are bloodlines worth having?

[big teej]

I recently acquired Unearthed Arcana (now I can look at this 'water orc' the playground's always on about.)

and I flipped through the bloodline rules and I was curiuos....

why would you take one? (this is ignoring obvious fluff reasons, which I am always a huge fan of, this is purely from a mechanical standpoint)

as I understand it, you're basically sidestepping a class level every so often for abilities that may or may not stack up with the class features you're missing out on.


so, power wise
are bloodlines worth sidestepping your class like that?

I use the word 'sidestep' because of the terminology used in the book.
as I understand it. you take a "level" in the bloodline, which gives you numerous benefits as if you'd gained a new class level (including the bloodline effect) but you are still treated as level x, not level x+1

is this correct?

tl;dr
blood lines? how do they work?!
are they worth taking for anything beyond fluffage?

[danzibr]

Uhh... Water Orc is unrelated to bloodlines. You may know that but I'm not sure from your post.

In any case, from what I recall of bloodlines, they're never worth it. Paying class levels for some cool abilities is basically never worth it.

[Amnestic]

There's the bloodlines handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7167.0) which outlines some stuff on it, and according to them, bloodline 'levels' are more like one-off EXP payments you make for new things, and do not increase your ECL.

[Yora]

Which seems a bit solly, since it's explicitly called bloodline levels.

If you count them for ECL (RAW is unclear on this), it's basically getting some extras for LA. But the extras are really not worth La of that amount.

[danzibr]

Hmm I guess that makes me totally wrong.

[Tyndmyr]

I suppose if counting them as LA and using LA buyoff, they could be useful in obscure corner cases.

I have never found them worthwhile to include in a build myself, though.

[Xyk]

Anytime you're not planning to get past level 13, a minor bloodline is worth it.

[dextercorvia]

They are like LA that is bought off at time of acquisition. Their main benefit is for stacking with class levels for various effects.

Bard1/Wizard1/Spellthief1/DreadNecro1/Beguiler1/Chameleon1 with two bloodline levels and Master Spellthief has a chameleon caster level of 36 at ECL 6. He is a bit behind his party in XP, but XP is a river. Just wait until he can cast Wings of Flurry.

[Amnestic]

Which seems a bit solly, since it's explicitly called bloodline levels.


WotC not explaining something properly? Perish the thought! :P I agree the naming is silly, but the handbook's explanation fo the text otherwise seems solid, so I err on the side of not counting them against ECL and instead treating them as Exp payments, almost like a set of scaling rituals which offers permanent bonuses (boni? bonii? ;p)

[Aharon]

The bloodlines handbook that was linked to is PlzBrkMyCmpgn's personal interpretation of how the rules should reasonably work. It's balanced, but a personal interpretation and implementation, as the thread title says.

Most people consider them real levels. If that interpretation is used, they can be used to advance some stuff that's normally limited, specifically effective binding level (I think you could get something like EBL 39 at level 13).

[dextercorvia]

Most people consider them real levels.

I don't think this is accurate. Most opinions I have seen are in line with my earlier post. In support of this is the fact that the table gives abilities up to character level 20, which would not happen pre-epic if bloodlines counted against ECL.

[Aharon]

I was mainly going by the binder handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=137.0) and the Hellfire Warlock build (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Glaive_of_the_Hellfire_Warlock_%283.5e_Optimized_C haracter_Build%29).

In both, Bloodline levels are treated as real levels. And why wouldn't character level 20 happen? If you take a major bloodline, you get the listed bonuses. At levels 3, 6 and 12, you get nothing except what the bloodline level gives you.

Obviously, balance is hard to achieve, and even with this interpretation, some builds benefit enormously from bloodlines. Your interpretation would eliminate the small drawbacks of this interpretation (no hp and saves for bloodline levels), making them even more powerful.

[dextercorvia]

Because the bloodlines are explicity not character levels


Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

Also, if you treat them strictly as ECL advancing, the opening sentence makes no sense.


Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline.

This statement is only blanket truth if Bloodline levels do not adjust ECL, since any level of bloodline is worth less than a corresponding class level -- no HP/saves/BAB.

[Aharon]

You're selectively quoting. Right in between the two snippets you quoted, you find the sentences


Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline."

The comparison to LA, and the reference to the Table: Bloodline levels indicate that it is more similar to LA than to bought of LA. The rules for LA buy-off are in the same book. Why not clarify that bloodline levels are meant this way, if it were so?

The opening sentence doesn't prove anything but that the designers considered characters with LA to be more powerful than those without, and this obviously extends to characters using the similar bloodline mechanic.

But I'm not really trying to push my interpretation. In this thread, we already have three different interpretation, which goes to show that the rules are confusingly and badly written.

[big teej]

hm... (also yes I do know water orcs are unrelated to the bloodline question.)

from what I'm seeing, it would seem that my "side-step" interpretation may be the way for my group to go.

every so often you 'side-step' a level, picking up the bloodline abilities. but your level doesn't go up.

this puts you effectively a level behind the party until the XP river catches you up.

is this an okay usage/interpretation for an EXTREMELY low-op group?

or just an okay usage/interpretation in general?

unless I'm majorly misreading that seems to be an okay use.

[veven]

From what I'm reading it sounds like you are under the impression that a bloodline level takes the place of a class level. (a barbarian 2 who takes a blood line level and then another level of barbarian would skip the 3rd barbarian level) At least that is my interpretation of your use of the term, "sidestep". If not, you can ignore this but I am almost certain this is not how bloodlines work. It's more or less like multi-classing but different. Everyone else here has pretty much pointed out how it's different.

My personal favorite use of bloodlines is with a Wildshape ranger and a bloodline that grants alertness before level 5 (there are many) to get into Master of Many Forms without having to take two awful feats.

[big teej]

From what I'm reading it sounds like you are under the impression that a bloodline level takes the place of a class level. (a barbarian 2 who takes a blood line level and then another level of barbarian would skip the 3rd barbarian level) At least that is my interpretation of your use of the term, "sidestep". If not, you can ignore this but I am almost certain this is not how bloodlines work. It's more or less like multi-classing but different. Everyone else here has pretty much pointed out how it's different.

My personal favorite use of bloodlines is with a Wildshape ranger and a bloodline that grants alertness before level 5 (there are many) to get into Master of Many Forms without having to take two awful feats.

my initial understand was (to use the barbarian example)
a barbarian 2 who takes a bloodline level = barbarian 2/bloodline1

my idea is for said barbarian too become
barbarian 2... with a bloodline level
it wouldn't count towards ECL AT ALL.
to extend the example
barbarian 2 gains 2,000 xp (hitting level 3)
barbarian takes bloodline level
barbarian now has bloodline thingies and must gain another 2,000 xp to become barbarian 3

that make more sense?

perhaps 'side-step' is a bad term to use....

[Amnestic]

You treat the bloodline 'level' less like a level in the traditional sense and more like a...ritual, I guess, to gain extra powers. Bloodlines are then just a series of scaling rituals with scaling EXP costs, with the annoyingly confusing 'level' moniker attached to them.

Of course, that's if you're using the "bloodline level doesn't increase ECL" interpretation.

[mootoall]

My favorite thing to do is use the interpretation that they don't increase ECL, but since they do increase maximum skill ranks it allows for lots of early entry cheese regarding skills. Bards especially benefit from it because of their great higher level PrCs (SC and Virtuoso, I'm looking at you!) and lots of skill points.

[big teej]

You treat the bloodline 'level' less like a level in the traditional sense and more like a...ritual, I guess, to gain extra powers. Bloodlines are then just a series of scaling rituals with scaling EXP costs, with the annoyingly confusing 'level' moniker attached to them.

Of course, that's if you're using the "bloodline level doesn't increase ECL" interpretation.

that's basically what I said, but using the term "level"

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

:smallwink:

For the record I keep a very clear distinction between what I believe to be RAW (like Paul and his opinions) and what I believe to my interpretations. I say interpretations, because I am honest about the term and do no throw it around pejoratively (not that anyone in this thread has). The only reason I even included my interpretations is that essentially WotC left the idea half formed, similar to gestalt but not as blatantly. I identify all of my sources and discuss how I arrived at my conclusions.

Therefore the thread is not simply my 'personal interpretation.' There is a lot of good information there.

We should just stick 'archetypal bloodlines' threads, but alas we lack the m

[navar100]

Power gaming wise, they are not worth the levels. Presuming the DM would want to incorporate them into the campaign, the best thing to do is to let everyone have one with all their abilities by fiat without having to spend levels. Everyone should have the same power level bloodline. Everyone is balanced with respect to bloodlines, and the DM just accepts it that the PCs have a bit more power than normal. Bloodlines become roleplaying hooks and opportunities.