Frenzied berserker: is it worth it?

[Kaeso]

Hey there playground!

I assume most of you are familliar with the slightly controversial prestige class Frenzied Berserker. It's a prestige class for the barbarian with some nasty prequisites but the frenzy ability that stacks with rage, allows you to deal truly huge ammounts of damage and even lets you ignore death for a while, so you can be sure that if you die, you're taking that dragon with you.

There is, however, a major drawback: you'll instantly fly into a frenzy if you're even slightly hurt, unless you make a will save, and you need a will save to end your frenzy. If you're in a frenzy when all enemies have been neutralized, you'll start attacking the closest ally and/or innocent bystander.

My question for you is: do the pros of this class outweigh the cons or not?

[GodGoblin]

With right amount of prep work its easily worth while. Have a half decent Wisdom score and some boosting items you will be fine. Also I think there is a FB handbook knocking around the web somewhere that will probably cover that in some detail.

Oh and if you have a low will save then that also means you wont save against the Wizards deep slumber spell :smallsmile:

Edit- things like having the rest of the party being able to fly helps too

[LordBlades]

If you minimize your cons (high will save, somebody with a bag of marbles, Iron Heart Surge etc.) then it's a good class (although I prefer Runescarred Beserker personally). If you don't take such safety measures, you'll probably see your char kicked out of the group/killed pretty soon.

[DeltaEmil]

Just buy marbles for your pals who'll make you unable to stand up like a small retarded turtle, and then it's an okay class.

Of course, if your enemies do get wind of you being a frenzied berserker and start using marbles on their own against you, you're not going to contribute much, but that's minus-point one has to accept.

[Amphetryon]

Just buy marbles for your pals who'll make you unable to stand up like a small retarded turtle, and then it's an okay class.

Of course, if your enemies do get wind of you being a frenzied berserker and start using marbles on their own against you, you're not going to contribute much, but that's minus-point one has to accept.

This, or a Wand of Grease. The fact that a properly prepared enemy can shut you down is hardly exclusive to FB, so shouldn't be a detractor in your choice. If your DM is actively nerfing your character and leaving other folks alone, that's an out-of-game problem manifesting as an in-game issue.

[comicshorse]

Get the Steadfast Determianation feat. Your Will save goes on your Con and you don't automatically fail on a 1

[DeltaEmil]

This, or a Wand of Grease. The fact that a properly prepared enemy can shut you down is hardly exclusive to FB, so shouldn't be a detractor in your choice. If your DM is actively nerfing your character and leaving other folks alone, that's an out-of-game problem manifesting as an in-game issue.It depends on the amount of difficulty. A frenzied berserker is going to be a (in-)famous warrior, and people will hear about that person starting to foam whenever a mosquito bites one, and having marbles or a flask of oil (or heck, just a barrel full of water) will not hurt suspension of disbelief for anybody at the table.
It will however of course be frustrating for the player of the frenzied berserker-character to know that a mere child who accidently drops its marble stopped his character.
On the other hand, perhaps every enemy will laugh at the frenzied berserker lying on its back like Bender in the episode 'Crimes of the Hot' so much that the compadres of the frenzy-berserker get a combat advantage against them.

[Amphetryon]

It depends on the amount of difficulty. A frenzied berserker is going to be a (in-)famous warrior, and people will hear about that person starting to foam whenever a mosquito bites one, and having marbles or a flask of oil (or heck, just a barrel full of water) will not hurt suspension of disbelief for anybody at the table.

Speaking only for myself, it would hurt my suspension of disbelief to be at a table where the enemy thwarts my primary tactic at every turn while everyone else's primary tactic is allowed to work more or less as the players envisioned. That circumstance, specifically, is what I was referencing in the post you quoted.

[Telonius]

I can't recall - can a Frenzied Berserker willingly fail a save while in Frenzy? If so, calmness is only a level-2 spell away.

[The Cat Goddess]

I think there's a Kensai ability that can help with this?

Otherwise, there's an Iron Heart maneuver that lets you make a Concentration Check instead of Will Save.

[Particle_Man]

In practice, our party had a FB and I started minmaxing my dwarf fighter to go all for AC, not to be especially effective vs. opponents, but to allow the party to hide behind me while I took the shots of the FB after he killed our enemies, and just waited for the frenzy to wear off. Kinda risky as I was a natural 20 away from obliteration, but the natural 20 didn't come up.

[kiryoku]

i forgot the name but there is a feat that gives your con bonus to will saves instead of wis bonus to will saves.

[MeeposFire]

Mechanically I don't think it is. You can deal crazy high damage without it and make yourself hard to kill without it. Its drawbacks can be mitigated but you always run a risk of you killing your party. Grease is the easiest way around frenzy as you cannot get out of it, however even using that if your caster can't get the spell out in time (say if the caster was stunned, dazed, or otherwise unable to help) you can lose party members fast. Now role playing wise you can certainly have fun with the concept (though you don't need the prc to role play this concept). Biggest concern are the other players in the group. How do they feel about a character that dangerous to their characters that can be easily exploited against you?

[Hiro Protagonest]

i forgot the name but there is a feat that gives your con bonus to will saves instead of wis bonus to will saves.
Steadfast determination. It was already mentioned.

I think there's a Kensai ability that can help with this?

Otherwise, there's an Iron Heart maneuver that lets you make a Concentration Check instead of Will Save.

Moment of perfect mind, but you can't use concentration while in frenzy. And it's not iron heart, it's diamond mind.

[Zaq]

People, people, people. The FB's Frenzy is like the Assassin's Death Attack. Yes, it looks like their signature ability, but it's not why you play the class (if you know what you're doing). You'll get far more mileage out of their absurdly powerful Power Attack multipliers than you will out of Frenzy. So every morning you just wake up, go away from the party, blindfold yourself, and Frenzy at nothing until you're out of Frenzies. Then you enjoy the benefits of Supreme Cleave and Supreme Power Attack without worrying about accidentally eating your Rogue buddy because you stubbed your toe. (Yes, a FB is easy to shut down with any number of methods, but anything that takes an action means you have to have a turn before he does . . . so I hope that he delivers the final blow on the final foe, not the guy before him in initiative.)

Of course, few people who choose to play FBs realize this, but eh.

[Hirax]

+1 to Zaq's post

Also, anyone saying grease and other ground obstacles are a surefire way to shutdown a FB is ignoring the fact that they can still make jump checks to get out easily, since their strength is probably very high.

[Glimbur]

+1 to Zaq's post

Also, anyone saying grease and other ground obstacles are a surefire way to shutdown a FB is ignoring the fact that they can still make jump checks to get out easily, since their strength is probably very high.

Also, by the level you can have a frenzied berserker, flight is a pretty useful ability to have.

[MeeposFire]

People, people, people. The FB's Frenzy is like the Assassin's Death Attack. Yes, it looks like their signature ability, but it's not why you play the class (if you know what you're doing). You'll get far more mileage out of their absurdly powerful Power Attack multipliers than you will out of Frenzy. So every morning you just wake up, go away from the party, blindfold yourself, and Frenzy at nothing until you're out of Frenzies. Then you enjoy the benefits of Supreme Cleave and Supreme Power Attack without worrying about accidentally eating your Rogue buddy because you stubbed your toe. (Yes, a FB is easy to shut down with any number of methods, but anything that takes an action means you have to have a turn before he does . . . so I hope that he delivers the final blow on the final foe, not the guy before him in initiative.)

Of course, few people who choose to play FBs realize this, but eh.

Oddly I say this all the time. Some people think I am nuts but I am glad to find somebody else that thinks the same.

[herrhauptmann]

+1 to Zaq's post

Also, anyone saying grease and other ground obstacles are a surefire way to shutdown a FB is ignoring the fact that they can still make jump checks to get out easily, since their strength is probably very high.

They auto-fail their balance checks to remain on their feet, and any balance check to stand up. At least while frenzying. So if someone can manage to hit the FB with marbles or grease, everyone else just has to stay out of reach until it wears off.
He could probably crawl out of the affected square, but that gives you another turn to run, or grease him again. And it's not like he can activate his belt of battle, since item activation is (or should be) impossible during the frenzy.
Alternatively, he could lay there and throw his axe at you. At a -8 penalty. Without getting to make use of his massive power attack bonuses (Power attacking with thrown is a separate feat)

[Hirax]

You don't make a balance check to stay on your feet, you make a balance check to move. It's a reflex save that keeps you on your feet when the spell is cast, and on each turn you're on your feet in the grease. If you fail your reflex save, standing up from prone is a move action that doesn't require a balance check. Then use your standard action to jump 6 feet, a meager check of 12 if you don't have a running start. Greasing him again is a waste of time for the enemy, since he presumably has a whole other group of PCs to worry about.

[herrhauptmann]

You don't make a balance check to stay on your feet, you make a balance check to move. It's a reflex save that keeps you on your feet when the spell is cast, and on each turn you're on your feet in the grease. If you fail your reflex save, standing up from prone is a move action that doesn't require a balance check. Then use your standard action to jump 6 feet, a meager check of 12 if you don't have a running start. Greasing him again is a waste of time for the enemy, since he presumably has a whole other group of PCs to worry about.

So I got the rules for grease and marbles wrong, oh well.
The issue is that it's the other PCs greasing him, trying to stay alive until the frenzy ends.

[Hirax]

That's more significant than you seem to realize. If the berserker makes their initial reflex save and doesn't fall, something much easier than an auto failed balance check, depending on how optimized it is, it might not matter, and already be too late. See this level 6 example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196813) for a powerful jumper. If they get the leaping dragon stance from a feat at level 9, then they're treated as having a running start, too.

[Greenish]

If they get the leaping dragon stance from a feat at level 9, then they're treated as having a running start, too.Or Leap of the Heavens, which isn't quite so good, but doesn't require a dip into ToB. (Without martial adept levels you can't pick Leaping Dragon Stance at 9.)

[myancey]

If you're good aligned wouldn't you be able to use Righteous Fury out of BoED to control your rages? If I'm not mistaken, any feat that works with rage stacks with frenzy as well, right?

And yeah, that class is way worth it if you need an indomitable tank. Especially if your DM allows the Troll-Blooded feat. Then you just need a means to counteract being constantly fatigued in sunlight.

[MeeposFire]

If you're good aligned wouldn't you be able to use Righteous Fury out of BoED to control your rages? If I'm not mistaken, any feat that works with rage stacks with frenzy as well, right?

And yeah, that class is way worth it if you need an indomitable tank. Especially if your DM allows the Troll-Blooded feat. Then you just need a means to counteract being constantly fatigued in sunlight.

No you can't. Frenzy and rage are separate (but do stack). However that is a common said houserule.

[Greenish]

And yeah, that class is way worth it if you need an indomitable tank. Especially if your DM allows the Troll-Blooded feat. Then you just need a means to counteract being constantly fatigued in sunlight.Be a terminator warforged. Requires flaws and a loose interpretation of what it actually means to have troll's blood. :smallwink:

[Particle_Man]

So every morning you just wake up, go away from the party, blindfold yourself, and Frenzy at nothing until you're out of Frenzies.

Neat idea, but it assumes that you will always be able to get away from your party each morning to do this.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

There are better PrCs for barbarians out there (to be honest, replacing FB with straight Warblade will give you neat abilities, if not the damage boost), and unless you're doing it Zaq's way, the probability of frenzy party kill goes to one as the campaign length increases. I'm personally not a fan of a class with a 'feature' that takes away control of the character, even if the numbers are big.

[Kaeso]

There are better PrCs for barbarians out there (to be honest, replacing FB with straight Warblade will give you neat abilities, if not the damage boost), and unless you're doing it Zaq's way, the probability of frenzy party kill goes to one as the campaign length increases. I'm personally not a fan of a class with a 'feature' that takes away control of the character, even if the numbers are big.

What are those better PrC's then, besides Fist of the Forest?

[Rhaegar14]

My two cents on Frenzied Berserker, from watching one of my players play one, are as follows:

Yes, okay, you go absolutely ape**** on all of your friends if left unchecked. But you have to remember two things.

1) You can't choose when to Frenzy, but you CAN choose when to combine Rage with Frenzy. Frenzy doesn't give you any Con boost, so you won't be in it nearly as long as Rage.

2) If your Will Save is truly pitiful (as it is for a lot of Barbarians), you will almost assuredly Frenzy in the first rounds of combat. I've only seen combat end once before the aforementioned player was done Frenzying. And they threw out some critters to keep him busy with Summon Monster I until he was finished.

[Hirax]

What are those better PrC's then, besides Fist of the Forest?

Well, what are you trying to do? The 6th level build I linked to already has you well covered for damage (500-800 in a round at 6th level without FB), so if damage is what you're after there's no need for the FB. Instead of sinking feats into cleave and the 2 annoying rage feats to qualify for FB, the build takes battle jump, power lunge, and extra rage. Since you already pretty much win at charging damage, you could dabble in whatever you want, based on what's suitable for your ability scores.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

What are those better PrC's then, besides Fist of the Forest?Champion of Gwynharwyf (BoED), Runescarred Beserker (UE), Bear Warrior (CW) to a lesser extent, and if you just pretended Warblade was a PrC it would count as well. None of these give you the sheer numbers FB gives you. None of them require shenanigans to avoid killing the party.

[MeeposFire]

My "fix" for frenzied berserker is to remove frenzy and have FB boost rage just like the champion of gwen prc. Anything that modified frenzy uses rage instead (so mass rage!). This makes for a good prc with a nice power attack ability without having you killing the party on accident while still allowing it to be a rager.

[herrhauptmann]

That's more significant than you seem to realize.

I'm really not concerned. The reason being, I haven't played in a game with a FB, nor will I.
If a player can't remember the restrictions to his abilities, it's his own problem, not mine.

[ikkeman]

My 2c, Don't play the FB for game-mechanics.
Rule wise - You'll end up killing your friends' characters in pursuit of a bit of damage. Not usually an endearing event.

However, as an actual character class, the frenzied berserker class has no equal in the amount of depth it provides. It's not just an education or trick someone taught you. It is you, your character, slowly sinking ever deeper into the depths of your rage.
So far down even, that you begin to loose control. Your first level of FB should be a rather defining moment for your character, as it probably involved a rather traumatic event - how else do you find out that you're unstoppable, even to yourself, and a danger to all around you.

Remember also that the FB is not an completely out of control killing machine - you actually attack enemies first and thus have a modicum of control over your actions. You also get a will save to end the frenzy, indicating that like during a command spell, you are not in full control of your actions.
And you should want to stop the frenzy - you're about to kill your lifelong friends, or at least your current colleagues.
That also means there are ways to master your insanity - learn to live with it.

Steadfast determination is good (though stupidly, RAW only for orcs), Righteous Wrath is better (and does work - the wording indicates you stay in control during a rage - whatever else affects you - so during frenzy-rage you can chose to not kill your friends. During frenzy without rage... you're lost again)

[Greymane]

Are you Good Aligned? As in... very Good Aligned? There's a feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds called Righteous Fury? Righteous Wrath? Something like that, and it lets you control your savage killing fury to continue using skills that require concentration and what-not. Marbles no long would be your bane. As well as not murdering your friends.

However, while I'm of the opinion this feat applies to Frenzy, I'm not sure every DM would, so YMMV.

[herrhauptmann]

Steadfast determination is good (though stupidly, RAW only for orcs),

Please explain. Steadfast only requires Endurance as a prereq. Nothing in the description says anything about orcs.
And it's a good feat for any character which will have a good (or great) con, and might end up dumping wisdom or just having a low base will save. So fighters as well. It's just that the con boosts a FB or barb gets means he gets more benefit than the standard fighter would.

[ikkeman]

Mea Culpa, I was thinking of Channeled rage:
Channeled Rage (RoD) - no need for stupid endurance.
Steadfast Determination (PH2) - no need for stupid half orc

(Note: stupid meant as an endearment in this post)