TDC Challenge

[Leewei]

Hi folks,

For those of you not familiar with it, I present That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) (Monstrous Crab entry), made famous in this forum years ago as being one of the most notoriously hard CR3 encounters published by WotC.

The challenge is to optimize a character to beat the creature. Scoring follows:

Effective Character Level
Double the ECL of your character and subtract from 12. Characters over ECL6 are not allowed. Example: A level 3 character would score 12-(3 (level) * 2) = 6 ECL points.

Attribute Point Buy
Attributes are bought using standard rules. You get to choose the point buy you use. Divide the point buy by 3, round up, then subtract from 10. This is your attribute score. Example: A character using a 20 point buy would score 10-ceiling(20/7) = 7 points

Wealth
10 for 0gp; 5 for WBL (or average starting wealth at level 1)

Odds of Winning
Your character needs at least a 50% chance of winning under the combat conditions. Round the odds to the nearest 10%, then divide by 10 to determine this score. Winning is defined as the character being alive when TDC is completely disabled or at -10hp.

Awareness
Choose how the combat starts.
10 if TDC gets a surprise round on you, starting at a range of 15'.
7 if initiative is determined normally, starting range 20'.
0 if you get a surprise round on TDC, starting range up to 100' (player's choice).

Here is a sample submission:Bill is a 4th level Human Sorcerer made with a 6 point buy (Cha 14; other attributes 8). He has invisibility, summon swarm, expeditious retreat, silent image, and nerveskitter spells known. He has Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, and Improved Initiative feats.

Opting to take TDC by surprise, he uses invisibility, then casts summon swarm to engulf TDC in bats. He then hides as it bleeds to death.

Score
ECL: 4
Attr: 8
Wealth: 10
Victory: 9*
Awareness: 0
Total: 31/50

*90% since TDC may hear and attack the sorcerer, hitting and killing him while casting summon swarm.

Oh. Also, all hardcover-published official 3.5 rules are permitted. Give it your best shot!


Addendum 1 (honors to Biffoniacus_Furiou): The encounter area is of indeterminate size. Roughly half of the area is land, the other half is aquatic of various depths. The entire encounter zone is dotted with caves 20' in diameter. If TDC is being injured and unable to counterattack for any reason, it retreats beneath the water and into a cave. Starting range added to the Awareness category.

Addendum 2 (honors to JaronK): TDC will always find your character to be the tastiest thing on the map, and will attack you if possible, ignoring other nearby opponents. TDC will provoke AoOs to attack you, only if it makes sense to do so, befitting its Wisdom attribute.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I accept the challenge! I'll make a level 3 warblade/level 1 swordsage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Unseelie Fey Xeph Warlock 1, Flaw: Inattentive (optional); Feats: Psicrystal Affinity, Improved Flight (optional); Invocations: Eldritch Spear.

ECL 1, 0 point buy, 0 gp. He's flying out of TDC's reach, his spot and listen checks are at -5, his Psicrystal is walking along the ground.

TDC gets a surprise round and obliterates the psicrystal. This guy proceeds to Eldritch Blast it to death. Chance of success: 100%, scoring:
ECL 1 (10 points)
0 point buy (10 points)
0 gp wealth (10 points)
100% chance of winning (10 points)
TDC got a surprise round (10 points)
Total: 50/50

[BIGMamaSloth]

Unseelie Fey Xeph Warlock 1, Flaw: Inattentive (optional); Feats: Psicrystal Affinity, Improved Flight (optional); Invocations: Eldritch Spear.

ECL 1, 0 point buy, 0 gp. He's flying out of TDC's reach, his spot and listen checks are at -5, his Psicrystal is walking along the ground.

TDC gets a surprise round and obliterates the psicrystal. This guy proceeds to Eldritch Blast it to death. Chance of success: 100%, scoring:
ECL 1 (10 points)
0 point buy (10 points)
0 gp wealth (10 points)
100% chance of winning (10 points)
TDC got a surprise round (10 points)
Total: 50/50

Well, that ended pretty quickly.

[Leewei]

Hahaha. Beautiful build!

Okay, new encounter rule. The encounter area is roughly half water, half land. Both areas are spotted with 20' diameter caves. If TDC is taking damage and unable to counterattack, it will retreat underwater and into a cave.

[Lateral]

Add some sort of adjustment for tier; this is pretty much a nonchallenge for your standard tier 1 and above who can just cast... say, shivering touch or something.

[Leewei]

I very well may end up doing this. Since this is a very specific optimization challenge, I'll wait for a build submission that breaks things again -- then tweak the challenge and credit the poster that necessitated the rules change.

[Lateral]

I wonder if we can dig up Shneeky to do an intimidator Samurai entry... :smallamused:

[Greenish]

Ego whip would whip that thing in two rounds, tops. The trick would be to survive if you rolled poorly on the first round. Enhanced Elan Resilience?

[JaronK]

Stupid answer: Gnome Wizard 1, 0 point buy. Wizard sells his spell book (5kgp value, roughly, sold for 2500gp) and puchases two Warbeast (MMII) Dire Bears at 1075gp each, slaps on some Studded Leather Barding for each animal, spending the remaining 200gp on a nice mount for himself (A Donkey with saddle, perhaps? Splurge for a 16gp Magebreed Donkey?). With what's left of his funds, he smears some fowl smelling paste on the Donkey so nobody wants to eat it.

He travels flanked by Warbeast Dire Bears. Each bear has the following statistics:

Large Animal, War Trained
HD: 13d8 + 78 (139 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed 50ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +7 natural, +3 studded leather barding), touch 10, flat foot 19
Base Attack/Grapple +9/+25
Attack: Claw +21 Melee (2d4+12)
Full Attack: 2 claws +21 melee (2d4+12) and bite +15 melee (2d8+6)
Space/Reach 10ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Improved Grab
Special Qualities: Low Light Vision, Scent
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +10
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +12, Swim +14
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Run, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Claw)
CR 8

Crab can have the surprise round. Crab attacks one of the flanking bears, and gets promptly eaten by both of them. The bears are war trained (so they follow orders), hit on 2s (the bite hits on a 4), and kill in two full attacks. Also, they're better grapplers and they have Improved Grab, plus they can gang up on the crab. The crab has a 50% chance to hit (shockingly good) but the bears have FAR too many hitpoints for that to matter.

I'm thinking that's just about 100% chance of victory. Of course, it's a pretty stupid character, but there you go.

JaronK

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ego whip would whip that thing in two rounds, tops. The trick would be to survive if you rolled poorly on the first round. Enhanced Elan Resilience?

[Mind-Affecting]

[Greenish]

[Mind-Affecting]Right-o, forgot.

[Leewei]

Stupid answer: Gnome Wizard 1, 0 point buy. Wizard sells his spell book (5kgp value, roughly, sold for 2500gp) and puchases two Warbeast (MMII) Dire Bears at 1075gp each, slaps on some Studded Leather Barding for each animal, spending the remaining 200gp on a nice mount for himself (A Donkey with saddle, perhaps? Splurge for a 16gp Magebreed Donkey?). With what's left of his funds, he smears some fowl smelling paste on the Donkey so nobody wants to eat it.

He travels flanked by Warbeast Dire Bears. Each bear has the following statistics:

Large Animal, War Trained
HD: 13d8 + 78 (139 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed 50ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +7 natural, +3 studded leather barding), touch 10, flat foot 19
Base Attack/Grapple +9/+25
Attack: Claw +21 Melee (2d4+12)
Full Attack: 2 claws +21 melee (2d4+12) and bite +15 melee (2d8+6)
Space/Reach 10ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Improved Grab
Special Qualities: Low Light Vision, Scent
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +10
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +12, Swim +14
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Run, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Claw)
CR 8

Crab can have the surprise round. Crab attacks one of the flanking bears, and gets promptly eaten by both of them. The bears are war trained (so they follow orders), hit on 2s (the bite hits on a 4), and kill in two full attacks. Also, they're better grapplers and they have Improved Grab, plus they can gang up on the crab. The crab has a 50% chance to hit (shockingly good) but the bears have FAR too many hitpoints for that to matter.

I'm thinking that's just about 100% chance of victory. Of course, it's a pretty stupid character, but there you go.

JaronK

Interesting. The crab is mindless, so I'd suspect it'd go for something it can reach at random - including the PC. The sale of the spellbook is pretty dubious as well. Could you go into some detail about the value calculation? I thought the 5kgp was the selling price of a full spellbook.

[Douglas]

Could you go into some detail about the value calculation? I thought the 5kgp was the selling price of a full spellbook.
Wizards start with "all" cantrips in their spellbooks. If you can find enough cantrips in all your many various splatbooks to fill it up...

[Leewei]

I've found 27 in various books. That's good for 27% of 5kgp, or 1,350gp.

[Greenish]

I've found 27 in various books. That's good for 27% of 5kgp, or 1,350gp.There's a bunch of them (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/SearchList.php).

[Lateral]

There's a bunch of them (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/SearchList.php).

I count 64 from that list.

[JaronK]

Interesting. The crab is mindless, so I'd suspect it'd go for something it can reach at random - including the PC.

Hence smearing foul smelling stuff on the donkey (which the PC is riding) and being flanked by the bears. A mindless creature won't go after the foul smelling thing that's hard to get to.


The sale of the spellbook is pretty dubious as well. Could you go into some detail about the value calculation? I thought the 5kgp was the selling price of a full spellbook.

Each page of the book is worth 100gp. Wizards get 3 first level spells and all 0 level spells (which also take a page). There's a LOT of 0 level spells if you look everywhere... honestly, it's been a while since I've done the calculations, but IIRC 5kgp is what I came up with last time after having looked through tons of sources. Crystal Keep listed 33 0 level spells, and that's not even all of them.

Though I did forget to give him Collegate Wizard as a feat, which gives him 6 first level spells. Even with just Crystal Keep's list and Collegate Wizard, that's still 3600gp in value. With one of the Mercantile feats (and a flaw) you could sell that for sufficient funds.

Honestly, this is just nitpicking over the details... the basic concept is that the Warbeast template lets you buy stupidly powerful stuff really cheap, and selling your spellbook does work (until you actually want to be useful of course, but it's not like people actually play 0 point buy characters anyway).

Oh, and an even dumber submission:

Human Commoner 1 with the Pig and Tasty flaws. 0 point buy, crab gets surprise.

Round 1: Grab attacks Commoner, which he must do because of both Pig and Tasty (they make monsters REALLY want to eat you). This kills Commoner, causing him to drop Pig.

As per the Pig flaw, dropping the pig results in Orcus instantly appearing and killing everything, including the crab. Note that the challenge was to beat the crab, not to win, and the crab is decisively beaten. Also, Orcus must then eat the Commoner, due to the Tasty flaw. He might as well eat the crab too while he's there.

Do I get extra credit for using an NPC class with two flaws and no feats?

JaronK

[Leewei]

There's a bunch of them (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/SearchList.php).

That's actually a nice resource.

Since the querying is done by Post (i.e. the query logic doesn't show in the URL), the link is broken. I tried manually querying and got an impressive list of 0 level spells.

Unfortunately, it looks like at least some of them are not from hardcover official sources.

[Douglas]

I don't think April Fools Dragon magazine material should really count, here.

[Lateral]

Odds of winning for that are 0% (since you die), but otherwise I applaud you, JaronK.

[Leewei]

...
Note that the challenge was to beat the crab, not to win, and the crab is decisively beaten.
...

I like the idea of having someone with the Tasty flaw made me crack a grin. However:

"Winning is defined as the character being alive when TDC is completely disabled or at -10hp."



...

Do I get extra credit for using an NPC class with two flaws and no feats?

JaronK

Nice try. :smallwink:

[Forged Fury]

Odds of Winning
Your character needs at least a 50% chance of winning under the combat conditions. Round the odds to the nearest 10%, then divide by 10 to determine this score. Winning is defined as the character being alive when TDC is completely disabled or at -10hp.
@JaronK: Sadly, bolded for emphasis. You would receive 0 Victory points, but could reliably max the remainder.

What's the ECL of a Commoner anyway? 0? 1/2?

You may be able to squeeze 41 or 42 points out of that build, which is a far cry better than many PC class characters.

[Leewei]

Back to the wizard submission:

Smearing nasty stuff on a donkey has no reliable game effect. I'm pretty sure you must have the minimum ability score to cast a spell in order to add it to a spellbook. There may be an end-run around this for starting spells.

I believe the warbeasts would still require a Handle Animal check in order to get them to attack TDC. This is normally a Move action.

Even so, I think the exploit of adding more targets than the PC into the fray is probably enough to break this. I'll be updating the challenge accordingly. :smallsmile:

[Leewei]

@JaronK: Sadly, bolded for emphasis. You would receive 0 Victory points, but could reliably max the remainder.

What's the ECL of a Commoner anyway? 0? 1/2?

You may be able to squeeze 41 or 42 points out of that build, which is a far cry better than many PC class characters.

Commoner 1 is ECL 1 -- the CR is certainly lower.

[Darrin]

TDC can't fly... so I think a Hengeyokai Sparrow Warlock could solo it at ECL 1. +16 on ranged touch attacks so I only miss on a "1" up to three range increments, and with a +22 Hide check he can't Spot me unless I attack in the same round. If he goes underwater and hides in a cave, summon swarm should either finish him off or draw him back out.

[Leewei]

Hmm. Can you summon underwater?

[Firechanter]

Question. What would be the _appropriate_ CR for That Damn Crab?
By the common homebrewer's formula, I'm arriving at CR7. That's primarily based on its HP, AC and special qualities, but doesn't take speed or reach into account.

[CTrees]

I like the idea of having someone with the Tasty flaw made me crack a grin. However:

"Winning is defined as the character being alive when TDC is completely disabled or at -10hp."




Nice try. :smallwink:


Okay, how about this version - Class, irrelevant (let's say, warrior, level one). Zero starting wealth, zero point buy. Start with explorer's clothes, sell, buy peasant clothes. Hire a commoner for the day that happens to have the Pig and Tasty flaws with part of the proceeds. Walk behind the commoner, give the crab surprise. Presumably, Orcus will attack the nearest things first, and thus TDC should be at -10hp moments before you are. Several spells have descriptions that still involve, say, a line of lightning traveling forward, or a ball of fire expanding outward, however quickly, so the crab should be dead a few nano-rounds before you are, and the rules only say that you must be alive when the crab dies, not that you have to be alive one femtosecond later.

[Darrin]

Hmm. Can you summon underwater?

I was going to say "no", because I thought you could only summon something into an environment where it could survive normally (i.e., no summoning aquatic creatures on land) but I can't find this rule in the PHB/SRD.

So... if there is no such rule, then so long as you consider a water square to be an "open location on a surface capable of supporting it", then yes, you can summon underwater.

[Morph Bark]

Human Commoner 1 with the Pig and Tasty flaws. 0 point buy, crab gets surprise.

I like the idea of having someone with the Tasty flaw made me crack a grin.

So you want tasty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9361109) and with a pig (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9342772), eh? :smalltongue:


Okay, how about this version - Class, irrelevant (let's say, warrior, level one). Zero starting wealth, zero point buy. Start with explorer's clothes, sell, buy peasant clothes. Hire a commoner for the day that happens to have the Pig and Tasty flaws with part of the proceeds. Walk behind the commoner, give the crab surprise. Presumably, Orcus will attack the nearest things first, and thus TDC should be at -10hp moments before you are. Several spells have descriptions that still involve, say, a line of lightning traveling forward, or a ball of fire expanding outward, however quickly, so the crab should be dead a few nano-rounds before you are, and the rules only say that you must be alive when the crab dies, not that you have to be alive one femtosecond later.

If Orcus uses Meteor Swarm and targets you with one of them (they all fly at the same time (same action)), you'd die at the same time as the crab, which makes it a problem. Also, there's the possibility that the crab will attack from behind.

[WinWin]

Level 3 half elf cleric. Assume half Drow. Takes the Master of Spiders alternate class feature from Drow of the Underdark.

Relevant attributes: Charisma at least 16. 5 skill ranks in Knowledge Religion.

feats:
Improved Turning. Raises effective level to 4 for turning.
Quicken Turning. Can turn as a free action.

Equipment:
Masterwork holy symbol.
Big stick.

rebuke check Charisma +3 (5 with eagles splendor), + 2 skill bonus, + 2 masterwork, +9 total.

rebuke check required to effect 7hd vermin = 10+

minumum turning damage. 9.

Tactics? Buff and turn as a free action until crab cowers in awe. Then hit with big stick. Repeat turn checks as neccesary to keep crab subdued, preferably start well before awe expires.

edit: I had thought about a Rootwalker Druid (dungeonscape) using Vermin Empathy to gain the crab as a pet then using Vermin Handler to train it as a warbeast mount. I doubt the crab would wait for a minute for any empathy check to even function though. May be possible via Sarcred Vows (peace, noviolence), but not if the crab runs away. This would take at least 4 levels to come online.

[JaronK]

Since I've yet to convince you to disallow either animals or cheap money tricks, I'll now present the following pants on head stupid build:

Whispergnome Binder 1, 0 point buy, no wealth, the works.

Go to Icerazor (the city in Frostburn) while binding Naberius. In ice razor they let you take 1d6 con damage (bleeding) and then pay you for the blood (10gp per point of con damage you took). Since you're binding Naberius you heal one con damage per round, so you can simply do this again every time you're healed, allowing you to make 6kgp per hour. Do this for ten hours per day for 10 days (there's no limit, I just want easier math) and now you have 600kgp at level 1.

Now purchase a Magebreed Warbeast Desmoderu Hunting Bat (cost is IIRC around 475gp) as well as 10 Magebreed Warbeast Dire Bears (each is twice the cost of the Dire Bears from before) wearing Full Plate Barding, and purchase 11 castings of Awaken from a Druid so now you have an army of bears and can fly. Make sure the bears took tracking breed as well as +4 Str for their Magebreed choices. Use your 10 intelligent tracking bears and your Blindsighted bat to hunt down the crab while keeping in the air so it won't attack you. Have your bears voluntarily give the crab the surprise round (teach them it's the way of honorable combat or something) and then they can just eat the stupid crab. Also, you've still got at least 400kgp, so buy yourself some awesome magic items.

Chance of victory? 100 percent (it can't even reach you, and it doesn't stand a chance against 10 magebreed warbeast dire bears in full plate). WBL? None. Point Buy? None.

Total victory!

Note, to ban this, just ban any selling of anything (including blood, spellbooks, etc).

JaronK

[faceroll]

Love it, Jaron K. Haha, awesome.

I'm wondering what the lowest level character is that can reliably go toe-to-toe with it. That +19 grapple is a huge bummer.

[Boci]

Unseelie Fey Xeph Warlock 1

Don't you have to roll a %-tage die to get flying from unseelie fey?

[Greenish]

I'm wondering what the lowest level character is that can reliably go toe-to-toe with it. That +19 grapple is a huge bummer.Goliath psywarr 2 could match it, for a few rounds.

[faceroll]

I would say a Dark Aquatic Kobold rogue, but that requires a web enhancement to Races of the Dragon. That kobold gets 2 claws and an attack, and a bite attack, and slight build. Dark gets us Hide in Plain Sight. Aquatic lets us go underwater. ECL 2. Rogue gets us necessary skill points and sneak attack. We're also assuming that a tiny kobold can reach vital organs on the crab. Presumably, under water it can, as it simply swims into the creature's space and goes to town.

The highest possible checks on listen and spot TDC can get are +20. We need to hit a hide check of 41 to be able to attack and stay hidden, and a move silent check of 21 to avoid being pinpointed (being pinpointed means the crab knows which square to attack).

First, ability scores.
Dex is 22; 18 from PB, and +2 from race and a potion of shrink person. All other ability scores are 8. Strength is 2 (8 base, -4 kobold, -2 shrink person).

Feats:
Stealthy
Skill Focus: Hide
Weapon Finesse

Skills- we only need hide and move silently.
Hide= +41. 4 from ranks, 6 dex, 3 skill focus, 2 stealthy, 8 dark template, 2 item, and 16 size. We always can hide after atttacking, and not be spotted (thanks Hide in Plain Sight!).
Move Silent= +20. 4 ranks, 6 dex, 2 item, 2 stealthy, 6 template. Roll of 1, we cannot be pinpointed.

We have an attack bonus for the claws of +8, and an attack bonus of +3 for the bite. Damage for each is 1d2 (base while small) -4 (str) +1d6 (sneak attack), average 3.5 damage per attack. The claws have a 60% chance of hitting; the bite has a 35% chance of hitting. That's an average of 5.4 damage/round. That will take our rogue an average of 12 rounds to kill; 14 for the two potions of shrink person he'll have to quaff. If he has to chase crabby around, his damage drops to 2.1/round, which means at least 39 rounds to kill and 4 potions of shrink person.


Goliath psywarr 2 could match it, for a few rounds.

Wouldn't be able to kill it. First level grapple circumvention is pretty much limited to enlarge person, grease, and expansion. Grease and expansion won't last more than 4 rounds (using overchannel), and enlarge person doesn't work on goliaths. Deploying enlarge person boosts your grapple check by +5, so for an orc barbarian in a rage reckless rage, that's +17. You lose more than 50% of the time. That means you get smacked for 1d8+9 damage, then automatically take another 1d8+9 damage from constrict. That's an average of 27 damage in rounds when it hits and grapples. Even a reckless raging water orc barbarian with 16 base con only has an average of 42 HP at level 3. Using whirling frenzy boosts AC by two, drops HP by 6, and doubles number of attacks. Damage with a large greatsword is 3d6+15, average 25. If he uses

No barbarian is going to have that great of AC, which means the crab is hitting at least 50% of the time. Every time it hits, the barbarian loses half his HP and his next turn trying to escape. Upon escaping, TDC gets another 50%+ shot of killing him. he has a 50% chance of removing 1/3 of the creature's HP; and a 25% chance of removing 2/3rd HP.

I'd give the barbarian like 1 in 8 odds of killing it, and he needs 3 levels and the highest PB possible.

[SurlySeraph]

For reliable, maybe Water Orc Wizard 3/ Bear Totem Barbarian 2?

Feats
1 Aberration Blood, Warped Mind (flaw), Deepspawn (flaw)
2 Improved Grapple (bonus)
3 Reckless Rage
Weapon Focus (Grapple) (with the ACF that trades out Scribe Scroll for a Fighter bonus feat).

Grapple check: 22 base Strength for +6, Rage +2, Reckless Rage +1, BAB +3, Fearsome Grapple +4, Enlarge Person +5, Bull's Strength +2, Improved Grapple +4, octopus familiar +3, Aberration Blood +2, Deepspawn +2, Weapon Focus (grapple) +1, Armbands of Might +2, for a final +37.
For damage, cast Resist Energy and set yourself on fire for 1d6 per round, and cast Babau Slime for another 1d8 per round, in addition to attacking normally. Or Balor Nimbus, for 6d6, but that spell is kinda borked.

EDIT: That brings to mind another idea. Human Transmuter 3 with two flaws, take Metamagic School Focus (Transmutation), Spell Focus (Necromancer), MSF (Necromancy), Fell Drain, and Easy Metamagic.
Cast Fell Drain Babau Slime, Fell Drain Body of the Sun, Fell Drain Urchin's Spines, and Fell Drain Death Armor to give the crab 4 negative levels when it grabs you, meaning it'll kill itself on the second attack it makes.

Using Spell Flower to keep two castings of Fell Drain Chill Touch up lets you hit it with two more negative levels on your action. An Azurin with Midnight Metamagic and Improved Essentia Capacity could add in Fell Drain Kaupaer's Quickblast (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050112a) for another negative level for a one-round kill, but there's no way to get enough feats for that.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

The late Author Dent
Commoner 1/Savage Progression Ghost 1
0 P gearoint buy
No Feats or skills of consequence
Ghostly Gear: staff, sling and an arbitrary number of stones 0gp

Author is flying around minding his own business when he notices a giant crab snapping up at him. He pulls out his sling and takes some pot shots between his abysmal aim and the miss chance he doesn't manage to hurt it till his seventh shot. He continues loosing stones as it retreats under water and into it's cave where he walks though the and swinginrg his staff through the cave wall. Every dozen or so swings he pops his face out a half inch for a second to see if the creture has moved. It takes the better part of the day but eventually the tortured weary beast is slain.

It immediatly rises as a ghost brute and slices author in half.

ECL: 8
Point Buy: 10
Wealth: 10
Chance of winning: 9
Awareness:10

I'd say there's some chance of him getting sloppy and getting attacked while tracking the crab.

Alternatively with ghost 2 he could have telekinisis at cl 12 allowing him to throw a tree or boulder for 12d6.

ECL:6
Point Buy:10
Wealth:10
Chance of winning:10
Awarness:10

[faceroll]

Savage Species is 3.0 hardback, not 3.5 :smallwink:


Human Warmage 1. Feats: Split Ray, Fell Drain, Versatile Spellcaster, Sanctum Spell.

3 Split Ray Fell Drain Rays of Frost do 6 negative levels, followed by 1 Fell drain magic missile, for 7 negative levels.

[Boci]

Hide= +41. 4 from ranks, 6 dex, 3 skill focus, 2 stealthy, 8 dark template, 2 item, and 16 size. We always can hide after atttacking, and not be spotted (thanks Hide in Plain Sight!).

Aren't you still taking the -20 penalty for attacking?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

We'll see if the OP meant to exclude 3.0, probably did now that I look back.

Good entry how does your warmage get the crab when it goes to it's cave after you start pinging it? You might have to enter his charge range to get LOS.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Aren't you still taking the -20 penalty for attacking?

I think he's accounted for it he has a +41 check against a critter with a +0 spot.

[Boci]

I think he's accounted for it he has a +41 check against a critter with a +0 spot.

That makes sense.

[dextercorvia]

Don't you have to roll a %-tage die to get flying from unseelie fey?

No. It lets you pick or roll.

[Boci]

No. It lets you pick or roll.

Wow, thats dumb. Rolling a %-tage was dumb as well, but selecting one is even more dumb.

[dextercorvia]

I think the option to roll is for a DM who doesn't want to decide.

[JaronK]

Okay, for a slightly more serious challenge, the mighty craftsman tank, proving that AC is the best thing ever (against single enemies who have no one else to attack and only attack AC, of course). Since he's a master craftsman, he's going to craft his own mundane gear for 1/3 normal price (are we noticing a WBL shenanigans theme here?).

Point Buy 12 (+2 Con, +4 Dex, +6 Int)
Total stats: 24 Str, 18 Con, 10 Dex, 10 Int, 6 Cha, 8 Wis

Grog, Half Minotaur Water Orc Crusader 1/Fighter 1
Feats: Skill Focus (Craft Armorsmithing), Focused Shield, Skill Focus (Craft Weaponsmithing), Weapon Focus Battleaxe, 2 Flaws, Track
AC 29 (+11 Mechanicus Gear, -1 Large, +4 Natural, +4 Tower Shield, +1 Focused Shield), 23 Hp
Attack Battleaxe +7 (2d6+7), Gore +4 (1d8+3)
Maneuvers: Martial Spirit, Crusader's Strike, rest doesn't really matter
Scent, Darkvision 60, always know north

WBL 2700gp
Large Mechanicus Gear +1 2166gp6sp6cp (note, he crafts the base armor, but then has it enchanted)
Large Masterwork Battleaxe 103.33gp
Large Wooden Heavy Shield 4.66gp
Masterwork Weaponsmithing Tools (50gp)
Masterwork Armorsmithing Tools (50gp)
Spend the rest of the money on butter, cooking supplies, and packs to carry and cook the crab meat

Skills: Craft (Weaponsmithing) 5 (+10), Craft (Armorsmithing) 5 (+10)

So, first Grog makes his armor and weapons at 1/3 cost, cause he's awesome like that (he can just take 10). His AC is so high that the crab only hits on a natural 20, and his dex doesn't matter, so crab gets the surprise round. The crab will, on average, do 3 damage per round (1/20 chance to hit even when charging, two attacks, 1d8+9 damage). Grog meanwhile has a 9/20 chance to hit for an average of 14 damage and an additional 6/20 chance to do 7 damage in a round, for a total of 5.25 damage per round, in addition to healing an average of 1.7 hp per round from Martial Spirit (he could also use Crusader's Strike sometimes if he wanted, but that's hardly critical). Since he's large, the crab can't use Improved Grab, so it's just a slug fest. On average, it takes the crab 18 rounds on average to kill Grog, but Grog takes down the crab in just 12 rounds (and we haven't even factored in Steely Resolve or his maneuvers).

Scoring: This is pretty much 100% chance of victory for Grog in a straight up slug fest. He's ECL 3 with WBL on his side. He's got 12 point buy, and surprise round doesn't matter.

Points:
6 ECL
Point Buy 6 (by the way, why does your example say that 20 point buy gets 7 points... shouldn't that be 3 points?)
5 WBL
10 Odds of winning
10 Surprise round given to crab (hey, he's in Mechanicus Gear, what do you expect?)

Total points: 37. And hey, this time I didn't use anything TOO silly.

JaronK

[Boci]

AC 22 (+10 Mechanicus Gear, -1 Large, +4 Natural, -1 Dex), 21 Hp


You must have typed that wrong, because the crab is hitting you on a 12 with that AC.

[JaronK]

Gah, I kept editing and editing and lost track of what I was doing! Hang on, I'll get that back to 29 AC where it belongs...

JaronK

[faceroll]

Half Minotaur is from DR 313, which is decidedly not 3.5 hardcover book.

[Boci]

Gah, I kept editing and editing and lost track of what I was doing! Hang on, I'll get that back to 29 AC where it belongs...

JaronK

The crabs slightly more accurate then, hitting you 10% of the time, 20% on a charge, but couldn't TDC still grapple you, its just a touch attack?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

The crabs slightly more accurate then, hitting you 10% of the time, 20% on a charge, but couldn't TDC still grapple you, its just a touch attack?

No, he's the same size as the crab, improved crab requires you to be larger than your opponent to function.

He does need to come up with a legal substitute for half minotaur though. That will hurt him a bit. Probably not enough to tip the scales though.

On second thought Half minotaur is pretty freaking broken he'll probably need to go up a ECL to compensate.

[Boci]

No, he's the same size as the crab, improved crab requires you to be larger than your opponent to function.

But grapple doesn't.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

That would be tactically appropriate from the view of the omniscient observer, but is it what the crab would do? While in a losing slugfest with it's grapple special ability foiled would it attempt a grapple?

If so a clarification in the challenge post might be called for.

JaronK does need to change his build to use a different template though, maybe when he does he'll add a single use item to aid his grapple check.

[Forged Fury]

I don't know, I would think the crab would intuitively know that it has to hunt larger creatures (Attack and/or grapple) in a manner different than it hunts smaller creatures (Improved Grab). I think a creature, particularly one with no intelligence or low intelligence, will default to whatever its most effective attack form is. In D&D, that would be the one that has the highest bonus/damage potential.

[faceroll]

That would be tactically appropriate from the view of the omniscient observer, but is it what the crab would do? While in a losing slugfest with it's grapple special ability foiled would it attempt a grapple?

The crab has constrict. RL crabs use their powerful claws to open things up with AC higher than they can attack through (like a snail). It would make perfect sense for the crab to begin attempting to grapple the metal container that smells like food so it can start to peel it open.

[Darrin]

Hengeyokai Sparrow Warlock 1
Str 8 (1), Dex 8 (23), Con 8 (10), Int 8, Wis 6, Cha 8
Feat: Skill Focus (Craft: Basket-Weaving)
Invocation: Summon Swarm

ECL 1: +10 points
Point Buy: +10 points
Wealth 0 GP: +10 points
Odds 100%: +10 points
Awareness: +10 points (flying 15' above crab)
Score: 50/50

Alternate between summon swarm/eldritch blast. If crab retreats into underwater cave, summon swarm until he comes out again.

Nitpick: Hengeyokai's LA +1 was removed in the 3.5 update published in Dragon #318, not the OA Web Errata. If this isn't allowed, then LA is still +1.

[faceroll]

Summon Swarm is best used to summon rats, because a rat swarm has a +10 on their swim checks.

[JaronK]

I just went with the tactics of the crab, which says it attacks with its claws and hopes to get hold. It is mindless after all.

Really, the strength wasn't the issue, I just needed him to be large to deal with Improved Grab. It's really hard to do this with a melee otherwise, but I was trying to be a bit more sane in what I was doing this time (as opposed to just throwing armored bears at the crab all day long).

JaronK

[faceroll]

I just went with the tactics of the crab, which says it attacks with its claws and hopes to get hold. It is mindless after all.

Really, the strength wasn't the issue, I just needed him to be large to deal with Improved Grab. It's really hard to do this with a melee otherwise, but I was trying to be a bit more sane in what I was doing this time (as opposed to just throwing armored bears at the crab all day long).

JaronK

Swap out the half minotaur with a level of caster for enlarge person. Need 11 in a casting stat, though, which makes things harder if you're going with orc.

[JaronK]

Then I could get insta-killed in the surprise round, which I was trying to give him. I've been looking around for "no you can't grapple me" effects, but it's REALLY hard to do that at low CL.

JaronK

[faceroll]

It only hits on a crit, doesn't it?

[Geigan]

Then I could get insta-killed in the surprise round, which I was trying to give him. I've been looking around for "no you can't grapple me" effects, but it's REALLY hard to do that at low CL.

JaronK
Grease? Cast on your own clothing would give you +10 to escape artist and checks made to resist grapple. Not gonna do it by itself but it's certainly a start.

[faceroll]

Grease? Cast on your own clothing would give you +10 to escape artist and checks made to resist grapple. Not gonna do it by itself but it's certainly a start.

Lasts one round per level, and surprise round.

[JaronK]

Okay, new stupid approach, using the Lesser Drow from here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=2 It's mostly so I can take the feats that require being a drow without a level adjustment.

Venerable Unseelie Fey Lesser Drow Marshal 1 with Insectlike Wings
Point Buy 18 (+9 Char, +4 Con, +1 Int)
Stats: Str 2, Dex 6, Con 2, Charisma 22, Int 12, Wis 11
4 Hp, Initiative +1

Knowledge Religion 4, Handle Animal 4 (+16), Diplomacy 4 (+16), Intimidate 4 (+16), Bluff 4 (+16)
Feats: Vermin Friend, Vermin Trainer, Improved Initiative (Two Flaws), Skill Focus Diplomacy
Aura: Motivate Charisma

Tactics

Our little buddy flies around looking for the crab. When he finds it, he simply uses Vermin Trainer to make it his friend (he's got Verminfriend just in case and would need to roll a 4 or higher to avoid ever being attacked, but since he's flying it's not really an issue). Now it's his pet. The crab doesn't retreat because he's friendly. And then they go off and live happily ever after, with our drow using intimidate and the crab attacking to chase damn kids off his lawn.

Points: ECL 1, 18 point buy, 0 WBL, 100% chance of victory, surprise round goes to the crab if it wants. 6 points lower than max total possible. Note this could have been done with 0 point buy, simply by being old instead of venerable (so as not to die from 0 con) and not worrying about charisma. Verminfriend would be useless then but flying means that doesn't matter too much. Also, class doesn't really matter as long as you have Knowledge Religion and Handle Animal as class skills.

JaronK

[dextercorvia]

Then I could get insta-killed in the surprise round, which I was trying to give him. I've been looking around for "no you can't grapple me" effects, but it's REALLY hard to do that at low CL.

JaronK

Travel domain ability. Only 1 round/cleric level, but it doesn't kick in until you need it.

[WinWin]

I looked at the vermin training route a while back. Does not work the way you have it down.

First, Vermin Trainer only allows you to use Handle Animal on vermin, not alter their attitude. For that you need you need vermin empathy. Then you have to shift it's attitude from hostile if it has already decided to attack you. Unfriendly at the very least. That check takes a minute, because standard Wild Empathy takes a minute. The OP has already said that if it can't attack your character it runs away to it's underwater cave.

[Gwendol]

Quote: and enlarge person doesn't work on goliaths

This is news to me. Because of the monstrous humanoid type? That's a bummer for the Kavaki clerics (typically choosing the strength and travel domains).

[Hand_of_Vecna]

It retreats if being injured and unable to counterattack. Not being injured it will presumably stand there protecting it's territory and may eventually get bored of you.

[JaronK]

I looked at the vermin training route a while back. Does not work the way you have it down.

First, Vermin Trainer only allows you to use Handle Animal on vermin, not alter their attitude. For that you need you need vermin empathy.

I had thought Handle Animal works like Diplomacy for animals. Now that I look at it, nothing stops you from just using Diplomacy on animals, though Wild Empathy works as well... so I guess that works but it's weird. It would be better to have Vermin Empathy... is there any way to get that as a trade for Animal Empathy?


Then you have to shift it's attitude from hostile if it has already decided to attack you. Unfriendly at the very least. That check takes a minute, because standard Wild Empathy takes a minute. The OP has already said that if it can't attack your character it runs away to it's underwater cave.

Actually, mindless vermin evidently always start at indifferent... it's just that the "indifferent" status for a vermin means it will treat you as it would treat anyone else, which generally means "eat it." But with Verminfriend, theoretically it won't do that and you can sit there and train it.

Also, it only runs away if it's attacked back... I wasn't planning on doing that.

JaronK

[Darrin]

Another way to get flight at ECL 1:

Focused Specialist Wizard (Transmuter) + Precocious Apprentice, cast alter self and change into a avariel or air mephling. Requires Int 12.

Not sure what to do after that other than drop colossal-sized quarterstaves on top of it. Maybe a reserve feat like Fiery Burst (via body of the sun)?

[faceroll]

There is a significant chance of botching your roll to cast Alter Self, though.

[LordBlades]

DC to cast a CL 3 Alter Self scroll is 4, so a 1st level wizard needs to roll 3 or higher, which means he has only a 10% chance of failure.

[Darrin]

There is a significant chance of botching your roll to cast Alter Self, though.

Not when you use Focused Specialist, which trades the 2nd-level slot from Precocious Apprentice for two 2nd-level slots that can only be filled with transmutation spells. There is no caster level check to use these slots.

One spell slot is used for alter self, the other for body of the sun, a transmutation [fire] spell to satisfy Fiery Burst.

Even if a caster level check is required, the 10-minute duration should be sufficient to assume alter self was cast beforehand, and if the caster level check fails, the wizard goes home and tries again the next day.

[faceroll]

Not when you use Focused Specialist, which trades the 2nd-level slot from Precocious Apprentice for two 2nd-level slots that can only be filled with transmutation spells. There is no caster level check to use these slots.

One spell slot is used for alter self, the other for body of the sun, a transmutation [fire] spell to satisfy Fiery Burst.

Interesting. Would you mind detailing that a little more? Not 100% it works, but don't have wording for FS or precocious apprentice.

Oh wait, it doesn't work, not without the caster level check. If a wizard doesn't have a sufficiently high enough CL (3 in this case), he cannot cast a spell:

"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level."

Precocious Apprentice lets you, once per day, cast a 2nd level spell by making a check that circumvents this rule. Otherwise, you've got slots but no way of casting it.


Even if a caster level check is required, the 10-minute duration should be sufficient to assume alter self was cast beforehand, and if the caster level check fails, the wizard goes home and tries again the next day.

With a 30 minute duration, and an 8 hour adventuring day, I think not. It's only active for 1/16 of the time you're out wandering around. Unless you only travel for 30 minutes a day.

[dextercorvia]

Not when you use Focused Specialist, which trades the 2nd-level slot from Precocious Apprentice for two 2nd-level slots that can only be filled with transmutation spells. There is no caster level check to use these slots.

One spell slot is used for alter self, the other for body of the sun, a transmutation [fire] spell to satisfy Fiery Burst.

Even if a caster level check is required, the 10-minute duration should be sufficient to assume alter self was cast beforehand, and if the caster level check fails, the wizard goes home and tries again the next day.

I've never been satisfied that this worked, but even if it does, you have no mechanism for learning those two spells at 1st level. You lose access to whichever spell you could cast through PA, as soon as you get regular 2nd level slots. Unless you plan on forking over the 300gp to scribe a 2nd level spell in your book, which is way above WBL.



"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level."

Precocious Apprentice lets you, once per day, cast a 2nd level spell by making a check that circumvents this rule. Otherwise, you've got slots but no way of casting it.

The RAW here is unclear. Nowhere is the normal CL for a spell set out, and it depends at least on base class. It might also depend on other class features and feats. The argument can be made that if his 1st level wizard can cast 2nd level spells, then CL 1 is the normal CL for his character to cast that spell. Then you never have to invoke the choose clause.

[Darrin]

Interesting. Would you mind detailing that a little more? Not 100% it works, but don't have wording for FS or precocious apprentice.


Sinfire Titan explains it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5977378&postcount=5).

My understanding was this was a fairly well-established RAW method to get around the usual complaints about Precocious Apprentice (i.e., the idiotic "plural" argument).



Oh wait, it doesn't work, not without the caster level check. If a wizard doesn't have a sufficiently high enough CL (3 in this case), he cannot cast a spell:

"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level."


I haven't heard that argument against the Focused Specialist trick before... interesting. I'll have to ponder this a bit more.



With a 30 minute duration, and an 8 hour adventuring day, I think not. It's only active for 1/16 of the time you're out wandering around. Unless you only travel for 30 minutes a day.

I've got 10 minutes per day to fly around and find a suitable crab. If it takes 16 days... *shrug*


I've never been satisfied that this worked, but even if it does, you have no mechanism for learning those two spells at 1st level. You lose access to whichever spell you could cast through PA, as soon as you get regular 2nd level slots. Unless you plan on forking over the 300gp to scribe a 2nd level spell in your book, which is way above WBL.


On this point I wasn't sure how to get the 2nd level spells known... there's no "level up" so you don't automatically add two spells. And I don't think the text of Focused Specialist gants any additional spells known, just the spell slots. So... more pondering there.

[WinWin]

Actually, mindless vermin evidently always start at indifferent... it's just that the "indifferent" status for a vermin means it will treat you as it would treat anyone else, which generally means "eat it." But with Verminfriend, theoretically it won't do that and you can sit there and train it.

Also, it only runs away if it's attacked back... I wasn't planning on doing that.


I read the DMG about attitudes and also the description of vermin in the MM. I saw nothing about their default attitude being indifferent. I did read that base attitudes are set as appropriate for an encounter. I stand by threatening or hostile for the purpose of this excercise. But let's assume indifferent for a moment.

Indifferent means it does not care. You're nood food, so it ignores you. Kind of hard to train something when it does not care. In any case, you still require vermin empathy in order to influence the creature, because vermin training only allows you to train domesticated vermin, just as handle animal only allows you to train domesticated animals.

You want to have your character steal crab roe and rear them to maturity, you can do that with Vermin Training. But...That is not what you are suggesting.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I believe rootwalker druid gets vermin empathy.

[dextercorvia]

Sinfire Titan explains it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5977378&postcount=5).

I respect Sinfire Titan for his work in TO, but every once in a while, his grasp on the RAW seems a little shaky in a permissive way.

Focused Specialist is an ACF. As such, the things it replaces must be class features. The spell slot from Precocious Apprentice is not a class feature. Second, the word "additional" implies that there needs to be something to add to. Otherwise, Focused Specialist would give you 2 ninth level spell slots.



On this point I wasn't sure how to get the 2nd level spells known... there's no "level up" so you don't automatically add two spells. And I don't think the text of Focused Specialist gants any additional spells known, just the spell slots. So... more pondering there.

Bloodline Feats (blech) and Domain Wizard (Unavailable to Focused Specialist).

If we are playing this that close to RAW, my Versatile Domain Generalist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9) build will destroy TDC at ECL1. Ninth level spells will do that.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I agree with JaronK that the AP/FS extra 2nd level spell trick probably doesn't work but as for getting spells in your book I believe the apprentice:spellcaster feat from DMG II would do the trick.

Your mentor pretty much let's you copy whatever you want from his spellbook.

[JaronK]

I agree with JaronK that the AP/FS extra 2nd level spell trick probably doesn't work but as for getting spells in your book I believe the apprentice:spellcaster feat from DMG II would do the trick.

Your mentor pretty much let's you copy whatever you want from his spellbook.

...I haven't commented on that topic, unless I've been drunk posting again...

JaronK

[dextercorvia]

...I haven't commented on that topic, unless I've been drunk posting again...

JaronK

I'm guessing that HoV thinks all Halflings look alike. :smallbiggrin:

[JaronK]

That's sizism!

JaronK