[PF] is this viable: acid splash sneak attacker?

[DonDuckie]

This is just an idea I got trying to figure what to do with the cantrips class ability of most casting classes in pathfinder.

I came up with the base of:
- wizard 1
- rogue X
- maybe assassin
- maybe arcane trickster

what do I need to make this fly?

And is a blinded creature flat-footed or otherwise sneak attackable? by means of blindness/deafness in case I went arcane trickster.

[jmelesky]

I'm not sure what you mean by "viable" -- you can certainly do it, i'm just not sure what benefit it would have over, say, sneak attacking with a sling or bow.

And if that's the only cantrip you're interested in, consider just taking it as a minor magic rogue talent rather than taking a level in Wizard.


And is a blinded creature flat-footed or otherwise sneak attackable? by means of blindness/deafness in case I went arcane trickster.

Blinded creatures aren't flat-footed, but they do get penalties (-4) to their Perception checks, so you can Stealth against them a bit more easily. Also, if they try to move faster than half-speed, they run the risk of falling prone. Still not technically flat-footed, though, as far as i know.

[arkol]

i'm just not sure what benefit it would have over, say, sneak attacking with a sling or bow.

Ignoring armor, shield and natural armor bonus?

[jmelesky]

Ignoring armor, shield and natural armor bonus?

Ah, that's much better than my thought: you could be a halfling without your "weapon" damage being reduced.

Then, yes, should be viable. Ray of Frost might be a better one to start with, though, if only because you'll probably eventually want Weapon Focus (something), and there are far more rays than there are orbs in PF.

[grarrrg]

And if that's the only cantrip you're interested in, consider just taking it as a minor magic rogue talent rather than taking a level in Wizard.

Because Wizard Cantrips in Pathfinder are unlimited, and Minor Magic only gives you 3 uses/day.
And what arkol said.

[Drglenn]

what do I need to make this fly?

Get to 5th level of wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) :smalltongue:

On a more serious note, you would need to be a level 3 wizard to qualify for arcane trickster (you need 2nd level spells)

[jmelesky]

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm]On a more serious note, you would actually need to be a level 5 wizard to qualify for arcane trickster

Arcane Trickster requires access to a 2nd level arcane spell, nothing higher. That, and the +2d6 sneak attack should be easily done at Rogue 3/Wizard 3.

[DonDuckie]

I'm not hard set on acid splash, but it has SR: no, which is better against some. Wizard over minor magic for the infinite uses as well as all the utility of all cantrips and 1st level spells... I'm really starting to like this idea.

Doesn't creatures lose dex to AC against craetures with total concealment, and blindness treating all creatures as having total concealment, or is that something specific to invisible opponents?

EDIT: I was kinda baiting the fly joke... :D

[nedz]

Ah, that's much better than my thought: you could be a halfling without your "weapon" damage being reduced.

Then, yes, should be viable. Ray of Frost might be a better one to start with, though, if only because you'll probably eventually want Weapon Focus (something), and there are far more rays than there are orbs in PF.

Acid Splash: SR: No
Ray of Frost: SR: Yes

Ed: Ninja'd by the OP

[arkol]

Also if you carry around a flask of acid your acid splash deals +1 damage. YAY!

[jmelesky]

I'm not hard set on acid splash, but it has SR: no, which is better against some. Wizard over minor magic for the infinite uses as well as all the utility of all cantrips and 1st level spells... I'm really starting to like this idea.

Ah, conjuration. Good catch on the SR thing. You'll eventually want a backup for acid resistant opponents, but other than that, it sounds good.


Doesn't creatures lose dex to AC against craetures with total concealment, and blindness treating all creatures as having total concealment, or is that something specific to invisible opponents?

I don't see anything to that effect in the PRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Concealment), though you do get to use the concealment for Stealth, which means you don't need to waste any action on a Bluff to hide again.

And, of course, if you win the Stealth/Perception roll-off, you get Sneak Attack damage again.

Edit: Incidentally, i think Arcane Trickster would be a better path than Assassin for this build -- spells are hard to coat with poison, after all. Of course, i'm an Arcane Trickster fan, so i'll admit bias.

[arkol]

I think he meant this:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Blinded

[jmelesky]

I think he meant this:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Blinded

Sure, which mentions the total concealment, and the Perception penalty i pointed out earlier, but nothing about flat-footedness. And, as it turns out, total concealment doesn't make anyone flat-footed, either.

Edit: But it does mention loss of Dex bonus to AC. Which is enough for Sneak Attack. I stand corrected, again.

[DonDuckie]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/blind-fight-combat this, I it says you normally lose dex bonus to AC, which makes you a good target for sneak attack... I couldn't find the original rule, only this reference.

EDIT: but I know see, that I haven't made my case for being counted as an invisible opponent when fighting a blinded creature. I'll keep looking...

[arkol]

I guess I have to do this the hard way.


Blinded
The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.


The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

EDIT: rogued

[Moriato]

Here we go. For some ungodly reason it's listed under the Environment - Darkness section


A blinded creature loses its Dexterity modifier to AC (if positive) and takes a –2 penalty to AC.


Why it's there and not under the "Blinded" condition, I don't know.

Edit: Sneak attack ninja'd because I lost my dex bonus to typing due to darkness being blinded by the shadowy illumination.

[arkol]

Why it's there and not under the "Blinded" condition, I don't know.

But it IS!

[jmelesky]

But it IS!

Yes, you were right. I was looking specifically for flat-footedness, rather than Dex loss, so i missed it.

So, to DonDuckie's point, yes you can Sneak Attack the heck out of a blind guy. :smalltongue:

[arkol]

coughcoughglitterdustcoughcough

[jmelesky]

coughcoughglitterdustcoughcough

Color Spray's enough at 1st level, though you have to get in range to use it.

Pyrotechnics might be better than Glitterdust for this: you hit more targets, and they don't get the extra save each round. Possible friendly-fire situation, though.

[DonDuckie]

coughcoughglitterdustcoughcough

or just good old blindness, I know it is considered less powerful, and fairly so... but the duration:permanent is just MEAN.

[jmelesky]

or just good old blindness, I know is considered less powerful, and fairly so... bu the duration:permanent is just MEAN.

Fort save, too, instead of Will, which can be a very useful distinction.

[arkol]

Color spray = ilusion, lvl1, VERY short range, affects multiple targets

Blindness = necromancy, lvl2, long range, single target, permanent

Glitterdust = conjuration, lvl2, long range, multiple targets, target gets more saves as the spell goes on

Pyrotechnics = transmutation, lvl2, very long range, multiple targets (but very hard to pinpoint your real targets), harder to set off as you need to have a fire source first

IMO, the school, duration, range, level and easyness of casting give the prize to glitterdust.

Sure permanent is great, but if you're gonna sneak attack'em permanent or "a couple of rounds" is not that different. The extra saves suck, true, but if you have a good Int and spell focus most likely it doesn't matter.

If you're using stuff from 3.5, then Sculpt Spell kicks in and Glitterdust wins without margin for discussion.