Switching Crusader readied maneuvers system

[Sir_Chivalry]

I have a new player who is playing a crusader in my game, and I was wondering, what would be the best method to use?

1) the system as written

2) all her to ready maneuvers like the other two classes, where she picks and they are available from the start?

If 1- tips on helping her keep track?

If 2- how would this affect power level?

[Sir Enigma]

For keeping track - maneuver cards are the best way I've found. Put all your maneuvers on separate cards, shuffle them together, and deal out as many as you have granted at the start of your first turn (i.e. if you have 5 readied, 2 granted at lv. 1, shuffle 5 maneuvers together, deal out 2). Each turn after that, draw a new maneuver at the beginning of the turn. If there are none left to draw, instead shuffle them all together and re-deal granted maneuvers.

If you plan to give all the maneuvers readied at the start, how do they get refreshed once they're used? If it's every turn, it will be a significant boost - she can just use her best maneuvers/counters every turn.

[Amphetryon]

I've generally found the Crusader recovery mechanic the easiest for a new player to grok. Make index cards, flip them over, draw the number you can use, and flip them again as you use them.

Changing the way the Crusader recovers maneuvers may or may not be a significant change in power, but it would significantly alter the way the class plays from how it was designed.

[Draz74]

Yeah, I've seen a LOT of people over the years state that the Crusader system was actually very easy to work with, as soon as they used cards to keep track of it.

[Greenish]

The maneuver cards can be downloaded (legally!) from here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a), and are indeed worth using.

[Douglas]

I'd go with RAW, and keep track as follows:
Download the maneuver cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) and print out the ones you need. Cut them out and create a "deck" to represent her readied maneuvers.
When combat begins, she should shuffle her deck and draw the appropriate number of cards. The cards in hand are her granted maneuvers.
Each time she uses a maneuver, she discards it from her hand into a designated discard pile.
Each time she finishes her turn, she draws one more card from the deck.
Each time she goes to draw a card but there aren't any left, she shuffles her hand and discard pile together, turns it over to restore the deck, and draws a new initial set again just as at the beginning of combat.

With the physical cards to help keep track and the use of near-universal card game mechanics, it should be very easy to understand and remember.

[Physics_Rook]

Alternatively if you don't want to actually print out any cards, you could use playing cards instead.
Write down a list of your maneuvers (e.g. Crusader's Strike, Mountain Hammer, ect), and assign card values to them (CS = 2Clubs, MH = 2Hearts, ect).

Shuffle together whatever cards your maneuvers use and have fun!

[Firechanter]

I have a question about the recovery mechanics, too, guess it fits in here.

Let's say the Crusader arrives at a point where he has used a few of his maneuvers but not all, and the last withheld maneuver is granted to him. Now his remaining maneuvers would allow him to set up a cool combo, let's say a Boost and a Strike for an awesome charge.
Unfortunately, on your next turn you can't initiate that combo, because something has come up; some sort of obstacle that you need 1 turn to clear, and which you manage. So you could pull off your combo on the _next_ turn.
But *whoops* no more maneuvers can be granted to you.

Does that mean that your unused maneuvers are lost, the cards cashed in, and you randomly get new maneuvers granted to you? With the very reasonable risk that these won't include the boost and the strike you have been setting up to use?

That's basically how I understand the recovery mechanics as written, but that seems to be a bit stupid.

On the other hand, what would be the alternative?
That your remaining maneuvers don't cashed in, and you get one of your expended maneuvers granted again? That would mean that once charged up, you can basically infinitely spam your maneuvers and never run out. Hardly seems fair compared to the other classes.

So how is it actually handled?

[Veyr]

The Crusader's recovery mechanic is one of the single best mechanics in 3.5. It is elegant, easy to use (once you use cards), dynamic, and fun. It's far and away the best of the recovery mechanics in Tome of Battle.

[Douglas]

Does that mean that your unused maneuvers are lost, the cards cashed in, and you randomly get new maneuvers granted to you? With the very reasonable risk that these won't include the boost and the strike you have been setting up to use?

That's basically how I understand the recovery mechanics as written, but that seems to be a bit stupid.
That is pretty clearly (imo) how it's intended to work. You might find some people arguing differently based on extremely literal-minded hairsplitting readings of the fine print details, but I don't think many people actually play the way those arguments go.

[Greenish]

Does that mean that your unused maneuvers are lost, the cards cashed in, and you randomly get new maneuvers granted to you? With the very reasonable risk that these won't include the boost and the strike you have been setting up to use?That's the deal, use 'em or lose 'em. It's the price you pay for continuously auto-refreshing your maneuvers.

[Veyr]

This is also why I facedesk when people claim initiators are casters. They play completely unlike casters, the Crusader especially, for exactly that reason.

[Firechanter]

Thanks for the heads-up, guys. That's also how I've been reading it, but I can see the day coming where our fresh-made Crusader player is going to bitch about it. ^^

Also, another player who plays a Crusie in a different group (where I am not involved) thoroughly pulled the wool over his DM's eyes, by arguing that he'd get _2_ fresh maneuvers, _every turn_, which essentially means his maneuvers refresh faster than he can possibly use them. :p Well, none of my business since it isn't in my game, just an amusing anecdote.

[Veyr]

As for the scenario that you bring up: that's possible, but exceedingly unlikely. First, you have to have this come up just as you finish granting maneuvers. Second, the necessary maneuvers have to be withheld from you on your next turn (and most of the time you're only looking at two maneuvers in a 'combo' anyway due to the fact that they pretty much all take a standard/full action or a swift action). Third, what you do have has to somehow not work — and that's rather rare.

The Crusader's motto is that "a bunch of things selected at random from a list of awesome is still awesome."

[AslanCross]

One of my more inventive players (and the only one who's ever played the crusader) had a little box divided into three compartments: one for spent maneuvers, one for readied maneuvers, and one for granted maneuvers. It really worked for him--the biggest problem he had was forgetting to draw. :smallbiggrin:

[Amphetryon]

Thanks for the heads-up, guys. That's also how I've been reading it, but I can see the day coming where our fresh-made Crusader player is going to bitch about it. ^^

Also, another player who plays a Crusie in a different group (where I am not involved) thoroughly pulled the wool over his DM's eyes, by arguing that he'd get _2_ fresh maneuvers, _every turn_, which essentially means his maneuvers refresh faster than he can possibly use them. :p Well, none of my business since it isn't in my game, just an amusing anecdote.

That sounds like a variation on a build called "The Idiot Crusader." If so, it's legal-ish, though specific.

[Firechanter]

Nah, I don't think so. I was discussing ToB classes and stuff with said player and he seemed to honestly believe that this was the correct standard method of crusader refresh.