Linear Guild at Full Power?

[Cisturn]

It's in the title, do you think over the next few strips we'll get to see all the members of the Linear Guild? We've seen Thog and ZZ'dtri and we know that Nale and Sabine probably aren't far behind. But I want to see all the former members of the Linear Guild too. Leeky and Pompey blasting spells from the top of the Colosseum, a new Kobold fighting with Belkar, and maybe a confrontation between Hilgya and Durkon in the library. Does anyone else want this or think it's possible?

[Ancalagon]

No, I doubt the kobolds come back.

And if there's a "confrontation" in the library between Durkon and Hilgya, it won't get shown in detail.

[Asta Kask]

No, I doubt the kobolds come back.

And if there's a "confrontation" in the library between Durkon and Hilgya, it won't get shown in detail.

Damn this PG-13 rating! :smallbiggrin:

[BlackestOfMages]

lol, that'd be true, darn you pg 13

TBH, I'm expecting 2 new mooks to fight with durkon/belkar, as pompey and Leeky kinda jerkassed Nale over, and you've seen his ego...

[Swordpriest]

The ironic thing is, that Leeky was one of the most powerful characters ever to be in the Linear Guild. :smallbiggrin: If they somehow got him back, it would greatly increase their strength. Of course, Zz'dtri isn't bad either, as we can see from the action so far. Haley's out of commission and V isn't looking very healthy.

[Deuce]

No, I doubt the kobolds come back.



Undead Yikyik.

[martianmister]

Undead Yikyik.

Resurrected Yikyik.

[Ancalagon]

Undead Yikyik.

I'm aware there are ingame means to have him back. I just doubt it happens.

[RunicLGB]

I'd like to post a crazy theory about the new liner guild kobold being the Oracle.

Since this seems as good a place as any I'll go ahead and list evidence:
1. He hates Belkar.
2. He knows pretty much everything, including how horrible Blekar has been to other Kobolds, where Belkar is at any time, where the linear guild is, what they want, how they will go about getting (or failing to get) wat they want...
3. He's gotta be somewhere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html). (Edit: Found it!)
4. He'd be a pretty good opposite for Belkar. Even though hes not really a good fighter, knowing wha Belkar would try every step of the way and always having the right magic item could give him the advantage.
5. It would be Funny.

[Zevox]

I wouldn't bet on Pompey or Leaky. Their departure from the Guild seemed rather definitive - they're not going to be interested in rejoining, and I doubt Nale would go out of his way to pick them up given they were last seen in Cliffport, a long way from the Western Continent.

Hilgya we might see, but I don't know if I'd expect another Kobold or some such for Belkar's opposite. After Nale's remark about dead weight on the team when they escaped Azure City, I don't think he's gone out of his way to restock the Guild's evil-opposite theme, and Zz'dtri's rejoining was probably just happy coincidence, as would be Hilgya's if she did.

Zevox

[FlawedParadigm]

We've seen Nale and Sabine, except they've been calling themselves Gannji and Enor; Sabine already naturally has wings so shapeshifting into something else with them isn't a stretch. We've seen Zz'dtri can cast illusions, so I can't think of a definitive reason Nale couldn't be "Gannji." They both seems to have the same knack for surviving.

[RunicLGB]

We've seen Nale and Sabine, except they've been calling themselves Gannji and Enor; Sabine already naturally has wings so shapeshifting into something else with them isn't a stretch. We've seen Zz'dtri can cast illusions, so I can't think of a definitive reason Nale couldn't be "Gannji." They both seems to have the same knack for surviving.

I'm gonna go with no.

For many many reasons, culminating with the way they act in every comic we've seen them.

Just no.

[Zevox]

I'm gonna go with no.

For many many reasons, culminating with the way they act in every comic we've seen them.

Just no.
Yeah, that one's up there with the "Nale is disguised as Tarquin" theory. Especially when you consider the scene where Ganji was trying to convince Enor to kill him. Yeah, wouldn't make a damn bit of sense if they were Nale and Sabine in disguise.

Zevox

[FlawedParadigm]

I'll go you one further. We know Girard had a bet with other people about when Soon's Paladins would be by to check on the gate on the Western Continent. It could be that Serini (Belkar's opposite; good aligned halfling female) and Girard (Durkon's opposite; loves freedom and opposes authority, compared to Durkon's preference for law and order) are new LG members.

I mean this quite a bit less seriously than the Enor/Gannji bit, but after having seen how far out of left field Zzd'tri came, I'm not willing to rule this out on current evidence.

[FlawedParadigm]

Yeah, that one's up there with the "Nale is disguised as Tarquin" theory. Especially when you consider the scene where Ganji was trying to convince Enor to kill him. Yeah, wouldn't make a damn bit of sense if they were Nale and Sabine in disguise.

Zevox

You mean behaving in almost exactly the opposite way people would expect the normal you to behave is bad for a disguise? Hm.

[Fire]

Imho, having already ZZ'dtri makes a return of Pompey unlikely, and since him and Leaky seemed happy to stick together, this makes hard a return of Leaky too.

[Xacal]

I'd like to post a crazy theory about the new liner guild kobold being the Oracle.

Since this seems as good a place as any I'll go ahead and list evidence:
1. He hates Belkar.
2. He knows pretty much everything, including how horrible Blekar has been to other Kobolds, where Belkar is at any time, where the linear guild is, what they want, how they will go about getting (or failing to get) wat they want...
3. He's gotta be somewhere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html). (Edit: Found it!)
4. He'd be a pretty good opposite for Belkar. Even though hes not really a good fighter, knowing wha Belkar would try every step of the way and always having the right magic item could give him the advantage.
5. It would be Funny.

The Oracle didn't actually have to many combat abilities per se, did he? No cleric levels, just a standard snarky seer. :smallbiggrin:
Of course, he wasn't home last time we saw the Sunken Valley when Xykon was there, right?

[Dire Moose]

Regarding the kobold, we already have Kilkil, who fits the Yikyik/Yokyok pattern in name, at least.

But I'm personally quite interested to see who their new divine caster is.

[Crisis21]

Warning! Epileptic tree ahead!

Yikyik was ressurected by the guild, is the kobold in the prison, and will kill Belkar and turn his head into a hat.

[Zevox]

You mean behaving in almost exactly the opposite way people would expect the normal you to behave is bad for a disguise? Hm.
First, since when has Nale been any good at disguises? His acting when he was impersonating Elan was piss-poor.

Second, do you seriously think that, in that kind of situation, Nale would tell Sabine to kill him? As opposed to, say, having her shape-shift out of her shackles and fly them both to safety? Seriously, in a life-threatening situation like that, Nale's response would never be "kill me," no matter what sort of disguise he was using. Nor would Sabine stubbornly waste their time the way Enor did by refusing to do as Ganji asked while offering no alternative. Their actions in that situation simply could never possibly be explained in a manner consistent with Nale and Sabine's characters.

Zevox

[RunicLGB]

The Oracle didn't actually have to many combat abilities per se, did he? No cleric levels, just a standard snarky seer. :smallbiggrin:
Of course, he wasn't home last time we saw the Sunken Valley when Xykon was there, right?

I'm pretty sure I covered that in there. Lets think of it this way, he knows the future, and not just only when he enters some kind of freaky trance thing. He casually and constantly views the future the same way we see the present. There is no way to surprise him. The only reason Belkar was able to kill him was cuz he knew it would happen and he can't go against the future.

Now the next way he dies is by druid mauling, nt be halfling daggers. And he knows Belkar is going to die, and how. Wouldn't he have a blast sneaking up on the halfling, telling him to lick some orange balls, and then killing him, nastily, predicting and countering everything Belkar tries te entire time?

That my friends, is revenge. And a good way to get that level of expert back.

[weeping eagle]

But I'm personally quite interested to see who their new divine caster is.Hmm, if only we had already been introduced to a new divine caster in this arc...

[Crisis21]

I'm pretty sure I covered that in there. Lets think of it this way, he knows the future, and not just only when he enters some kind of freaky trance thing. He casually and constantly views the future the same way we see the present. There is no way to surprise him. The only reason Belkar was able to kill him was cuz he knew it would happen and he can't go against the future.

Now the next way he dies is by druid mauling, nt be halfling daggers. And he knows Belkar is going to die, and how. Wouldn't he have a blast sneaking up on the halfling, telling him to lick some orange balls, and then killing him, nastily, predicting and countering everything Belkar tries te entire time?

That my friends, is revenge. And a good way to get that level of expert back.

Not dodging the daggers wasn't entirely due to knowing the future. The oracle has essentially zip in the way of combat ability, and not a whole lot of hp if one stab can kill him.

In a straight-up fight against Belkar, his death is a foregone conclusion.


Hmm, if only we had already been introduced to a new divine caster in this arc...

Unless Malack turns out to be another LG member in disguise, it's not him. Nale killed his children. You don't just forgive or forget something like that.

[RunicLGB]

Not dodging the daggers wasn't entirely due to knowing the future. The oracle has essentially zip in the way of combat ability, and not a whole lot of hp if one stab can kill him.

In a straight-up fight against Belkar, his death is a foregone conclusion.


Oracle's shopping list: Wand of Shatter (no more pesky dulled Knives), Wand of protection from arrows (no throwing rocks either), Potion of Porcupine Elixer (go ahead, grapple me), Assorted potions to make Oracle stronger or boost defenses, and then he just needs an assortment of items to kill Belkar with, Wand of Magic missle (no Evasion or high Touch AC for you), dancing weapons...

Seriously he makes mountains of money telling the future and can predict exactly wat he would need to acomplish any task. If the oracle wants to do it, and the future (the giant) says he does, then he does.

And if anyone wants to bring up that he's not a spell casting character since hes an expert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html), then please look one comic further and see that expert using a wand of dismissal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html). Use Magic Device works good.

So in other words, it is a forgone conclusion, and I believe it goes something like this: "Belkar will draw his last breath, EVER, before the end of the year."

[Dr.Epic]

Damn this PG-13 rating! :smallbiggrin:

I doubt Durkon would be involved that way with a woman he knows is married.

[FlawedParadigm]

First, since when has Nale been any good at disguises? His acting when he was impersonating Elan was piss-poor.

Second, do you seriously think that, in that kind of situation, Nale would tell Sabine to kill him? As opposed to, say, having her shape-shift out of her shackles and fly them both to safety? Seriously, in a life-threatening situation like that, Nale's response would never be "kill me," no matter what sort of disguise he was using. Nor would Sabine stubbornly waste their time the way Enor did by refusing to do as Ganji asked while offering no alternative. Their actions in that situation simply could never possibly be explained in a manner consistent with Nale and Sabine's characters.

Zevox

Valid points if we assume Nale never learns from his mistakes. He could actually get character development like every other recurring character in the comic though, too. His acting when impersonating Elan was piss-poor in part because he couldn't resist the urge to mock the brother he hates. Pretending to be someone the Order doesn't actually know (or someone who may not even exist) would be a lot easier.

Now, I admit the arena behaviour would be against type - if Nale weren't the sort to prepare things like escape contingencies. Keep in mind his deeds in Cliffport went so far as to predict peoples' emotional responses to several of the things he was going to do. The only things that caught him off guard were Haley's aphasia (which he had no way of knowing about at the time he was plotting) and Elan's return which was so (realistically, although not narratively) unlikely it had to be explained in the past tense. If Nale knew that Sabine was going to save his bacon anyhow, that whole "Kill me" thing just becomes funny.

The fact that Enor is rock dumb makes me suspicious too; if Sabine wanted to disguise herself in a way that wasn't going to make the Order suspicious, hiding her cunning nature would go a long way to preventing discovery.

I'm not saying this is likely by any means, merely possible. Although the fact that every time someone DOES successfully predict a RichTwist, they're booed down in the forums makes me think it is actually a little more likely. :op

[Gitman00]

Valid points if we assume Nale never learns from his mistakes. He could actually get character development like every other recurring character in the comic though, too. His acting when impersonating Elan was piss-poor in part because he couldn't resist the urge to mock the brother he hates. Pretending to be someone the Order doesn't actually know (or someone who may not even exist) would be a lot easier.

Now, I admit the arena behaviour would be against type - if Nale weren't the sort to prepare things like escape contingencies. Keep in mind his deeds in Cliffport went so far as to predict peoples' emotional responses to several of the things he was going to do. The only things that caught him off guard were Haley's aphasia (which he had no way of knowing about at the time he was plotting) and Elan's return which was so (realistically, although not narratively) unlikely it had to be explained in the past tense. If Nale knew that Sabine was going to save his bacon anyhow, that whole "Kill me" thing just becomes funny.

The fact that Enor is rock dumb makes me suspicious too; if Sabine wanted to disguise herself in a way that wasn't going to make the Order suspicious, hiding her cunning nature would go a long way to preventing discovery.

I'm not saying this is likely by any means, merely possible. Although the fact that every time someone DOES successfully predict a RichTwist, they're booed down in the forums makes me think it is actually a little more likely. :op

And Nale eating maggots? And Sabine suddenly having a lightning breath weapon? And Nale allowing himself to be put into a situation where only a deus ex machina can save his life? And Sabine, a demon, actually weeping at the prospect of killing Nale? Come on. There are plausible theories, and there are implausible theories, and then there's this. If this turned out to be right, it would be the biggest ass pull in history.

[Zevox]

Valid points if we assume Nale never learns from his mistakes.
Considering his ego, a valid assumption to make.


His acting when impersonating Elan was piss-poor in part because he couldn't resist the urge to mock the brother he hates.
Um, no. He wasn't mocking Elan when he routinely used vocabulary well outside Elan's normal ability. Nor was he mocking Elan when he displayed clear distress at the thought of Roy teleporting back to Cliffport to see "Nale" in prison here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html). Nor was he mocking Elan when he forgot Belkar's name (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html), or literally said the group should be suspicious of him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html). He's just plain a bad actor, who happened to be very lucky that the Order all have poor Sense Motive skills.


If Nale knew that Sabine was going to save his bacon anyhow, that whole "Kill me" thing just becomes funny.
That assumes they were giving a performance of some sort, which is ridiculous both because of Nale's aforementioned poor acting and because they're in the middle of a massive arena packed with people and would thus have to be shouting to be heard by anyone, which they weren't. Plus given how imminent their deaths were at the time, if they could have made an escape attempt, they would have done so, not wasted their time on a joke nobody would get and which would be bringing them closer to death every second.


The fact that Enor is rock dumb makes me suspicious too;
The fact that a half-Ogre/half-Dragon is dumb makes you suspicious? Really?


I'm not saying this is likely by any means, merely possible.
And I am arguing that it is not even possible, as many things would make no sense if that were the case.


Although the fact that every time someone DOES successfully predict a RichTwist, they're booed down in the forums makes me think it is actually a little more likely. :op
I'm genuinely curious here: when was the last time that happened? Because I cannot recall. The last major event that could be construed as a "twist" that I recall being predicted was Qarr offering V a "deal with the devil" situation which would lead to her prophecy coming true, and that wasn't booed down, but widely accepted as plausible.

Zevox

[FlawedParadigm]

I'm genuinely curious here: when was the last time that happened? Because I cannot recall. The last major event that could be construed as a "twist" that I recall being predicted was Qarr offering V a "deal with the devil" situation which would lead to her prophecy coming true, and that wasn't booed down, but widely accepted as plausible.

Two words: Ian Starshine.

[Zevox]

Two words: Ian Starshine.
:smallconfused: What about him?

Zevox

[Swordpriest]

I doubt Durkon would be involved that way with a woman he knows is married.

Agreed. Besides which, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". If she shows up again, Hilgya will be out for vengeance on Durkon, not looking to cozy up to him.

[Swordpriest]

:smallconfused: What about him?

Zevox

FlawedParadigm has a point; Ian Starshine was identified by a number of people before the "reveal", and the thread with the identification turned fairly venomous. The people who said that the old prisoner was Ian Starshine were actually called idiots by a handful of regular forum posters, in some detail.

With that said, I don't think Enor and Gannji could remotely have anything to do with Nale and Sabine. The reason? They had Elan prisoner back in the city, then proceeded to hand him over to the Empress. If Nale had Elan prisoner, then he'd be figuring out how best to exact revenge, not handing him over to someone else for a couple of lousy gold pieces.

[FlawedParadigm]

FlawedParadigm has a point; Ian Starshine was identified by a number of people before the "reveal", and the thread with the identification turned fairly venomous. The people who said that the old prisoner was Ian Starshine were actually called idiots by a handful of regular forum posters, in some detail.

With that said, I don't think Enor and Gannji could remotely have anything to do with Nale and Sabine. The reason? They had Elan prisoner back in the city, then proceeded to hand him over to the Empress. If Nale had Elan prisoner, then he'd be figuring out how best to exact revenge, not handing him over to someone else for a couple of lousy gold pieces.

Which brings me to my last point; you're entirely correct that nothing I've said would make any sense if it was actually Nale and Sabine capturing Elan...unless Nale is, in fact, working with Tarquin. Of course, Tarquin would have to be doing this without Malack's consent (or probably knowledge)...but we know he's slick enough to pull that off. Now why would Tarquin or Nale team up to humiliate/destroy Elan? Well Nale would take any help he could get, probably. Tarquin? I'm unsure. He's already had a chance to kill Elan in their duel, so it can't be death he's after. Maybe something more sinister than mere death...

Or maybe they'd kill Haley, to see if having the person he loved most taken from him would be enough to make him consider a life of evil with them.

[BlackestOfMages]

We've seen Nale and Sabine, except they've been calling themselves Gannji and Enor; Sabine already naturally has wings so shapeshifting into something else with them isn't a stretch. We've seen Zz'dtri can cast illusions, so I can't think of a definitive reason Nale couldn't be "Gannji." They both seems to have the same knack for surviving.

don't forget Nale's an illusion focused sorcerer himself, in fact if one of them did the ilusions, it's probably Nale

not quite, Gannji seems to actual care about Enor, and is perfectly willing to have himself killed so Enor can get away, then hoping for a resurection at a later date. that's something Nale would never do. The toehr thing is, the arena itself isn't magic proof, so if they'd wanted to escape the death from a bajillion arrows, sabnine would've just planeshifted them for a while.

also, the gladatorial arena has an anti-magc field, meaning that the illusion would've dropped the moment they entered the holding pen. not sure about sabine shapeshifting, but I think so.

also, Enor's dragon breath - something sabiine can't copy even if she shapeshifts...

[ThePhantasm]

The more I think about this, the more I want it to be a 3-way battle: Nale vs. Elan vs. Tarquin. No Nale-Tarquin alliance (though I'm sure Tarquin knows more than he is letting on).

[John Cribati]

don't forget Nale's an illusion focused sorcerer himself

He specializes in enchantment spells. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

[Ancalagon]

The more I think about this, the more I want it to be a 3-way battle: Nale vs. Elan vs. Tarquin. No Nale-Tarquin alliance (though I'm sure Tarquin knows more than he is letting on).

IF that battle happens, I'm quite sure we will see changing alliances during it. More than one.
That'd be quite interesting. ;)

[Jay R]

FlawedParadigm has a point; Ian Starshine was identified by a number of people before the "reveal", and the thread with the identification turned fairly venomous. The people who said that the old prisoner was Ian Starshine were actually called idiots by a handful of regular forum posters, in some detail.

But we have been equally scornful of a thousand absurd theories that were then proved false.

If you want to impress me with the prediction of Ian, then show me an individual who predicted that he was Ian, that the champion was Thog, that Enor would face Gannji, that the green-haired elf was Zz'dtri, and who has not made any false predictions.

Until then, identifying Ian simply shows that if every new character is "identified" as almost any character not on screen, then one of the guesses will eventually be true -- not by analysis, but by saturation.

[Swordpriest]

But we have been equally scornful of a thousand absurd theories that were then proved false.

If you want to impress me with the prediction of Ian, then show me an individual who predicted that he was Ian, that the champion was Thog, that Enor would face Gannji, that the green-haired elf was Zz'dtri, and who has not made any false predictions.

Until then, identifying Ian simply shows that if every new character is "identified" as almost any character not on screen, then one of the guesses will eventually be true -- not by analysis, but by saturation.

Well, actually, it was by analysis, since the person in question even went so far as to find a picture of Ian and the then-unknown prisoner, put the two pictures side by side, and find the points of resemblance. And they were mocked far more for it than the saturation people ever are, and they were right.

I agree that most of the theories are utterly idiotic. However, that one was fairly well reasoned and had some supporting evidence, and it drew more opprobrium than most theories. And then it was correct, so again, FlawedParadigm is correct in this at least.

By the way, what on Earth is that thing about the string of predictions? :smallconfused: Are you trying to say that one accurate prediction based on analysis (for once) is invalid unless the person also predicts everything else in the strip?

[FlawedParadigm]

I should further point out that with the exception of Zz'dtri, all of those events were predicted (on the forum, let alone lurkers) by at least one person, and I'm pretty sure they were all blatantly told by forum "experts" that they were wrong at the time.

[Nilan8888]

I'm going on a limb here and guess that Zz'drti is the only member that's rejoined.

I DO think we'll see Hilgya again, but not as a member of the guild. It seemed to me she didn't like being in the guild much anyway. We may encounter her somewhere in the northlands, but I think she isn't going back to Nale. I'm not certain she was even evil.

As for revenge on Durkon, MAYBE -- but we've seen no indication she'd want anything like that. Yeah, he broke her heart, but if she wanted revenge she could have rejoined the guild some time ago.

Leeky and Pompey are gone, I think, and I figure Nale won't even WANT them back. They seemed to want to go off and do their own thing. Again, maybe we'll see them again some day, but not as members of the guild.

There might be new members, but presently I think the guild really is just the 4 of them right now. With Zz'drti apparently now coming back as a full member that won't leave again until the storyline kills him off.

[Raistlin82]

Guys, ZZ'dtri is here because he never stopped working for Nale.

Pompey and Leeky definitely stopped.

Hilgya? She never started.

[Jay R]

By the way, what on Earth is that thing about the string of predictions? :smallconfused: Are you trying to say that one accurate prediction based on analysis (for once) is invalid unless the person also predicts everything else in the strip?

Nope - I'm saying that a single correct prediction doesn't erase the flood of false ones I've seen, but a string of correct predictions might.

I've seen lots of carefully reasoned theories here. Most of them were false; one of them was correct. Statistically, that does not indicate that the next one is likely to be correct.

[Fitzclowningham]

I doubt Durkon would be involved that way with a woman he knows is married.

Not to mention "Hell hath no fury..."

If she sees Durkon again, I doubt he'll enjoy the experience.

Edit: Read before you post...the one time I don't, I get what I deserve.

[KillItWithFire]

The more I think about this, the more I want it to be a 3-way battle: Nale vs. Elan vs. Tarquin. No Nale-Tarquin alliance (though I'm sure Tarquin knows more than he is letting on).

If it does turn into a 3-way battle I'm thinking it would be something along the lines of the Will/Jack/Norington fight at the end of pirates 2. At least, in terms of battle progression anyway and who knows, they're all relatively agile perhaps they would use the scenery as much as pirates did.
...Oh I seem to have caught myself on a tangent. first thing that popped into my mind after reading this post.

[ThePhantasm]

If it does turn into a 3-way battle I'm thinking it would be something along the lines of the Will/Jack/Norington fight at the end of pirates 2. At least, in terms of battle progression anyway and who knows, they're all relatively agile perhaps they would use the scenery as much as pirates did.
...Oh I seem to have caught myself on a tangent. first thing that popped into my mind after reading this post.

That would be epic. I really really really hope something like this happens.

[BlackestOfMages]

He specializes in enchantment spells. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

true, but he's also a bard in all but name, which means he probably has spell focus (illusion) to fit the theme going here. C'mon, you need to work on this evil opposites thing they have going.

[sims796]

This is where I disagree, Blackest. We can't assume that he has any Illusion spells until he casts an Illusion spell. He says he specializes in Enchantment spells, he's only been seen using Enchantment spells, so we cannot really assume otherwise.

I mean, yeah, assume what you want, of course, but it won't hold much water until we see him cast an Illusion spell, unless my knowledge is wrong.

[Da'Shain]

true, but he's also a bard in all but name, which means he probably has spell focus (illusion) to fit the theme going here. C'mon, you need to work on this evil opposites thing they have going.Er, are Bards known more for their illusions or for their enhancing and debuffing enchantments? I always thought the latter.

[aldeayeah]

Oracle's shopping list: Wand of Shatter (no more pesky dulled Knives), Wand of protection from arrows (no throwing rocks either), Potion of Porcupine Elixer (go ahead, grapple me), Assorted potions to make Oracle stronger or boost defenses, and then he just needs an assortment of items to kill Belkar with, Wand of Magic missle (no Evasion or high Touch AC for you), dancing weapons...

Seriously he makes mountains of money telling the future and can predict exactly wat he would need to acomplish any task. If the oracle wants to do it, and the future (the giant) says he does, then he does.

And if anyone wants to bring up that he's not a spell casting character since hes an expert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html), then please look one comic further and see that expert using a wand of dismissal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html). Use Magic Device works good.

So in other words, it is a forgone conclusion, and I believe it goes something like this: "Belkar will draw his last breath, EVER, before the end of the year."
I like this theory a lot. The Oracle self-fulfilling his prophecy would be a great twist.

He also thematically follows LG's kobold-as-Belkar's-foil, as has been pointed out, and he does have a personal grudge against him.

There would also have been foreshadowing, what with him being "out" in #737.

Last but not least, the Oracle has another reason to join a strike against the OOTS: he's a worshipper/chosen of Tiamat, who has a very big grudge against V.

[martianmister]

This is where I disagree, Blackest. We can't assume that he has any Illusion spells until he casts an Illusion spell. He says he specializes in Enchantment spells, he's only been seen using Enchantment spells, so we cannot really assume otherwise.

He is used a illusion spell in this strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html)

[Da'Shain]

He is used a illusion spell in this strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html)Pretty sure that's just Prestidigitation, but I could be wrong.

[martianmister]

Pretty sure that's just Prestidigitation, but I could be wrong.

Do you mean this spell?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm

It's talking about "coloring" and making "crude and artificial small objects". I don't really think that's same spell at all... :smallconfused:

[BlackestOfMages]

Oracle's shopping list: Wand of Shatter (no more pesky dulled Knives), Wand of protection from arrows (no throwing rocks either), Potion of Porcupine Elixer (go ahead, grapple me), Assorted potions to make Oracle stronger or boost defenses, and then he just needs an assortment of items to kill Belkar with, Wand of Magic missle (no Evasion or high Touch AC for you), dancing weapons...

Seriously he makes mountains of money telling the future and can predict exactly wat he would need to acomplish any task. If the oracle wants to do it, and the future (the giant) says he does, then he does.

And if anyone wants to bring up that he's not a spell casting character since hes an expert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html), then please look one comic further and see that expert using a wand of dismissal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html). Use Magic Device works good.

So in other words, it is a forgone conclusion, and I believe it goes something like this: "Belkar will draw his last breath, EVER, before the end of the year."

yeah, but tbh, I think with that much cash - as stated - the resurection thing would be easier for him

also, if he'd stoped Belkar from killing him, then he'd have been WRONG, and when your job is to know the future, sliping up fails. also, he wanted to activate the mark of justice.

[Shoelessgdowar]

I like this theory a lot. The Oracle self-fulfilling his prophecy would be a great twist.

He also thematically follows LG's kobold-as-Belkar's-foil, as has been pointed out, and he does have a personal grudge against him.

There would also have been foreshadowing, what with him being "out" in #737.

Last but not least, the Oracle has another reason to join a strike against the OOTS: he's a worshipper/chosen of Tiamat, who has a very big grudge against V.

I can actually accept that the Oracle could be the opposite... except a few misconceptions have been made. 1) The Oracle is fallible, and makes fake predictions to twist his real predictions, 2) He lies, 3) He isn't LG, he can't be LG to worship Tiamat who is LE, he must be LE or NE, 4) The Oracle has yet to make a straight forward prediction, so his prediction about 'Draw Last Breath, EVER, by the end of the year' must be looked at as something more convoluted then Belkar's death.


yeah, but tbh, I think with that much cash - as stated - the resurection thing would be easier for him

also, if he'd stoped Belkar from killing him, then he'd have been WRONG, and when your job is to know the future, sliping up fails. also, he wanted to activate the mark of justice.

No, he was still wrong, if he stopped Belkar he would have been totally wrong. The only reason he did it was to activate the mark to be a spiteful, lying, jerk.

If he were to have been totally accurate his prediction would have been, "No, because you can't kill any of them, even me, because I will be alive after your attempt.

[hamishspence]

3) He isn't LG, he can't be LG to worship Tiamat who is LE, he must be LE or NE,

Core Tiamat has this restriction- but LE deities in general, don't- they can have LN clerics (the Faerun version of Tiamat allows them).

And more importantly- he's not a cleric, he's an Oracle. No specific restrictions are given in this case.

That said- he's never really come across as any kind of Good.

[Absol197]

No, he was still wrong, if he stopped Belkar he would have been totally wrong. The only reason he did it was to activate the mark to be a spiteful, lying, jerk.

If he were to have been totally accurate his prediction would have been, "No, because you can't kill any of them, even me, because I will be alive after your attempt.

I'd disagree here: Belkar definitely did kill the oracle. He had the X's in his eyes and everything. The oracle never predicted that whoever Belkar killed would stay dead, did he? Even if Belkar had accepted the "killed Roy" version of the prophecy, it would still count as being fulfilled even though Roy was resurrected. Coming back from death doesn't preclude dying in the first place (in fact, it kind of requires it), and "to kill" is the action of making someone dead. Did Belkar make the oracle dead? Yes. Prophecy fulfilled. The later fact that the oracle comes back no longer has any bearing on the prophecy.

[Shoelessgdowar]

I'd disagree here: Belkar definitely did kill the oracle. He had the X's in his eyes and everything. The oracle never predicted that whoever Belkar killed would stay dead, did he? Even if Belkar had accepted the "killed Roy" version of the prophecy, it would still count as being fulfilled even though Roy was resurrected. Coming back from death doesn't preclude dying in the first place (in fact, it kind of requires it), and "to kill" is the action of making someone dead. Did Belkar make the oracle dead? Yes. Prophecy fulfilled. The later fact that the oracle comes back no longer has any bearing on the prophecy.

Belkar asked about more then the Oracle. Unless the Oracle said, No, No, No, No, Yes... the Yes is invalid as it did not apply to all of them. To be an accurate prophecy and not a I'll sacrifice myself to make myself look right, Belkar either had to kill all of those he asked about, or the Oracle had to say more then just "Yes". Since the Oracle only said "Yes", the prophecy was false, and therefore the Oracle's death is invalid as proof of the prophecy, since he only did it to try and validate it and to intentionally set off the Mark. The Oracle is a fraud anyway, as Ginko Bilboa was wrong, V said fewer words to no one, Haley never encountered a gift horse unless someone want to try and claim the Trojan Horse was actually a Gift, Durkon has not returned to his homelands in any form, and Xykon was not near Girard's gate next (The Oracle tried to lead Roy into rephrasing the question so he could give a BS Answer like "Xykon will near the gate where you will least expect him to go" which would of course be a cop out since whichever gate they didn't choose would be the one they'd least expect no matter what. For the Oracle to have made a valid prophecy about the Gate he would have had to have said "Neither, he will be near the gate you just left." but the Oracle is a charlatan who gets away with whatever prophecy suits his needs.

[Gurgeh]

Uh, that doesn't really add up re the oracle's predictions.

Belkar asked if he would get to cause the death of "any of the following" - that's a logical or, not a logical and, so he only needed to cause the death of any one of his desired victims in order for the prophecy to return "yes". He didn't kill Miko or Windstriker, he didn't cause Roy's death in any useful sense, and he has yet to kill V. He sure as all hell killed the Oracle, though, so that's prophecy fulfilled.

Haley's prophecy seems even more straightforward to me - I always figured it was about confessing her love for Elan, even though he's a twit. "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" isn't related to the Trojan Horse - it means that you ought to accept a gift graciously without making a point of examining its worth.

Durkon's prophecy has already been explained in the comic: when he dies, his body will be buried in his ancestral homeland. Is Durkon dead yet? No? then you can hardly say the prophecy is wrong.

Ginkgo Bilboa I have no idea about given the question was never made explicit; I had assumed it was a throwaway joke (the joke being that the raven was asking a question at all).

Xykon approaching Girard's Gate before Kraagor's was also correct (or at least not wrong yet): Roy's question had specifically precluded Soon's Gate from being a legitimate answer - he didn't ask which gate Xykon would get to first, he asked which out of Girard's and Kraagor's. The only two ways for this to be wrong is (a) for Xykon to arrive at Kraagor's before Girard's, or (b) for Xykon to never arrive at either. Too soon to tell, but for now I'm willing to trust the oracle.

V's words I'm not 100% sure about but in all likelihood the repeated "I" counts as a fourth word.

[Raistlin82]

I can actually accept that the Oracle could be the opposite... except a few misconceptions have been made. 1) The Oracle is fallible, and makes fake predictions to twist his real predictions,
Nope. The Oracle is not fallible, and you're confusing predictions with banter. When he does the "prediction" thing (scenic lighting, floating and chanting with a different balloon), he's always spot on. He did that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) when he said that "Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year."

2) He lies,
Yes, he does lie, like anybody else. But this is of course a moot point, anyway, since it doesn't affect the above in any way.

3) He isn't LG, he can't be LG to worship Tiamat who is LE, he must be LE or NE,
LMAO... :smallbiggrin:
LG = Linear Guild.
They're saying he would be Belkar's LG opposite, as in "he would fit Nale's philosophy of recruiting Linear Guild members as foils of the OotS members". And they're right. He certainly would.
Note that "opposite" doesn't necessarily mean "opposite alignment". The first kobold was CE.

4) The Oracle has yet to make a straight forward prediction, so his prediction about 'Draw Last Breath, EVER, by the end of the year' must be looked at as something more convoluted then Belkar's death.
Has yet to make a straightforward prediction? Wrong.
"Posthumously" is a very straightforward answer.
"Yes" (Belkar) is. It was spot on as well.
"Try gingko biloba" is one as well... :smallbiggrin:
You're confusing the traditional mysterious speech that's traditionally proper of all oracles with a loophole.
If somebody draws "his last breath - ever", in real life, it means that "he dies". In game means the same, with the possible exception of "he dies and doesn't get resurrected". That "ever" looks suspiciously as a lampshade hanging meant to prevent epileptic trees from those looking for loopholes.



If he were to have been totally accurate his prediction would have been, "No, because you can't kill any of them, even me, because I will be alive after your attempt.
I understand your need of twisting the Oracle's words, but this is beyond grasping at straws.
Killing somebody who then got resurrected still counts as killing (obviously :smallsigh: ).
It's embarassing to have to explain this, and it's even more humiliating having to come out with an example to explain something that should be obvious to everybody.
Sigh... ok: Belkar kills Azurite guard; Azurite guard gets resurrected; it still does count as killing the guard (despite the guard "being alive after his attempt"); Belkar is punished.

[Shoelessgdowar]

The ignored Prophecy:
Q. Where is Xykon?
A. In his Throne Room. (BS generalized answer, therefore no a valid prophecy, just a generalization to avoid giving a real answer)



Uh, that doesn't really add up re the oracle's predictions.]

Belkar asked if he would get to cause the death of "any of the following" - that's a logical or, not a logical and, so he only needed to cause the death of any one of his desired victims in order for the prophecy to return "yes". He didn't kill Miko or Windstriker, he didn't cause Roy's death in any useful sense, and he has yet to kill V. He sure as all hell killed the Oracle, though, so that's prophecy fulfilled.

No, sorry, Oracle tried to say all of them were yeses, which means he admitted he was seeing the present, not the future, and was trying to BS his way out of being a Yes since there others were Yeses.

Only valid answer to a list is a list, unless the a single answer can be applied to all the parts of the list and nod just one, especially if there is an or in it, since an or requires saying which one unless they all have the same answer.



Uh, that doesn't really add up re the oracle's predictions.]Haley's prophecy seems even more straightforward to me - I always figured it was about confessing her love for Elan, even though he's a twit. "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" isn't related to the Trojan Horse - it means that you ought to accept a gift graciously without making a point of examining its worth.

Except she never received a gift graciously. People try to claim this is her accepting the date with Elan, except the date wasn't with Elan, it was with Nale, and it wasn't really a date it was a convoluted assassination attempt, therefore no gift at all, therefore she never looked a gift horse in the mouth.

I brought up the Trojan Horse as it is the closest thing to a Literal 'Gift' 'Horse' that would fit this situation, since Nale is a Trojan Horse, it looks like a Gift but is actually Death in Disguise. The only way to validate the Oracle's prophecy is to infer the Gift Horse was a Trojan Horse (which was believed to be a Gift when it wasn't), and therefore there never was a gift horse to look in the mouth, so she got her voice back by a means other then not looking a gift horse in the mouth. Which means the Oracle was wrong.



Uh, that doesn't really add up re the oracle's predictions.]Durkon's prophecy has already been explained in the comic: when he dies, his body will be buried in his ancestral homeland. Is Durkon dead yet? No? then you can hardly say the prophecy is wrong.

Actually yes I can, a prophecy is not validated until it comes true. Otherwise, Elan and the rest of the Order COULD stand outside and do nothing and his would still come true, but that isn't the fact, they have to do something for his to come true. Prophecies are not Schroedinger's Cat, they aren't both valid and invalid until you see otherwise, they are invalid until proven otherwise, because until they are proven they can be changed.


Ginkgo Bilboa I have no idea about given the question was never made explicit; I had assumed it was a throwaway joke (the joke being that the raven was asking a question at all).

Sorry, Blackwing can talk, we've seen it, there was a question, there was an answer, but we haven't seen Ginko Bilboa yet, and the question has been stated to have been "What do I have to do to get Vaarsuvius to acknowledge me?" But Ginko Bilboa had nothing to do with that happening.


Xykon approaching Girard's Gate before Kraagor's was also correct (or at least not wrong yet): Roy's question had specifically precluded Soon's Gate from being a legitimate answer - he didn't ask which gate Xykon would get to first, he asked which out of Girard's and Kraagor's. The only two ways for this to be wrong is (a) for Xykon to arrive at Kraagor's before Girard's, or (b) for Xykon to never arrive at either. Too soon to tell, but for now I'm willing to trust the oracle.

The Oracle prefaced this with a disclaimer, why, because he knew when he answered, his answer was invalid.
The only valid answer was NEITHER, as it is an answer and with a list or multiple choice covers all possibilities given in the list.
He didn't say NEITHER, his prophecy was wrong. The Azure gate is NEITHER Girard's Gate nor Kraagor's gate.



Uh, that doesn't really add up re the oracle's predictions.
V's words I'm not 100% sure about but in all likelihood the repeated "I" counts as a fourth word.

1) I is a single word, stuttering is stuttering a single word, 2) he said it to No one, the prophecy said the right person for all the wrong reasons... no one can never be the right person as no one by definition is not a person.

[hamishspence]

The ignored Prophecy:
Q. Where is Xykon?
A. In his Throne Room. (BS generalized answer, therefore no a valid prophecy, just a generalization to avoid giving a real answer)

Answers that are true, yet unhelpful, are common in prophesy.


Except she never received a gift graciously. People try to claim this is her accepting the date with Elan, except the date wasn't with Elan, it was with Nale, and it wasn't really a date it was a convoluted assassination attempt, therefore no gift at all, therefore she never looked a gift horse in the mouth.

The term "gift horse" is used metaphorically- "Elan" offering to date her was something to be suspicious of- she chose not to "look it in the mouth"- and eventually, she ended up with her voice back thanks to making that decision.


The Oracle prefaced this with a disclaimer, why, because he knew when he answered, his answer was invalid.
The only valid answer was NEITHER, as it is an answer and with a list or multiple choice covers all possibilities given in the list.
He didn't say NEITHER, his prophecy was wrong. The Azure gate is NEITHER Girard's Gate nor Kraagor's gate.

Only two possibilities were given- "Neither" would only have been a valid answer if Xykon, in the future, never went near either gate.

Roy specifically asked: "Of these two" so the Oracle answered which of those two.


1) I is a single word, stuttering is stuttering a single word, 2) he said it to No one, the prophecy said the right person for all the wrong reasons... no one can never be the right person as no one by definition is not a person.

He said it to a person- himself. Don't Split the Party is pretty explicit that V's prophesy has been fulfilled.

[Swordpriest]

Good grief, not this again. :smalleek:

[sims796]

Good grief, not this again. :smalleek:

That should be the site's motto.

[Asta Kask]

I doubt Durkon would be involved that way with a woman he knows is married.

Hold Person. It's a little kinky, but Hilgya is an evil cleric of Loki. Plus, it makes Durkon go... entirely... stiff... :smallbiggrin:

[Shoelessgdowar]

Answers that are true, yet unhelpful, are common in prophesy.

It wasn't Xykon's throne room, it was Dorukan's Gate Room. And yes it is common, so common that it is a cop out. Just like Durkon's prophecy is. Posthumorously could mean his soul will visit, not his body, so it is a lie, a cop out, a cheat to claim accuracy when there is none.



The term "gift horse" is used metaphorically- "Elan" offering to date her was something to be suspicious of- she chose not to "look it in the mouth"- and eventually, she ended up with her voice back thanks to making that decision.

If the Real Elan had asked, it would be a Gift Horse, if an assassin in disguise asks it is not a Gift. The Trojan Horse was a metaphorical and partly literal Gift Horse, and it is where the adage 'Beware Greek bearing Gifts' comes from. A Gift Horse is only a Gift Horse if it has no strings or penalties attached. Nale's invite had the penalty of near death and near loss of her relationship with Elan attached.



Only two possibilities were given- "Neither" would only have been a valid answer if Xykon, in the future, never went near either gate.

Uh, that doesn't really add up re the oracle's predictions. Roy specifically asked: "Of these two" so the Oracle answered which of those two.

Of those two, still NEITHER, because he would still be near a Third Gate first, and that gate is Neither of those two. This would be the instance where Neither could be the "true, yet unhelpful" answer. This is where the list has a single answer that covers all the options. This is the prophecy the Oracle could have used the BS tactics he used for Belkar Prophecy and Roy's previous prophecy and been Justified. But he didn't. You can use a hammer to slam a screw into a hole or yank one out, you can use a Screwdriver to pop a hinge or lock, and you can drive in or remove a nail with a crowbar, but that isn't how they're meant to be used, and they you are still doing those actions wrong when you misuse them that way.
Doing things wrong and then claiming 'I was successful and right' is not right, it is skirting the issue and justifying success with convoluted falsehoods (which is exactly what the Oracle did when Belkar pointed out that he hadn't killed anyone on the list, and the Oracle tried to twist any event he could to make Roy and Miko's deaths and Windstriker's stuck in LG Heaven all fit in the holes with his wrong shaped pegs... Also, if the prophecies can be so easily twisted, then I get to twist an event ever so slightly. The Oracle planned to die, he provoked Belkar, and made the Kobold city, therefore Belkar didn't kill the Oracle... the Oracle committed Suicide. Belkar therefore has yet to kill any of them, Period. Either the Oracle's yes has to be 100% correct about all the beings asked about, or he was 100% wrong.)



He said it to a person- himself. Don't Split the Party is pretty explicit that V's prophesy has been fulfilled.

Fine, then Belkar's Prophesy of breathing his last breath, ever, was fulfilled as well when the old Belkar died in the basement and the new one replaced him. It is just as valid, because talking to yourself is not talking to anyone... everytime you think of anything you're talking to yourself.


----------------------------------------------------------

The reason Prophecies are usually vague is so they can be twisted to fit the situation and the Prophet can claim they're infallible, but Eric "Harry Houdini" Weiss spent years disproving charlatans who claimed to be real psychics and oracles because he would make them either be truly correct, or admit to being frauds. The Oracle has proven he is a fraud. Real Oracles don't need to have interpretive predictions because they see the real future. Cassandra, known for being always correct, but always disbelieved didn't make vague predictions, she made specific and accurate ones. Charlatans need the vague so they can back pedal later, the real deals can give details, answer accurately, and not be impeded by mistakes of the questioner.

Had Roy not been so restrictive in his question, the Oracle would have said, "The Gate you least expect" which would of course be true, and also covers his bases, because if they succeeded to pick the correct gate it is because they thought of which gate they'd least expect or if they failed to pick the correct gate it is because obviously they least expected that gate despite the Oracle's prophecy.

Girard's gate is hidden, so if the gate is in the middle of the Azure City, but concealed, then guess what, Xykon would have passed within 1000 feet of it and never known it... all the gates are linked, and the dimension of the scribble has no measurements, so if you're near one gate you're within 10 feet of all the others... we can make up reasons why the Oracle was right all day long, and they're still wrong, just like him...

For the Oracle to be correct he needed to have answered accurately, even if in riddle:

Q: How will I be returning to my beloved dwarven lands?
A: You won't, cause when your body does, it will bring death to all your people but you'll be dead already, so you won't be returning. (Direct)
or
A: When you unwillingly plague your own people, and end all Dwarvenkind. (Indirect and slightly riddlish)

Q: How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?
A: You won't, but you'll come close when you make a deal with evil beings, get souls bonded to yourself so you have their knowledge and power at your beckon call, and then you'll lose it and your family (direct)
or
A: When I send the Dragon Mother for you, you will act insane, and in your insanity will call on powers that are beyond you and against you, though you will never hold the power as you truly desire (indirect and riddlish)

Q: Bfqe zqp M rt et fjketfj wi kljjzf?
A: When you freak out from lies told by the evil twin of the man you love, forcing you to confess your true feelings for the brainless fool before he kills you from falling for the lies. (Direct)
or
A: When you have a date with an enemy, relive the rebellious dress of your youth, are slandered by your foe, and threatened by your love, then profess your true feelings without reservation, only then when you are truly willing to speak true, will you speak true again. (indirect and riddlish)

Q: Will this story have a happy ending?
A: Ask Rich 'Giant in the Playground' Burlew, not me, I'm only a throw away BS character meant to mess with your heads, give convoluted foreshadowing, inspire insane arguments on the forums, and facilitate evil. (Direct)
or
A: The Answer is Hazy, ask again later!!! (magic 8-Ballish)

Q: Do I get to cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or you?
A: No. Miko gets killed when she acts stupid, her Horse Windstriker can't die and will only get stuck in LG Heaven when she falls from grace and then dies, Roy will get killed by a combination of his own stupidity along with Xykon's dirty tricks and Celia's ignorance when he crashes to the ground and splatters, Vaarsuvius will live a very long miserable life even well after you die, and I will commit suicide and cause you to suffer agony in one fell swoop only to get resurrected shortly after anyway. (Direct)
or
A: No, your actions will all be for naught, those you seek to kill will only doom themselves, and make you feel terrible both at your inability and by their deaths. (indirect and riddlish)

Q: There are two magical gates that Xykon might try to control next: Girard's Gate on the western continent or Kraagor's Gate, near the norther plar cap. If the lich sorcer commonly refered to as "Xykon" will ever, at some future point in time, within a 1000-foot radius of one of these two magical gates, of which of these locations will he be within said radius first, chronologically?

A: Let me stop you before you confuse yourself. Actually you are wrong, there are 3 gates, you need to go back to Azure City and stop Xykon from taking it, he'll be on the invisible dragon while his 3 fake decoys try to distract you. (Direct 1)
or
A: Neither, he's going for the one in Azure City, but you over thought things too much.
or
A: Seek not the gates you have yet to visit, but seek the one which you have just visited. The Lich conceals his presence with deception and duplicates, be neither fooled by them, nor by your belief in your girlfriend's gift, or your fall from on high will mean you die. (Indirect and Riddlish 1)
or
A: Ask Soon, he will know, be not decieved, by your own ego. (Indirect and Riddlish 2)

Q: Caw caw caw caw, caw caw caw?
A: The readers don't speak Raven, nor do I, and it wasn't translated in the TPB, so I can't see that, plus this is a throw away joke to just show you asking a question so I can give a stupid lie answer, especially since you will talk normally in later comics anyway, so you might as well ask a question now in a language the readers can understand. (Direct)
or
A: Until you speak in the human tongue, no prophecy can be begun, the beings who look down on us, will merely make a forum fuss, and that will end all for not, sorry Blackwing, that's all I got. (Funny, cause there is no answer for a question that was never asked)

Q: Not long for this world? What are you saying?
A: I'm a jerk, I'm taunting you by trying to imply he is going to die in any way I can, when in fact I'm twisting facts cause I hate him for being way cooler then me and cause Tiamat has issues with him and your team for killing Kobolds and Dragons all over the place, and you especially for dangling me out the window. But really his mark is now going to cause him to either evolve or die, and in evolving he will cease to be the Belkar you knew, so essentially the old Belkar will die and the new Belkar will be born metaphorically in him. (Direct)
or
A: You're dead, it matters not, you have to wealth, for the knowledge you sought, I could tell you, about his change, but in your brain you'd just rearrange, since I'll be honest, and will not lie, I'm trying to make you think, that he'll soon die, but he will not, if the riddle of life he does solve, and instead of die, he'll just evolve. (Indirect and riddlish)

The Oracle even said Roy would forget everything else... he didn't... again Oracle is wrong. Roy mistook that for the Oracle not looking ahead, but the truth is, the Oracle is just a con man with a good gig that helps him see some stuff for Tiamat and make wealth to propagate Tiamat's power and influence. He is very fallible, especially about anything to do with the Order.

[Kish]

I'd just like to note, for the benefit of anyone who might have a theory about the Oracle's reliability that is less specific than "he is exactly as unreliable as he needs to be for Belkar to survive," that the only reason Roy ever knew he was looking for Xykon, was because the Oracle told Eugene the sorcerer who killed Master Fyron goes by the name Xykon.

[John Cribati]

It wasn't Xykon's throne room, it was Dorukan's Gate Room.

The room had a throne in it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html). Thus, throne room.




Posthumorously could mean his soul will visit, not his body, so it is a lie, a cop out, a cheat to claim accuracy when there is none.


So it's a lie because of one way that it can be interpreted?




If the Real Elan had asked, it would be a Gift Horse.

Um.. No. Haley got asked out by who she believed to be the guy she is in love with. She had doubts about it, but she dispelled. them. Had she followed along with her doubts, she would be looking the proverbial gift horse in the mouth.


Of those two, still NEITHER, because he would still be near a Third Gate first, and that gate is Neither of those two. This would be the instance where Neither could be the "true, yet unhelpful" answer.


It would not, because Roy asked specifically about those two gates. I.E: Is Xykon going to Kraagor's gate before he goes to Girard's Gate, or is he going to Girard's Gate before Kraagor's?



Belkar didn't kill the Oracle

http://www.downfallguild.org/files/images/1241311768176.gif



talking to yourself is not talking to anyone...

http://www.downfallguild.org/files/images/1241311768176.gif

... The rest of this post just hurts my brain.

[Mordaenor]

Pompey won't be back if for no other reason: Loyalty vs. Treachery aside, Nale is pretty committed to his "Evil and Opposite" Motif. Pompey was V's "Evil Twin" With Zz'dtri back that role is filled so if Pompey DOES show up it won't be as a member of the LG. Leeky or Hilgya are plausible I think, with Hilgya perhaps SLIGHTLY more likely IMO, but I expect we will see new LG members as Anti-Durkon and Anti-Belkars. Actually, I think the idea of Nale finding a new Kobold to challenge Belkar everytime they meet would be funny. ESPECIALLY if they were all related. Think of it:

Yikyik
Yokyok son of Yikyik
Yakyak cousin of Yokyok son of Yikyik
Yukyuk uncle of Yakyak cousin of Yokyok son of Yikyik.

That's a running gag right there. :smallsmile:

[Da'Shain]

What we have here is a misunderstanding of definition.

Dorukan's gate room was now Xykon's property by conquest, and he had a throne in it; therefore, Xykon's throne room.

A Gift Horse can quite easily be from an enemy. What do you think the Trojan Horse was? Yet by accepting without examining too closely she set events in motion that would eventually lead to her regaining her normal speech, hence the Oracle's prophecy was correct, if in a roundabout way.

Roy asked about two specific gates. The Oracle was bound to answer the question as stated, and even tried to hint to Roy that he was forgetting a crucial possibility. But Roy's question was "of these two gates", which by definition excludes any third gate. This one you don't even have a toe to stand on, let alone a leg. I'd like to point out a specific claim you make as well:
You can use a hammer to slam a screw into a hole or yank one out, you can use a Screwdriver to pop a hinge or lock, and you can drive in or remove a nail with a crowbar, but that isn't how they're meant to be used, and they you are still doing those actions wrong when you misuse them that way.No, you're not. If the intended result gets done as satisfactorily as it would have with the most appropriate tool in your box, then you did it correctly, although it might have taken longer. You're also leaving out the very distinct possibility that you don't HAVE a hammer when that would be the easiest tool, and have to use a crowbar as a viable substitute.

Your claim that the Oracle committed suicide would have some merit if the Oracle had actually intended to die there. He didn't. He tried to weasel his way out of it, but he knew that he was fated to die there, so he took the necessary steps to see that his killer would be punished and his death would be reversed.

Even if we agreed that the Oracle committed suicide, Belkar still killed him. Belkar's hand, fully knowingly and intentionally, wielded the knife that killed him. That's like saying the person who performs assisted suicide isn't killing their "patient," or that someone who shoots at a cop with the intention of being shot back at and killed isn't still killed by the cop. Again, utter misunderstanding of definition. Your earlier claim is even worse, that Belkar didn't actually kill him because he was raised from the dead. Others have explained exactly how wrong that is, so I won't go into a tirade here, even though how anyone could come to that conclusion is utterly beyond me.

The Oracle answered every one of his "customers" accurately, but is either bound by Tiamat/the plot to answer in riddles and half-truths, or simply enjoys tweaking people's noses, which we have every indication he does. We also have every indication that he does in fact see the future, considering that he correctly told Roy and Durkon where to find Xykon (after being properly motivated), was prepared to banish Roy in advance, knew the precise moment that he would be killed by Belkar, knew both when the ABD and Xykon were coming to see him, could see into the future where Haley's speech was translated and thus understand her, etc. We have every reason to believe he's a real prophet.

The rest of your post is ... frankly ridiculous.

[BlackestOfMages]

Belkar asked about more then the Oracle. Unless the Oracle said, No, No, No, No, Yes... the Yes is invalid as it did not apply to all of them. To be an accurate prophecy and not a I'll sacrifice myself to make myself look right, Belkar either had to kill all of those he asked about, or the Oracle had to say more then just "Yes". Since the Oracle only said "Yes", the prophecy was false, and therefore the Oracle's death is invalid as proof of the prophecy, since he only did it to try and validate it and to intentionally set off the Mark. The Oracle is a fraud anyway, as Ginko Bilboa was wrong, V said fewer words to no one, Haley never encountered a gift horse unless someone want to try and claim the Trojan Horse was actually a Gift, Durkon has not returned to his homelands in any form, and Xykon was not near Girard's gate next (The Oracle tried to lead Roy into rephrasing the question so he could give a BS Answer like "Xykon will near the gate where you will least expect him to go" which would of course be a cop out since whichever gate they didn't choose would be the one they'd least expect no matter what. For the Oracle to have made a valid prophecy about the Gate he would have had to have said "Neither, he will be near the gate you just left." but the Oracle is a charlatan who gets away with whatever prophecy suits his needs.

Haley: gift horse was the thing with Nale. sure it was a trap, but not by her perception. to her it was from Elan (something she'd wanted) and it ended up with Elan and Haley getting together. And who said a gift had to be nice?

V's rise to power: his/her/it's exact words to the I... I must suceed, which is four, due to the repetition. And this got him fathomably the ultimate arcane power, which is what he asked for. Xykon just won becase a) he'd lost the strongest of the three by then b) he's a much better tactician than V, and c) v only got unlimited arcane power, Xykon still had the whole lich lightning immunity (wasted spell). superhuman strength, experiance, and support, and V is also still stuck with mid-level elf wizard hit points and concentration...

Roy's question could be broken down to two answers. Giriad's, or Kragors, because he asked the oracle wich of these two Xykon would be nearest. This was roy trying to be to clever, and failing. The oracle actualy tried to get roy to rephrase the question so it would include the saphire guard one, by asking is he sure (when roy has specificed there are TWO gates, giriad's and kragor's) that that is his question

we don't know if elan gets a happy ending, it's not finished yet. we also don't know wether durkon dies, for the same reason. (though elan could consider everything a happy ending)

Lastly, Belkar's question was "do I get to cause the deaths of any of the following". that's ANY of the following, which was a yes. he killed the orcale. not any of the following, and if so, whom. just any of the following. if he'd worded the question right, then it wouldn't have happened. Also, the fact he had someone pop in the MOMENT belkar left implied he knew he was going to dye, and the fact it's pre-paid adds more weiight to the oracle part.

thus, so far, the orcale has yet to be WRONG. he's been a jackass, but each of his answers (even roy's first one, the whole where is Xykon) have been valid answers for the question given, just not always the question intended . It is safe to assume he's right, even if you don;t want him to be.

[Absol197]

Shoelessgdowar, You obviousy want to doubt the oracle's ability to see the future. Fair enough, a person should always be suspicious of someone claiming to have such a power. So, in the interest of looking at this fairly, let's look at everything we've seen him do that suggests he can see the future.

For this analysis, I'll be using the following categories:

Prophecy: The "on the record" predictions that have a green speech bubble. These will be put into the following categories:
True: The prophecy was unambiguously true, and happened as predicted, or the oracle gave precisely accurate current information.
Ambiguously True: If translated the proper way, the oracle was correct, but there could be alternate translations that contradict.
Not Yet Proven: The predicted event has not yet come to pass, and so we can't prove whether or not he was correct.
False: The oracle was obviously wrong.

Prediction: Things he says that predict future events without being a prophecy (as described above). Predictions follow the same categories as prophecies.

Uncanny Knowledge: Evidence that the oracle knows things he was not present for, or things that would otherwise be very difficult for him to know without his stated abilities.

Uncanny Foresight: Things the oracle has done or preparations we've seen him make that indicate foreknowledge of what's coming, or otherwise hard to explain without his supposed ability.

Okay, here we go, chronologically:

Start of Darkness
Prophecy: Eugene Greenhilt asks him for the name of the person who killed his master. the Oracle answers, "Xykon." We see in Start of Darkness that, yes, Xykon kills Fryon. This prophecy is true. Assuming the oracle just said the name of a random person (or made up a name to tell Eugene), it is an enourmous coincidence that this is both the name of an actual person, and that that person was who really killed Fryon.

On the Origins of PCs
I don't have this book, so I don't know if the oracle appears (although I expect he doesn't). If anyone else has information, please pass it along.

Dungeon Crawlin' Fools
The oracle doesn't make an appearance.

No Cure for the Paladin Blues
the oracle doesn't make an appearance.

War and XPs
Prophecy: Durkon says that one of the oracle's prophecies was how they knew where to find Xykon. Since they found Xykon, this prophecy is true.
Prediction: The oracle intimates that Belkar doesn't have long to live. Since Belkar is not dead yet, this is not yet proven.
Prophecy: We learn that Roy asked, "Where is Xykon?" and was answered, "in his throne room." Since the room where Xykon was hanging out during the first book was a room, with a throne, and he took it over from Dorukan, this is a correct prediction (if an unhelpful one). True.
Uncanny Knowledge: the oracle can understand Haley. He says it's because he can see the future to when her cryptograms are translated. Either way, this is hard to explain without some supernatural ability that is not normally available to either kobolds or experts.
Prediction: The oracle tells Roy and Elan that they are "running late for a pair of family reunions." The very next arc is them fighting Nale (a part of Elan's family), who has kidnapped Julia (a part of Roy's family). A true prediction.
Prophecy: Durkon asks how he will be returning to the Dwarven homelands. The answer: "Posthumously." As Durkon has not died yet, this prophecy is not yet proven. (although, even if he get's disintegrated and his body can't be returned as Durkon himself expects, his soul can still return like when Roy wanders around as a spirit, which would be a posthumous return).
Prophecy: Elan asks if the story will have a happy ending. the answer is "Yes, for you at least." The story is not over, so this is not yet proven.
Prophecy: V asks how she will achieve ultimate arcane power. "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the worng reasons." The Giant gives a good explanation of this in author commentary in Don't Split the Party: the four words are "I...I must succeed." V says they to herself, the right time is when the IFCC is offering, and the wrong reasons are to prove to herself that magic is all-powerful. The giant considers this a fulfilled prophecy, and I think he would know. Ambiguously True.
Prophecy: Haley asks how she can get her voice back. "Don't look the gift horse in the mouth." Essentially, when something too good to be true happens, don't analyse it. "Elan" asking her out seems to good to be true, she doesn't analyze it, and it leads to her getting her voice back. Prophecy is indirect but arguable. Ambiguously true.
Prophecy: Belkar asks if he will cause the death of any of a number of people. "Yes." While not a specific answer to the question, it is a legitimate answer, because Belkar doesn't ask about each person individually, he asks about someone from the group as a whole. He killed the oracle. Prophecy is true (and, I at least think several of the oracle's other explainations would work, too).
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle seems to hint that he knows Xykon and crew are going to Azure City first, by suggesting Roy alter his question, along with the constant cuts to Xykon and henchmen stating they're going to Azure City. This is debatable.
Prophecy: Roy asks whether Xykon will be close to Girard's or Kraagor's gate first, chronologically. Since Xykon has gone to neither yet, this is not yet proven. However, since we know he and Redcloak currently plan to go to Girard's Gate next, it is looking as though it will be true.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle can understand a raven. He's not a druid, so he doesn't have speak with animals, so something else must be going on.
Prophecy: Backwing asks a question. We can't know what he asks, as we don't get a translation, so we can't put the answer, "Ginko balboa," into any context. This prophecy can't be proven true or false.

Don't Split the Party
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knows how Roy died in great detail, including that the fell off a zombie dragon, that Belkar gave Roy the ring of jumping +20, and that Belkar made a bet with the thief about whther or not Roy would jump on the dragon.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knows that Celia is dating Roy, and intimates that he knows that Roy also died because he couldn't break her talisman, and that she doesn't know about what humans can do (he also implies that he knows what uh, activities they've been doing on the bed...).
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knows that Miko is dead (which no one else in the order knows), and that she is a paladin. He knows about her beliefs that the Order was working with Xykon; he knows that they rallied to protect Belkar in Shojo's throne room; he knows she was imprisoned; he knows that she died when the castle exploded (and that the castle exploded at all).
Uncanny Foresight: The oracle knew to set up a village so that it would set off Belkar's mark of justice once Belkar came back (which, of course, implies he knew Belkar would come back), and he knew Belkar would at least damage him, because he named the Village "Lickmyorangeballshalfling" as f*** you to Belkar. This leads to:
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle knew that Belkar had a mark of justice on him, and that it would trigger if he dealt lethal damage within the bounds of a village.
Uncanny Foresight: The oracle knew to pay his lizardfolk friends to resurrect him just after Haley and company had left, knowing he would be dead. From the way they talk, he's done this quite a few times before.
Prediction: The oracle predicts that he will die again at a specific future date. As we will likely never see this happen, it is not yet proven.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle can perceive incorporal creatures, as evinced by the fact he can see Roy.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle implies he knows about Roy's mother's spirit's sexual adventures in the afterlife.
Prediction: The oracle repeats the prediction that Belkar will die soon. Once again, not yet proven.
Prophecy: The oracle makes his prediction about Belkar into a prophecy. Belkar's still not dead, so it's still not yet proven.
Uncanny Knowledge: The oracle goes beyond the standard medium-awareness of the Order of the Stick characters and shows awareness of the readers.
Uncanny Kowledge: The oracle tells Roy he knows about the ancient black dragon's approach.
Prediction: Not quite a prediction, but the oracle tells Roy he will forget everything but his prohpecy once he leaves. Since Roy remembers, this is false.
Uncanny Forsight: the oracle knew to keep a wand of dismissal on himself to banish Roy when he wouldn't leave.
Prophecy: The oracle tells the ancient black dragon that it was Vaarsuvius that killed her son. Since we know this is the case, this is true.

Current Arc
The oracle has not made an appearance.

Okay, so here are the results:


True: Prophecies: 5; Predictions: 1
Ambiguously True: Prophecies: 2; Predictions: 0
Not Yet Proven: Prophecies: 4; Predictions: 3
False: Prophecies: 0; Predictions: 1
Can't Be Proven: Prophecies: 1; Predictions: 0
Uncanny Knowledge: 11 instances
Uncanny Foresight: 3 instances

Conclusion:
Because of the large body of evidence, outside of word-twisting prophecies, that suggests the oracle at least has some sort of extraordinary senses, I would conclude that he can indeed see the future. You may point to the instance of being wrong about Roy forgetting as evidence that he can't, but that would be an incorrect assumption. The oracle is mortal, and can make mistakes, just like any of us. Being wrong once doesn't negate all the times he's been right.

As far as this debate goes, you would need to provide reasonable explanations to the majority of these instances that indicate how the oracle could have known what he knows if you want to convincingly argue that he can't actually see the future.

[Gurgeh]

Nicely summarised - did a better job than I did. :P

I just feel I should clarify exactly why the Oracle's answer to Belkar's question was perfectly correct. Belkar asked if he would "cause the death of any of the following" (roy/miko/horse/v/oracle). This is a disjunction.

A disjunction (or a logical or, or an OR gate in electrical engineering, whatever floats your boat) is true whenever any of its components is true, no matter how many other components are false. However, that truth doesn't work backwards; a true disjunction only tells you that one or more of its disjuncts is true, not that any specific one of them is true.

Belkar's problem was that he hadn't specified his question correctly - answering a logical or question with a straight-up "yes" or "no" is an old joke, commonly used in science fiction stories with robotic or computer-based characters: it's a factually correct answer that, unless further explained, is still completely useless to the questioner.

Notice how Belkar immediately follows up with "Sweet! Which?" and is just as promptly dismissed by the Oracle (he's already used up his question, after all). The entire joke here is that Belkar is too short-sighted to phrase his question properly; he's in the opposite situation to Roy (who out-logics himself by assuming that Xykon will attack either Girard's or Kraagor's gate before Soon's), and in the same situation as Roy and Durkon prior to the start of the comic (asking a vague question like "where is Xykon" is just asking for trouble).

On top of that, Belkar could quite easily have rephrased his question to give him a complete answer. If he had approached the Oracle with a question like:

"Which, if any, of these people do I get to cause the death of: Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or you?"

...then the Oracle would have been hard-pressed to come up with any answer other than a list of people Belkar gets to cause the death of (or saying "none of them" if Belkar wouldn't get to kill any of them).

As far as we're aware, the answer to each of the individuals in question is "Not really, no, kinda-sorta, don't know yet, yes". So basically the answer would have been something like "sorta-not-really Miko, sorta-Roy, and me."

But of course, Belkar didn't ask a question like that, because he's too short-sighted to consider it necessary.

[Cisturn]

I never thought that the Linear Guild, (hopefully at full power) would contain Qarr, now we just need Hilgya!

[Roderick_BR]

Very likely. Looks like Nale was busy putting his band together. Since the kobold is new, he might have found a new cleric as well.

[Ancalagon]

Can we please stop those stupid discussion about the prophecies in this thread? Move them to a seperate one (or just re-read all those ancient ones that have covered all these wrong theories ad nauseam & beyond) if you have to stick to them.

In this thread, I'd like to discuss what Durkon is doing and whom he gets as opposite. Apparently, Nale picked the Evil Opposite Theme up again. It's also interesting that the confrontation went Full Circle, so... yes, I expect the LG to be at Full Power - and have their final showdown within the next strips.

[Kish]

Apparently, Nale picked the Evil Opposite Theme up again.
I never understood why so many people were parsing "I'm tired of dead weight on the team" to mean "I will no longer attempt to create a team of Evil Opposites to the team I think of as my brother's team." If he's not an Evil Opposite then Nale isn't anything, and he knows it, even though he'd probably kill me for saying it that way.

[BlackestOfMages]

Nale said he didn't want 'dead weight', which more implies he's going for stronger members, not dropping the evil opposites theme

also, I want to see the new cleric. I doubt it'll be Hylga because, as stated, she never worked for Nale, but just preteneded to. Zz'ditri is back because he did work for Nale

[Cisturn]

I think Durkon will probably be studying in the library when he's attacked. As much as I like the Dwarf i think he'll probably be taken of guard and have to be saved...hopefully by Malack rather than Elan.

[RunicLGB]

I'm sad the kobold isn't someone more awesome, though Sir Scraggly is pretty freakin cool. Does make me wonder how Nale knew that Belkar had a cat though...

At any rate I see evidence that this will be the linear guild's last apearance, or at least their last appearance with full power.

A E I O U: That is the order that vowels come in the alphabet.

Yakyak: Is a stupid name
Yekyek: Never heard of em.
Yikiyik: First kobold
Yokyok: Second Kobold
Yukyuk: last Kobold.


With Quarr showing up I definitly thing something big is about to go down. I don't think the IFCC would sen in their new go-getter without something big planned.

[Alex Warlorn]

Given the Kobold natural talent for replacing their numbers rather effectively, I doubt we'll ever see the end of the Kobold family tree that going to keep trying to kill Bitterleaf until the law of averages gets the better of him or his time runs out.

[KillItWithFire]

I'm sad the kobold isn't someone more awesome, though Sir Scraggly is pretty freakin cool. Does make me wonder how Nale knew that Belkar had a cat though...

At any rate I see evidence that this will be the linear guild's last apearance, or at least their last appearance with full power.

A E I O U: That is the order that vowels come in the alphabet.

Yakyak: Is a stupid name
Yekyek: Never heard of em.
Yikiyik: First kobold
Yokyok: Second Kobold
Yukyuk: last Kobold.


With Quarr showing up I definitly thing something big is about to go down. I don't think the IFCC would sen in their new go-getter without something big planned.

You're forgetting the estranged member of the family that no one ever talks about: Yykyyk! :smallbiggrin: