Introducing ToB into Eberron

[McSmack]

So after reading Tome of Battle I've decided to incorporate it into my Eberron Campaign. Then I thought that it instead of having it retconned into the world I would instead have the party discover the Temple of Nine Swords deep in the jungles of Xendrik.

The PC's have already established the nation of New Cyre and have now busy taming the surrounding wilds. I was thinking of having them stumble onto the ruins of a Titan city to the west. Floating above it will be a fortress ruled by a family of cloud giants. Below tribes of Drow and Hill giants battle for control of the ruins.

Both the Hill giants and the drow have controlled the lower levels of the Temple of Nine Swords at one time or another, and as such they have both gleaned enough knowledge to become low level martial adepts (only a few disciplines and up to 3rd level maneuvers). So far none of the groups have managed to defeat the Immortal Guardians of the Nine to unlock the upper levels of the Temple.

The PC's,whilst searching for a McGuffin, will be forced to deal with the Guardians, and unlock the Chamber of Nine Swords to gain access to the Tome.

The party is level 9, but slightly overgeared, so I usually put them up against EL 11's.
I'm also looking for a good chassis for the local giants. I'm wanting something slightly smarter and less 'ugg-smash' than your typical hill giant. I've considered having them look like hill giants but using the stats for ogres instead. This gives me less racial HD so I can stack more class levels on them (I don't have my books handy, but I think that's correct).

So what do you guys think? Any advice or suggestions?

[The Glyphstone]

Isn't that specifically why Ebberon invented the Primordial Giant template?

[AslanCross]

I thought it would be cool for each of the schools to actually be tied to a race that invented it, then the scholar who studied and mastered them all (Reshar) would take the lore he gets from those and combine them. The problem here is that the history doesn't really tie up well with learning all of these in one lifetime:

Stone Dragon would be the oldest, invented by the Giants.
Iron Heart, even by the fluff of ToB, was invented by the hobgoblins. This would originate during the time of the Dhakaani empire.
Desert Wind would be from Valenar, so it would appear around the same time as Iron Heart.
Shadow Hand would have been invented by the first House Phiarlan members.
White Raven and Devoted Spirit could have come from the elves as well, as those tie up with Eternal Blade (which fits both Aereni and Valenar elves very well). The Dragonmarks only appeared fairly recently.
Setting Sun might have been either developed by the monks of Adar or the Talenta halflings. It's ideal for wrangling dinosaurs.
Diamond Mind would have been developed by the first Kalashtar, OR stolen from the Inspired by them. This means it only came into Eberron less than 1800 years before 998 YK (the year the campaign is assumed to start), making in the most recent.

[Keld Denar]

Ironically (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingClassLevels), adding caster levels to giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#hillGiant) is easy.

According to the rules, adding 2 levels of a non-associated class only increases CR by 1, up to their HD. Caster levels are non-associated for any class that isn't inherantly magical...like Hill Giants. Hill Giants have 12 HD, so that gives you a lot of room to work with. Your vanilia Hill Giant is CR7. A Hill Giant Cleric2 is CR8. A Hill Giant Wizard4 is CR9. A Hill Giant Wu-Jen6 is CR10. A Hill Giant Spirit Shaman8 is CR11. A Hill Giant Favored Soul10 is CR12. A Hill Giant Sorcerer 12 is CR13.

Since you are adding a significant number of HD, you are also adding a significant amount of HP, especially considering a Hill Giant's 19 Con. You also get the standard +1 ability score per 4 levels, so you can boost Con to 20 shortly and then boost your casting stat. Use the above mentioned Primordial Giant template to boost casting stats so as to make use of spells. You probably won't get too too far with spells with saves, but a few buffs to go with your 20 or so HD go a LONG ways.

Aren't the rules fun?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ironically (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingClassLevels), adding caster levels to giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#hillGiant) is easy.

According to the rules, adding 2 levels of a non-associated class only increases CR by 1, up to their HD. Caster levels are non-associated for any class that isn't inherantly magical...like Hill Giants. Hill Giants have 12 HD, so that gives you a lot of room to work with. Your vanilia Hill Giant is CR7. A Hill Giant Cleric2 is CR8. A Hill Giant Wizard4 is CR9. A Hill Giant Wu-Jen6 is CR10. A Hill Giant Spirit Shaman8 is CR11. A Hill Giant Favored Soul10 is CR12. A Hill Giant Sorcerer 12 is CR13.

Since you are adding a significant number of HD, you are also adding a significant amount of HP, especially considering a Hill Giant's 19 Con. You also get the standard +1 ability score per 4 levels, so you can boost Con to 20 shortly and then boost your casting stat. Use the above mentioned Primordial Giant template to boost casting stats so as to make use of spells. You probably won't get too too far with spells with saves, but a few buffs to go with your 20 or so HD go a LONG ways.

Aren't the rules fun?

I love the Associated and non-associated rules, there are just too many exploits with them:smallcool:

[Greenish]

Ironically (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingClassLevels), adding caster levels to giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#hillGiant) is easy.

According to the rules, adding 2 levels of a non-associated class only increases CR by 1, up to their HD. Caster levels are non-associated for any class that isn't inherantly magical...like Hill Giants. Hill Giants have 12 HD, so that gives you a lot of room to work with. Your vanilia Hill Giant is CR7. A Hill Giant Cleric2 is CR8. A Hill Giant Wizard4 is CR9. A Hill Giant Wu-Jen6 is CR10. A Hill Giant Spirit Shaman8 is CR11. A Hill Giant Favored Soul10 is CR12. A Hill Giant Sorcerer 12 is CR13.

Since you are adding a significant number of HD, you are also adding a significant amount of HP, especially considering a Hill Giant's 19 Con. You also get the standard +1 ability score per 4 levels, so you can boost Con to 20 shortly and then boost your casting stat. Use the above mentioned Primordial Giant template to boost casting stats so as to make use of spells. You probably won't get too too far with spells with saves, but a few buffs to go with your 20 or so HD go a LONG ways.

Aren't the rules fun?But, those are casters. What are casters doing guarding the temple of nine swords (aside from safeguarding their monopoly)?

[Dusk Eclipse]

But, those are casters. What are casters doing guarding the temple of nine swords (aside from safeguarding their monopoly)?

They are training to become Ruby Knight Vindicators or Jade Phoenix mages, duh :smalltongue:

And I think you could add Swordsage levels as non-associated classes to Giants without much hassle, IIRC Rogue and Rangers (the best analogues for Swordsages) are only associated levels for monsters that rely on stealth.

[Keld Denar]

I was addressing this quote:

I'm wanting something slightly smarter and less 'ugg-smash' than your typical hill giant. I've considered having them look like hill giants but using the stats for ogres instead. This gives me less racial HD so I can stack more class levels on them (I don't have my books handy, but I think that's correct).
Specifically the "slightly smarter less 'ugg-smash'" part. Nothing says smarter like a competant caster.

Unfortunately, Martial Adept levels are going to be associated for a giant, so 1:1 level to CR. Fortuantely, IL is based off HD, so those 12 giant HD give you an IL of 6, meaning your 1st level of Warblade is IL7 with immediate access to 4th level maneuvers.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was addressing this quote:

Specifically the "slightly smarter less 'ugg-smash'" part. Nothing says smarter like a competant caster.

Unfortunately, Martial Adept levels are going to be associated for a giant, so 1:1 level to CR. Fortuantely, IL is based off HD, so those 12 giant HD give you an IL of 6, meaning your 1st level of Warblade is IL7 with immediate access to 4th level maneuvers.

Crusaders and Warblade yes; but not Swordsage (or at least IMO)

[Veyr]

Also, the associated/non-associated rules are ridiculous and if you think a Hill Giant Wizard 6 is equal in power to a Hill Giant Fighter 3, well... I've really got nothing to say aside from "you are wrong".

I mean, CR is all almost-a-joke anyway. You should know your party and your monsters, and know (or, at least, hope) that things match up well. I can't claim to be very good at this, but I mean, this is the idea.

[DeltaEmil]

I gave up trying to understand or make Challenge Rating work.

[Prime32]

Bear in mind that there are "Tashalatora-style martial arts schools" across Khorvaire (though many are "pay for the next belt" shams). So NPCs with ToB classes are probably fairly common already, there just aren't many high-level ones (and Masters of Nine are unknown). Reshar didn't invent the disciplines anyway, just formalised them.

[McSmack]

Thanks for the responses.

I'd completely forgotten about the Primordial Giant template. That should work well for my hill giants. I'm going to give them levels of Crusader or Warblade, probably Crusader. I'll be giving the local drow Warblade and Swordsage levels.

I'm also thinking about using a friendly tribe of jungle giants as a go-between. Jungle Giants get a nice hefty bonus to Dex, so they'll make good Swordsages. I'm thinking they might be the decendants of the city's native population before the cloud giants arrived with their fortress and/or they were displaced by the drow.

Either way it will give the PC's a chance to roleplay with some friendly natives, possibly overthrow an evil regime and make the region safer, and hopefully install a friendly neighboring government.

Oh and get a flying fortress as 'loot' which is always nice.

Any suggestions on which diciplines/maneuvers to go with for mid-level martial adepts?