[VtM MET] I'm a prima-what now?

[Zorzark]

The setup: I recently joined a Vampire LARP that was starting up in my area, despite knowing jack all about White Wolf, nevermind oWoD. So I rolled up a young Malkavian vampire who has no idea what's going on and is in way over his head, since that's basically where I was/am at with the setting.

And then this happened: Then the Prince (who rules the city with an iron fist and don't brook no lip. He's something like 2,000 years old.), calls for a "Change of Seasons," which means that anyone can run for the position of primogen of their clan and oust the old guys. As the only Malkavian willing to deal with people on a regular basis (We are Clan Shut-In), the position basically defaults to me and I run without any competition, even from the old primogen.

The problem: I do not actually know what a primogen is. No one really has the time or opportunity to explain it to me, and I'm basically in it alone too, as I'm the only PC primogen. In character it's not much better (it's much worse), since, as the newest and youngest primogen, I have become the seneschal's chew toy and have to do anything he asks of me even if I am totally underqualified.

So what am I to do? What does a primogen do? How do they do it, and what seperates a good one from a bad one? When do they do it? I'm not even sure where to start, but I need to figure it out fast or I think I'm going to 1) get my domain revoked, or 2) get killed, or 3) something worse.

Also, since I'm already here and this is already long, what are you supposed to do with domains? I don't even know how to keep people out of it, which is all I really know that I'm supposed to do with it (It's a crummy part of town, but it's MY crummy part of town). I'm thinking about just making it open to the rest of clan Malkavian, since maybe they'll at least scare off the Sabbat? Should I try just try and blood bond as much of the local wildlife as possible? Use my meager police influence to keep people off the streets at night?

tl;dr: Halp, oWoD Vampire LARP makes no sense.

[Dingle]

I think the primogen is the clan's representative to the prince, and they are also his advisors.



have you considered why the prince would want to change his advisors?
how many changed?
was he afraid of a few of them enacting a change in leadership?
or was he just bored?

[Zorzark]

I think he was just bored. I ended up being the only new primogen after all was said and done; all the other old primogen kept their positions since no one wanted to run against them. I don't know much about the prince either IC or OOC. My only interaction with him was accidently making eye contact with him and being threatened by the seneschal for it, followed by my accidently offending him again in another way shortly thereafter.

[Eldan]

Well, as someone who knows very little about Vampire...

The word seems derived from Primogenitor. The first created. So, that would actually mean the first of a clan. See here: Primogeniture on Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture)

From what I can find online, it actually makes you the local ruler of your clan.

[Dingle]

have you read the V:tm core rulebook?
the rules are mainly for the dice-rolling-pen-and-paper style rpg, but the setting is the same, and there's a lot of flavour text.


who's the sensechal, and why is he messing with you?
as far as I can tell, he'd be equivalent to the US vice president; and doesn't have much power while the prince is around, except as an advisor (just like you).
get annoyed at him and the prince, they're not letting you represent the malkavians, and it's in thier best interests.(I wouldn't put declaring independance past the malkavians)

As the Malkavian Promogen, you represent your clan at the council.
if people are messing with you, act as though you could get the entire clan up in arms against them; even if none of the other malks will talk to you.

you might as well ask the others what bothers them about the curent regime, why just act like a good primogen when you can be a good primogen.



by the way, I've heard a cool story from someone in your position, so you have a chance.
http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=19331&ti=102&date=1257958500
see post #12
it looks like the sensechal always dislikes new primogen.
take a few risks, act like you have a bit of power, what's the worst that can happen.

as far as haven goes, you probably can't defend it with force, just hang round, keep an eye out and figure out how to deal with stuff as it hapens

[Randomonioum]

The Primogen is pretty much the head of the clan. They act as the voice of the rest of them, and the person you go to if you want to complain about something, at least in theory. Mind you though, being a Malkavian, it pretty much constitutes a formality, at least with most insanities.

And Eldan, the founding member of the clans are the Antediluvians. I'm pretty sure the Malkavians is Malkav.

[Friv]

Oh god, I'm having flashbacks to a truly awful Primogen game I played in.

Okay, here's the thing. Theoretically, at least, you are now the actual ruler of your entire clan in the city. This power lasts exactly as far as the other Malkavians will let you take it, so don't get carried away, but you're the one who tells the Prince what they want, and controls what happens to them.

That means that, as a newcomer, you're pretty much a walking symbol that the Malkavians don't give a crap about the Prince, which is not a lovely place to be. Your election is basically a slap in the face to the idea that the Prince's decrees and power structure matter to your clan. So you're going to want to deal with that, probably. I would suggest that your goal here should be to either bring the clan closer to functioning as part of the local Camarilla, or else convince the Prince that they're not worth his time, and then gracefully step aside when a powerful vampire takes your position back, earning points with the elders for knowing your place but also being a go-to guy.

Because if you try to play politics as an equal, you are going to be a chew toy. Mostly just remember that most vampires are out for themselves first, then their clan, and then maybe they can consider tossing a bone to the group.

[LibraryOgre]

The Primogen is pretty much the head of the clan. They act as the voice of the rest of them, and the person you go to if you want to complain about something, at least in theory. Mind you though, being a Malkavian, it pretty much constitutes a formality, at least with most insanities.

And Eldan, the founding member of the clans are the Antediluvians. I'm pretty sure the Malkavians is Malkav.

Yeah, the Malkavians have a very loose clan structure... primogen is basically "whoever loses at that game of dodgeball", and princes rarely take them seriously without a personal relationship (i.e. "Most Malkavians are useless nutjobs. This Malkavian, however, has useful insights when he's not convinced he's the Anti-christ.")

[Randomonioum]

Come to think of it, none of the Malkavians I know have been very secretive or shut-in... are you sure you aren't playing another clan, like Gangrel or Nosferatu?

[The_Jackal]

As others have pointed out, the Malkavian clan are the obligatory iconoclasts of the Vampire world. Badly played, it means they're humourous, flighty and irritating. Well played it means they're subversive, insidious and terrifying.

So, your clanmates have basically all stepped backwards and let you volunteer for being the leader of your Clan, eh? Well, if you want to turn the tables on them and actually claim a bit of power for yourself, focus on making yourself useful to the Prince. Just because you're crazy doesn't mean you can't be effective, so use your clan's legendary powers of espionage to get dirt on everyone. If you can't find dirt (because of largely idle/inactive players) make some up.

If you make yourself useful to the Prince, he's liable to show appreciation, and that's where you can actually get yourself some real power. He's also more likely to act on your advice, which is power of another kind.

[TheCountAlucard]

WARNING: Long post ahead, 'cuz I pretty much replied to almost everyone in the thread. :smalltongue:


So I rolled up a young Malkavian vampire who has no idea what's going on and is in way over his head, since that's basically where I was/am at with the setting.Sounds like a lot of fun to play, actually. A fledgling vampire suddenly thrust into a world of blood and politics he's had no preparation for, and worse off, he's insane to boot.


And then this happened...My, my. :smallamused:


He's something like 2,000 years old.That's pretty old, even for a vampire; are you guys situated in Europe? :smallconfused:


calls for a "Change of Seasons," which means that anyone can run for the position of primogen of their clan and oust the old guys.An interesting changeup. :smallsmile:


We are Clan Shut-InOhohoho... really, now? :amused:


the position basically defaults to me and I run without any competition, even from the old primogen.Mmm-hmm... :smallamused:


In character it's not much better (it's much worse), since, as the newest and youngest primogen, I have become the seneschal's chew toy and have to do anything he asks of me even if I am totally underqualified.That still puts you in a very interesting position... depending on how wily you can be, this can easily work to your advantage.


What does a primogen do?As others have said, a primogen is the local representative of his clan in the city. He also will have some of the strongest political pull in the city (if you can be cunning enough). He watches out for his clan, but he also keeps an eye on the other Kindred; after all, their developments will invariably affect your clan's standing in some way.


How do they do it, and what seperates a good one from a bad one?One of your most helpful tools here is delegation. You can't possibly manage all of your clan's dealings by yourself.

Also, believe it or not, your insanity is a boon here; normally primogens have to spend an inordinate amount of time watching their necks due to their influential positions, but the fact is, since you're a Malkavian, people are going to underestimate you. What is your character's derangement, by the way?


When do they do it?All the time. Primogen isn't a thing you can easily stop being; you're going to have to keep your primogen duties in mind at all times. On the other hand, once you fall into that groove, it's pretty easy to maintain.


I'm not even sure where to start, but I need to figure it out fast or I think I'm going to 1) get my domain revoked, or 2) get killed, or 3) something worse.Probably all three. The Camarilla may be one of the better options, but it is not forgiving.


Also, since I'm already here and this is already long, what are you supposed to do with domains?Whatever you want; me, I would suggest improving them. For one thing, you'll want to build up whatever mortal influence you can get in there, and then get to work. Mortals may often be overlooked by elders, but it's terrifying just how quickly they can get things done, and just how much they can do.

Your domain is a rat-hole? That's actually to your benefit; corrupt cops and lack of a neighborhood watch make for easy feeding. See if you can arrange for more bars or nightclubs in the area. Maybe "convince" any local gangs to be loyal to you; you don't even need Dementation - blood bonding the leader and his lieutenants can work wonders.


I don't even know how to keep people out of itAgain, delegate. Ghouls are great like that. :smallsmile: Also, you don't want so much to keep others out as to make sure that those you let in agree to play nice, and maybe owe you some favors for sitting in your sandbox. :smallsmile:


which is all I really know that I'm supposed to do with it (It's a crummy part of town, but it's MY crummy part of town).That's right; you have Praxis over it, it is yours.


I'm thinking about just making it open to the rest of clan Malkavian...They should appreciate that... :smallsmile:


since maybe they'll at least scare off the Sabbat?Oh, wait, there's Sabbat there? :smalleek: Your "turf" may well be a trial-by-fire, if that's the case. :eek: First things first, if there are Sabbat there, this is a much larger matter. I'll say that purging them should get you some definite kudos, but you're going to need to work to be rid of them.


Should I try just try and blood bond as much of the local wildlife as possible?That depends on a couple of things. First, do you have any dots in Animalism, and second, what kind of area is this place?


Use my meager police influence to keep people off the streets at night?For now, yes, that's a step in the right direction.


Halp, oWoD Vampire LARP makes no sense.Don't worry, you'll learn pretty quickly. :smallsmile:


My only interaction with him was accidently making eye contact with him and being threatened by the seneschal for it, followed by my accidently offending him again in another way shortly thereafter.Something's up here, but it'll take some more information before I can give you any answers on that...


As far as I can tell, he'd be equivalent to the US vice president; and doesn't have much power while the prince is around, except as an advisor (just like you).Kinda-sorta, it's a little more intricate than that, but it's not worth getting into at the moment.


if people are messing with you, act as though you could get the entire clan up in arms against them; even if none of the other malks will talk to you.Well, you don't want to be too willing to use your Influence just yet; it's a much more useful tool as a scalpel than as a sledgehammer.


Okay, here's the thing. Theoretically, at least, you are now the actual ruler of your entire clan in the city. This power lasts exactly as far as the other Malkavians will let you take it, so don't get carried away, but you're the one who tells the Prince what they want, and controls what happens to them.This is very accurate. You're in a very tenable position, but you have to tread lightly to reap the full benefits.


Mostly just remember that most vampires are out for themselves first, then their clan, and then maybe they can consider tossing a bone to the group.This, so hard. :smallsmile:


Yeah, the Malkavians have a very loose clan structure...+1.


and princes rarely take them seriously without a personal relationship...One reason it's actually pretty hard work to be a Malkavian, but if you can pull it off...


(i.e. "Most Malkavians are useless nutjobs. This Malkavian, however, has useful insights when he's not convinced he's the Anti-christ.")You want to appear insightful, but not too much so; that's when others start getting paranoid about you.


Come to think of it, none of the Malkavians I know have been very secretive or shut-in... are you sure you aren't playing another clan, like Gangrel or Nosferatu?Again, Malks are one of the most varied clans in the game; as such, it isn't too surprising that a group of them might be fairly paranoid...


Well played it means they're subversive, insidious and terrifying.Oh my god, this. :smallamused:


So, your clanmates have basically all stepped backwards and let you volunteer for being the leader of your Clan, eh? Well, if you want to turn the tables on them and actually claim a bit of power for yourself, focus on making yourself useful to the Prince.Definitely not bad advice.


Just because you're crazy doesn't mean you can't be effective...Very true.


...so use your clan's legendary powers of espionage to get dirt on everyone.On the other hand, you've gotta be kinda careful with this one. It can be devastatingly effective, but it's not a newbie's game.


If you can't find dirt (because of largely idle/inactive players) make some up.Heh, you'd be surprised at how effective this can be. :smallamused:


If you make yourself useful to the Prince, he's liable to show appreciation, and that's where you can actually get yourself some real power. He's also more likely to act on your advice, which is power of another kind.Hells, yeah. :amused:

Have fun, fellow Malkavian. Remember, "crazy like a fox" is still crazy. :smallsmile:

[Randomonioum]

Malkavians are truly awesome. I'd also like to know what your derangement is, it really affects what you should be pulling.

[LibraryOgre]

You want to appear insightful, but not too much so; that's when others start getting paranoid about you.

You mean, if a Malkavian acts sufficiently NOT insane to be useful and cogent to the Prince, he may inspire Malkav's Gift in other Kindred without the use of Dementation? That the appearance of sanity in a Malkavian is a high-level stealth power of Dementation?

*insane cackling*

[Zorzark]

Oh wow :smallsmile: Thanks for all the advice. I'll definitely keep it in mind; I'd love for primogen to work out for me, if nothing else it gives me something to do ICly. I'm not the most devious person in the world though, so I've got a lot to learn.

Since some of you guys wanted more details, here they are:

Despite the age of the prince, we're playing in the American Southwest (City of Phoenix). Apparently he was offended by me looking him in the eye because Malkavian is a low clan, and he's Ventrue, a high clan. And then I made him angrier by giving him a gift of lilies. I think I survived that mostly because the Keeper (also a Malkavian) swept in and explained that I was really new at this, and the Toreador primogen found it amusing and wanted to keep my character around for laughs.

The seneschal is also a scary bastard. He's a low gen Lasombra and a former member of the Sabbat. He recently said domains were going to be up for review, hence why I'm a little afraid about mine. I also doubt that he appoves of my pseudo-friendship with the local Giovanni representative. And I don't know the traditions or other vampire terms, so when I deer-in-headlights about that stuff while he's talking to me it peeves him.

And my character's insanity is Sanguinary Animism. It doesn't come up a lot since there's not really much blood drinking at the game, and my character doesn't feed from humans unless someone's watching (don't want to look weak). His disciplines are his clan ones (Highest is Obfuscate at 4, others at 3) plus presence (2, I wanted Dread Gaze as a get out of combat free card), and he does have one other trick in that he's got some oracular ability that I don't think many people know about. Influences are currently just police and street, although I'm going to invest in occult to try and expand on the oracle thing. I wish I had animalism, since if I could turn the local animals into allies that'd be sweet. Better talk to some Nos about learning that...

I don't actually know if there's Sabbat in my domain (I... I hope I'd have noticed if they were), but there's been tension between the Cam and the Sabbat and my domain wouldn't be a bad place for them to get closer to the more important ones. I don't know too much about what my domain is like, since I've never been there, but it's a population of about 4,000 and there's a farm and an olive mill. I don't think there's actually any gangs there, but I could try and get one to move in.

How would I actually go about getting dirt on people? Obfuscate? Chat up other Malkavians? What do I do with it once I get it, threaten to tell the Harpy?

[TheCountAlucard]

Thanks for all the advice.Anything to help a fellow Lunatic. :smallsmile:


Despite the age of the prince, we're playing in the American Southwest (City of Phoenix).Admittedly, I don't know a lot about Phoenix, so...


Apparently he was offended by me looking him in the eye because Malkavian is a low clan, and he's Ventrue, a high clan.Definitely has a Dark Ages mindset. :smalltongue:


And then I made him angrier by giving him a gift of lilies.Hmm... not sure if there's anything associated with them in the oWoD...


I think I survived that mostly because the Keeper (also a Malkavian) swept in and explained that I was really new at this, and the Toreador primogen found it amusing and wanted to keep my character around for laughs.'kay. Remember, though, these guys are not your friends. It's nice that they kept you alive, but they had a reason for it, I'm sure.


He's a low gen Lasombra and a former member of the Sabbat.I see...


He recently said domains were going to be up for review, hence why I'm a little afraid about mine.So I can imagine.


I also doubt that he appoves of my pseudo-friendship with the local Giovanni representative.Interesting, and how'd this come to be? :smallamused:


And I don't know the traditions or other vampire terms, so when I deer-in-headlights about that stuff while he's talking to me it peeves him.Yeah, you're going to need to get caught up on that stuff fairly quickly; technically, not knowing the Camarilla Traditions is actually enough justification to stake you and leave you out for sunrise.


And my character's insanity is Sanguinary Animism.Ooooh, nice choice. :smallbiggrin:


His disciplines are his clan ones (Highest is Obfuscate at 4, others at 3) plus presence (2, I wanted Dread Gaze as a get out of combat free card), and he does have one other trick in that he's got some oracular ability that I don't think many people know about.Very nice, though Auspex 4 is pretty sweet as well. Telepathy can be extremely useful.


Influences are currently just police and street, although I'm going to invest in occult to try and expand on the oracle thing. Sounds good. :smallsmile:


I wish I had animalism, since if I could turn the local animals into allies that'd be sweet. Better talk to some Nos about learning that...Might I make a suggestion? Talk to the Gangrel about it, if you can find one still. Nossies can be nasty to make deals with.


I don't actually know if there's Sabbat in my domain (I... I hope I'd have noticed if they were), but there's been tension between the Cam and the Sabbat and my domain wouldn't be a bad place for them to get closer to the more important ones.I see. Still, then, best to make preparations for such an incursion.


How would I actually go about getting dirt on people? Obfuscate? Chat up other Malkavians?Most easy part? Just keeping your eyes and ears open. Auspex is amazing for this, though, and Obfuscate's a bundle of fun as well, especially considering how neither of them use a lot of blood like the combat Disciplines.

[Zorzark]

Noted. I'll put Telepathy on my list of what to buy next. I'm sort of blessed/cursed with a number of people who'd like to have me as a tool, so I'm hoping that that'll keep me around long enough to figure things out.

The Giovanni thing's a fun story. Our local Giovanni representative wanted to put on a play as a gift to the prince, but the former Malkavian primogen wouldn't attend unless there was a Malkavian in the production, so yeah. It didn't end up going well, but I was assured that it wasn't my fault and I didn't have to worry about a Giovanni hit on me... I just realized how bad that sounds, but I'm pretty sure he was being honest and wants to be able to have influence over me, which won't happen if I'm dead.

[The Glyphstone]

Having a Giovanni hit on you and having the Giovanni put a hit out on you are both equally bad for different reasons.

[Zorzark]

Hmm. Note: Seduce the Giovanni. This can only end well.

[Randomonioum]

I'm not sure they'd know what to do with someone outside the family!

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not sure they'd know what to do with someone outside the family!

doesn't that only apply to Embracing new vampires from the Giovanni bloodline? Recreational activities are another ballgame entirely.

[comicshorse]

Remember the Prince (unless he is insanely powerful) is only the Prince because all the Kindred in the city say he is. You are now the voice for all the Malkavian Kindred, that is influence which can be used (although subtley). Contact the other Primogen ( you are a resource so you can bet they'll want to talk to you), see how popular the Prince is, who has what and who wants what. See if there is a Primogen Council and if there is be damn sure to be there when it meets.
Find the Nosferatu, they buy and sell information and doing both is a good way to get ahead.
The Prince's job is to uphold the Traditions, one of which is Domain. If the Sabbat are threatning your Domain its his job to protect you. Find out who the Sherrif is and how to contact him.
If the Seneschal is really going to rearrange Domains this will be very unpopular so he either has a good reason or is bribing important people with better Domains. Try and make sure you are one of the ones being bribed, or if its really unpopular rally support against it, you'd make a good Seneschal right ?


The Giovanni do embrace outside the family into several other families ( Dunsiryn, Milliner, Putescha) they are however notorious fro keeping their ..... affections within the family and not always to the still moving family :smalleek:

[TheCountAlucard]

...unless he is insanely powerful...Two thousand years old; that should speak for itself. :smalleek:

[comicshorse]

Two thousand years old; that should speak for itself. :smalleek:

Depends how often he's gone into Torpor but yeah odds are he's pretty tough

[Zorzark]

Oooh yeah. I had to make a social challenge against the prince to determine how well the Giovanni play went over. When we tied all the ST said was "I have more social traits than you." Then afterwards there was somebody lurking around backstage with Obfuscate 8 :smalleek: I am not going to screw with either the prince or his seneschal.

[comicshorse]

Obfuscate 8 !
Time to start toadying to the Prince :smallsmile:

[skywalker]

Very nice, though Auspex 4 is pretty sweet as well. Telepathy can be extremely useful.

"Oh! You think it's funny what I hear when I drink? Perhaps if you had a more personal experience with the matter...?"

Also, "Do I really look like a guy with a plan?" should be your motto. I leave you in the hands of these far more experienced and instructive friends.

[MickJay]

Also, "Do I really look like a guy with a plan?" should be your motto. I leave you in the hands of these far more experienced and instructive friends.

I don't know, there are few things which put people on their toes more than someone appearing innocent or too incompetent in Vampire. By default, any vampire elder has at least three major plots and/or conspiracies going on at the time, plus a dozen of minor or short term plans. He's probably a pawn in at least three other major plots of those above him on the bloodsucking chain (and if he's smart, he pretends that he doesn't know about them, if he knows about them in the first place). It's pretty much expected of you to plot and scheme. However, if you can make your plots appear to be harmless, or directed against common enemy (or enemies), you should be fine. That said, never trust anyone with anything that could be used against you, and remember that if someone is acting friendly, it's much more likely that they want something from you than that they genuinely like you.

Finally, remember that the vampire society runs on favors and honor debts. Act with what goes for honor among the bloodsuckers, aid others (ideally when it costs you little or nothing) and you can earn some respect. Show lack of gratitude, and you might find yourself left without help later on.

[skywalker]

I don't know, there are few things which put people on their toes more than someone appearing innocent or too incompetent in Vampire. By default, any vampire elder has at least three major plots and/or conspiracies going on at the time, plus a dozen of minor or short term plans. He's probably a pawn in at least three other major plots of those above him on the bloodsucking chain (and if he's smart, he pretends that he doesn't know about them, if he knows about them in the first place). It's pretty much expected of you to plot and scheme. However, if you can make your plots appear to be harmless, or directed against common enemy (or enemies), you should be fine. That said, never trust anyone with anything that could be used against you, and remember that if someone is acting friendly, it's much more likely that they want something from you than that they genuinely like you.

Finally, remember that the vampire society runs on favors and honor debts. Act with what goes for honor among the bloodsuckers, aid others (ideally when it costs you little or nothing) and you can earn some respect. Show lack of gratitude, and you might find yourself left without help later on.

Yes, but he wants to put people on their toes so they'll stop pushing him around. Malks are supposed to be what gives vampires nightmares, after all.

"If there's one Malkavian, listen to him. Two? Watch your back. Three? Run."

[Zorzark]

The next session isn't for a while, but I've taken all the advice here into account and plan on partially blood bonding the mortal sheriff of my domain. It's a quiet part of the city, so I figure that'll be more subtle than going for gang control. And in good news the STs told me that there doesn't seem to be anything going on there so far, so I'm going to try and set myself up to get free run of the place in mortal society.

This still leaves my issues with the seneschal, but I'm going to try and deal with that at the next game by standing up to him about how he's not delegating the Cam's issues with the Sabbat very well by giving them to me to take care of. Little of it has to do with the Malkavians; it's either the Toreadors' problem (one of their members was kidnapped, and now the Cam wants her dead since the Sabbat've had her for months), or the Sheriff's. I mean, sure it'll probably end up with me dead if that's what he's going for, but I'd rather not.

I'll let you guys know how it goes if you're interested >.>

[Dire Ferret]

I'd be interested in reading about it.

[a_humble_lich]

As would I.

[Teln]

I'm going to third that.