What fixes are there for Iron Heart Surge?

[Firechanter]

You know the problem. Iron Heart Surge doesn't really do what it says on the tin. I'm not talking about "stopping the sun" rubbish, I just mean that it doesn't work against effects you think it would work, but is effective against things a normal person would never expect.

Greenish gave some examples in another thread: it doesn't work against Hold Person, but it does work against an AMF an enemy caster centered on himself.

As I see it, the key problem is that it needs a Standard Action to initiate, which makes it useless against all compulsions that disallow you to take actions at all.

Are there popular / commonly used fixes for this?

[Curmudgeon]

I don't think so. The basic requirement for everything in Tome of Battle is that you be able to move; that's inherent in the definition of maneuver (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/maneuver).

It seems like you should be looking instead for some psionic ability that's equivalently powerful.

[Doc Roc]

We have a fixed version of it as a feat, actually, but it relies on some additional machinery in Legend. You could probably safely adapt it though. It's called Big Damn Hero:


Big Damn Hero
Special: [Iconic]
Benefit: Once per encounter, you may ignore [Binding] effects as well as the following conditions: [Stun], [Entangle], [Fear], [Lock Offense], [Concentration], and [Lock All]. This temporary reprieve lasts for one round. The duration of any ignored effects continues to tick down while they are being ignored.

So a translation would be...

Big Damn Hero
Special: Own a lovely leather duster.
Benefit: Once per encounter, you may act as though affected by Freedom of Movement, as well as ignore the following conditions: [Stun], [Entangle], [Fear], [Daze], [Stagger], and [Dying], but not [Dead]. This temporary reprieve lasts for one round. The duration of any ignored effects continues to tick down while they are being ignored.

[Firechanter]

@curmudgeon: What? No! What I definitely am sick and tired of is that magic gets to do everything a mundane can never do, offer a dozen ways to solve everything, and get all the best pieces of the cake with extra icing. :smallannoyed:

I'm thinking of adding the clause that you can invoke Iron Heart Surge whenever you are allowed to make a Save.

On the flip side, it needs to be made clearer what kinds of effects can be Surged at all.

[MeeposFire]

You know the problem. Iron Heart Surge doesn't really do what it says on the tin. I'm not talking about "stopping the sun" rubbish, I just mean that it doesn't work against effects you think it would work, but is effective against things a normal person would never expect.

Greenish gave some examples in another thread: it doesn't work against Hold Person, but it does work against an AMF an enemy caster centered on himself.

As I see it, the key problem is that it needs a Standard Action to initiate, which makes it useless against all compulsions that disallow you to take actions at all.

Are there popular / commonly used fixes for this?

A common fix would be to have iron heart surge have an explicit exception for the need to move. If you want it to be effective against mental effects then you would need to add an ability to be used while under mental control (some sort of trigger). In addition you may decide to tighten up the language to prevent silly stuff.

[Tokiko Mima]

How about making it a counter, triggered by any condition (except death, or dying) that removes your ability to freely take actions. I'd also have it make a strength or balance check against a DC based on the originator of the effect, in order to prevent you from doing the silly 'put out the sun' or 'turn off gravity' stuff. Something like the DC set by the Quick Recovery (Lord of Madness) feat.

That way it still does everything that Conan would use it for; smashing out of being turned to stone, breaking out of being dazed, and shaking off an enchantment.

[Gametime]

Identifying effects that should be subject to Iron Heart Surge is like identifying art (or, if you prefer, pornography): I can't give you a definition, but I know it when I see it.

Allowing it to be used even when actions can't normally be taken is an obvious step. What it should actually be able to do is much less so, and I don't think D&D terminology is rigorous or directed enough to include all the effects that it should while excluding the rest.

[Greenish]

A good change would be to make Iron Heart Surge allow the user to overcome (that is to say, ignore) an effect, instead just ending the effect. You're so bad ass you can roar the area of Silence, but that needn't mean you can dispel antimagic fields.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

How about making it a counter, triggered by any condition (except death, or dying) that removes your ability to freely take actions. I'd also have it make a strength or balance check against a DC based on the originator of the effect, in order to prevent you from doing the silly 'put out the sun' or 'turn off gravity' stuff. Something like the DC set by the Quick Recovery (Lord of Madness) feat.

That way it still does everything that Conan would use it for; smashing out of being turned to stone, breaking out of being dazed, and shaking off an enchantment.This is basically how I do it. Edit: And yes, I add that Conan ignores the effect, instead of ending it.

[Veyr]

Here's my suggestion:

Iron Heart Surge
Iron Heart
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver
Initiation Action: Standard action, or none if denied standard actions on your turn.
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

By CROOOOMMMM!!!

[Saph]

Here's the one I came up with a while ago:

IRON HEART SURGE
Iron Heart (Boost)
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text

When you use this maneuver, you may choose one condition from the list below which is currently affecting you. That condition is removed immediately. You also surge with vengeance and confidence against your foes, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Iron Heart Surge can remove the following conditions: Blinded, Charmed, Confused, Cowering, Cursed, Dazed, Dazzled, Deafened, Diseased, Dominated, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Frightened, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralysed, Poisoned, Shaken, Sickened, Stunned. It can also remove any effect that gives a penalty to your ability scores or saving throws (such as ray of enfeeblement), reduces your speed or actions per round (such as slow) or imposes mental control (such as suggestion).

At the DM's option, Iron Heart Surge can also remove any unusual condition in line with those listed above.

Unlike other maneuvers, you may use Iron Heart Surge even when one of the above conditions would otherwise prevent you from using a standard action.

[Firechanter]

@Saph:
I guess your version will do nicely. It does what it is supposed to do, no more and no less. Thanks, consider it yoinked!

BY CROM!

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Let's hope you have already instituted these changes before the character gains the maneuver.

Otherwise if the nerfs were a 1-time change, the character could Iron Heart Surge them awa

[thompur]

Here's the one I came up with a while ago:

IRON HEART SURGE
Iron Heart (Boost)
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text

When you use this maneuver, you may choose one condition from the list below which is currently affecting you. That condition is removed immediately. You also surge with vengeance and confidence against your foes, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Iron Heart Surge can remove the following conditions: Blinded, Charmed, Confused, Cowering, Cursed, Dazed, Dazzled, Deafened, Diseased, Dominated, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Frightened, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralysed, Poisoned, Shaken, Sickened, Stunned. It can also remove any effect that gives a penalty to your ability scores or saving throws (such as ray of enfeeblement), reduces your speed or actions per round (such as slow) or imposes mental control (such as suggestion).

At the DM's option, Iron Heart Surge can also remove any unusual condition in line with those listed above.

Unlike other maneuvers, you may use Iron Heart Surge even when one of the above conditions would otherwise prevent you from using a standard action.

Well done Saph! This is my interpretation of RAI.

[HalfDragonCube]

The main problem is that magic is cheese with gravy, icing and awesomesauce.

[thompur]

The main problem is that magic is cheese with gravy, icing and awesomesauce.

EEWWWW! Gravy AND icing?

[HalfDragonCube]

EEWWWW! Gravy AND icing?

Pun-pun doesn't taste nice either.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

EEWWWW! Gravy AND icing?

The Awesomesauce® really ties it together.

Iron Heart Surge is the only thing that stops a first level Dragonfire Adept from covering the entire setting in a cloud of 1d6/round fire. Spells can't do that!

[Benly]

It's more amusing to me than it should be that this fix still lets you Iron Heart Surge away old age (ability score penalty), the need for sleep (fatigue), and arguably starvation and thirst (inflicts ongoing fatigue, which makes starvation an effect that reduces ability scores).

Note that I don't think these applications are especially broken - spellcasters can shake off all this stuff pretty easily as well. They are, however, pretty funny.

[stainboy]

You could argue that age actually changes your ability scores rather than imposing a penalty, in the same sense that a dwarf couldn't improve his charisma by surging off the condition of being a dwarf. (This would be a phenomenally bad move in the long run, but maybe that charisma check is really important.)

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Iron Heart Surge is the only thing that stops a first level Dragonfire Adept from covering the entire setting in a cloud of 1d6/round fire. Spells can't do that!

Really, all of the metabreath feats should have had the same restriction as Heighten Breath.

[Tokiko Mima]

Really, all of the metabreath feats should have had the same restriction as Heighten Breath.

I think what was meant was the Entangling Exhalation (RoD), which is a breath channeling feat, not a metabreath feat. It lets you do halved damage with your breath weapon in exchange for 1d6 damage/round for 1d4 rounds and the entanged condition applied to anyone that takes damage from your breath attack.

By RAW, you can't qualify for metabreath feats at all with just Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon.

[Vangor]

You are aware IHS is a third level maneuver, correct? A rather powerful third level maneuver. Perhaps create a fifth level or higher version to do what you want? Figure out what you want IHS to counter, find out when magic is able to reasonably counter this, and create the maneuver accordingly.

[Firechanter]

3rd level maneuver is fine. As I see it, it's pretty clear what IHS is _intended_ to do. Saph's version captured the spirit of the RAI very well. Also, it's quite awesome but I don't consider it overpowered, since it lets you remove only one condition at a time.

The FAQ is taking a different stance on the matter. According to it, you can only throw off effects which are caused by spells that are neither Instantaneous nor Permanent. And possibly even need their Duration expressed in rounds, so min/hrs/days per level would be out as well. And you always need to take a Standard Action.
So this reading pretty much nerfs IHS from awesome to near-useless, as the list of effects that are not Insta or Perm and allow you an Action becomes rather short. No curse, no enervation, no domination, etc.etc.etc.
You can counter Slow and that's about it.

[Boci]

Here's the one I came up with a while ago:

IRON HEART SURGE
Iron Heart (Boost)
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text

When you use this maneuver, you may choose one condition from the list below which is currently affecting you. That condition is removed immediately. You also surge with vengeance and confidence against your foes, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Iron Heart Surge can remove the following conditions: Blinded, Charmed, Confused, Cowering, Cursed, Dazed, Dazzled, Deafened, Diseased, Dominated, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Frightened, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralysed, Poisoned, Shaken, Sickened, Stunned. It can also remove any effect that gives a penalty to your ability scores or saving throws (such as ray of enfeeblement), reduces your speed or actions per round (such as slow) or imposes mental control (such as suggestion).

At the DM's option, Iron Heart Surge can also remove any unusual condition in line with those listed above.

Unlike other maneuvers, you may use Iron Heart Surge even when one of the above conditions would otherwise prevent you from using a standard action.

That seems pretty good. Just one nitpick: why is it a boost?

[Firechanter]

Originally, Surge doesn't have a maneuver type. If you want to assign one, Boost is pretty much the only option. It's not a Strike because you don't hit anything. It's not a Counter because you don't use it as Immediate action. But it _does_ give you a +2 to your attacks for one turn, in addition to the minor, secondary effect of By Cromming any status effect, so it qualifies as a Boost.

[Boci]

Originally, Surge doesn't have a maneuver type. If you want to assign one, Boost is pretty much the only option. It's not a Strike because you don't hit anything. It's not a Counter because you don't use it as Immediate action. But it _does_ give you a +2 to your attacks for one turn, in addition to the minor, secondary effect of By Cromming any status effect, so it qualifies as a Boost.

True, but the shadow teleporting line doesn't have a tag, although they do not give a numeric bonus.

[Veyr]

Boosts are always Swift Actions, and I'm pretty sure they always have a duration of 1 round.

Tome of Battle has several maneuvers that are not a Boost, Counter, Stance, or Strike — Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink. Probably some others I'm forgetting. There's no particular reason they have to be, after all.

[cfalcon]

That version will work well if you want it to be a pvp trinket. Quite honestly the wording on that ability is far too broad to be clear what is intended.

[Veyr]

What? That doesn't even make sense. The ability to overcome status effects is always useful, PvP or not.

As for the ability being vague, I don't think so, at all. It's more a matter of D&D 3.5 not having the proper terms for what they were going for. It's very obviously intended to be gritting your teeth and overcoming the evil magic/poison/what have you.

[Dragonmuncher]

What? That doesn't even make sense. The ability to overcome status effects is always useful, PvP or not.

As for the ability being vague, I don't think so, at all. It's more a matter of D&D 3.5 not having the proper terms for what they were going for. It's very obviously intended to be gritting your teeth and overcoming the evil magic/poison/what have you.


This- IHS is pretty obviously intended to be a "Urgh... I can't fail now... must tap into deepest reserves of strength... CROMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!" style thing. Between unfortunate wording and people playing with semantics, it went all pear-shaped.


I like Saph's version.

[Boci]

That version will work well if you want it to be a pvp trinket. Quite honestly the wording on that ability is far too broad to be clear what is intended.

Isn't PvP where you need clarity of rules the most?

[The Glyphstone]

He's calling it a "Pvp trinket" in the WoW sense, I believe - referencing a specific item (in this case, ability) that is an effective get-out-of-disabling-effect-free card; considered mandatory in PvP combat, but also useful in some cooperative content.

[faceroll]

It's more amusing to me than it should be that this fix still lets you Iron Heart Surge away old age (ability score penalty), the need for sleep (fatigue), and arguably starvation and thirst (inflicts ongoing fatigue, which makes starvation an effect that reduces ability scores).

Note that I don't think these applications are especially broken - spellcasters can shake off all this stuff pretty easily as well. They are, however, pretty funny.

A fifth level warrior-monk who has transcended the minor confines of his mortality? No problem with me. He could already jump over a two story building....

[Greenish]

He's calling it a "Pvp trinket" in the WoW sense, I believe - referencing a specific item (in this case, ability) that is an effective get-out-of-disabling-effect-free card; considered mandatory in PvP combat, but also useful in some cooperative content.Well, I should think it's pretty obvious that Iron Heart Surge was intended to be "an effective get-out-of-disabling-effect" maneuver. Not for free, of course, requiring one of your precious maneuvers known, one of your precious maneuvers known, and standard action. Or swift action for Saph's homebrew one, but that's not really free for warblades who do have other things to do with those, and thus pay the opportunity cost.

[Boci]

Or swift action for Saph's homebrew one, but that's not really free for warblades who do have other things to do with those, and thus pay the opportunity cost.

Nope, still a standard action. Thats why I asked about it being a boost.

[Greenish]

Nope, still a standard action.I noticed that, then managed to forget it whilst writing my post. :smallannoyed:

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I think what was meant was the Entangling Exhalation (RoD), which is a breath channeling feat, not a metabreath feat.

Could be, but the quote said "covering the entire setting"; I assumed that we were talking about abusing Spreading Breath, Enlarge Breath, and Lingering Breath.


By RAW, you can't qualify for metabreath feats at all with just Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon.

There's a feat from Dragon that allows you to increase the DC of an at-will (Su) ability by applying a cooldown of 1 round, which allows you to meet the prerequisites. I'd never allow it in my games-- that's what Breath Effects are for-- but a lot of people think it's 100% legit.