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DabblerWizard
2011-04-28, 03:40 PM
Hey folks.

Put simply:

Could anyone help me out by sharing systems that provide extensive role play / intrigue mechanics?

More specifically:

In comparison to systems that provide frameworks for tactics, combat, and the like, I'm interested in systems that provide for players interested in intrigue, role play, simulationism.

I don't mind systems that are heavy in BOTH role play AND tactics.

If you mention a system, please point out something (or a few things) that makes that system interesting.

For example:
Dungeons the Dragoning is an open source role playing game that calls itself a parody of other role playing games. Frankly though, the system provides an interesting and extensive framework for actual play.

I particularly enjoyed this game's take on "backgrounds", where players can choose to have specific types of resources available to them from the start of the game, including: Allies, Artifact possession, Organization affiliation, Contacts (that provide info at a price), Fame (among common folk), Loyal Followers, Holdings (physical property), Inheritance, Mentor, Status (among other big shots), and Wealth.

Knaight
2011-04-28, 03:48 PM
Synapse
Character motivations are based around about 20 quantified desires (e.g. succorance, autonomy), and the social skills key off this. People are more likely to believe bluffs that are keyed to their particular desires, its easier to convince people to follow their own interests, etc. Moreover, how these desires interact with the outside world influences how they change.

Oh, and it is free. There's that.

Lapak
2011-04-28, 03:51 PM
So you're looking for mechanically heavy systems, yes? Your thread title made me leap to things like In A Wicked Age, which I don't think is what you're looking for though it is extremely roleplay-heavy.

DabblerWizard
2011-04-28, 03:57 PM
So you're looking for mechanically heavy systems, yes? Your thread title made me leap to things like In A Wicked Age, which I don't think is what you're looking for though it is extremely roleplay-heavy.

I'm looking for any system that supports role play heavy gaming, whether mechanically, or some other way. If you could explain what that "other way" is, Lapak, I'd be most appreciative.

Ajadea
2011-04-28, 04:00 PM
Synapse
Character motivations are based around about 20 quantified desires (e.g. succorance, autonomy), and the social skills key off this. People are more likely to believe bluffs that are keyed to their particular desires, its easier to convince people to follow their own interests, etc. Moreover, how these desires interact with the outside world influences how they change.

Oh, and it is free. There's that.

Ooh, I like the sound of Synapse, but it seems I cannot download it from their site (404 not found). Do you know where to find it?

Knaight
2011-04-28, 04:17 PM
Ooh, I like the sound of Synapse, but it seems I cannot download it from their site (404 not found). Do you know where to find it?

I got it from the site, and am having trouble finding another source. I'll contact the designer and see about getting access, but I can't find a good download point currently.

EDIT: It is being fixed, in the man time the current blog (http://errantgame.blogspot.com/) has it and some other, inferior games.

Lapak
2011-04-28, 04:45 PM
I'm looking for any system that supports role play heavy gaming, whether mechanically, or some other way. If you could explain what that "other way" is, Lapak, I'd be most appreciative.It is encouraged mechanically, actually; it's just that the mechanics are intentionally minimal.
In A Wicked Age (http://www.lumpley.com/wicked.html) (review here (http://story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=13440)) works on a collaborative-storytelling basis, with the mechanical portions defining who your character is and allowing you to semi-hijack control of the story if there's disagreement about what happens. It's a sword-and-sorcery setting where the major elements of the plot are randomly determined and character traits break down into 'how are you best at dealing with conflict' and 'what do you want' - you assign dice to conflict Forms like 'With Violence' or 'For Others', and you pick Best Interests that will drive the plot.

As a (very) brief example, in the game I'm in, I'm running a thief whose Interests were "punish everyone responsible for his murdered wife's death" and "earn enough to give up life as a thief," good at resolving conflict 'Covertly' and 'For Love' but terrible at doing things 'Directly' or 'With Violence.'

You take turns describing what you're doing and what the results are, and the mechanics only come into play when someone tries to dictate another player's fate and that player objects. If someone - another player or the GM - says '... and then I run Lapak through with my spear...' I can (and will) invoke the rules to start a Conflict and determine who really gets to decide what happens. Since your success in the Conflict is determined by what approach you're taking to it (I have different sizes of dice if I'm pulling out my own sword to fight or trying to disappear into an alley and ambush my opponent, if I'm acting for my own best interest or someone else's, and so on,) there's a strong motivation to develop a clear role and take actions that fit within that role.

Basically, the system is geared towards creating a framework both plotwise and character-wise, and the people who do the best job of taking that framework and building a solid story and consistent characters on it are the ones who are most likely to put themselves in a position to succeed mechanically. The review goes into more detail, or I'd be happy to elaborate if that sounds like an angle you're interested in.

Odin the Ignoble
2011-04-28, 05:00 PM
Hero System is the best system if found for simulations. It's rules are highly in depth, and translate smoothly to real world physics.

Contacts, followers, favors from important NPCs, Fame and Reputations, Bases (physical property, or headquarters) and membership in larger organizations, are all represented mechanically.

dsmiles
2011-04-28, 07:01 PM
Mouse Guard
Mouse Guard is a heavily story driven turn-based game. During the GM's turn, the GM drives the story, and the players react. During the players' turn, the players pretty much drive the story, and the GM adjudicates their actions. Also, very kid-friendly, but tactics-light.

HoL
This is pure awesome. It really is a parody of RPGs, but is so much fun that you forget it's a parody. Tactics-light, dice-driven. Characters can die during chargen, but it's totally funny when it happens.

Bang!
2011-04-28, 07:26 PM
I'm not going to go for a comprehensive list, but here are a couple I've played and plan on playing again:

If you've done any improv, A Penny for My Thoughts steals its concept from some of the standard "Yes, And..." exercises. Players rp as amnesiacs who deliver narratives, incorporating other players suggestions to "remember" certain aspects of what brought them there (there are different goals you can use for different themed games). It was a little touchy-feely for my tastes, but I'm thinking about picking it up again for a game about senile Secret Identities trying to remember the Capes they wore. (Basically as a lead-in to a Necessary Evil-modeled super game.)

Fiasco is a pretty kicked-back game about making an interesting story from a mundane base. Everybody makes a character and introduces some plot elements to tie them together before the game starts. Then the players roleplay short scenes of character interaction, leaving other players with a decision midway through on how the scene will resolve. Players end up trying to set the scene and RP their characters in a way that convinces the other players that the more interesting resolve would be favorable or unfavorable to the player (both are good; it's the so-so outcomes that screw characters in the end). The game's primary encouragement for RP is in its opening setup, where players introduce locations, items and motivations based entirely on what would make the most interesting story. It's also really quick and requires almost no setup, which is no small part of why I play it (we print out the stock playsets because we're lazy, but they're free on the game's web page (http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/) so it's not a big deal).

Dust Devils is a Western that really embraces the genre. Characters are created with "Devils," typically weaknesses or traumas. The game is played through poker hands -- players draw a number of cards based on their statistics to resolve conflicts, highest poker value wins, highest card gets to narrate the scene. The game is similar to the more popular Fate system, in that a Character dealing with a Devil gets a poker chip, which can be exchanged for narrative control or attribute improvement. The Devil can also be used in place of certain attributes when the character is on the ropes. Players are also not encouraged to work together. In fact, they'll often be antagonistic in the scenarios introduced by the game. The end result has player characters confronting one another, competing for narrative rights and confronting their own weaknesses, all within a simple, flavorful and functional mechanical system.

...I don't really have time to go into detail on Dogs in the Vineyard, but it uses character values as conflict-resolution mechanics and places an emphasis on morality questions, which are often the most fun and gripping for RP.

Katana_Geldar
2011-04-28, 07:41 PM
Gumshoe

I played a Mutant City Blues game at a con and love it. There's also a Cthullu game and another which I forget.

Bang!
2011-04-28, 07:43 PM
Gumshoe

I played a Mutant City Blues game at a con and love it. There's also a Cthullu game and another which I forget.
Fear Itself is a nifty horror game.
Esoterrorists is for X-files kinds of stuff.

Mutazoia
2011-04-28, 08:40 PM
If you want a Role Play Heavy System, you need look no further than the Amber Dice-less Role Playing Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Diceless_Roleplaying_Game). No dice means EVERYTHING is role played....

rayne_dragon
2011-04-28, 08:50 PM
Ars Magica - play as wizards in 13th century europe where myths are reality. The rules are fairly loose and open to interpretation, with players limited more by their imagination than the rules when casting spells. It also encourages running the game in a way that brings out the story telling element in running the game. Plus having the game set amongst a backdrop of history and myth means that there needs to be less work done with inventing a world to set the game in.

Call of Cthulhu - survival horror game where the monsters are often too tough to fight, presuming they aren't just completely invulnerable. Call of Cthulhu has a sanity loss system and can lead to a lot of great when PCs go insane (and they will). The game also focuses a lot more on research, intrigue, and mystery than combat, so characters have lots of opportunity to play out social interactions.

Ajadea
2011-04-29, 12:27 AM
I got it from the site, and am having trouble finding another source. I'll contact the designer and see about getting access, but I can't find a good download point currently.

EDIT: It is being fixed, in the man time the current blog (http://errantgame.blogspot.com/) has it and some other, inferior games.

Thanks, Knaight!

EDIT: Reading over the mechanics, it already seems awesome. I may have to run a Synapse campaign...

Knaight
2011-04-29, 07:29 AM
Thanks, Knaight!

EDIT: Reading over the mechanics, it already seems awesome. I may have to run a Synapse campaign...

I really want to play Synapse, but it is so far past my GM crunch tolerance it isn't even funny. Any chance of this particular game being online?

gbprime
2011-04-29, 08:31 AM
Mechanics most definately =/= roleplay. There's no such thing as a "roleplay heavy" system. Instead, you have roleplay heavy GAMING GROUPS. With said groups, it doesn't matter what the rules are, the gamers will immerse themselves and act things out.

The three most fantastic roleplay groups I've been involved in used QAGs, Hero System, and D+D 2nd Ed. it was the people that did the roleplaying, not the rule sets.

And if your people are not inclined to play like that, then no amount of adopting rule sets is going to make them immerse themselves in a character like that.

Tengu_temp
2011-04-29, 09:27 AM
Mechanics most definately =/= roleplay. There's no such thing as a "roleplay heavy" system. Instead, you have roleplay heavy GAMING GROUPS. With said groups, it doesn't matter what the rules are, the gamers will immerse themselves and act things out.

Not entirely true. The majority of roleplaying relies on the group, yes, but the mechanics can encourage or discourage roleplaying. For example, games with heavily random character creation, ones that focus on dungeon crawling and those where it's very easy to lose your character, like OD&D or Cyberpunk 2020, discourage roleplaying - because it's harder to get attached to your character. On the other hand, roleplay-heavy games include:

Exalted - doing cool stuff gives you bonus dice and Essence. There's a lot of stuff that focuses on interaction between characters.

FATE/Spirit of the Century - a lot of the rules depend on roleplaying. The best way to win a conflict is to find or create a weakness in the enemy and then exploit it, which is always roleplayed and depends on the circumstances.

Weapons of the Gods - you get Virtue points and extra Destiny points for roleplaying. You get bonuses for acquiring Lores, which exist in-game. The fluff and crunch are very tightly connected.

Legend of the Five Rings - you gain and lose Honor depending heavily on how you roleplay. To advance to a higher rank, you need to ask for permission in a letter to your Daimyo. Has a setting where saying the right thing is often as important as doing the right thing.

profitofrage
2011-04-29, 09:29 AM
Has Rogue Trader been mentioned yet?
Although I dont like it all that much due to its scale, It is very much more about building a Dynasty in the grim future of the 41st melenium then straight out combat.
Theres ship combat, but half the time youll be making a boarding action which is just a command test ^_^ then its about Roleplaying your commanders sheer determination to push his men that bit further (rather then "aim shoot" 20 times.)

Ajadea
2011-04-29, 09:33 AM
I really want to play Synapse, but it is so far past my GM crunch tolerance it isn't even funny. Any chance of this particular game being online?

Not until after next week is over. Ask me then.

obliged_salmon
2011-04-29, 09:43 AM
Mechanics most definately =/= roleplay. There's no such thing as a "roleplay heavy" system. Instead, you have roleplay heavy GAMING GROUPS. With said groups, it doesn't matter what the rules are, the gamers will immerse themselves and act things out.

The three most fantastic roleplay groups I've been involved in used QAGs, Hero System, and D+D 2nd Ed. it was the people that did the roleplaying, not the rule sets.

And if your people are not inclined to play like that, then no amount of adopting rule sets is going to make them immerse themselves in a character like that.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. While certain groups can roleplay well in any system, I've seen people who roleplay 0% of the time in DnD become heavily involved in their characters' thoughts, feelings, beliefs and goals (whether or not they are optimal or moral) in other systems, such as Burning Wheel or White Wolf, where such things are part of the mechanic. Likewise, I've seen players who love roleplay stifle and wither in DnD, because they have nothing in the game to interface with for roleplaying.

That being said, I'll recommend Burning Wheel. Each character has beliefs that the player creates, which focus and drive the story forward. This is a great game if you can trust your players with creative impetus. GM's role is almost entirely reactive to the players, and the dice are the only arbiters of what happens.

Bang!
2011-04-29, 12:33 PM
Mechanics most definately =/= roleplay. There's no such thing as a "roleplay heavy" system. Instead, you have roleplay heavy GAMING GROUPS. With said groups, it doesn't matter what the rules are, the gamers will immerse themselves and act things out.In d20, you can get into the RP, play a situation out with character goals, adopted mannerisms and assumed persona, but the resolution of the situation comes down to a weighted coin toss which renders the whole process meaningless. If you have deliver a brilliant RP in D&D, you can still roll a 3 and have the game tell you that your Diplomacy check actually really sucked.

D&D also has objective alignment and divinations which render the most compelling RP topics unplayable, but that's not exactly a central component of the system, so even though I think it's worth mentioning, I'm not going to ride that point too hard.

To use a different example, in Polaris the rule system structures scenes, prompts RP when the narrative gets bogged down, uses character values and dramatic pacing as central components of its game structure and provides a roleplay system that's inherently interesting (instead of a superfluous shell around a more tactically compelling dice-based game).

You can roleplay in both systems, but one goes out of its way to help the process, and the other often serves as an active hindrance.

Epsilon Rose
2011-04-29, 06:47 PM
I'm going to second Amber, or any dice-less system. If there aren't any rules for power gaming, or roll playing than that's probably as close as you're going to get to actually forcing someone to Role play.
They could still not, but at that point it starts to look kinda silly.

Greylond
2011-04-29, 06:59 PM
Most people don't realize it but HackMaster is Heavy RP(both Editions). HackMaster has an Honor system that gives you Honor Points for Roleplaying your Character's Class and Alignment. Honor Points give you a couple of different bonuses. Your actual number of Honor Points in HackMaster puts you in a Honor Catagory, i.e. Dishonor, Low Honor, Average Honor, Great Honor, or Too Much Honor. Dishonor means that everyone, including NPCs and Monsters, treat you with the disrespect that such a dishonorable person deserves.

A Character in Great Honor gets a bonus. In HackMaster 4th Edition you get a +1 on EVERY Die Roll. In Hackmaster Basic/Advanced HM, you get a +1 to one die roll per session.

In both editions you can burn your Honor Points to modify a die roll but if you do, you don't get those points back.

The way you get Honor Points in HM4 is each game session the GM awards them based on your In Character actions based on your Alignment and Class. In HMb/AHM whenever the GM awards experience, you also get Honor.

In both systems, the way it works is that if you are playing a Mage and you are constantly running into combat and you aren't trying to use Magic to solve problems, then you don't get as much Honor. Same thing about Alignment. If you are Playing LG and you are doing Evil Actions then you don't get Honor and/or you lose Honor. In HM4 there are actually tables with many different actions and the effects on your Honor.

The thing about HackMaster is that too many people don't take it seriously enough to actually take a look at what it tries to do by enforcing RolePlay through game mechanics.

erikun
2011-04-29, 10:01 PM
Mechanics most definately =/= roleplay.
Well, I agree with you in part. There is no system that will stop you from roleplaying if you want to, and there isn't really a system out there that can force a player to roleplay when they don't want to.

On the other hand, the mechanics of the system will greatly encourange how most people play the game. If the game rewards players for killing NPCs rather than talking to them, then most players will end up killing NPCs rather than talking. If the game system rewards players for acting out their personality quirks, then most players will end up acting out their personality quirks.

As for the original topic:

World of Darkness
Each character gets a Virtue and a Vice. In general, when you act towards your Virtue/Vice which creates some risk to the character, they regain Willpower. The action needs to be done in some way that is disadvantageous to the character, though - lighting up a smoke at the end of a hard mission wouldn't count, but forgetting that you are supposed to be hiding and lighting up, potentially blowing your cover, would.

Mouse Guard
Mouse Guard features both Beliefs and Goals, and rewards characters who follow their beliefs and pursue their goals. It has Instincts, which are the equilivant of "always on" abilities and is something the character always does without being said: the Instinct "Draw my sword at the first sign of trouble" is used as an example, and can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the situation.

The system also uses "wises", which are skills centered around a particular general topic. Ship-wise would involve building boats, manning boats, and sailing navigation. It could be used for repairing a damaged boat or for determining how much a particular ship is worth.

The system also has the player create at least one friend and at least one rival, along with Circles (how connected the character is to important people, with the player generally coming up with the relevant NPCs and why they know the character).

Burning Wheel
Mouse Guard is based on Burning Wheel, so the two systems share a number of mechanics. Beliefs, Instincts, wises, and Circles are all part of Burning Wheel. It also emphasizes the difference between task and intent - an intent is a desire to do something, while a task is a specific action - and the GM suggestion of "Yes, and" rather than "No" for failed skill rolls. If a roll goes poorly, then it is encouraged to allow things to proceed, but with a complication - the rogue managed to get into the mayor's house successfully, but discovers magical traps throughout the mansion that he must be careful of tripping.

Faery's Tale
A fun little system, Faery's Tale has an interesting way to add challanges. Any one of the players may make a suggestion for adding a complication for their character to overcome. Doing so and getting it implemented (meaning that it makes sense and actually adds to the challange) grants the character Essence, which is effectively HP and can be spent on magical abilities.

A bit more in line with the theme of the game, but characters do not earn experience - they earn Boons from the people they help. Boons are the the promises and debts of the Fae world, and have magical power. Characters may exchange Boons for stat increases or for new abilities (much like experience in other systems), or they can call in a Boon for a favor or item from the NPC in particular. It's a rather flavorful way to express "experience", and has some roleplay potential for connecting NPCs to the characters.

While I haven't read through it, Exalted apparently grants bonuses for the most wild and outlandish action the player can think up. You are far more likely to hit and/or recover magical essence with firing a bow during a backwards sumersault off the roof of a burning building than simply smacking someone in the face with a longsword.

Lord Raziere
2011-04-29, 11:07 PM
hmmmmm.....

suddenly, I'm inspired....

make a system where every single thing you do enhances roleplay......

might just be crazy enough to work....

Greylond
2011-04-29, 11:35 PM
hmmmmm.....

suddenly, I'm inspired....

make a system where every single thing you do enhances roleplay......

might just be crazy enough to work....

HackMaster 4th Edition, Best Game of the Year 2001(Origins). ;)

a_humble_lich
2011-04-30, 02:31 AM
While I haven't read through it, Exalted apparently grants bonuses for the most wild and outlandish action the player can think up. You are far more likely to hit and/or recover magical essence with firing a bow during a backwards sumersault off the roof of a burning building than simply smacking someone in the face with a longsword.

As a big fan of Exalted I might say that the way it really enhances role play is that it has a combat system that is so messed up that it encourages players to avoid combat. :smallsmile:

Ozreth
2011-04-30, 04:35 AM
In d20, you can get into the RP, play a situation out with character goals, adopted mannerisms and assumed persona, but the resolution of the situation comes down to a weighted coin toss which renders the whole process meaningless. If you have deliver a brilliant RP in D&D, you can still roll a 3 and have the game tell you that your Diplomacy check actually really sucked.


Except that you will likely get a huge bonus to your diplo check for your brilliant speech. Also, you dont HAVE to use a diplomacy check to be diplomatic, but knowing that you can use one for a quick resolution to a not so important conversation is nice. Skill checks are their for convenience, not as the golden rule.

Also, the randomness of the dice keeps both the players and DM on their toes and forces them to constantly rethink and rework the situation. It's no fun when every single time you deliver a speech as well as T.S. Eliot you automatically win the argument/conversation/whatever.

Bang!
2011-04-30, 05:10 AM
Except that you will likely get a huge bonus to your diplo check for your brilliant speech.You mean +/-2?

And I'm not seeing how a random chance of success helps a player roleplay, when it stands a very real chance of undermining character traits. A character who is characterized as an acrobat may botch rolls and not be able to somersault for no narrative reason at all; an agoraphobe might be able to sing and dance through a crowd with a couple high rolls with no narrative justification beside the numbers on top of the dice.

Random successes might keep things interesting, but so do games with mechanics allowing narratively determined task resolution (the things d20 skills represent) with randomly modeled outcomes (where a failure indicates that somewhere something plot-wise is going to interfere). The difference is that the random successes directly interfere with characterization (the role that's being played) while other narrative mechanics don't.

Ozreth
2011-04-30, 05:43 AM
Why +/- 2? Why not +4 or more depending?

And who says that failures, even when decided by the dice, won't lead to plot differences down the line in a d20 game?

And why would you play a game where every single decision is made by the roll of a d20? Thats not how it is meant to be played. Most diplomatic situations, for example, shouldn't even call for a roll. I think you may be taken the rules offered far too literally. Read the beginning of the 3.5 DMG. The d20 game never lost the golden rule of previous editions. Rules are a guideline and everything is meant to be altered to fit the groups style, which is EASILY done with the d20 ruleset.

Bang!
2011-04-30, 12:59 PM
The +/-2 is the "GM's best friend" outlined in the 3e DMGs and d20 modern book. It's the only specification I've found on how to adjudicate success rates which could possibly be influenced by roleplay considerations. I admit that I could be missing something.

And no, I wouldn't play a game using d20 rolls to determine everything, but when those are abandoned, the d20 system doesn't offer anything else.

If you set those rules aside, why are you using that system with all its extra paperwork? If you don't set them aside completely, the problems are still there. At that point you're roleplaying despite the system, rather than with the help of the system. If you don't know how a system can promote or enrich RP, you might want to check out some of the systems people have been talking about here. Mouseguard seems especially popular on these forums.

As a side note, I'm not comparing 4e/d20/ADD; they're all pretty similar. I'm comparing them as a group to things like Burning Wheel or Polaris or the other games mentioned in this thread, which make active efforts to make RP fun, interesting and meaningful.

DabblerWizard
2011-05-02, 07:58 AM
I was incredibly inspired by Synapse, so I wrote a short review of my impressions of it in the Roleplaying Games subforum: Older d&d/ad&d and other systems thread.

Read up on it and let me know if you found my thoughts helpful, accurate, meaningful, etc.

Here's the link to the review.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197534

Knaight! Thank you so much for pointing me in this direction! :smallbiggrin:

stainboy
2011-05-02, 03:15 PM
HoL
This is pure awesome. It really is a parody of RPGs, but is so much fun that you forget it's a parody. Tactics-light, dice-driven. Characters can die during chargen, but it's totally funny when it happens.

I also recommend Freebase, a game by the same writers with a strong focus on character-driven cooperative storytelling.

nyarlathotep
2011-05-02, 05:13 PM
In d20, you can get into the RP, play a situation out with character goals, adopted mannerisms and assumed persona, but the resolution of the situation comes down to a weighted coin toss which renders the whole process meaningless. If you have deliver a brilliant RP in D&D, you can still roll a 3 and have the game tell you that your Diplomacy check actually really sucked.

This is a problem with all dice-based roleplaying systems. In world of darkness or exalted you can fail the die roll just as well. Will a good GM give you a free actionpoint/will power/random bonus to the check for good roleplaying or forgo the check all together, yes. But as long as there are dice involved in any situation you can roleplay in this problem occurs.



To use a different example, in Polaris the rule system structures scenes, prompts RP when the narrative gets bogged down, uses character values and dramatic pacing as central components of its game structure and provides a roleplay system that's inherently interesting (instead of a superfluous shell around a more tactically compelling dice-based game).

You can roleplay in both systems, but one goes out of its way to help the process, and the other often serves as an active hindrance.

Which polaris are you talking about there are 3 RPGs with that name.