Spawnstone stopped everything and restarting things would mess up the people inhabiting that last world).

Tvtyrant
2011-04-29, 01:18 AM
So thinking about Limbo as a giant spawning ground, what kinds of monsters would come out of it? I was thinking about using all of the weird unupdated monsters from AD&D like the dreaded Froghemoth (because its a frog the same way the Slaad are!).

Coidzor
2011-04-29, 01:59 AM
Or it could be that he's mistaken in some respect, someone else has plans to manipulate what happens if things restart, or restarting the Wheel would have some negative effect on all the Prime Material worlds that currently exist (or maybe there is one that was still being worked on when the Spawnstone stopped everything and restarting things would mess up the people inhabiting that last world).

Like, say, actually causing the Great Wheel to start turning again just means the current multiverse is wiped clean, which is what happens just about every time a campaign wraps up anyway....

Tvtyrant
2011-04-29, 04:55 PM
Or you could make it so new creatures poor into the Prime Material Plane and become humanoids/monstrous humanoids. Or even steal the plot from the last Futurama movie and have all of the extinct creatures from all of time come back, so Obyriths pour into the Abyss and Titans roam freely.

Randel
2011-04-30, 12:33 AM
Or you could make it so new creatures poor into the Prime Material Plane and become humanoids/monstrous humanoids. Or even steal the plot from the last Futurama movie and have all of the extinct creatures from all of time come back, so Obyriths pour into the Abyss and Titans roam freely.

Hmm... so restarting Limbo effectivlely makes it impossible for species to go extinct? The Secundi or many lawful and/or good beings seeing that as a good thing (at least at first) but it then becomes apparent that it also creates evil creatures in addition to good ones.

So there could be some people allying with the Secundi who know of his true plan. There may have been ancient races of noble elves or beings of Pure Good who were wiped out in a cataclysm. But there are also scores of evil creatures and monsters that were wiped out as well. Different groups might want it restarted to bring back the good things (or evil things depending on who's wanting it) while others want it to stay the same to prevent said good/evil races from being brought back.

I'm getting a vibe like the Doctor Who episode "End of Time" where the Time Lords are trying to come back by re-opening the Time War... which would allow both the Time Lords and the Daleks back into the universe. However, in addition to those two races there are all sorts of other monstrosities like the Could-Have-Been King and his armies of Neverweres and the Nightmare Child and all sorts of other nasty sounding things that you don't want back in reality.

Basically the Secundi plans on removing that Spawning Stone because he feels its putting Law in the elemental plane of Chaos and thus putting the multiverse out of balance. Its detracting from how the multiverse was originally designed to look. However, that Spawning Stone is keeping Limbo from creating all sorts of horrible monsters that might prove too much for the multiverse as it stands. Restarting Limbo might make the planes themselves work 'properly' but at the cost of endangering the lives of pretty much all the inhabitants as they are flooded with races that were wiped out in all the previous wars of creation.

The Modrons and other pure law creatures under his command follow him because they feel its the lawful thing to do (due to contracts, he's their superiors, its a battle of law and chaos, etc) while he might also have other people working for him motivated for other reasons (bringing back extinct races, fighting some group in the battle, etc). Few people might actually know what he's really trying to do but the more powerful ones who might actually know what the Spawning Stone does want it protected due to what might happen if its broken.

Coidzor
2011-04-30, 12:38 AM
Chaotic Good and Lawful Good outsiders do indeed get into conflict. It's entirely possible (though unlikely) that they'll come to blows over something this important.

What you can't discount is that the Celestials know about the Blood War and how lucky they are not to be involved in it anymore. They're not going to throw that away and divide themselves over it until they've waited and watched how this was going to play out for a bit first.

Tvtyrant
2011-04-30, 12:49 AM
What you can't discount is that the Celestials know about the Blood War and how lucky they are not to be involved in it anymore. They're not going to throw that away and divide themselves over it until they've waited and watched how this was going to play out for a bit first.

Or the opposite, they have been looking for an opportunity to restart it WWI France style. All of the old grudges dealt with in one final war to decide the fate of the universe (which every side is sure they can win).

Coidzor
2011-04-30, 01:32 AM
Or the opposite, they have been looking for an opportunity to restart it WWI France style. All of the old grudges dealt with in one final war to decide the fate of the universe (which every side is sure they can win).

:smallconfused: That would only make sense if they had been fighting on the side of the demons back in the day.

Tvtyrant
2011-04-30, 02:12 AM
:smallconfused: That would only make sense if they had been fighting on the side of the demons back in the day.

The Chaotic Good side were, including the Bralani. It was in fact the decision of the Bralani to invade the Abyss that broke the Obyriths and let the Tanari take control.

magellan
2011-04-30, 04:14 AM
2 Ideas for this:
A nice introduction adventure would be to have the party hired to retrieve something from mechanus. It would have been impossible to retrieve if the modrons guarding it were around, but as it turns out a sizeable chunk of the modron population is missing.

Second: would primus/mechanus allow for a gate to limbo be constructed? I can't imagine that. I think it would have to be opened from limbo side. Maybe during the march the modron convinced some locals to build it, so they could quiet down the neighbourhood a little?