The bag of unlimited marbles

[Yeturs]

A factotum I play wants a bag with infinite marbles inside it. For tripping people up and stuff.

I would want a sack that either produced marbles on opening (not unlike a bag of tricks does with animals) or a bag that spews marbles (akin to decanter of endless water) or a bag that let me command word all the marbles back into it after a fight or what have you.

So the question is this. What would those items cost? I know of the guidelines, but what spells would you use for marbles?

(haven't tried very hard, just an idea the struck me. Thanks!)

[Hirax]

I'd probably just rule it the same as a decanter of endless water

[NNescio]

Bag Of Endless Caltrops, Magic Item Compendium, costs 2300 gp. Use it as a base.

[Yeturs]

Nice, thanks.

[Hirax]

NNescio's suggestion is more on target probably, as far as price. In the MIC, there are a few points at which they overtly admit lots of DMG magic items are overpriced, the decanter of endless water probably falls into that category.

[Zaq]

The A&EG lists marbles at 2 sp for 2 pounds. 2 silver is amazingly cheap. 1 gp will get you 10 pounds of marbles. 3 gp 4 sp will get you more than a 10 STR human can carry as a light load. 200 gp (which is the cost of a masterwork suit of scale mail or a non-masterwork suit of splint mail) will get you one ton of marbles. For the cost of a +1 club (2,300 gp) you can have 11.5 tons of marbles.

My point is that a functionally endless supply of marbles (at least in the "when I reach into this bag, I will always have a handful of marbles to draw out" sense, if not the "if I turn this bag upside down, I can flood the entire dungeon with marbles" sense . . . though that's not entirely impossible) is essentially free aside from the cost of the extradimensional storage. Marbles are astoundingly cheap. You'd just be paying for the storage space. Well, that or a mule-drawn cart. (Fun fact: a mule and a cart together cost 23 gp, which is 230 lb of marbles. A medium creature with 16 STR has a heavy load upper limit of 230 lb before getting into the push/drag rules.)

EDIT:
NNescio's suggestion is more on target probably, as far as price. In the MIC, there are a few points at which they overtly admit lots of DMG magic items are overpriced, the decanter of endless water probably falls into that category.

I would argue that the DoEW is, while expensive, arguably worth it. It's very, very useful for patient and crafty players, and it really doesn't take much to say "you know, we have a literally infinite amount of water here. It'd take a while, but we could just flood the damn place."

[DwarfFighter]

Its cartoonish charm notwithstanding, the tactic of tripping an enemy using marbles requires some really optimal conditions.

First of all, the subject needs to actually step on the marbles. Unless you can magically direct the marbles to move under-foot of the subject your best bet is to saturate the area with marbles. Assuming that one marble per square inch is sufficient, you'll need 3600 marbles for a 5 ft. square if the marbles are perfectly distributed.

Second, the marbles must be deposited on a flat and horizontal surface otherwise they'll just roll away.

Third, the surface needs to be smooth and hard so that the marbles can roll when stepped on - they'll sink into a soft surface like dirt, or get stuck in the cracks and pits of natural stone.

Finally, the subject needs to have footwear that can be conveyed by the rolling marbles, preferably smooth-soled shoes or boots.

Even if all these conditions are met, what are the expected results? The comical image of a man falling on his back after stepping on a banana peel is somewhat flawed: People tend to walk forwards by placing their foot on the ground and applying force backwards. A subject stepping on the marbles would more likely fall on his face as his foot fails to find friction and goes flying back out from under him. If performing a circuitous turn, he'd likely fall on his side, and if attempting to halt his forward movement he might fall on his back. No, the most likely result seems to me to be that the subject momentarily slips and stumbles.

-DF

[Otherworld Odd]

Its cartoonish charm notwithstanding, the tactic of tripping an enemy using marbles requires some really optimal conditions.

First of all, the subject needs to actually step on the marbles. Unless you can magically direct the marbles to move under-foot of the subject your best bet is to saturate the area with marbles. Assuming that one marble per square inch is sufficient, you'll need 3600 marbles for a 5 ft. square if the marbles are perfectly distributed.

Second, the marbles must be deposited on a flat and horizontal surface otherwise they'll just roll away.

Third, the surface needs to be smooth and hard so that the marbles can roll when stepped on - they'll sink into a soft surface like dirt, or get stuck in the cracks and pits of natural stone.

Finally, the subject needs to have footwear that can be conveyed by the rolling marbles, preferably smooth-soled shoes or boots.

Even if all these conditions are met, what are the expected results? The comical image of a man falling on his back after stepping on a banana peel is somewhat flawed: People tend to walk forwards by placing their foot on the ground and applying force backwards. A subject stepping on the marbles would more likely fall on his face as his foot fails to find friction and goes flying back out from under him. If performing a circuitous turn, he'd likely fall on his side, and if attempting to halt his forward movement he might fall on his back. No, the most likely result seems to me to be that the subject momentarily slips and stumbles.

-DF

It's still funny as hell.


Personally, I don't think it's as hard as you think it is. Marbles are perfectly round, so easily slipped upon. Seriously. Go try stepping on some marbles and not just one or two. It definitely slips you up. And if you're in the middle of combat and not expecting it, distracted by something else perhaps you're a prime target for slippage. I completely agree with the terrain rules however, even though I think it could work on natural stone. Anyways, it's a fantasy game so the laws of physics don't apply here. Bad me for analyzing this *smacks self*.


Edit: Also, banana peels can be slipped on too. One day a friend and I were walking and he stepped on a banana peel, not knowing it was there and fell on his ass. Funniest thing I've ever seen.

[DwarfFighter]

It's very, very useful for patient and crafty players, and it really doesn't take much to say "you know, we have a literally infinite amount of water here. It'd take a while, but we could just flood the damn place."

I know it takes the players as much effort to say "We climb the mountain" as it takes for them to say "We wait". However, time is a factor here.


At most the decanter "decants" 30 gallons per round in a 20 ft. long stream, 1 ft. wide.
Assuming this is a U.S. liquid gallon (thanks, Wikipedia) at 3.785 liters, 30 gallons is 113,55 liters.

A single cubic foot is about 28 liters, so a 5 ft. cube is about 3500 liters. It would take about 31 rounds to fill a single 5ft. cube - let's call that 3 minutes per 5 ft. cube.

(The volume of the geyser stream is about 560 liters, assuming 20 x 1 ft. cubes. While this is the largest release of water, it is probably not a a solid stream - the volume of the stream is not consistent with the volume of water. It's not important for the purposes of flooding a space, but it may serve to bring attention to just how little water is in the stream at any given moment: the geyser releases its 114 liters over a period of 6 seconds)

Let's say you want to fill a 30 ft. by 30 ft. chamber - a fairly standard encounter area. If it's 10 ft. high, that's 1800 5 ft. cubes. That works out to about 3-3/4 days.

And that doesn't even take into account seepage.

While the amount of water is infinite, the PC's time isn't.

-DF

[Greenish]

Also, banana peels can be slipped on too. One day a friend and I were walking and he stepped on a banana peel, not knowing it was there and fell on his ass. Funniest thing I've ever seen.Classic. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, even if marbles don't trip someone up, they can still help, since most monsters (or people) don't have five ranks in Balance.


Also, have all PCs be warforged. No need to eat, not getting older (well, older than middle-aged anyhow), you'll literally have all the time in the world.

[hewhosaysfish]

The A&EG lists marbles at 2 sp for 2 pounds. 2 silver is amazingly cheap. 1 gp will get you 10 pounds of marbles. 3 gp 4 sp will get you more than a 10 STR human can carry as a light load. 200 gp (which is the cost of a masterwork suit of scale mail or a non-masterwork suit of splint mail) will get you one ton of marbles. For the cost of a +1 club (2,300 gp) you can have 11.5 tons of marbles.

My point is that a functionally endless supply of marbles is essentially free aside from the cost of the extradimensional storage. Marbles are astoundingly cheap. You'd just be paying for the storage space.EDIT:


Heward's Handy Haversack is 2000gp and can carry 120lbs.
120lbs of marbles would be 120sp=12gp.
Total 2012gp.
~17gp per pound of marbles

Alteratively, a Bag of Holding (Type 1) costs 2500gp and can be filled with 250lbs of marbles for 25gp.
Usually, I prefer the HHH because of that "the thing you want is always on top" clause but that doesn't matter if you're filling the bag with completely identical objects.
Total 2525gp.
~10gp per pound of marbles


Also:
BoH II: 5050gp -> 500lb of marbles (10gp per pound)
BoH III: 7500gp -> 1000lb of marbles (7.5gp per pound)
BoH IV: 10150gp -> 1500lb of marbles (>7gp per pound)

[Darrin]

Bag Of Endless Caltrops, Magic Item Compendium, costs 2300 gp. Use it as a base.

Not really "Endless", more like 5/day.

I'd look at Gauntlet of Infinite Blades (6500 GP, MIC) or Gloves of Endless Javelins (7000 GP, MIC) for cost comparisons.



First of all, the subject needs to actually step on the marbles. Unless you can magically direct the marbles to move under-foot of the subject your best bet is to saturate the area with marbles. Assuming that one marble per square inch is sufficient, you'll need 3600 marbles for a 5 ft. square if the marbles are perfectly distributed.
[...]
etc.


While these are all valid and reasonable arguments, the rules in A&EG trump real-world physics. A 2-lb bag of marbles can cover a 5' square. They generally work like caltrops, so spreading them into a square is a standard action. The target gets a Ref save for entering/fighting, and the Balance skill in the PHB is referenced, so that square is treated as a "slippery surface". That means it's treated like difficult terrain, and although they can move out of that square without penalty, if they're attacked while standing in that square, they're treated as flat-footed unless they have 5 or more ranks in Balance.