How do you attack a god?

[ubergeek63]

Immune to poison, cold, acid, imprisonment,

SR67, FR37, AC73, 60 on all saves, 800HP ...

HOW DO YOU EFFECT IT LET ALONE DEFEAT IT????

[Hiro Protagonest]

ToB. Der. Time stands still, mountain tombstone strike, strike of perfect clarity, inferno blast, feral death blow, mountain hammer, elder mountain hammer, ancient mountain hammer, five-shadow creeping ice enervation strike, iron heart surge, you have plenty of options.

[comicshorse]

From my one experience of trying this : you attack it from behind, while its distracted.........then it kills you !

[Analytica]

A lot of people keep saying that lvl 20 wizards can kill gods without any trouble. I have no idea how that goes, and I suspect it relies on weird rules interpretations.

[NichG]

Mechanically:
Limited Wish to automatically hit on your next attack: AC is irrelevant.
SR? Don't use spells that grant SR. Same with saves. Use Earthquake for action denial, orb spells, etc if you must use magic, but honestly an ubercharger with a wizard friend using Limited Wish for the autohits is probably enough to take something like that down pretty quickly. Or heck, even an army aid-anothering a single epic warrior at firing arrows from a distance would be an interesting solution. Just hope it doesn't have the salient divine ability that kills mortals who get within a few miles of it automatically.

More interesting non-mechanical methods:

Attack the deity's source of belief. Distract the deity by having its realm invaded by lower-planar forces or by a rival god, or by having its proxy attacked simultaneously. Figure out a way to force it into Sigil and let the Lady of Pain deal with it. Summon a vast Far Realms entity into its home. All sorts of fun possibilities.

[mootoall]

No SR no save touch spells, metamagicked out the wazoo? Ubercharging? Not hard to deal a whole bunch of damage and hit something with a high AC ...

[Blue Bandit]

A lot of people keep saying that lvl 20 wizards can kill gods without any trouble. I have no idea how that goes, and I suspect it relies on weird rules interpretations.

No no no you've got it wrong. The lvl 20 wizards are the gods that the rest of us can't figure out how to kill.:smallbiggrin:

[myancey]

Wait..what level is the character you are playing? There are definite means of wiping out deities.

I could probably do it with a psion...nothing like empowered vigor with the overchannel feat.

[Telonius]

Immune to poison, cold, acid, imprisonment,

SR67, FR37, AC73, 60 on all saves, 800HP ...

HOW DO YOU EFFECT IT LET ALONE DEFEAT IT????

Make it look like the god's followers are a bunch of jerks, and/or start killing off the worshippers. Less worshippers = less powerful god.

[Toofey]

I'll give my old 2nd ed recipe, I think it'll be informative.
Dimensional anchor, Proof from teleportation (to keep out backup/gagtes), Walls to contain the fight as much as possible(and to keep out other supporters), 2 full groups so that they can tag in and out with a disproportionate number of Heavy Fighters (you can do a lot of things but generally speaking there's no immune to a +4/+5 swords) Then once it's down/on the ropes repeated disintegrations, the abjure the ashes and call it a day.

Also you absolutely need a number of representatives of greater gods on hand, both to make sure that you have enough healing and to make sure that you have divine magic that'll actually be able to effect the avatar. (if you can get them in to harm it a few times to wear down it's available spellcasting healing itself all the better, any way you slice it you're going to have to be ready to deal enough damage between it's chances to heal)

Also, never ever try to confront the gods on their home planes. Unless you're like ridiculously poewerful.


Edit: oh oh oh... all of the above shoudl come after a disjunction (or possibly a disjunction one/two so to speak)

[OracleofWuffing]

Well... There's usually diplomacy. :smalltongue:

[Knaight]

I'll give my old 2nd ed recipe, I think it'll be informative.
Dimensional anchor, Proof from teleportation, Walls to contain the fight as much as possible, 2 full groups so that they can tag in and out with a disproportionate number of Heavy Fighters (you can do a lot of things but generally speaking there's no immune to a +4/+5 swords) Then once it's down/on the ropes repeated disintegrations, the abjure the ashes and call it a day.

There are plenty of ways to never get hit by warrior types in 3rd edition, so this strategy won't work.

[Toofey]

There are plenty of ways to never get hit by warrior types in 3rd edition, so this strategy won't work.

even after a disjunction? (not meant to be a snappy retort)


My main PC for a long time (like 12 years) and his party killed off 2 major avatars, 1 actual god, and trapped another avatar in an iron flask. The above reflected how it worked with our dm, not that we ever actually used the same tricks twice, but those were some of the things my character would have advised. (and the character toofey was trained by that guy)

[AslanCross]

Don't forget Divine Ranks. Basically, that means if the target has Divine Ranks and you don't---there's not really much you can do no matter how powerful you are.

There's also the Salient Divine Abilities, which are pretty awesome.

[RaginChangeling]

even after a disjunction? (not meant to be a snappy retort)


My main PC for a long time (like 12 years) and his party killed off 2 major avatars, 1 actual god, and trapped another avatar in an iron flask. The above reflected how it worked with our dm, not that we ever actually used the same tricks twice, but those were some of the things my character would have advised. (and the character toofey was trained by that guy)

Yeah, most of those tactics won't work on gods anymore. Divine Ranks make them... difficult at best to kill without a similar blessing. I could probably build a character, or find a build, that could kill a character with the class levels most gods have (most of them have terrible builds), but Divine Ranks make it almost impossible to deal with them.

Especially if their spheres and portfolios involve magic, violence, or planning in any way. They then automatically know what you're up too and can probably just smash you like an ant.

[Hiro Protagonest]

ToB. Der. Time stands still, mountain tombstone strike, strike of perfect clarity, inferno blast, feral death blow, mountain hammer, elder mountain hammer, ancient mountain hammer, five-shadow creeping ice enervation strike, iron heart surge, you have plenty of options.

Reposting for stressing the point of this.

[RaginChangeling]

Reposting for stressing the point of this.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm

Take a look at the abilities Divine Ranks get, none of those are touching anything above a Demigod. Even then, it'll probably smack you around before laughing and leaving.

[AslanCross]

There's also Divine Spontaneous Casting. Your clericzilla has to prepare/pray for the spells he needs to become clericzilla. Deities of Div Rank 1 or higher can spontaneously convert ANY of their spells into ANY spell they can grant. If you're up against a deity that has Arcane Mastery as a Salient Divine Ability, you're basically up against the impossibly-prepared Schrödinger Wizard that has every spell he ever needs.

Meaning you're screwed in a way that is incomprehensible to mere PCs.

[Hiro Protagonest]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm

Take a look at the abilities Divine Ranks get, none of those are touching anything above a Demigod. Even then, it'll probably smack you around before laughing and leaving.

Inferno blast does reduced damage, but its not negated, and the mountain hammer line works.

[TOZ]

Get bigger numbers.

[RaginChangeling]

Inferno blast does reduced damage, but its not negated, and the mountain hammer line works.

They get maximum hit points and the ability to make any action as a free action with a relatively simple check. If they have any levels in a cleric class, or Arcane mastery, they can truss you up five ways to sunday before you get anywhere near close enough. Not to mention their ability to use Celerity and Greater Teleport at will, or their reality manipulation abilities, or their abilities to Persist buff spells or just Wish for whatever they want to be immune too.

Gods can only lose if they are played really horrendously, and even then you'd have to have some way of destroying the action economy. Plus if they're rank 10+ it'll be impossible to take them by surprise at all, which means they just kill you from two planes away. Or summon some Solars. Or Wish you to non-existence.

[NichG]

Anything played high-op can't really lose anyhow. Even though if gods could choose their SDA's every god should have Alter Reality and Arcane Mastery, not every god will have Alter Reality or Arcane Mastery.

If you look at deity stat blocks in Deities and Demigods, most of them are pretty underwhelming compared to the high-op stuff thrown around these boards. It's mostly the open-ended powers that get you, e.g. portfolio sense.

In other words, if you want to go deity-hunting, pick deities from a pantheon where arrogance is par for the course, so even if they see you coming they'll assume they can't possibly lose. The greek deities are a good bet for that.

[Doc Roc]

It's harder than you think. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872062/Killing_Gods--How_hard_is_it,_really?pg=1)

I'm so pleased this thread is still around. It's probably one of the better resources, in some senses, though it does in places rely on weird interpretations. First five pages are pretty slow, unfortunately, but you could probably start on page six... I'd still love to see the handbook get written, but it seems unlikely now. Not much call for it.

[AslanCross]

Anything played high-op can't really lose anyhow. Even though if gods could choose their SDA's every god should have Alter Reality and Arcane Mastery, not every god will have Alter Reality or Arcane Mastery.

If you look at deity stat blocks in Deities and Demigods, most of them are pretty underwhelming compared to the high-op stuff thrown around these boards. It's mostly the open-ended powers that get you, e.g. portfolio sense.

In other words, if you want to go deity-hunting, pick deities from a pantheon where arrogance is par for the course, so even if they see you coming they'll assume they can't possibly lose. The greek deities are a good bet for that.

Doing so will inevitably lead to a lensman arms race with the DM, and really, I don't know if that's a good place for anyone to go.

[Doc Roc]

Doing so will inevitably lead to a lensman arms race with the DM, and really, I don't know if that's a good place for anyone to go.

Unless you talk it over with the GM, and that's the point of the campaign.

[Fineous Orlon]

Immune to poison, cold, acid, imprisonment,

SR67, FR37, AC73, 60 on all saves, 800HP ...

HOW DO YOU EFFECT IT LET ALONE DEFEAT IT????

Get a sword made by Hattori Hanzo, specifically, the last one he made.


[in Japanese; subtitled] I am finished doing what I swore an oath to God 28 years ago to never do again. I've created, "something that kills people." And in that purpose, I was a success. I've done this because, philosophically, I am sympathetic to your aim. I can tell you with no ego, this is my finest sword. If on your journey, you should encounter God, God will be cut.

[RaginChangeling]

Unless you talk it over with the GM, and that's the point of the campaign.

If it is part of the campaign, you'll get a MacGuffin or help from another god or something. Otherwise it becomes an exercise in combing rulebooks and stops being a campaign anyone who didn't have an eidetic memory of D&D could really play in.

[AslanCross]

Unless you talk it over with the GM, and that's the point of the campaign.

Undoubtedly. I'm not sure if that's the case here, though.

[Eldariel]

Get bigger numbers.

Numbers don't help you. That's not how this game works. In epic, numbers begin to be rather trivial. Everyone can one-hit kill anything they can affect. It's the whole affecting-part that's tricky. And no, simple Disjunction isn't the solution; the spell is counterable in a variety of means and it cannot overcome epic magic. See the thread Doc linked, for a taste of hurdles to overcome. We can't forget that deities tend to be prescient making slaying them all the more difficult.

[TOZ]

Numbers don't help you.

Divine Rank is also a number. :smallwink:

[Doc Roc]

Divine Rank is also a number. :smallwink:

Rather hard one to raise though, outside of a small set of dubious tricks.

Here's our practice deity (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872062/Killing_Gods--How_hard_is_it,_really&post_num=109#338428782).

[Dvandemon]

Become one yourself (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Apotheosis_Chrysalis_(3.5e_Epic_Spell)) if you have the time

[Doc Roc]

Become one yourself (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Apotheosis_Chrysalis_(3.5e_Epic_Spell)) if you have the time

With a... homebrew... epic spell....?

[DeltaEmil]

Be a level 100 character in a full caster tier 1 class (bonus points if you're a cleric and use concepts like devotion to a cause instead towards a god). Most greater gods are only 60-80 hit dice creatures.

[Stallion]

Find a way to awaken/summon every single Elder Evil that won't directly conflict with each other (like Atropus and Ragnorra).

[Angry Bob]

Find a way to awaken/summon every single Elder Evil that won't directly conflict with each other (like Atropus and Ragnorra).

Better: Be an illithid savant, dig up an elder evil, and eat its anathemic secrecy.

[tyckspoon]

Off the top of my head, and just within the bounds of level 20 stuff, charging builds and Searing Spell deathorbs can splatter gods relatively easily. Or at least, they will break the universal deific defense suite they get just for having divine ranks. The challenge then becomes picking the appropriate god to kill- you don't want to mess with a god who has Epic Spellcasting or the magic-related SDAs, because they probably have permanent Greater Ironguard and Ray Deflection or similar effects, and may be able to spontaneously cast and free-action counterspell every Wizard spell ever, even the ones that aren't actually Wizard spells, because one of their SDAs lets them just make new Wizard spells up. Gods of battle, on the other hand, thematically get the wussy SDAs that aren't all that much better than Epic Feats, and can be taken out like the big beatstick monsters that they basically are.

[NichG]

Doing so will inevitably lead to a lensman arms race with the DM, and really, I don't know if that's a good place for anyone to go.

Hey, a low-op deity run as being full of arrogance and self-confidence can be a reasonable challenge to encounter in a low-epic game. There's no reason that going after a deity has to lead to an arms race if the DM is willing to go in the deicide direction. Its when you assume that everything is going to be high-op and played perfect that the arms race (has already ended).

If you consider the circumstances as opportunity for interesting plot or challenges, then there's no need for an arms race on either side. If the PCs are clever then they are victorious over the deity.

[AslanCross]

Hey, a low-op deity run as being full of arrogance and self-confidence can be a reasonable challenge to encounter in a low-epic game. There's no reason that going after a deity has to lead to an arms race if the DM is willing to go in the deicide direction. Its when you assume that everything is going to be high-op and played perfect that the arms race (has already ended).

If you consider the circumstances as opportunity for interesting plot or challenges, then there's no need for an arms race on either side. If the PCs are clever then they are victorious over the deity.

Again, point granted. However, given the OP's stats, those don't look like a run-of-the-mill Deity Rank 0. Those are more along the lines of Greater Deity numbers.

[Coidzor]

Well, you have to get it to leave its personal plane of existence and manage to keep it distracted long enough that its salient divine abilities can't eliminate you, and then you use a couple of Epic fullcasters.

Or pick a god without the salient divine abilities that'll ruin your day.

Or be in the Forgotten Realms, I think deities there don't have Salient Divine Abilities or something and thus you just have to make sure they're not on their own plane and beat them and then beat them again on their home plane.

[Doc Roc]

Well, you have to get it to leave its personal plane of existence and manage to keep it distracted long enough that its salient divine abilities can't eliminate you, and then you use a couple of Epic fullcasters.

Or pick a god without the salient divine abilities that'll ruin your day.

Or be in the Forgotten Realms, I think deities there don't have Salient Divine Abilities or something and thus you just have to make sure they're not on their own plane and beat them and then beat them again on their home plane.

It's really much harder than this, I am afraid.

[AslanCross]

Or be in the Forgotten Realms, I think deities there don't have Salient Divine Abilities or something and thus you just have to make sure they're not on their own plane and beat them and then beat them again on their home plane.

Nope, they do as well. That's why their entries in Faiths and Pantheons are so long.

Also, my bad on the numbers. It's reasonable that those belong to a Lesser deity, as even a Div Rank 7 (Eilistraee) has almost 900 HP.

[Flickerdart]

I don't see anything about gods that prevents jacking up your CL to the heavens and then Holy Wording them to death. Granted, this doesn't work against a bunch of things, and Epic spellcasting means instant win, but it's a start.

[Coidzor]

It's really much harder than this, I am afraid.

Well, I never said it was easy, just giving the simplified processes as I recalled them.

In Eberron, I believe the only thing that's really an incarnate god is the Silver Flame which you can try to corrupt or destroy, I guess, it doesn't seem to be a very active force, so you just need to be strong enough to kill its component parts once you've pulled 'em apart, which, well, if you're epic in Eberron you'd better be.

Birthright I think you just have to eat enough other descendants of deities in order to become one and then you can just kill one that way and take its place, I think that's what the setting is predicated upon...

Don't think Dark Sun has any deities and the closest things are technically killable except for that one guy in the Dark Mirror who is unkillable for whatever reason.

[Dvandemon]

With a... homebrew... epic spell....?

Is there a problem?

[Doc Roc]

Is there a problem?

Yes, in that there's no real room for either in a serious discussion about how to actually kill something. That spell's ridiculous, just genesis for fast time, and god up. It's like using game genie on mario paint.

[Toofey]

Yeah, most of those tactics won't work on gods anymore. Divine Ranks make them... difficult at best to kill without a similar blessing.
You know, I think that's why it was always important to have the support and representation from gods superior to the gods we were going after. Also I'll point out, almost all of ours were avatars, and the god proper we took out there were massive extenuating circumstances. (they were down to their own personal power and we were able to catch them unaware and used an artifact on them)

[Wings of Peace]

Yes, in that there's no real room for either in a serious discussion about how to actually kill something. That spell's ridiculous, just genesis for fast time, and god up. It's like using game genie on mario paint.

Epic spells make things boring. Besides, pre-epic has always been the silent standard for TO. If it needs to go epic it's not doing its job very well.

This was an old discussion on the WoTC 339 forums as well. Pre-epic the solution ended up abusing temporal paradoxes to sidestep possible Salient abilities if I am remembering right.

[ubergeek63]

Don't forget Divine Ranks. Basically, that means if the target has Divine Ranks and you don't---there's not really much you can do no matter how powerful you are.

There's also the Salient Divine Abilities, which are pretty awesome.

that's the problem divine rank 15 (Lolth), AC73, SR67, 50+ on all saves, immune to acid, lightning, cold, fire resistance 37, the list goes on...

orbs sound real nice until you realize you are talking about a sorcerer trying to hit AC45...

perhaps if a fighter could max out use magic item and cast orbs from it...

[Wings of Peace]

that's the problem divine rank 15 (Lolth), AC73, SR67, 50+ on all saves, immune to acid, lightning, cold, fire resistance 37, the list goes on...

orbs sound real nice until you realize you are talking about a sorcerer trying to hit AC45...

perhaps if a fighter could max out use magic item and cast orbs from it...

AC 45 isn't hard to hit as a touch attack. Even as a regular attack it's not that hard. Divine Power means a base of 20 and raising that number higher isn't hard (hell, if you want to be lazy and use proper metamagic mitigation you can get another +20 from True Strike as a Swift Action).

Most of the Salients aren't that bad either. The deity being able to cast makes things harder but if you're attacking a deity you should probably be employing Scry and Die style tactics anyways. What makes life hard primarily is their portfolio senses depending on the portfolio and death god's who can kill you at will with no save.

[OrganicGolem]

that's the problem divine rank 15 (Lolth), AC73, SR67, 50+ on all saves, immune to acid, lightning, cold, fire resistance 37, the list goes on...

orbs sound real nice until you realize you are talking about a sorcerer trying to hit AC45...

perhaps if a fighter could max out use magic item and cast orbs from it...

that's what a contingency true strike, or lesser wish is for... we may not be epic, but we're at least 20

[ubergeek63]

AC 45 isn't hard to hit as a touch attack. Even as a regular attack it's not that hard. Divine Power means a base of 20 and raising that number higher isn't hard (hell, if you want to be lazy and use proper metamagic mitigation you can get another +20 from True Strike as a Swift Action).

You missed the stats: AC45 IS the touch attack AC... normal AC is 73!

a LVL30 fighter would need to crit to hit! AC73-d20-15(epic weapon bonus)-4 (epic weapon focus)-4(strength)-30BAB=0

I had forgotten about true strike but it is a personal range spell and the fighters could not use it... so a wand pocket and UMD checks get the fighters to hit once a round at LVL30

OR a true arrow, bane energy bow (mage, elf, monsterous humanoid, outsider-evil, oustider-chaotic) with holy and axiomatic added would hit almost every round if wielded by a LVL30 fighter for 16D6...

[DeltaEmil]

I had forgotten about true strike but it is a personal range spell and the fighters could not use it... so a wand pocket and UMD checks get the fighters to hit once a round at LVL30Fighters are not worth any kind of consideration. Only full casters.

[ubergeek63]

Fighters are not worth any kind of consideration. Only full casters.

normally yes... but against a SR67 that rolls an instant 20 with over +50 on ALL saves, assuming they get past the SR?

[RaginChangeling]

normally yes... but against a SR67 that rolls an instant 20 with over +50 on ALL saves, assuming they get past the SR?

They can't reach the thing at all, especially if they encounter it on its ow plane. Non-magical characters really can't compete here, I doubt much less than a Planar Shepard and Incantatrix twinked out really can.

[ubergeek63]

They can't reach the thing at all, especially if they encounter it on its ow plane. Non-magical characters really can't compete here, I doubt much less than a Planar Shepard and Incantatrix twinked out really can.

well at least a +4 weapon can get past the DR50 ... so far the only thing i have come up with is a epic level weapon in the hands of an epic level fighter, to be able to actually touch it ... of course, i have not had the chance to read through the suggestions that i could not discount right off the bat.

[DeltaEmil]

normally yes... but against a SR67 that rolls an instant 20 with over +50 on ALL saves, assuming they get past the SR?Full casters don't use spells that allow saves or spell resistance in that case, which there are lots of options in the Player's Handbook alone. Fighters don't matter anymore. Only solars and balors, pit fiends or other monstrosities summoned or conjured to fight for the spellcasters.

[tyckspoon]

You missed the stats: AC45 IS the touch attack AC... normal AC is 73!


Touch attack (wraithstrike, martial maneuvers, weapon abilities.. so many ways to get this) + being Superior Invisible to strike against flatfooted (ymmv depending on specific god, but basic divine abilities do not include Uncanny Dodge or a means of detecting invisibility. True Seeing still works on it, unfortunately.) That should get your target number down to 35-40ish, which is quite achievable. If you're going to try and hit the god directly.. 20 BAB + 10 Strength +7 weapon + 2 Charge gives you 39 to hit before you roll, and without adding in any more obscure bonuses. If you don't natively have 20 BAB, go pay somebody to drop a Divine Power in a Ring of Spell Storing for you.

Edit: Lolth, specifically as given in Deities and Demigods, possesses both Alter Reality and the Arcane Mastery/Spontaneous Wizard Spells combo, which means you're screwed unless you can get your DM to give you some plot-mojo to suppress her (on the plus side, she only has 10 actual Wizard levels, and is theoretically limited to arcane effects appropriate to level 5 or lower spells.) But, hypothetically if that were not so, you'd end up wanting to make an approach like this:
Bob The Fighter is entrusted with the Lance of Lolth-Slaying (+5 Evil Outsider Bane, Chaotic Outsider Bane, Holy, Heart-seeking Valorous Lance) and the responsibility of using it to deliver a mortal blow to Lolth. He is assisted in this task by his friends Bob The Cleric and Bob The Wizard, who provide him and his trusty mount, Bob The Handle Animal'd Roc, at a minimum Superior Invisibility, Mind Blank, and Death Ward (Hand of Death operates as the Implosion spell. Which means even tho it has no save, it's still a [Death] effect. Hence Death Ward.) Assuming Bob does not get detected on approach (somewhat unlikely, because real-Lolth will have permanent True Sight) he will have to hit AC 36- Lolth's flatfooted Touch AC. Which is anything-but-a-1 territory for our intrepid Fighter, as outlined above- he's got full BAB, at least a 10 Strength modifier, +9 to hit with the weapon, +2 for charging, +2 for being visually undetectable to his target.. and he's probably got Weapon Focus and Melee Weapon Mastery for that lance, too.

So, tricky part becomes doing the necessary damage. Some kind of Pounce effect would be very handy here, but Bob The Fighter is not Bob The Fighter 19/Barbarian 1.. anyway. Bob is a mounted charger. He will make a Shock Trooper'd Spirited Charge with his Lance of Lolth Slaying. This will deal x4 damage, as per Spirited Lance Charge x3 + Valorous x2. Lolth has 820 HP as given, so for a single-strike kill Bob needs to deal 205 damage on his strike.. he's probably not going to, which is why Pounce would be reallllly handy here. But let's see how close he gets. Call it 3d6 base (Enlarge + Wield bigger weapon effect), already said 10 Strength mod so 15 for 2-handing, +9 effective on the weapon, 2-handed Power Attack sinking 20 for 30. Got an average of 64 multipliable damage.. well, Bob's a level 20 Fighter, so we can assume Weapon Spec/Melee Weapon Mastery for another 4. 68x4 = 272. Man, wouldn't Pounce be nice here.

[Doc Roc]

well at least a +4 weapon can get past the DR50 ... so far the only thing i have come up with is a epic level weapon in the hands of an epic level fighter, to be able to actually touch it ... of course, i have not had the chance to read through the suggestions that i could not discount right off the bat.

:: Sighs :: Jeepers.

You need at minimum:
Immunity to death, and I don't mean death effects. You need a way to reliably and consistently not be killed by dying. Without a silly intepretation.

A way to foil prescience, admittedly somewhat specific prescience.

A way to punch through immunity to damage.

A way to dodge very-large touchsight equivalents.

A way to get past some pretty sophisticated invisibility. Our only relief here is that most deities can't take insidious magic.

A way to punch through potentially infinite miracle chains.

And you need it non-epic, and with no DivRanks. For reasons other than what you might expect.


Oh, here's the kicker. Find them, and get to them, on a plane they control.
This is trivial in the same way that a crippling head wound is.



It does seem to be doable. Tip: Psionics is your friend.

[ubergeek63]

Full casters don't use spells that allow saves or spell resistance in that case, which there are lots of options in the Player's Handbook alone. Fighters don't matter anymore. Only solars and balors, pit fiends or other monstrosities summoned or conjured to fight for the spellcasters.

we have no full casters... just my warmage... ranged touch spells become pretty useless if you can't hit.

at LVL30 he should have BAB 15, +20 for true strike, +6 or more for dex and weapon feats gives +41 against AC45 for a reasonable chance of hitting with an orb.

[Doc Roc]

we have no full casters... just my warmage... ranged touch spells become pretty useless if you can't hit.

at LVL30 he should have BAB 15, +20 for true strike, +6 or more for dex and weapon feats gives +41 against AC45 for a reasonable chance of hitting with an orb.

Or you can just jam a ring of theurgy full of spells like surge of fortune. Forced natural twenty tends to resolve these issues. I don't even grok what you're arguing in favor of, honestly.

[ubergeek63]

A way to punch through potentially infinite miracle chains.

And you need it non-epic, and with no DivRanks. For reasons other than what you might expect.


Oh, here's the kicker. Find them, and get to them, on a plane they control.
This is trivial in the same way that a crippling head wound is.

It does seem to be doable. Tip: Psionics is your friend.

lol one other caveat: the GM does not allow invisibility or psionics :) This all revolves around playing a 1E super module in a 3E world!

getting to Lolth on her own plane is not a problem given that circumstance, defeating her with out the GM needing to dummy her down is!

[Doc Roc]

lol one other caveat: the GM does not allow invisibility or psionics :) This all revolves around playing a 1E super module in a 3E world!

getting to Lolth on her own plane is not a problem given that circumstance, defeating her with out the GM needing to dummy her down is!

Oh, it's lolth? Her SDAs are truly awful, and her DPT is very low. Does she have casting, I can't remember?

[RaginChangeling]

lol one other caveat: the GM does not allow invisibility or psionics :) This all revolves around playing a 1E super module in a 3E world!

getting to Lolth on her own plane is not a problem given that circumstance, defeating her with out the GM needing to dummy her down is!

Your DM doesn't allow invisibility, and wants you to take down Lolth without dumbing her down while your best caster is a Warmage.

...

Your best bet is figuring out what MacGuffin he's expecting you to pick up.

[Doc Roc]

Your DM doesn't allow invisibility, and wants you to take down Lolth without dumbing her down while your best caster is a Warmage.

...

Your best bet is figuring out what MacGuffin he's expecting you to pick up.

Or go Rainbow Warsnake. What's your build? Current level?

[ubergeek63]

Your DM doesn't allow invisibility, and wants you to take down Lolth without dumbing her down while your best caster is a Warmage.

...

Your best bet is figuring out what MacGuffin he's expecting you to pick up.

Well WarMage/Dracolexi actually. The ONLY caster if you do not count the fighter/cleric and the spellthief. It had occured to me that the spellthief might with luck steal some of her invulnerabilities, but i still do not see it being possible below LVL30.

if an epic spellthief could steal SR, and then my epic dracolexi chimes in with enhanced sun spells or something ... we are no where near that point now, but I already have permission to BE drac as opposed to just playing one (as per the book the drac adventures to find new draconian language magic)

[Coidzor]

Your DM doesn't allow invisibility, and wants you to take down Lolth without dumbing her down while your best caster is a Warmage.

...

Your best bet is figuring out what MacGuffin he's expecting you to pick up.

I dunno, it almost seems like he's trying to get them to try something like Parson put forth here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0038.html)... :smallconfused:

[Doc Roc]

Well WarMage/Dracolexi actually. The ONLY caster if you do not count the fighter/cleric and the spellthief. It had occured to me that the spellthief might with luck steal some of her invulnerabilities, but i still do not see it being possible below LVL30.

if an epic spellthief could steal SR, and then my epic dracolexi chimes in with enhanced sun spells or something ... we are no where near that point now, but I already have permission to BE drac as opposed to just playing one (as per the book the drac adventures to find new draconian language magic)

I am so confused now. What is your build, exactly?



I dunno, it almost seems like he's trying to get them to try something like Parson put forth here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0038.html)... :smallconfused:

Except in D&D, you get joyous ubercharging and auto-critting and insta-kills.

[D_Lord]

Get the True Leviathan, Ragnorra or the Elder Evil that was summoned to do Didenocide, Pandorym. Any one of this could do it, there is the whole problem of change or destroy the world but they can do it.

[Coidzor]

Except in D&D, you get joyous ubercharging and auto-critting and insta-kills.

:smallconfused: I meant the 5th and 6th paragraphs. I don't think any of those techniques actually work against deities.

I mean, I guess there's the possibility he wants them to find or create Pun-Pun, but that's a whole other can of worms.

[ubergeek63]

Or go Rainbow Warsnake. What's your build? Current level?

fighter 1 / warmage 9 / dracolexi 1

only WotC and only Greyhawk (as in no faerun and such) no psionics, breath weapons, invisibility, or rampant teleportation phase shift etc. (he likes story line)

I get to have a silver dragon as a distant relative and will be able to use her for knowledge and such but do not have the dragon template or the various adders for it. nobody but the GM knows about her yet. and being LG she might not be to happy if i take the "fell drain" feat

[Hiro Protagonest]

Here's how you attack a god: don't. Get other gods to ally with you, and have them kill the god.

[Doc Roc]

:smallconfused: I meant the 5th and 6th paragraphs. I don't think any of those techniques actually work against deities.

I mean, I guess there's the possibility he wants them to find or create Pun-Pun, but that's a whole other can of worms.

This is correct, they don't work without some very extensive tooling, but it's a whole lot more likely to work than an epic spellthief. The thread I linked has 20 pages of discussion on this matter.



fighter 1 / warmage 9 / dracolexi 1

only WotC and only Greyhawk (as in no faerun and such) no psionics, breath weapons, invisibility, or rampant teleportation phase shift etc. (he likes story line)

I get to have a silver dragon as a distant relative and will be able to use her for knowledge and such but do not have the dragon template or the various adders for it. nobody but the GM knows about her yet. and being LG she might not be to happy if i take the "fell drain" feat


You're basically toast, without some serious hacks.

[ubergeek63]

This is correct, they don't work without some very extensive tooling, but it's a whole lot more likely to work than an epic spellthief. The thread I linked has 20 pages of discussion on this matter.

You're basically toast, without some serious hacks.

I'll have to check them out... at LVL30 with true strike i would hit AC45 more often than not... if the spell thief could take out the resistance then i could beat her down with normal spells

[Doc Roc]

I'll have to check them out... at LVL30 with true strike i would hit AC45 more often than not... if the spell thief could take out the resistance then i could beat her down with normal spells

Are you going to 30?! Are you sure?

[ubergeek63]

Are you going to 30?! Are you sure?

I do not know for sure... all I know is that it seems to me to be the earliest a party can attack Lolth as written and have a fighting chance.

[tyckspoon]

I do not know for sure... all I know is that it seems to me to be the earliest a party can attack Lolth as written and have a fighting chance.

You can do it in the 17-20 range, if you're properly optimized for it, but your party clearly isn't and would have to be drastically rebuilt. So yeah, going Epic is probably going to be required for you. That said, you mentioned you're basically playing a 1E module/campaign arc, which means there are probably some pretty big mojo artifacts and/or NPCs that are meant to help you get the job done. Instead of worrying about what you may or may not do at level 30, I would focus on finding out what and/or who can help you and securing that aid first. After that, you can figure out what gaps you still have to cover with your own resources.

[Rickshaw]

anti-magic field? toss another god at them? choose your victim carefully? I recently tore Vecna to shreds with a bard/seeker of the song and an anti-magic field.

course, he's a little wussy. mostly magic items anyways. If you plan on going after someone like Pelor...good luck...


Edit: Oh, and I had the help of a ridiculous Tank with more HP than the god...thanks to some dirty homerules.

[ubergeek63]

You can do it in the 17-20 range, if you're properly optimized for it, but your party clearly isn't and would have to be drastically rebuilt. So yeah, going Epic is probably going to be required for you. That said, you mentioned you're basically playing a 1E module/campaign arc, which means there are probably some pretty big mojo artifacts and/or NPCs that are meant to help you get the job done. Instead of worrying about what you may or may not do at level 30, I would focus on finding out what and/or who can help you and securing that aid first. After that, you can figure out what gaps you still have to cover with your own resources.

Well we have been through the temple of elemental evil and are about to attack the slavers and hopefully get our items back. I am not sure but i think that puts us in 1E module A2 currently having been through T1-4. The GM is converting them as we go and massaging things as needed.

[Doc Roc]

anti-magic field? toss another god at them? choose your victim carefully? I recently tore Vecna to shreds with a bard/seeker of the song and an anti-magic field.

course, he's a little wussy. mostly magic items anyways. If you plan on going after someone like Pelor...good luck...


Edit: Oh, and I had the help of a ridiculous Tank with more HP than the god...thanks to some dirty homerules.

What. He has one of the strongest sets of SDAs in the game. I'm guessing you were using some other version of him.

[Daftendirekt]

Anybody who has read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy knows that the easiest way to defeat a god is to prove it exists.

[Chess435]

Where do you find the stats for these gods?

[Coidzor]

Where do you find the stats for these gods?

Faiths and Pantheons had a number of 'em, IIRC.

[NichG]

Keep in mind that in 1ed, Lolth had 66hp. There may be issues with directly porting this particular module to 3ed if your DM doesn't take that into account :smallsmile:

Basically, your big problems are Alter Reality and Arcane Mastery. Your saving grace is that most DMs don't run gods that often, so there's a high probability your DM won't realize what those two can do until it comes down to the face-to-face, or will not be willing to use them to their full potential because then its basically game over - that combo is about as close to being Pun-Pun as you can get without being Pun-Pun or using the epic spellcasting system since you can research any spell you can imagine at will instantly and then make it permanent.

So if your DM doesn't run what Doc Roc was calling 'true-Lolth' you're mostly just dealing with big numbers and can win via techniques that short-circuit numbers or let you catch up quite a bit. The main problem is, anything that lets a Lv12 party fight Lolth as written toe to toe is going to be DM-wrath invoking in a lower optimization game. So you might stockpile these tactics and pull them out only if its looking like a TPK otherwise.

- Ring of Nine Lives. You save, 1/day, no questions asked
- Death Pact. 'Well, thats my first death this fight...'
- Surge of Fortune. 'I _always_ roll a 20'
- Improvisation from a CL 20 Bard = +10 luck bonus to hit or save or whatever. Make the +'s count.
- Get a source of Limited Wish or Wish (to emulate Limited Wish... its stupid, but thats the way it goes per RAW) to auto-hit
- There are spells that automatically deny your enemy actions: Earthquake, Flash Flood (I think). Even better, they're not 'stunning' or whatever, they're just 'cannot act' or 'cannot attack'. But don't use them unless you need them to survive, since you'll probably only get one use before DM wrath kicks in.
- The post about Bob the Charger is very useful for coming up with ways to do obscene damage. There's some potential for DM wrath here.
- If you have a lot of levels ahead of you, you have tons of options and you could easily end up incorporating full casting somehow and then just use the regular tricks.
- If you absolutely want to make it a numbers match, abuse Shapechange and persisted cleric buffs. Look for 'Team Solars' to see where that route goes though. This will earn DM wrath, and might end up getting you to fight true-Lolth, so you probably don't want to do this.

Probably the best bet is, instead of building clever, be clever. Figure out Lolth's weaknesses in the setting (that is, what your DM sees as Lloth's weaknesses) and exploit those. Allying with other gods is reasonable but honestly it'd be unsatisfying to me as a player.

Heck, you might just get an army of 8000 archers to pepper her from the other side of an opened Gate or something. 8000 archers ~= 400 natural 20s a round. That'll do 800hp easy.

[ubergeek63]

Where do you find the stats for these gods?

Deities and Demigods

[Chess435]

I found what I was looking for!

[crazyhedgewizrd]

theres a devine spell, that allows you to cut off any devine caster from their god.

[ubergeek63]

theres a devine spell, that allows you to cut off any devine caster from their god.

that is interesting but does not help when the divine caster you are attacking is THE god!

someone said about time stop. if we are high enough level to cast it and it gets past alter reality that would give me potentially 10 rounds (dracolexi can double duration without spell level increase) to cast delayed touch attack spells with true strike against AC36 (AC73 - NAT 28 - DEX 9)

delayed searing orbs of fire get past spell resistance for a potential of 75d6 and if they could be maxed it would be 450HP ... that would be helpful...

[mootoall]

Oh, another idea, if you're really stuck on doing this-

By RAW, Spellcasting is an Ex ability. It's in the MMIII, I believe. Anyway, be a lvl 20 Human Factotum with a decent Cha, and use Cunning Brilliance to get Sorcerer spellcasting, Warblade Maneuvers, and Maneuvers Readied for a Warblade. Three different abilities (as called out by the text of Cunning Brilliance), one of which is definitely Ex, the other two of which are unlabeled. Break the Action economy, y'know, 'cause you're a factotum, and use Cunning Breach whenever you need to penetrate DR or SR. Have funsies!

[Knaight]

even after a disjunction? (not meant to be a snappy retort)

Avoiding a disjunction is child's play in 3.5, and disjunction hurts warrior types a lot more than casters.

[ubergeek63]

If you have a lot of levels ahead of you, you have tons of options and you could easily end up incorporating full casting somehow and then just use the regular tricks.
- If you absolutely want to make it a numbers match, abuse Shapechange and persisted cleric buffs. Look for 'Team Solars' to see where that route goes though. This will earn DM wrath, and might end up getting you to fight true-Lolth, so you probably don't want to do this.

Probably the best bet is, instead of building clever, be clever. Figure out Lolth's weaknesses in the setting (that is, what your DM sees as Lloth's weaknesses) and exploit those. Allying with other gods is reasonable but honestly it'd be unsatisfying to me as a player.

We do have some levels, but i think are looking to try and go with current approaches. Planar Shifter helps after the fact, but not so much before...

true strikes and buffs... I do not know if a shadow strike sword can get past the dex bonus or not-normally it would.

a sneak touch attack against a dazed opponent (AC36) with true strike to steal spell resistance (spell thief class ability at lvl15) and another to steal fire resistance... then the caster can effect her easily, especially if we keep her dazed (drow light sensativity - her one Achilles heel)

[nyjastul69]

Well we have been through the temple of elemental evil and are about to attack the slavers and hopefully get our items back. I am not sure but i think that puts us in 1E module A2 currently having been through T1-4. The GM is converting them as we go and massaging things as needed.

If you've lost your stuff you're likely at the start of A4. The arc you're likely going through is T1-4, A1-4 and GDQ1-7. It's a pretty cool story arc. I've used it several times myself. Is your GM aware of enworld.org? They probably have conversions for the 3 super modules it seems you're going through.

On the thought of attacking Gods, don't.

[NichG]

that is interesting but does not help when the divine caster you are attacking is THE god!

someone said about time stop. if we are high enough level to cast it and it gets past alter reality that would give me potentially 10 rounds (dracolexi can double duration without spell level increase) to cast delayed touch attack spells with true strike against AC36 (AC73 - NAT 28 - DEX 9)

delayed searing orbs of fire get past spell resistance for a potential of 75d6 and if they could be maxed it would be 450HP ... that would be helpful...

The problem with this is that timestop states that other creatures are untargetable from within the timestop, rather than just undamageable. I think that when you use Delay Spell you have to pick the target at the time of casting. As such you can't actually do delayed touch attack spells from within a timestop.

[Runestar]

Only 800hp and AC73? I think there are epic monsters tougher than that...:smallannoyed:

[Alleran]

Only 800hp and AC73? I think there are epic monsters tougher than that...:smallannoyed:
Epic monsters don't necessarily have "divine abilities" though.

[ubergeek63]

The problem with this is that timestop states that other creatures are untargetable from within the timestop, rather than just undamageable. I think that when you use Delay Spell you have to pick the target at the time of casting. As such you can't actually do delayed touch attack spells from within a timestop.

that is an interesting thought.. there is actually an out there though: spells that have a duration longer than the time stop still effect creatures after the time stop is ended and since all *effects* of the delayed spell occur after the time stop ends it becomes a gray area.

now if you say that the caster does not know how long the time stop will last and therefore be taking a very expensive risk since delay spell is 1-5 rounds and time stop is d4+1 rounds.

now we come to the biggest trick in my bag character's (once he gets to that level) bag of tricks: *being* a dracolexi instead of just playing a dracolexi. Dracolexi is an *acedemic* who needs treasure but treasures knowledge: he adventures to get more draconian knowledge (magic).

dracolexi metamagic increases neither casting time or spell level. A maximized time stop locks it into 6 rounds, quickened true strike and delayed orbs all go off as soon as the time stop ends having eliminated dex bonus, natural armor bonus, spell resistance, and saving throws. I could get off 5 maxed orbs. it would mostly burn me out but knock her down below half.

non epic energy bows could do over 12d6 a hit with a lot of banes on them (outsider evil, outsider chaotic, elf, monstrous humanoid, mage), and if we keep her blinded it will eliminate her +9 dex bonus at least

[NichG]

that is an interesting thought.. there is actually an out there though: spells that have a duration longer than the time stop still effect creatures after the time stop is ended and since all *effects* of the delayed spell occur after the time stop ends it becomes a gray area.




While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends.

Only 'a spell that affects an area' can have normal effects once the time stop ends unfortunately. You need to delay area-of-effect no-SR spells.

[ubergeek63]

Only 'a spell that affects an area' can have normal effects once the time stop ends unfortunately. You need to delay area-of-effect no-SR spells.

I just do not know... I agree that instantaneous effects can not effect those outside the time stop, but I still think it is a gray area since the description was written SRD: before the advent of the delay spell metamagic feat.

in other words I agree that you can not effect those whose time is stopped, but that by the spell's own description effects that occur after the time stop has ended effect those around.

Even the description of the delay spell feat says that while the attack spell targeting takes place immediately, the results including damage and saving throws occur at the conclusion of the delay.

Therefore if the damage occurs after the end of the time stop, it should take effect since that is effectively when the spell goes off. Even to the extent that IF detected, can be dispelled with ease.

[NichG]

I just do not know... I agree that instantaneous effects can not effect those outside the time stop, but I still think it is a gray area since the description was written SRD: before the advent of the delay spell metamagic feat.

Well, 'no targetting' is what the spell (Time Stop) says. If you want to argue that it makes sense that it should work, then that becomes a matter of how Delay Spell actually functions. Does it create something akin to a contingent spell upon the target, that then triggers? If so, then you're producing an effect on someone outside the time stop and so it should fail. Does it create a spell locus that then fires off the spell at a later time? Then it might work.

However also notice that Delay Spell only allows you to delay spells with the Personal, Area, or Touch ranges (but not Ranged Touch). This suggests that to me that the delayed spell is incapable 'aiming' at a target on its own, and so is essentially a spell effect placed upon a place or person that later triggers. That interpretation also requires an effect to be placed upon a target outside of the timestop and so would not function under the original (argued) intent of the spell.

[Count D20]

Well, you have to get it to leave its personal plane of existence and manage to keep it distracted long enough that its salient divine abilities can't eliminate you, and then you use a couple of Epic fullcasters.

Or pick a god without the salient divine abilities that'll ruin your day.

Or be in the Forgotten Realms, I think deities there don't have Salient Divine Abilities or something and thus you just have to make sure they're not on their own plane and beat them and then beat them again on their home plane.
If you could find a time travel spell/item, you could go back to the time of troubles and fight when lolth lost her powers.
Of course, that would create hundreds of paradoxes and turn the universe and your dm's brain insideout.

[Eldariel]

If you could find a time travel spell/item, you could go back to the time of troubles and fight when lolth lost her powers.
Of course, that would create hundreds of paradoxes and turn the universe and your dm's brain insideout.

Did you know that Wizards did actually, in their infinite wisdom, print such a spell? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b)

[TroubleBrewing]

.... :smallconfused:

......... :smallannoyed:

............:smallmad:

..................:smallfrown:

......................:smalleek:

Oh, wizards. Such "wisdom".

[Doc Roc]

Did you know that Wizards did actually, in their infinite wisdom, print such a spell? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b)

Don't worry, Grey. It gets worse. (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a)

[TroubleBrewing]

I wasn't worried, per se. It always gets worse.

Always.

Sometimes, it just hurts to be reminded of it. It's like kicking a puppy while it's already looking up at you with those sad, sad eyes.. What's that, Not-enough-shadow-caster-powers-part-of-the-ToM? You want another kick? Here, have a TRUENAMER TO THE GUT.

[pyroman]

Use an artifact or find some way to become a god yourself. Or kill all their believers to weaken them (at the level you would attack a god from, this could be a possibility).

[Doc Roc]

I wasn't worried, per se. It always gets worse.

Always.

Sometimes, it just hurts to be reminded of it. It's like kicking a puppy while it's already looking up at you with those sad, sad eyes.. What's that, Not-enough-shadow-caster-powers-part-of-the-ToM? You want another kick? Here, have a TRUENAMER TO THE GUT.

No boom today. Boom tomorrow.

[Alleran]

Did you know that Wizards did actually, in their infinite wisdom, print such a spell? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b)
Dragonlance also has the Timereaver spell. And Great Wyrm Time Dragons (Dragon #359) can go into the past as an Extraordinary ability, or even into possible futures.

Thankfully, the linked spell is FR-specific. And in FR, the goddess of magic also regulates the flow of time (though she doesn't officially have the Time portfolio, off the top of my head) so that you can't cause a paradox. She'll step in and stop you from going back if it becomes necessary. I don't even know if it's possible to time travel back into the Time of Troubles. Ao was dropping all sorts of nasty restrictions (planar travel, time travel, and so on), and Mystra being cast down (leaving the Weave to run wild) basically wrecked magic, so odds are good that it wouldn't work.

Though that doesn't help if you just port it over to another setting directly, but were I setting up a homebrew setting (or using a different setting, for that matter) and importing time travel, I would almost as a matter of course bring in a deity to regulate time and ensure that there aren't any paradox issues. Either that, or introduce the Doctor Who concept of "fixed points" in time that can't be changed to keep it from getting out of control.

Of course, after Mystra died in FR all bets were off, too. It's now quite possible to start in the post-Sellplague FR and go back to change things. No deity has control of time in that era, so there's no way of stopping you short of a DM making some hefty changes to the lore and mechanics of the setting.

[ubergeek63]

Well, 'no targetting' is what the spell (Time Stop) says. If you want to argue that it makes sense that it should work, then that becomes a matter of how Delay Spell actually functions. Does it create something akin to a contingent spell upon the target, that then triggers? If so, then you're producing an effect on someone outside the time stop and so it should fail. Does it create a spell locus that then fires off the spell at a later time? Then it might work.
That is exactly what the description says it does on dandwiki:

"It is not technically invisible; it simply exists as a magic aura of the same shape of the spell effect until it takes effect. The delayed spell can be noticed with a DC40 Spot check"

However also notice that Delay Spell only allows you to delay spells with the Personal, Area, or Touch ranges (but not Ranged Touch). This suggests that to me that the delayed spell is incapable 'aiming' at a target on its own, and so is essentially a spell effect placed upon a place or person that later triggers. That interpretation also requires an effect to be placed upon a target outside of the timestop and so would not function under the original (argued) intent of the spell.
actually there is no "intent" to the spell, what is listed is "typically used for". that is d&d and is occasionally the bane of the GM: the player's creativity. You are in effect saying that "ranged touch" should not have the same armor reduction benefit as "touch" does.

Be that as it may, a force substituted delayed blast fireball maxed out would work as well.

[Leon]

Immune to poison, cold, acid, imprisonment,

SR67, FR37, AC73, 60 on all saves, 800HP ...

HOW DO YOU EFFECT IT LET ALONE DEFEAT IT????

Absolute Faith (or lack of)

[NichG]

That is exactly what the description says it does on dandwiki:

"It is not technically invisible; it simply exists as a magic aura of the same shape of the spell effect until it takes effect. The delayed spell can be noticed with a DC40 Spot check"
actually there is no "intent" to the spell, what is listed is "typically used for". that is d&d and is occasionally the bane of the GM: the player's creativity. You are in effect saying that "ranged touch" should not have the same armor reduction benefit as "touch" does.

Be that as it may, a force substituted delayed blast fireball maxed out would work as well.

The danddwiki thing isn't actually from the books anywhere as far as I can tell. The thing is, I can either tell you what RAW says, in which case Delay Spell coming out later does not change the text of timestop and you can't do any of this, or I can tell you what I think a reasonable GM would do or allow, in which case intent is a factor. I'm not saying that "Ranged Touch" shouldn't have an armor reduction benefit at all - I'm saying that "Ranged Touch" is not a listed range that Delay Spell is allowed to delay.

Delayed Blast Fireball unfortunately allows SR I believe. On the other hand, you could use Hail of Stones metamagicked out the wazoo. It's only 5d4 damage but its no save, no SR, and its an AoE. You could hit that with Delay, Empower, Maximize, Repeat, and Twin (depending how your DM runs Empower+Maximize). That means that per casting (of which you try to have 5 from the timestop) you 120 damage (over two rounds). So thats about 600 irresistable damage right there. So if you can survive for 4 rounds or so, you can win.

[ubergeek63]

The danddwiki thing isn't actually from the books anywhere as far as I can tell. The thing is, I can either tell you what RAW says, in which case Delay Spell coming out later does not change the text of timestop and you can't do any of this, or I can tell you what I think a reasonable GM would do or allow, in which case intent is a factor. I'm not saying that "Ranged Touch" shouldn't have an armor reduction benefit at all - I'm saying that "Ranged Touch" is not a listed range that Delay Spell is allowed to delay.

Delayed Blast Fireball unfortunately allows SR I believe. On the other hand, you could use Hail of Stones metamagicked out the wazoo. It's only 5d4 damage but its no save, no SR, and its an AoE. You could hit that with Delay, Empower, Maximize, Repeat, and Twin (depending how your DM runs Empower+Maximize). That means that per casting (of which you try to have 5 from the timestop) you 120 damage (over two rounds). So thats about 600 irresistable damage right there. So if you can survive for 4 rounds or so, you can win.

still not sure what RAW and AoE actually stand for ... cant do that since you are talking about +15 spell levels. Now depending on what i can get for dracalexi i might be able to make it work...

was looking elsewhere and found vitriolic sphere is 15D4 no save and no SR at 5th lvl ... the best to be had is energy substitution and delay... for 8th lvl ... no where near enough...

[TroubleBrewing]

still not sure what RAW and AoE actually stand for ... cant do that since you are talking about +15 spell levels.

RAW: Rules as written.

AoE: Area of Effect.

+15 Spell level "issue": Metamagic reducers. Incantatrix levels, various metamagic feats that reduce the level of a spell, etc.

[Doc Roc]

Spell Dancer + Ocular Spell. Preload your face like a magical shotgun.

[TroubleBrewing]

Preload your face like a magical shotgun.

Awesome. This is just... Awesome.

[druid91]

Two bullets to the head and neck.

It's a god, it'll take more than one shot.:smallwink:

[TroubleBrewing]

Nah, it's a god with 800hp. Two of the aforementioned metamagicked-to-hell Hail of Stones could handle it.

[ubergeek63]

RAW: Rules as written.

AoE: Area of Effect.

+15 Spell level "issue": Metamagic reducers. Incantatrix levels, various metamagic feats that reduce the level of a spell, etc.

makes sense... metemagic reducers? I know of the rods but the can only effect the spell once. and feats that reduce the spell level?

vitriolic sphere at 5th level does 15d4 with no resistance and no save acid damage... change it to force, max from dracolexi, repeat spell from a rod, and delay it, combined with the same thing on quickened hail of stones... is 760HP in 2 rounds, no SR and no save

[TroubleBrewing]

makes sense... metemagic reducers? I know of the rods but the can only effect the spell once. and feats that reduce the spell level?

Check out the Incantatrix class from the Players Guide to Faerun. The class is built around the idea of making metamagic effects easier and cheaper to pull off.

Combine it with some Kobold Sorcerer tricks and you're golden.

[ubergeek63]

Check out the Incantatrix class from the Players Guide to Faerun. The class is built around the idea of making metamagic effects easier and cheaper to pull off.

Combine it with some Kobold Sorcerer tricks and you're golden.

Accept we are playing GreyHawk and are not allowed other realm stuff in this campaign

[TroubleBrewing]

*Shrug*

Eh. Might wanna include that info in the original post, then.

[NichG]

Well if you're going to epic, you can take Automatic Quicken I, which will quicken you Hail of Stones for free since its a 1st level spell. There's also an epic feat Improved Metamagic which makes metamagic cheaper by 1 (to a minimum of +1), and if you take Arcane Thesis (PHB 2) in it you can make metamagic for a single spell (e.g. Hail of Stones) cheaper by 1 as well.

So using the conservative ordering you could do a Quickened (free), Delayed (+3 -> +1), Empowered (+2 -> +1), Maximized (+3 -> +1), Repeat (+3? -> +1), Twinned (+3? -> +1) Hail of Stones as a 6th level spell, maybe 7th level if I screwed up the metamagic modifiers somewhere.

[Eldariel]

Dweomerkeeper (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a) is a non-setting specific metamagic reducing any casting advancing cheating superclass. Notably, Supernatural Spell isn't subject to spell resistance (or anything else) so you can Supernatural Spell pretty much anything and have it be undispellable, undetectable, uncounterable and un-everythingelseable. And then you get the Incantatrix capstone by a different name to reduce all metamagic costs by 1, and some spontaneous casting and stuff (the class is obscenely broken). All you need is something to qualify with both castings; traditional routes include Alternate Source Spell, Magical Training, Southern Magician and few others. Even just cantrips of the other type suffice. So yeah, stack Cloak of Mysteries with rampant application of Practical Metamagic, Easy Metamagic, Arcane Thesis and company and we can get all metamagic to +0. Then we just need bonus feats.

[classy one]

Even without it's followers and champions, a god can just make an Aelix of you (BoED) you is you but with more SLA more HD and immune to all effects and damage originating from anyone who is not you. So only you can kill it. I'd imagine the exchange to be something like this:

God: I see you are well optimized to kill me, I must thank you.

You: thank me for what?

God: for saving me the trouble of picking all those equipment and feats! (an exact duplicate of you appears and attacks you with your own weapon and combo)

I see this kind of thread all the time and with the NBA playoffs going on now got to thinking: let's put this to the test.

A group of lvl 20 adventures take on a divine rank 6 god. Whoever loses gains some powerup and best out of 7 in PbP. If Epic stuff is allowed (not sure yet) then it makes sense that the god get them too.
Maybe each lose the mortals suffer they get 1000k gp and five extra levels while the god gets one plus divine rank? Any takers?

[Eldariel]

Even without it's followers and champions, a god can just make an Aelix of you (BoED) you is you but with more SLA more HD and immune to all effects and damage originating from anyone who is not you. So only you can kill it. I'd imagine the exchange to be something like this:

God: I see you are well optimized to kill me, I must thank you.

You: thank me for what?

God: for saving me the trouble of picking all those equipment and feats! (an exact duplicate of you appears and attacks you with your own weapon and combo)

I see this kind of thread all the time and with the NBA playoffs going on now got to thinking: let's put this to the test.

A group of lvl 20 adventures take on a divine rank 6 god. Whoever loses gains some powerup and best out of 7 in PbP. If Epic stuff is allowed (not sure yet) then it makes sense that the god get them too.
Maybe each lose the mortals suffer they get 1000k gp and five extra levels while the god gets one plus divine rank? Any takers?

Do you have any inkling of what scale of an endeavor this is? We're 20+ of work preparing every single character for a one-shot. I mean, I wish everyone willing to undertake this all the best but the sheer amount of work this takes...

[NichG]

Of course if you manage to defeat the Aleax, you get a permanent wisdom buff that stacks with everything. I can see some cagey person exploiting this and becoming a supremely powerful entity via a lifetime career of literal god-bothering.

After all, the Aleax can't be harmed by other people, but its ability says nothing about protecting it from environmental damage. If a natural rockslide hits it, it will take damage, and if you know its coming you can prepare defenses that it, as invader, won't be able to duplicate.

Heck, in a Tippy-verse style setting I can even imagine god-wizards having a few actual gods chained up just for this purpose.

[classy one]

Of course if you manage to defeat the Aleax, you get a permanent wisdom buff that stacks with everything. I can see some cagey person exploiting this and becoming a supremely powerful entity via a lifetime career of literal god-bothering.

After all, the Aleax can't be harmed by other people, but its ability says nothing about protecting it from environmental damage. If a natural rockslide hits it, it will take damage, and if you know its coming you can prepare defenses that it, as invader, won't be able to duplicate.

Heck, in a Tippy-verse style setting I can even imagine god-wizards having a few actual gods chained up just for this purpose.

It explicitly states that only one Aleax can be send against a mortal by that god. So once you defeat that Aleax sent by Hades, Hades can't send another one after you. His brother Zues can though. So you can't farm them.

Also, they would be immune to the trap damage if it was explicitly set up for them by anyone other than you. I don't know what you mean by damage he can't duplicate, he is basically you. Just slightly better. I suppose you could give yourself a fatal weakness that no one knows about and exploit it when the Aleax comes for you but it would be silly to think that a god would be overlook it.

[classy one]

Do you have any inkling of what scale of an endeavor this is? We're 20+ of work preparing every single character for a one-shot. I mean, I wish everyone willing to undertake this all the best but the sheer amount of work this takes...

The worst part is that the god will kill them in one action with Life or Death SDA (no save). All that work for nothing.

The only way I can see you killing a god is in the center of the Outlands where all magic is nullified. Here an uber charger or hurler can really do what it was meant to do against gods. It does really cheapen the whole endeavor though.

[Eldariel]

The worst part is that the god will kill them in one action with Life or Death SDA (no save). All that work for nothing.

I don't recall Death Deity being ever specified, though.

[Incanur]

Reasonably, defeating any D&D deity with the Alter Reality salient divine ability requires help from the DM through an appropriate plot. Any god or goddess that uses that ability competently would simply crush PCs without it.

[classy one]

I don't recall Death Deity being ever specified, though.

It wasnt but pointed out to show just how futile going up against a god is. Any of them with alter reality will have every buff on them permanently(including AMF), divine splendor and life or death don't allow a save, you just die. If they have mass death then your party, all your friends and family all dies, again no save.

If death is one of their domains then they don't even need to use a standard action to do this since they are given a number of free actions each round for actions related to their domain.

Basically one SDA negates all your optimizing. PC need to optimize because they need to make the most out of limited resources, gods' resources are close to unlimited, or at the very least they have SDA that make most of what mortals do seem like a joke.

[Doc Roc]

Reasonably, defeating any D&D deity with the Alter Reality salient divine ability requires help from the DM through an appropriate plot. Any god or goddess that uses that ability competently would simply crush PCs without it.

A common belief, but false.

[NichG]

It explicitly states that only one Aleax can be send against a mortal by that god. So once you defeat that Aleax sent by Hades, Hades can't send another one after you. His brother Zues can though. So you can't farm them.

Also, they would be immune to the trap damage if it was explicitly set up for them by anyone other than you. I don't know what you mean by damage he can't duplicate, he is basically you. Just slightly better. I suppose you could give yourself a fatal weakness that no one knows about and exploit it when the Aleax comes for you but it would be silly to think that a god would be overlook it.

The weakness is that if you know he's coming, you can position yourself in a place where you control the environment. He is you as far as abilities, but he's not you as far as where he's standing. Something as simple as personally setting a bunch of traps that you know you wouldn't be able to bypass and waiting behind them would be enough to give you an edge. For a bigger edge, stockpile gear before you bother the god, so that you have better stuff than he does when he finally comes. Plus, there's the meta-edge that generally you know how to run your own character better than anyone else.

[Eldariel]

It wasnt but pointed out to show just how futile going up against a god is. Any of them with alter reality will have every buff on them permanently(including AMF), divine splendor and life or death don't allow a save, you just die. If they have mass death then your party, all your friends and family all dies, again no save.

If death is one of their domains then they don't even need to use a standard action to do this since they are given a number of free actions each round for actions related to their domain.

Basically one SDA negates all your optimizing. PC need to optimize because they need to make the most out of limited resources, gods' resources are close to unlimited, or at the very least they have SDA that make most of what mortals do seem like a joke.

Naa, there's a ton of ****ty SDAs. Only few of them are actually threatening. Few are mostly unbeatable except through some weird time shenanigans or divine ascension of your own but there's some deities you could probably stand up to before epic. However, all this has been stated already, with a threadworth of linked discussion so this post is just a broken record, as are all the related posts. Mostly, these are reposts from page 2 or so; I don't see why people bother.

[Starbuck_II]

It wasnt but pointed out to show just how futile going up against a god is. Any of them with alter reality will have every buff on them permanently(including AMF), divine splendor and life or death don't allow a save, you just die. If they have mass death then your party, all your friends and family all dies, again no save.

If death is one of their domains then they don't even need to use a standard action to do this since they are given a number of free actions each round for actions related to their domain.

Basically one SDA negates all your optimizing. PC need to optimize because they need to make the most out of limited resources, gods' resources are close to unlimited, or at the very least they have SDA that make most of what mortals do seem like a joke.

Buff all he wants, only Death Diety can kill you. no save, you have a chance otherwise. Or Be GSA who are immortal.

[Incanur]

A common belief, but false.

How so? In an optimized D&D world, even Pun-Pun can't challenge the gods because they've already been there, done that. Outside of TO and RAW silliness, Alter Reality still gives ridiculous options only epic magic has a chance of trumping.

[Doc Roc]

How so? In an optimized D&D world, even Pun-Pun can't challenge the gods because they've already been there, done that. Outside of TO and RAW silliness, Alter Reality still gives ridiculous options only epic magic has a chance of trumping.

There's a 27 page thread about this. Suggest you take a look.

[NichG]

How so? In an optimized D&D world, even Pun-Pun can't challenge the gods because they've already been there, done that. Outside of TO and RAW silliness, Alter Reality still gives ridiculous options only epic magic has a chance of trumping.

I think the point is that Alter Reality on its own isn't that much more impressive than someone who has used Nightsticks or other cheese to Persist every spell in the game every day. And that particular power level is high, but finite. If you can beat one member of Team Solars you can beat that. It's a nightmare, but its exactly no worse than things you can do with high op-fu anyhow.

When you add Arcane Mastery, then you start having 'I permanently have any effect I can think of' on me issues, but even then it's limited to whatever would be legitimate for a 9th level or lower spell (which depends a lot on the DM).

[Incanur]

I think the point is that Alter Reality on its own isn't that much more impressive than someone who has used Nightsticks or other cheese to Persist every spell in the game every day. And that particular power level is high, but finite.

RAW, Alter Reality allows you duplicate time stop and simulacrum an arbitrary number of times. That means as many half HD copies as you want for the price of a single standard action - not to mention whatever other shenanigans you feel like pulling while acting freely in a frozen world. That's obviously not the intent of the SDA, but the same goes for any high-op nonsense.

Additionally, as a SDA, spells duplicated by Alter Reality ignore SR, function in an antimagic field, and arguably can't be dispelled (there's not even any caster level specified, which creates various problems). Then there's the open-ended ridiculousness of free wishes, a spell that in the FR canon allows you to annihilate armies and permanently transform the landscape in one fell swoop.

[Siosilvar]

RAW, Alter Reality allows you duplicate time stop and simulacrum an arbitrary number of times. That means as many half HD copies as you want for the price of a single standard action - not to mention whatever other shenanigans you feel like pulling while acting freely in a frozen world. That's obviously not the intent of the SDA, but the same goes for any high-op nonsense.

This is why there is always enough Solars to chain-gate.

[Aharon]

@Doc Roc
Could you perhaps point out a specific page in the 27-page thread? I don't want to reread it all. I don't really doubt it, but having basically every beneficial spell ever printed as a permanent buff seems pretty powerful.

[Alleran]

It explicitly states that only one Aleax can be send against a mortal by that god. So once you defeat that Aleax sent by Hades, Hades can't send another one after you. His brother Zues can though. So you can't farm them.
AFB, but wasn't it that defeating the Aleax means you can avoid punishment just for the specific transgression that got it sent after you in the first place? Not all transgressions forever.


a spell that in the FR canon allows you to annihilate armies and permanently transform the landscape in one fell swoop.
The Killing Storm was never statted out in 3.0/3.5, so it's irrelevant.

Apocalypse from the Sky is BoVD, and non-setting specific.

[NichG]

RAW, Alter Reality allows you duplicate time stop and simulacrum an arbitrary number of times. That means as many half HD copies as you want for the price of a single standard action - not to mention whatever other shenanigans you feel like pulling while acting freely in a frozen world. That's obviously not the intent of the SDA, but the same goes for any high-op nonsense.

Additionally, as a SDA, spells duplicated by Alter Reality ignore SR, function in an antimagic field, and arguably can't be dispelled (there's not even any caster level specified, which creates various problems). Then there's the open-ended ridiculousness of free wishes, a spell that in the FR canon allows you to annihilate armies and permanently transform the landscape in one fell swoop.

So out of all of these, the Simulacrum thing is the only real difficulty I can see. Cheater of Mystra hijinks can let a PC not care about antimagic fields (or Invoke Magic for a lower-op method). SR is harder to get than to beat, so PCs looking to take down gods shouldn't rely on it. And in (very) high-op nonsense, even a level 1 character can get infinite free wishes, though this starts down Pun-Pun's ladder issues.

I don't really have a good answer to the *snap* twenty thousand (or however many) Simulacra trick though. At that level of optimization, you're looking to respond with infinite action Psion cheese I guess.

[Incanur]

And in (very) high-op nonsense, even a level 1 character can get infinite free wishes, though this starts down Pun-Pun's ladder issues.

Indeed. With such tricks allowed, the deity always win simply because they existed before the PCs.


I don't really have a good answer to the *snap* twenty thousand (or however many) Simulacra trick though. At that level of optimization, you're looking to respond with infinite action Psion cheese I guess.

It's hard to beat the indefinite time stop. *Snap* every lingering area debuff and damage spell ever published plus dimensional lock plus forcecage plus prismatic sphere (etc) could also pose a threat.

[Doc Roc]

Indeed. With such tricks allowed, the deity always win simply because they existed before the PCs.



It's hard to beat the indefinite time stop. *Snap* every lingering area debuff and damage spell ever published plus dimensional lock plus forcecage plus prismatic sphere (etc) could also pose a threat.

Yes, it's a question of undetectable intent with an offense that cannot be defended against, and a delivery mechanism that cannot be blocked. All of these things are doable.

[Sinfonian]

Need a large amount of damage to kill something otherwise troublesome to deal with? I'll just leave this here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2013195&postcount=89)...
Also results in a similar amount of damage being taken by the player from a DMG to the head.

[Incanur]

Yes, it's a question of undetectable intent with an offense that cannot be defended against, and a delivery mechanism that cannot be blocked. All of these things are doable.

Really, mind blank alone makes combat between optimized high-level characters akin to a blindfolded duel where the belligerents start out leagues apart. Nobody can find anybody else through the game mechanics.

[Thurbane]

As per the recent Q&A thread, a Sphere of Annihilation should do the job, if you can somehow bring it into contact with the god without him being aware beforehand.

[Doc Roc]

Really, mind blank alone makes combat between optimized high-level characters akin to a blindfolded duel where the belligerents start out leagues apart. Nobody can find anybody else through the game mechanics.

Metafaculty?

[ubergeek63]

As per the recent Q&A thread, a Sphere of Annihilation should do the job, if you can somehow bring it into contact with the god without him being aware beforehand.

doesn't that count as disintigration? if so, deities are immune.

[ubergeek63]

As per the recent Q&A thread, a Sphere of Annihilation should do the job, if you can somehow bring it into contact with the god without him being aware beforehand.

doesn't that count as disintigration? if so, deities are immune.

and since the intervention of a deity is the only thing that can bring an annihilated character back, one has to assume that deities are immune.

[Thurbane]

Well, depends if you're looking at RAW, or RAI. RAI, yes, I agree that SoA should be counted as a disintegration effect. RAW? I can find nothing on the Sphere that indicates that it does get counted as disintegration.

[ubergeek63]

Well, depends if you're looking at RAW, or RAI. RAI, yes, I agree that SoA should be counted as a disintegration effect. RAW? I can find nothing on the Sphere that indicates that it does get counted as disintegration.

I didn't either... I did, as I said, see that Deities could counter the effects of a SoA on a character. That implies that they could counter it on themselves as well, but I suppose that would come under the RAI too.

[classy one]

I'll reiterate what I said about the outlands. The stronger the god the further in you'll have to go. I'm not sure how it applies to epic spells as I can't find specifics for the Outlands in DMG or the Planer handbook.

[ubergeek63]

I'll reiterate what I said about the outlands. The stronger the god the further in you'll have to go. I'm not sure how it applies to epic spells as I can't find specifics for the Outlands in DMG or the Planer handbook.

Planescape campaign setting

[Tyndmyr]

Immune to poison, cold, acid, imprisonment,

SR67, FR37, AC73, 60 on all saves, 800HP ...

HOW DO YOU EFFECT IT LET ALONE DEFEAT IT????

Step 1: Mind Blank is kept up at all times, because I play a wizard. I'm not even going to consider taking on a god until it's been up for months.

Step 2: Donate heavily to my local church o' magic. Attain highest rank. This probably happens at like, level 5. I now have one free counterspell per day that bypasses all limitations like having actions ready, having a spell to counter with, etc.

Step 3: Locate diety. Legend Lore comes into play here. CoP may be useful. Knowledge Religion is always handy.

Step 4: Ludicrous array of buffs.

Step 5: Plane Shift/Teleport.

Step 6: Contingent Celerity.

Step 7: Time Stop.

Step 8: Maw of Chaos.

Step 9: GoTo Step 8

[classy one]

Planescape campaign setting

I was hoping for some sources from 3.x. I have the Planescape campaign setting (somewhere) but was hoping there was something more recent.

[ubergeek63]

I was hoping for some sources from 3.x. I have the Planescape campaign setting (somewhere) but was hoping there was something more recent.

you are one up on me... I do not even have that

[classy one]

you are one up on me... I do not even have that

Puff and you call yourself ubergeek.

[ubergeek63]

Puff and you call yourself ubergeek.

lol actually it is about electronics... but i seriously did not think i was missing any before this

[Alabenson]

I was hoping for some sources from 3.x. I have the Planescape campaign setting (somewhere) but was hoping there was something more recent.

Have you checked Manual of the Planes? Its 3.0 and should have what you're looking for.

[ubergeek63]

Have you checked Manual of the Planes? Its 3.0 and should have what you're looking for.

i have looked though that and the planar handbook

[Hiro Protagonest]

Step 4: Ludicrous array of buffs.

No no, you use the buffs on the warblade. Enlarge person, bull's strength, bear's endurance, cat's grace.

For yourself, however, you use reduce person, cats grace, and fox's cunning. Maybe Bear's endurance.

[Tyndmyr]

No no, you use the buffs on the warblade. Enlarge person, bull's strength, bear's endurance, cat's grace.

For yourself, however, you use reduce person, cats grace, and fox's cunning. Maybe Bear's endurance.

Warblade? Nah, this is how I attack a god, not how I get my buddy to attack a god.

And by ridiculous array of buffs, I mean something more along the lines of 30 buffs. If it's a status effect, I want immunity to it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Warblade? Nah, this is how I attack a god, not how I get my buddy to attack a god.

And by ridiculous array of buffs, I mean something more along the lines of 30 buffs. If it's a status effect, I want immunity to it.

On yourself, you'd also use iron body, haste, stoneskin, overland flight, shapechange, mage armor, shield, protection from spells, and protection from energy.

If you buffed the warblade, you'd also give him fly, protection from energy, protection from spells, and haste.

[Tyndmyr]

On yourself, you'd also use iron body, haste, stoneskin, overland flight, shapechange, mage armor, shield, protection from spells, and protection from energy.

I prefer luminous armor, actually...but yes, you've hit a number of the big ones. I also routinely take the heart of x buffs, the fattest spell available from the resist line, every single stat booster I can(resist ability drain if nothing else), death ward, a wild range of different energy resist buffs to get as many of the different ones as possible(Heart of fire grants FR 30, for example).

Also, Heroics. Cast it a lot.

Consider casting heart of air twice. No additional benefit, but if you have to discharge it to gain freedom of movement, you still have all four heart buffs up, keeping your immunity to crits. This becomes unimportant with Iron Body, but it's a good practice earlier.

I generally also toss on some sort of invisibility. Sure, any god worth a damn isn't going to care, but if anyone else gets involved, no point making it easy for them. Likewise with Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, etc. Hell, even Cloak of Chaos, if you have UMD(and why wouldn't you?) Stack the bonuses up. If you have bonus types without a bonus to a given thing, fix it.

Foresight is also required, as is etherialness. Ditto Spell Turning. Yeah, you may have immunity, but returning fire with their own spells is always positive.

Yeah, I have no qualms about burning lots of scrolls to kill a god. Worthwhile, imo.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I prefer luminous armor, actually...but yes, you've hit a number of the big ones. I also routinely take the heart of x buffs, the fattest spell available from the resist line, every single stat booster I can(resist ability drain if nothing else), death ward, a wild range of different energy resist buffs to get as many of the different ones as possible(Heart of fire grants FR 30, for example).

Also, Heroics. Cast it a lot.

Consider casting heart of air twice. No additional benefit, but if you have to discharge it to gain freedom of movement, you still have all four heart buffs up, keeping your immunity to crits. This becomes unimportant with Iron Body, but it's a good practice earlier.

I generally also toss on some sort of invisibility. Sure, any god worth a damn isn't going to care, but if anyone else gets involved, no point making it easy for them. Likewise with Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, etc. Hell, even Cloak of Chaos, if you have UMD(and why wouldn't you?) Stack the bonuses up. If you have bonus types without a bonus to a given thing, fix it.

Foresight is also required, as is etherialness. Ditto Spell Turning. Yeah, you may have immunity, but returning fire with their own spells is always positive.

Yeah, I have no qualms about burning lots of scrolls to kill a god. Worthwhile, imo.
I don't know most of those spells. The only spell list I've really looked through is the core one. I generally prefer to play melee or skill monkey. Plus, I don't have any spellcaster splatbooks.

[Chess435]

Ring of Wizardry IX + Greater Rod of Quicken + Maw of Chaos Spam = Win :smallbiggrin:

[NichG]

I didn't either... I did, as I said, see that Deities could counter the effects of a SoA on a character. That implies that they could counter it on themselves as well, but I suppose that would come under the RAI too.

A cleric can counter the effects of death on a character, but they aren't automatically immune to death by virtue of it. That said, I suppose there's nothing stopping another deity from raising the one you kill with a Sphere of Annihilation.

[ubergeek63]

A cleric can counter the effects of death on a character, but they aren't automatically immune to death by virtue of it. That said, I suppose there's nothing stopping another deity from raising the one you kill with a Sphere of Annihilation.

true... but deities are immune to disintegration effects and many other things

[classy one]

I hope your laundry list of magical buffs and item function in an AMF....
Unless you the god you are fighting is an idiot he will make full use the fact that his SDAs work in an AMF while your gear and spells/powers don't.

Basically all your dissuccusions HAVE counter this extremely basic strategy, before you can even talk about how to harm one.