White Dragonspawn errata (edited)?

[Hirax]

White Dragonspawn are a somewhat less well known LA+1 race (Dragonlance page 222), but one of the most powerful (other chromatic variants exist but have higher LA). In the past year I've seen a couple references to some sort of update to them that changes their LA to +3 IF you have free will, but if you're still a slave it's LA+1. Does anyone have a source on this? My searches for Dragonlance errata aren't turning up anything mentioning changes to dragonspawn. This (http://www.dlnexus.com/fan/rules/12016.aspx) is all I could find, and it has no mention of dragonspawn.

Quick rundown for anyone unfamiliar:
Acquired template, creature is transformed when he is enslaved by a dragon.
Become monstrous humanoid, gain cold subtype, retain base creatures statistics and abilities.
+2 dex, +2 con, no penalties
+7 natural armor
Fly speed of twice land speed, average maneuverability
You gain the spellcasting ability of a level 1 sorcerer, or your spellcasting ability as a sorcerer is +1 if you have class levels in it.
You can take feats normally reserved for dragons
A few other things I'm forgetting, those are the highlights though.

edit: It's been established that Dragonspawn were updated in Bestiary of Krynn, and while I now have the revised edition of this book and can see this to be true, I don't see where it says a free dragonspawn gets and addition+2 LA.

[Aemoh87]

I donot know the location. But I had a player use this and I forced him to start the game enslaved by a reasonably powerful white dragon. He eventually turned on his master and killed him and I let him keep the template with no additional LA for solving the problem in game. But if a player wants to start masterless +3 seems reasonable.

[Cog]

I don't think it's unknown so much as known to be rather aromatic cheese.

Posting the full stats probably isn't a good idea.

[Hirax]

Those aren't the full stats

[Coidzor]

You sure you're not thinking of Voidmind?

[Aspenor]

Yes, there is an errata (well, actually it's a reprinting that takes precedence over the original print). It is exactly as you have written, with an addition: Dragonwrought Kobolds are no longer eligible to be a dragonspawn. Creating a dragonspawn from one would create a dragonspawn abomination. Abominations get randomly dtermined benefits based on d100 (or d20) rolls. There is less than a 10% chance that a dragonspawn abomination will get +1 sorcerer level spellcasting.

There are increasingly lower chances that you could technically get 2, or even 3 sorcerer levels. The odds of that are astronomically low, though.

It's in the Bestiary of Krynn, revised edition.

[Coidzor]

So only do it with loaded dice, basically.

[Cadian 9th]

Yes, there is an errata (well, actually it's a reprinting that takes precedence over the original print). It is exactly as you have written, with an addition: Dragonwrought Kobolds are no longer eligible to be a dragonspawn. Creating a dragonspawn from one would create a dragonspawn abomination. Abominations get randomly dtermined benefits based on d100 (or d20) rolls. There is less than a 10% chance that a dragonspawn abomination will get +1 sorcerer level spellcasting.

There are increasingly lower chances that you could technically get 2, or even 3 sorcerer levels. The odds of that are astronomically low, though.

It's in the Bestiary of Krynn, revised edition.

That sounds incredibly insightful for an errata. I'm a bit mystified why they'd single out Dragonwrought Kobolds, especially since this is almost a direct response to optimization. Where'd you find this?

[Coidzor]

That sounds incredibly insightful for an errata. I'm a bit mystified why they'd single out Dragonwrought Kobolds, especially since this is almost a direct response to optimization. Where'd you find this?

I think it's things with the dragon type that are forced through this process, not just dragonwrought kobolds.

[Kylarra]

Actually it's anything that isn't a human or a half-elf. It's on page 45 for people that can look it up.

[Curmudgeon]

I think it's things with the dragon type that are forced through this process, not just dragonwrought kobolds.
The Dragonspawn template isn't available to Dragonwrought, since that feat gives them the Dragon type. Dragonspawn can only be applied to Giant, Humanoid, or Monstrous Humanoid creatures.

[faceroll]

A kobold is a humanoid. Apply Dragonspawn first, then pick up Dragonwrought with retraining, psychic reformation, or dark chaos shuffle.

Avoids both pre- and post-errata problems.

[Aspenor]

Ah, yes, I was mistaken.

Anything that is not a human or half-elf becomes a Dragonspawn Abomination.

Anything not a giant, humanoid, or monstrous humanoid cannot be a Dragonspawn of any type.

Therefore, Dragonwrought Kobolds cannot be either one.

This of course leads to the argument that Dragonwrought can be applied after Dragonspawn, which I'm not getting into.

[Kylarra]

A kobold is a humanoid. Apply Dragonspawn first, then pick up Dragonwrought with retraining, psychic reformation, or dark chaos shuffle.

Avoids both pre- and post-errata problems.Human, not humanoid.

[faceroll]

Human, not humanoid.

Oh snap.


23WATERYSTXCYKGVHLBJK

[Cadian 9th]

There's a feat in Races of Destiny that gives you Human Lineage, so you can take things as a Human. I think another feat for our Dragonwrought might be a bit much, but hey.

[Curmudgeon]

There's a feat in Races of Destiny that gives you Human Lineage, so you can take things as a Human.
Human Heritage requires that you be Half-Human or of a Human-descended race, so a reptilian race like Kobold isn't going to qualify.

[Hirax]

I was able to scoop up Bestiary of Krynn for a dollar, whee! It says revised in big letters, so I think I got the right one, but I'm not seeing where in the dragonspawn entry it says to increase LA for a freed dragonspawn after a couple careful readings. I've scanned other sections and didn't see it. Hopefully there isn't a second revised version.

However, I'm glad I picked it up, because the dragonspawn abominations are definitely intriguing. Not just kobolds, but anything that isn't a human or half elf [almost] automatically also gets the abomination template if it has the dragonspawn template applied to it. Some of the wording implies a near human could argue for an exception, but it also specifically says dwarves automatically become abominations, whereas half-ogre humans have an 80% chances of being abominations. The abomination template adds LA+1 -4 int and -4 wisdom, among other things.

I'm also glad I picked up the book, because next to the dragonspawn is the dragon vassal, and holy wow, if there ever was a worthwhile LA+2 template for a melee character. Fast healing, racial bonus to all saves, big racial bonus to listen, search, and spot, great physical ability modifiers, no mental ability penalties, and more.

[JaronK]

Feats are chosen after you assign race and template, so a Kobold takes the White Dragonspawn template, THEN gets the Dragonwrought feat. This is not only legal... it's the only way you're allowed to do it.

So no, a Dragonwrought Kobold can't take Dragonspawn, because that's out of order. A Dragonspawn Kobold CAN take Dragonwrouht.

JaronK

[Hirax]

Dragonwrought can only be taken at first level.

[JaronK]

Yes, but you chose your race before assigning your first level.

JaronK

[absolmorph]

Yes, but you chose your race before assigning your first level.

JaronK
But by the time you assign any levels you're level 2.

[JaronK]

But by the time you assign any levels you're level 2.

You mean because of LA? Doesn't matter... one way or the other, you pick out your race (Dragonspawn Kobold), THEN start working on your first level (whether that's 1 or 50). See the PHB for the precise order. Suffice to say, feats are pretty late in the process of leveling up (after choosing a class and, IIRC, assigning skill points).

JaronK

[Aspenor]

Let's look at the actual rules, rather than making things up.


You were born a Dragonwrought Kobold
Yep, you were that way since the very beginning of your life.


Some templates can be added to creatures anytime. Templates such as these are referred to as acquired templates, indicating that the creature did not always have the attributes of the template.
Yep, you haven't had an acquired template since the beginning of your life.

Guess what Dragonspawn happens to be? Yep, you got it, acquired.

Oh, and it likely wouldn't matter anyway, because you'd be a dragonspawn abomination instead. The one with the ~5% chance to get a sorcerer level.

[true_shinken]

Let's look at the actual rules, rather than making things up.

This is quite rare when it comes to kobolds. I'm surprised no one has said they are true dragons in this thread yet.

[Quietus]

A kobold is a humanoid. Apply Dragonspawn first, then pick up Dragonwrought with retraining, psychic reformation, or dark chaos shuffle.

Avoids both pre- and post-errata problems.

This doesn't work, because if memory serves, Dragonwrought requires that it specifically be taken at first level, during character creation.

Technically, JaronK's method would work, but anyone who tried that kind of crap with me would need to dodge a sailing DMG. Then again, that's pretty common among the "But the RAW says I can do this, why can't I do this???" arguments. Great for TO, but smacktastic for PO.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Actually Abominations are BETTER than just plain old Dragonspawn. If you read the passage on page 24 (45 in the revised version) it states that "While abominations possess all the usual abilities of their dragonspawn brethren, for some reason, the spawning process always goes awry when targeted against beings without a substantial amount of human blood." That means that non-humans/half-elves have the potential to get +3 sorcerer levels from being a dragonspawn instead of just 1.

[Aspenor]

Actually Abominations are BETTER than just plain old Dragonspawn. If you read the passage on page 24 (45 in the revised version) it states that "While abominations possess all the usual abilities of their dragonspawn brethren, for some reason, the spawning process always goes awry when targeted against beings without a substantial amount of human blood." That means that non-humans/half-elves have the potential to get +3 sorcerer levels from being a dragonspawn instead of just 1.

Yeah, except that the +1 level sorcerer spellcasting isn't in the "creating a dragonspawn abomination section." So, the only way to get +3 sorcerer levels is roll it once, then roll "roll twice again" and then roll the sorcerer level 2 more times. So, yes, you have the potential to be better, but you are not necessarily better.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Yeah, except that the +1 level sorcerer spellcasting isn't in the "creating a dragonspawn abomination section." So, the only way to get +3 sorcerer levels is roll it once, then roll "roll twice again" and then roll the sorcerer level 2 more times. So, yes, you have the potential to be better, but you are not necessarily better.

First, it is, and Second it is only possible to obtain +3 levels because you only roll for two mutations if you roll a 96-100 on the first roll, any other roll that is 96-100 after is rerolled until you get something else.

EDIT: I misread the special qualities paragraph, it is possible to obtain +7 Sorcerer levels from the dragonspawn abomination because Kobolds aren't listed in the racial bit. Granted the chances of that are so slim it is laughable but still possible.

"Creating an Abomination Dragonspawn
“Abomination dragonspawn” is an acquired template that can be added to any dragonspawn (refered to hereafter as the “base creature”)."

[Aspenor]

Ah, yes, I missed that part. Thank you.

That doesn't change the fact that a Dragonwrought Kobold cannot even take Dragonspawn. A normal kobold can, but a Dragonwrought cannot.

[JaronK]

Ah, yes, I missed that part. Thank you.

That doesn't change the fact that a Dragonwrought Kobold cannot even take Dragonspawn. A normal kobold can, but a Dragonwrought cannot.

RAI, yes. RAW no. You quoted fluff to support your position (that you're born Dragonwrought, and become a Dragonspawn) but RAW is actually the opposite... you assign your race first (Dragonspawn Kobold) then assign feats (Dragonwrought). You're not even allowed to do it the RAI way by RAW. The PHB is extremely clear on this point... feel free to look it up and check. It's in the leveling up section, near the beginning.

And by RAI, I doubt you were ever supposed to do this with PCs anyway... it was likely designed with only monsters in mind, by designers who didn't even stop to consider what they were doing. So I don't think the difference matters at all. By RAI you shouldn't be doing this at all, by RAW Dragonwrought Kobolds can do it just the same as any other humanoid.

JaronK

[Aspenor]

RAI, yes. RAW no. You quoted fluff to support your position (that you're born Dragonwrought, and become a Dragonspawn) but RAW is actually the opposite... you assign your race first (Dragonspawn Kobold) then assign feats (Dragonwrought). You're not even allowed to do it the RAI way by RAW. The PHB is extremely clear on this point... feel free to look it up and check. It's in the leveling up section, near the beginning.

And by RAI, I doubt you were ever supposed to do this with PCs anyway... it was likely designed with only monsters in mind, by designers who didn't even stop to consider what they were doing. So I don't think the difference matters at all. By RAI you shouldn't be doing this at all, by RAW Dragonwrought Kobolds can do it just the same as any other humanoid.

JaronK

The way it works, RAW, is to follow the rules for assigning races AND templates. Dragonspawn is not a race: it is an acquired template. The PHB does not create rules for the application of templates. You must follow the rules for acquired templates, and in order to take Dragonspawn you must not be a dragon. Simply by the Dragonwrought feat, you cannot do so. Whether it is fluff or not is wholly irrelevant, as long as the fluff does not directly contradict a non-fluff rule. Fluff is still a part of the RAW, whether you like it or not.

[true_shinken]

And by RAI, I doubt you were ever supposed to do this with PCs anyway...
...but it has LA. LA is for PCs only.

[Curmudgeon]

...but it has LA. LA is for PCs only.
Where's that "only" coming from? LA mean's it's allowed for PCs. But it's allowed for NPCs, too.