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Ziegander
2011-04-29, 05:18 AM
The Mageknight

http://vgart.org/image.php?twg_album=Dissidia+Final+Fantasy&twg_type=small&twg_show=dissidia-final-fantasy-exdeath.jpg&twg_rot=-1

"Those that cannot endure the brunt of magic need not be wielding it. Leave this to me!" - Golbez, Mongrelfolk Mageknight.

Born with an endurance rarely seen outside of storytales, Mageknights often begin their lives as trade workers and laborers. With inexhaustible stamina they are able to withstand hours of demanding work, shake off accidental injuries as if they were flea bites, and tirelessly press on through athletic exercises. It's no wonder they eventually draw the attention of fighting-men.

But at some point, the exact age and timeframe differs between Mageknights, each of them suddenly show hidden talent, something truly beyond the pale to explain their extraordinary endurance. They are natural spellcasters, like Sorcerers to an extent, however their magic comes not from force of personality or bloodline, but from the fiber of their being.

As they become learned in the basic ways of warfare, being trained in both melee weaponry as well as armors and shields, Mageknights also develop their innate magical ability. Some show casting prowess before they become guardsmen or mercenaries, others afterward. All rely on their magic spells to do the "hard" work like solving ancient puzzles, tracking hidden foes, or navigating the intricate web of social intrigue. Fighting, well fighting's what always came easy to them.

Making a Mageknight

A Mageknight is a natural born spellcaster, possessed of great durability and vitality. While he may not have began his life with the desire or drive to learn and cast spells, he relies on this ability to overcome difficult challenges. Mageknights will withstand the minor cuts and scrapes of adventuring just like their heavy armor, but when push comes to shove they bring a combination of martial training and magical might to bear down on their foes.

Abilities: Constitution is by far the most important ability to a Mageknight. Not only does it increase their already formidable hit points, but it determines their number of spells per day and the save DCs of their spells. Without a high enough Constitution a Mageknight cannot even attempt to cast spells. Strength is a good secondary skill for melee attack and damage rolls, but without ranged weapon proficiencies or useful skills Dexterity is unimportant to a Mageknight. Even less important to a Mageknight are Wisdom and Charisma, though Intelligence can be useful to pick up an extra skill point or two.

Alignment: Mageknights come from widely varied backgrounds, some starting as farmhands, others as wild children raised by wolves. As they progressed through life some became town guards, others shock troopers in a wealthy military, and others mercenaries. As such, Mageknights come in equal numbers of all alignments.

Races: Of all the races, Elves comprise the very least of Mageknights. Their frail physical form notwithstanding, Elves place little value on heavy armor and rely on their keen intellect and acquired cunning. Dwarves and humans make fine Mageknights, the former ever more durable than most, the latter with greater capability and versatility. Golbez, a Mageknight famous in folk lore was a simple Mongrelfolk boy that grew to monumental fame for his deeds.

Starting Gold: 6d4x10 (150gp).
Starting Age: As Fighter.

Playing a Mageknight

You have a formidable base chassis given d12 hit points per level, full base attack, martial melee and heavy armor/shields proficiencies. On top of that you have arcane casting at full caster level dependent on your Constitution! Aside from your spellcasting; however, you have no other active class features and precious few spell slots per day. You will become a tough and combative spellcaster, but you have neither the ferocity of a Barbarian nor the tactical skill of a Warblade. Don't allow the little encounters to throw you off balance and let that chassis carry you as much as possible, but don't be afraid to utilize your powerful spells to save your skin or defeat the tougher encounters. You will never have the quantity or the quality of a Wizard or Sorcerer's spellcasting ability, but your ability to absorb damage and stand and fight will rival a Crusader for toughest customer on the block.

Mageknights have many reasons to adventure, but perhaps the one most core to their heart is to practice their spellcasting craft. As they get older and more experienced, their innate spell gift continues to be a constant fascination for Mageknights. It is an endless source of entertainment and creativity to travel the world experimenting with natural magical power to find new solutions to unique problems.

Alignment: Any
HD: d12

The Duskblade is, as I see it, a Tier 4 class, but supposedly it's considered a low Tier 3. The Knight is a Tier 5 class, or as I see it, a low Tier 4. Anyway, this was an attempt at making a mid-to-high Tier 3 class combining elements of both the Duskblade and the Knight, a dash of unique flavor here and there, hoping to be comparable with Beguilers/Dread Necros or Crusaders and Warblades.

Curiously, I chiefly balanced this against Bards, Duskblades, and with a look at Wizards, Sorcerers, and Factotums. It has its advantages and disadvantages when compared to them all.

{table="head"]Level|Base Attack|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Armored Ease (-2), Armored Mage (Full)|2|0|—|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Combat Casting|3|1|—|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Spellstrike|4|1|0|—|—|—|—|—

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Armored Ease (-4)|4|2|1|—|—|—|—|—

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Iron Knight|4|2|1|—|—|—|—|—

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2||4|2|2|0|—|—|—|—

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2||4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Armored Ease (-6)|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3||4|3|3|2|0|—|—|—

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Stalwart Mage|4|3|3|2|1|—|—|—

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3||4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Armored Ease (-8)|4|4|3|3|2|0|—|—

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4||4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Spellfury|4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5||4|4|4|3|3|2|0|—

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Armored Ease (-10)|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5||4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6||4|4|4|4|3|3|2|0

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Adamantine Lord|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Argentum Apotheosis, Armored Ease (-12)|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1
[/table]

Class Skills (2 + Int modifier): Climb, Concentrate, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Arcane), Ride, Spellcraft, and Swim.

Proficiencies: A Mageknight is proficient with all simple and martial melee weapons, with light, medium, and heavy armors, and with shields (including tower shields).

Spells: A Mageknight casts spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. He casts spontaneously as a Sorcerer, begins play with knowledge of four cantrips and two 1st level spells. A Mageknight learns a new spell at each class level of any spell level available to him.

Upon reaching 4th level, and once every three levels after that, a Mageknight can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, he "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the Mageknight can cast. A Mageknight may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

A Mageknight's Constitution score determines the highest level spell he can cast, the save DCs of spells he casts, and bonus spell slots per day.

A Mageknight has a caster level equal to his class level.

Armored Ease (Ex): A Mageknight of 1st level ignores up to -2 in armor check penalties from worn items. As a Mageknight gains levels he is able to ignore larger and larger penalties, up to -4 at 4th level, and an additional -2 at every four levels thereafter.

If a Mageknight would ignore the armor check penalty of worn armor altogether he ignores the speed penalty of that armor as well (if any) and may run at full speed while wearing that armor.

A Mageknight may sleep in any armor he is proficient with without becoming fatigued.

Armored Mage (Ex): A Mageknight ignores the arcane spell failure of any armor or shield he is proficient with.

Combat Casting: At 2nd level, Mageknights receive Combat Casting as a bonus feat.

*Revised Casting Defensively? DC: 15 + highest base attack bonus among creatures threatening you +2 per creature threatening you beyond the first.

Spellstrike (Sp): Beginning at 3rd level, a Mageknight is able to combine his martial prowess and innate spell talent, resulting in a strike imbued with arcane power. Whenever the Mageknight casts a spell defensively he may accept a -4 penalty to his Concentration check. If he does, and his Concentration check succeeds he may make a single attack as a free action at his highest attack bonus against any foe he threatens. The attack is made either before or after the spell resolves, Mageknight's choice.

Iron Knight (Su): Beginning at 5th level, as long as a Mageknight wears medium or heavy armor he adds his Constitution modifier to all saving throws and no longer automatically fails saving throws on a roll of 1.

Stalwart Mage (Su): Beginning at 10th level, as long as a Mageknight wears medium or heavy armor, whenever he casts a spell he gains temporary hit points for 1 round equal to twice that spell's level (Temporary hit points don't stack).

Spellfury (Sp): Beginning at 14th level, a Mageknight's skill with magic and melee has become a thing of mythic tales. Whenever the Mageknight makes a full attack he may accept a -2 penalty to his attack rolls that round. If he does, for each attack that hits, he may cast a spell targeting the struck foe without provoking attacks of opportunity.

Adamantine Lord (Su): Beginning at 19th level, as long as a Mageknight wears medium or heavy armor, whenever he casts a spell he gains temporary hit points for 1 round equal to five times that spell's level (Temporary hit points don't stack).

Argentum Apotheosis (Su): Beginning at 20th level, as long as a Mageknight wears medium or heavy armor, and has an unexpended spell slot of 5th level or higher, he is immune to all effects that Constructs are immune to, he is immune to Cold, Electricity, and Fire, and finally he does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe.


~

Okay, so, this class seems to have drummed up quite a lot of controversy and knee-jerk reactions. I honestly didn't expect that, which, in hindsight makes me seem naive. When the Warlock came out with it's at-will spells controversy and knee-jerk reactions abounded. When the Duskblade was released with its full base-attack, full caster level, and almost idiotic number of spells per day I myself called it ridiculously broken. But look at how far we've come since then. Tome of Battle has since been released and in my opinion Warblades are almost the perfect baseline for class balance and it beats the living tar out of Duskblades, and Warlocks too as long as it's invested in some form of persistent flight item. Let's try and clear away the cobwebs.


Compare and Contrast

1) Against the Bard.

--Advantages: Higher HD, higher base attack, better proficiencies, and finally, access to 7th level spells (though note that a Bard's spell list includes a few spells that are ordinarily 7th or even 8th level for Wiz/Sorcs). The Mageknight can cast from the Wiz/Sorc list which gives him better offensive capability.

--Disadvantages: Fewer skill points per level. One good save instead of two good saves. MUCH fewer spells known (less than half the spells known of a Bard). No active resource other than spell slots (the Bard has Bardic Music). No access to powerful Cleric spells/No access to powerful party buffs.

--My Conclusion: Mageknights and Bards play mostly different games. The Bard is more of a spell caster than the Mageknight, but only by a small margin. On the other hand the Mageknight is MUCH more of a frontline character. While the Mageknight stands and fights, using his arcane casting for utility and specialized offense, the Bard is standing back, supplying the whole party with very powerful, long duration buffs, and is using his arcane casting for misdirection, additional buffing, and other effects unique to the Bard spell list.

Even trade.

2) Against the Duskblade.

In comparison with the Duskblade, Spellstrike can be used with any spell, but is otherwise somewhat inferior in that you can't just declare that you're doing it. You might fail. Also, the Duskblade's spell list is drastically limited, but he has a HUGE amount more spells per day, whereas the Mageknight can cast up to 7th level spells from the complete Wiz/Sorc list.

Spellfury on the other hand is quite good, allowing multiple spells cast per round, up to 4, but these spells are reliant on flurry of blows attacks hitting and must be spells that are effective against the targets of your attacks. The Mageknight doesn't have the spell slots to keep this up forever like a Duskblade can with Arcane Channeling (Full Attack), and while the Duskblade can hit multiple targets with one spell slot, the Mageknight must expend a new spell slot with each hit. Of course, the Mageknight can cast entirely different spells each time as well.

--My Conclusion: The Duskblade and the Mageknight play the same game, and while the Duskblade has a dizzying amount of spell slots per day ahead of the Mageknight, the Mageknight has a few more tricks up his sleeve, access to higher level spells, a better spell list, better class features, better proficiencies, etc, etc...

In my opinion the Mageknight comes out on top, and that was exactly my intention.

3) Against the Wizard/Sorcerer.

--Advantages: MUCH better HD, base attack, and proficiencies. The ability to cast in dwarven stone plate (if desired). Relevant class features. The ability to mix melee combat and arcane spellcasting. Significantly more reliable at low levels.

--Disadvantages: MUCH, MUCH fewer spells known. The Wizard and Sorcerer know at least twice the amount of spells, the Wizard could potentially know vast quantities of spells on top of this. No access to 8th or 9th level spells. Fewer spell slots per day (compared to a Sorcerer or Specialist Wizard MUCH fewer). Overall lower save DCs due to lower spell levels. Significantly less powerful at high levels.

--My Conclusion: Although the Mageknight is more reliable at low levels, the Wiz/Sorc is always the one with more power than the Mageknight. Casting 3, 4, or 5 Color Sprays at level 1 is always, always going to be better than casting 1 Color Spray and auto-attacking for the rest of the day. As the Mageknight and Wiz/Sorc gain levels there is no time when the Mageknight can do anything as effectively as a Wiz/Sorc can and never anywhere close to as often.

Wiz/Sorc beats the living hell out of a Mageknight. As was the intention.

4) Against the Factotum.

--Advantages: Better HD, base attack, and proficiencies (though not by a huge margin here). Can combine melee combat with spellcasting. Many more "spell slots" per day. Spontaneous casting.

--Disadvantages: Much inferior skill points and skill list. No active resource other than spell slots. Factotum "knows" the ENTIRE Wiz/Sorc list while the Mageknight knows only a minute fraction of it.

--My Conclusion: My only real points of comparison here were around spellcasting. The Mageknight has many more spells per day and casts spontaneously from a small list of spells known. The Factotum can only prepare one of the same "spell" per day at a time, but prepares spells from the complete Wiz/Sorc list. The rest is comparing apples to oranges. They do entirely different things, the Mageknight isn't even necessarily a better meleer but it does require the Factotum to spend more of its resources than it ordinarily would to compete. They both have relevant class features, but the Factotum's allow him to do more things than the Mageknight.

In my opinion, it looks like the Factotum has a slight edge over the Mageknight, but it's a very close call.

Tacitus
2011-04-29, 05:59 AM
Huh, it certainly fixes the concept of a heavily armored mage, I'll give ye that. Duskblade plus, sorta. Constitution as a key spellcasting ability is... different, but using physical scores is not unheard of. I can see where adding your key spellcasting ability to all saves might get a little crazy, but I suspect this is intended to go along with the same level of power seen in your other project? Not failing saves on a roll of a one at level five might be a bit too early.

I'm almost disappointed to see that you don't improve the maximum dexterity bonus of armor as well, but I suppose thats not really the focus here.

I take it that Acid and Sonic are missing from the immunities because they often (always?) bypass hardness, and that was the feel you were going for?

Hmm, with so many less spell slots than a duskblade and no way to get a leg up on SR, it will eventually just turn into a tank after the end of a long day, running off that single reserve feat, Fast Healing, Temp HP, and various immunities.

I dunno, its got high points and low points, but I kinda like the idea. It feels like it needs something active it can do when its out of spells (or down to that last one it absolutely will not cast so it won't lose class features). Being a fighter without bonus feats but a bit extra defense never feels good, even if you were a god for the ten minutes before.

Probably one of the better races from level 1 would be a Warforged with Adamantine Body and a tower shield. Becomes less attractive when you only get fast healing equal to half what your human counterpart would and already have half those immunities, but eh.

And, of course, Dragonborn Mongrelfolk always presents problems, but thats neither here nor there.

Huh, looks like you're missing the hit die.

togapika
2011-04-29, 01:23 PM
So he casts from the Wiz/Sorc list, can wear any type of armor, gets an ability better than what the knight gets at level 17 at level 5, and gets to use Con as a main stat thus being able to trash mentals to some extent???
My only questions are how much you've playtested this, and what classes it's supposed to be balanced against.

The-Mage-King
2011-04-29, 01:34 PM
STOP CALLING ME THA-


Oh. Sorry. I thought someone was making a grave mistake. Anyway, this looks a bit... Well, like it sacrifices power for flavor.

At least it doesn't get a familiar. That would just break it.

DrWeird
2011-04-29, 02:56 PM
Yes, I was looking over this, and wondering about the background.

What exactly did you balance this against? What is your intention for it to be? Where do you want it to go? What do you want help with? What's the angle you're working from?

Ziegander
2011-04-29, 05:08 PM
Huh, it certainly fixes the concept of a heavily armored mage, I'll give ye that. Duskblade plus, sorta. Constitution as a key spellcasting ability is... different, but using physical scores is not unheard of. I can see where adding your key spellcasting ability to all saves might get a little crazy, but I suspect this is intended to go along with the same level of power seen in your other project? Not failing saves on a roll of a one at level five might be a bit too early.

Warrior-mages always have to struggle desperately against multiple attribute dependency to remain viable. This is an attempt to address that without making a Lightning Warrior.

Con to saves might be too much of a drastic step though, I can see that argument. The no-fail on 1 though, I'm really not thinking that's such a hugely powerful ability. Definitely not something worth waiting 16 levels for, a definitely not nearly as powerful or useful as a Paladin's Divine Grace.


I'm almost disappointed to see that you don't improve the maximum dexterity bonus of armor as well, but I suppose thats not really the focus here.

I thought about it, but that felt like it added too much needless clutter, and anyone that wears medium or heavy armor isn't going to care much about their dexterity.


I take it that Acid and Sonic are missing from the immunities because they often (always?) bypass hardness, and that was the feel you were going for?

Indeed. Become more like your armor. I may also remove the Electricity immunity for thematic reasons.


So he casts from the Wiz/Sorc list, can wear any type of armor, gets an ability better than what the knight gets at level 17 at level 5, and gets to use Con as a main stat thus being able to trash mentals to some extent???
My only questions are how much you've playtested this, and what classes it's supposed to be balanced against.

Sadly, I have never been able to playtest a single one of my class designs. As I mentioned before, Impetuous Endurance is not even a great ability on its own, certainly not for a 17th level ability. Knight is supposedly a Tier 5 class, though I'd say it's either a high Tier 5 or a low Tier 4. Regardless, this was an attempt at making a Tier 3 class comparable with Beguilers/Dread Necros or Crusaders and Warblades.

Curiously, I chiefly balanced this against Bards, Duskblades, and with a look at Wizards, Sorcerers, and Factotums. It has its advantages and disadvantages when compared to them all.


Well, like it sacrifices power for flavor.

Er... do you mean flavor for power? I'm often criticized for blandness or overall lack of fluff rather than a lack of power.

Anyway, since I actually really like how the execution here turned out (especially the Spellstrike and Spellfury mechanics) I may eventually write up fluff and playing a Mageknight entries at some point.


Yes, I was looking over this, and wondering about the background.

I think since you seem to have the same general questions I should have answered you satisfactorily as well?

The-Mage-King
2011-04-29, 05:21 PM
Er... do you mean flavor for power? I'm often criticized for blandness or overall lack of fluff rather than a lack of power.

No, I mean power for flavor. Much like the Lightning Warrior (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior).

Ziegander
2011-04-29, 05:30 PM
No, I mean power for flavor. Much like the Lightning Warrior (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior).

Ah, so you're being sarcastic, and likening the design of this class to that of the Lightning Warrior, in which the designer, in a delusion of balance sought to sacrifice power for flavor when he omitted the familiar.

I was around when the Lightning Warrior was written. :smallamused:

The-Mage-King
2011-04-29, 05:33 PM
Ah, so you're being sarcastic, and likening the design of this class to that of the Lightning Warrior, in which the designer, in a delusion of balance sought to sacrifice power for flavor when he omitted the familiar.

I was around when the Lightning Warrior was written. :smallamused:

Indeed. Though the LW was, according to what I've heard, also intended sarcastically.

Ziegander
2011-04-29, 05:36 PM
Indeed. Though the LW was, according to what I've heard, also intended sarcastically.

It's possible that it was. This class, to dispel any doubts, wasn't designed with sarcasm in mind.

Mulletmanalive
2011-04-29, 06:02 PM
I feel like that would have been an excellent moment to use the ؟ to deliver a nice bit of clarity but it was lost...

On the class, Stalwart Mage and Adamantine Lord, i'm not sure what to make of, as their job could have been done just as well by less DR or as part of some kind of active ability; temporary hp equal to the spell levels cast that round makes it a trade-off between longevity in resources or short term resilience as opposed to keeping your bit hitter in reserve anime style. I've always prefered the tactical implications of resource balancing over the "hold back" mentality.

Spellfury is very powerful, but this is still [to me] both less powerful [in a good way] and more interesting than Jarians Spellthief is. I'm not sure it needs the penalty, but then again, i'm not sure how this is better or more interesting than the way the Duskblade does a similar effect [aside from being able to pick and choose energy types between targets and obviously, being able to use Save or Suck with impunity...].

Iron Knight is a simple boosty. Not interesting but nothing to be sniffed at mechanically.

those are all the unique components of this; spellstrike is basically an inferior [to my reading] version of Channel Spell and the chassis is otherwise just a duskblade with 7th level spells...I don't really think it needs the d12 HD somehow, and i can't see where that comes from. i know it's a melee class but they've got to split their training some to achieve this level of arcane mastery.

A balance reference would be nice.

Ziegander
2011-04-29, 10:02 PM
I feel like that would have been an excellent moment to use the ؟ to deliver a nice bit of clarity but it was lost...

lol, indeed.


Stalwart Mage and Adamantine Lord, i'm not sure what to make of, as their job could have been done just as well by less DR

At first I considered less DR as the mechanic, but I decided on a sizeable amount of temp HP because it protects almost as well as DR would but it also protects better against single shot elemental hits like evocation spells or dragon's breath.


or as part of some kind of active ability; temporary hp equal to the spell levels cast that round makes it a trade-off between longevity in resources or short term resilience as opposed to keeping your bit hitter in reserve anime style. I've always prefered the tactical implications of resource balancing over the "hold back" mentality.

This is a fine idea as well, and I probably prefer it myself, though thematically the "hold back" mentality works as well if not better since we're talking about a mage that's themed around heavy armor and resilience.


Spellfury is very powerful, but this is still [to me] both less powerful [in a good way] and more interesting than Jarians Spellthief is. I'm not sure it needs the penalty, but then again, i'm not sure how this is better or more interesting than the way the Duskblade does a similar effect [aside from being able to pick and choose energy types between targets and obviously, being able to use Save or Suck with impunity...].

In comparison with the Duskblade, Spellstrike can be used with any spell, but is otherwise somewhat inferior in that you can't just declare that you're doing it. You might fail. Also, the Duskblade's spell list is drastically limited, but he has a HUGE amount more spells per day, whereas the Mageknight can cast up to 7th level spells from the complete Wiz/Sorc list.

Spellfury on the other hand is quite good, allowing multiple spells cast per round, up to 4, but these spells are reliant on flurry of blows attacks hitting and must be spells that are effective against the targets of your attacks. The Mageknight doesn't have the spell slots to keep this up forever like a Duskblade can with Arcane Channeling (Full Attack), and while the Duskblade can hit multiple targets with one spell slot, the Mageknight must expend a new spell slot with each hit. Of course, the Mageknight can cast entirely different spells each time as well.


A balance reference would be nice.

I gave this a few posts up, but perhaps it would be appropriate to add it to the original post.

"[...] this was an attempt at making a Tier 3 class comparable with Beguilers/Dread Necros or Crusaders and Warblades.

Curiously, I chiefly balanced this against Bards, Duskblades, and with a look at Wizards, Sorcerers, and Factotums. It has its advantages and disadvantages when compared to them all."

togapika
2011-04-30, 01:11 AM
It has its advantages and disadvantages when compared to them all."

What disadvantages? Sure it has a few less spell slots, but there are ways around that...

Ziegander
2011-04-30, 05:32 AM
What disadvantages? Sure it has a few less spell slots, but there are ways around that...

:smallconfused:


Compare and Contrast

1) Against the Bard.

--Advantages: Higher HD, higher base attack, better proficiencies, and finally, access to 7th level spells (though note that a Bard's spell list includes a few spells that are ordinarily 7th or even 8th level for Wiz/Sorcs). The Mageknight can cast from the Wiz/Sorc list which gives him better offensive capability.

--Disadvantages: Fewer skill points per level. One good save instead of two good saves. MUCH fewer spells known (less than half the spells known of a Bard). No active resource other than spell slots (the Bard has Bardic Music). No access to powerful Cleric spells/No access to powerful party buffs.

--My Conclusion: Mageknights and Bards play mostly different games. The Bard is more of a spell caster than the Mageknight, but only by a small margin. On the other hand the Mageknight is MUCH more of a frontline character. While the Mageknight stands and fights, using his arcane casting for utility and specialized offense, the Bard is standing back, supplying the whole party with very powerful, long duration buffs, and is using his arcane casting for misdirection, additional buffing, and other effects unique to the Bard spell list.

Even trade.

2) Against the Duskblade.

I've already covered the advantages and disadvantages of the Mageknight vs the Duskblade fairly extensively.

--My Conclusion: The Duskblade and the Mageknight play the same game, and while the Duskblade has a dizzying amount of spell slots per day ahead of the Mageknight, the Mageknight has a few more tricks up his sleeve, access to higher level spells, a better spell list, better class features, better proficiencies, etc, etc...

In my opinion the Mageknight comes out on top, and that was exactly my intention.

3) Against the Wizard/Sorcerer.

--Advantages: MUCH better HD, base attack, and proficiencies. The ability to cast in dwarven stone plate (if desired). Relevant class features. The ability to mix melee combat and arcane spellcasting. Significantly more reliable at low levels.

--Disadvantages: MUCH, MUCH fewer spells known. The Wizard and Sorcerer know at least twice the amount of spells, the Wizard could potentially know vast quantities of spells on top of this. No access to 8th or 9th level spells. Fewer spell slots per day (compared to a Sorcerer or Specialist Wizard MUCH fewer). Overall lower save DCs due to lower spell levels. Significantly less powerful at high levels.

--My Conclusion: Although the Mageknight is more reliable at low levels, the Wiz/Sorc is always the one with more power than the Mageknight. Casting 3, 4, or 5 Color Sprays at level 1 is always, always going to be better than casting 1 Color Spray and auto-attacking for the rest of the day. As the Mageknight and Wiz/Sorc gain levels there is no time when the Mageknight can do anything as effectively as a Wiz/Sorc can and never anywhere close to as often.

Wiz/Sorc beats the living hell out of a Mageknight. As was the intention.

4) Against the Factotum.

--Advantages: Better HD, base attack, and proficiencies (though not by a huge margin here). Can combine melee combat with spellcasting. Many more "spell slots" per day. Spontaneous casting.

--Disadvantages: Much inferior skill points and skill list. No active resource other than spell slots. Factotum "knows" the ENTIRE Wiz/Sorc list while the Mageknight knows only a minute fraction of it.

--My Conclusion: My only real points of comparison here were around spellcasting. The Mageknight has many more spells per day and casts spontaneously from a small list of spells known. The Factotum can only prepare one of the same "spell" per day at a time, but prepares spells from the complete Wiz/Sorc list. The rest is comparing apples to oranges. They do entirely different things, the Mageknight isn't even necessarily a better meleer but it does require the Factotum to spend more of its resources than it ordinarily would to compete. They both have relevant class features, but the Factotum's allow him to do more things than the Mageknight.

In my opinion, it looks like the Factotum has a slight edge over the Mageknight, but it's a very close call.


[...]Stalwart Mage and Adamantine Lord, i'm not sure what to make of, as their job could have been done just as well by less DR or as part of some kind of active ability; temporary hp equal to the spell levels cast that round[...]

I've decided to go with this idea after all.

Realms of Chaos
2011-04-30, 10:58 AM
Hmmm... my only (slight) concern with this class is the interraction between spellstrike and swift action spells. Was it intended that this class should grant an extra attack in addition to your full attack each round?

I don't know about being overpowered but the idea of making 5 attacks and casting 5 spells in a single round is a bit... daunting.

Ziegander
2011-04-30, 12:03 PM
Hmmm... my only (slight) concern with this class is the interraction between spellstrike and swift action spells. Was it intended that this class should grant an extra attack in addition to your full attack each round?

Swift action spells don't provoke attacks of opportunity and thus can't be cast defensively.


I don't know about being overpowered but the idea of making 5 attacks and casting 5 spells in a single round is a bit... daunting.

Remember, a Duskblade could already hit up to 5 targets with a single blasty spell using just 1 spell slot. You do take a penalty to attack rolls and you can only cast spells a) that can effect the struck target, and b) only if you hit your target first. So no spamming summons, or celerity or anything like that with Spellfury. But yes it's certainly a powerful effect.

togapika
2011-04-30, 12:07 PM
The problem is that you're assuming a character of this class would play like a certain kind of Wiz/Sorc. Why would I want to cast one color spray a day, when instead I could buff myself to hell and gone and be much better for it?
Just extend and persist as many buffs as possible and wade into melee combat without a care in the world...

Ziegander
2011-04-30, 12:44 PM
The problem is that you're assuming a character of this class would play like a certain kind of Wiz/Sorc.

Yes, I assumed the most powerful/most dangerous kind of Wiz/Sorc.


Why would I want to cast one color spray a day, when instead I could buff myself to hell and gone and be much better for it?

Explain at what levels "buffing yourself to hell and gone" will become dangerous by using levels in this class, spells you will use, and feats you will take to achieve this. Show me some actual analysis.


Just extend and persist as many buffs as possible and wade into melee combat without a care in the world...

Okay, and then you're still just a powerful melee combatant. But what are we talking about here? Persistent Spell requires a spell slot 6 levels higher so the best thing you've got going for you is Enlarge Person. Nice trick.

Or are we talking about something a little more ridiculous like being a Dragonborn Mongrelfolk with a Cleric level for Turn Undead, and the Alternate Source Spell feat along with Divine Metamagic, Practical Metamagic, Arcane Thesis, and Arcane Disciple? Okay, sure, you can now pick up Persistent Spell at 15th level, and with Cha 16, you can persist Righteous Might (four uses of Turn Undead), and Fly (two uses of Turn Undead). Cool, you're large sized and you can fly all day. You're looking at maybe Str 30 so an attack bonus of +27 (Base Attack +14, +10 strength bonus, +4 item enhancement, -1 size). You now have zero 5th level spells for the day and you don't even have Power Attack to go with all that strength. With wealth you could buy metamagic rods of extend spell, but that won't really help with the strongest buffs as two rounds per level hardly matters. But clearly this is outrageously overpowered.

Lateral
2011-04-30, 12:58 PM
Or are we talking about something a little more ridiculous like being a Dragonborn Mongrelfolk...

...Mongrelfolk get a -4 to CHA, don't they? Why the hell would you ever take a cleric dip with one? You'd get virtually no turn undead uses.

This is certainly a powerful class, but I don't think it's too bad since a bogstandard Sorcadin build can still get BAB+16 and 9th level spells. It's certainly a tier 2 and would blow a Bard, Factotum, and the like out of the water because it gets 7th level spells from the whole Wizard/Sorcerer list, but it's probably on the lower end of tier 2 and a sorcerer or psion could both still mop the floor with it. If tier 2 is what you wanted, then it's fine, but if you were looking at tier 3 you may want to limit its spell access- make it more like a Beguiler or Dread Necro, having a list of spells from the Abjuration schools and giving it Advanced Learning at various levels.

Ziegander
2011-04-30, 01:27 PM
...Mongrelfolk get a -4 to CHA, don't they? Why the hell would you ever take a cleric dip with one? You'd get virtually no turn undead uses.

Facepalm. Yes, it does. Whatever, sub Mongrelfolk out with something else, the same principles apply.

EDIT: And, actually, even a Dragonborn Kobold, or whatever you are, won't have enough uses of Turn Undead without nightsticks or something to persist both Righteous Might and Fly at 15th level. I forgot that Arcane Thesis only applies to a single chosen spell, in this case almost certainly Righteous Might.


This is certainly a powerful class, but I don't think it's too bad since a bogstandard Sorcadin build can still get BAB+16 and 9th level spells. It's certainly a tier 2 and would blow a Bard, Factotum, and the like out of the water because it gets 7th level spells from the whole Wizard/Sorcerer list, but it's probably on the lower end of tier 2 and a sorcerer or psion could both still mop the floor with it. If tier 2 is what you wanted, then it's fine, but if you were looking at tier 3 you may want to limit its spell access- make it more like a Beguiler or Dread Necro, having a list of spells from the Abjuration schools and giving it Advanced Learning at various levels.

I disagree with all of this really. Factotums get 7th level spells from the whole Wizard/Sorcerer list as well. And it knows the entire list at the same time. A Sorcadin is low-to-mid Tier 2. This doesn't measure up even closely to a Sorcadin let alone a Sorcerer that's really trying to wreck game balance.

The definition of Tier 2 is, to quote the author, "Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job."

Clearly this class does not have as much raw power as a Tier 1 class. Now, perhaps with great lengths taken by a hungry optimizer the Mageknight could fall a bit less short of having that amount of raw power, but, by definition any amount of raw power short of Tier 1 can't even be considered Tier 2 (though, maybe a class as versatile as a Wizard with power on the extremely high end of Tier 3 could be considered Tier 2, even if I've never seen such a class designed).

Unless I'm completely missing something I believe I've still met my goal to design a mid-to-high Tier 3 class.

Mando Knight
2011-04-30, 01:35 PM
Nitpick: Golbez is in no way a mongrelfolk. He's much closer to being an Aasimar or Half-Celestial...

Ziegander
2011-04-30, 01:45 PM
Nitpick: Golbez is in no way a mongrelfolk. He's much closer to being an Aasimar or Half-Celestial...

Hee. :smallredface:

I tried to find a picture of Ganondorf that would look right, but there wasn't a single picture of him doing anything remotely magical that wasn't a screen cap from SSBB or a terrible fan art.

The-Mage-King
2011-04-30, 01:51 PM
Nitpick: Golbez is in no way a mongrelfolk. He's much closer to being an Aasimar or Half-Celestial...

Further Nitpick: That's a freakin' evil tree up there. Not a lunarian. Can't you tell Exdeath from Golbez?

Ziegander
2011-04-30, 01:55 PM
Further Nitpick: That's a freakin' evil tree up there. Not a lunarian. Can't you tell Exdeath from Golbez?

Oh, cripes it is Exdeath! I wrote this class originally at like 6AM, and I had a picture of Golbez I meant to use.

<_<

>_>

Oh, well. Since Golbez is neither an evil tree nor a Mongrelfolk, and Exdeath is a silly name anyway, I feel like I've departed enough from lore to simply move on.

:smallredface:

Elfstone
2011-04-30, 05:02 PM
This is awesome, and in no way overpowered... I think you succeeded with you tier 3 goal. I thin more fluffy abilities would be nice, so as to reward the player every level but its not an absolute requirement.

Ziegander
2011-04-30, 05:27 PM
This is awesome, and in no way overpowered... I think you succeeded with you tier 3 goal. I thin more fluffy abilities would be nice, so as to reward the player every level but its not an absolute requirement.

Thank you, and I'll consider it.

Ultimately, even if I am presented with a convincing argument that the class is Tier 2 it won't bother me. I'm just arguing for the sake of completeness at this point. :smallbiggrin:

Gelscressor
2011-04-30, 06:40 PM
At first sight, I was very much lined to say it would be a Tier 2...although, taking the limited amount of spells per day into account; Tier 3 seems about right.

Overall, I think it's a nice version of the warrior-mage concept. However, I agree that the D12 doesn't really feel necessary. In regards to the Staltwart Mage and Adamantine Lord abilities; I personally would be inclined to also give it a progression in between levels (x3 at level 13, x4 at level 14...perhaps even x1 at level 7). For Argentum Apotheosis, I'd agree with dropping the electricity immunity. While DnD has usually chosen to ignore the conductivity of metal when it comes to electricity; actually becoming immune to it seems even more peculiar.

I would note that it's awfully attractive to go the 19 Wizard(or Sorcerer)/ Mageknight route though. As written, it appears that this would mean the Wizard/Sorcerer will be able to cast all his spells while wearing full plate and a tower shield. I imagine that this wasn't done intentionally.

Finally, I was wondering how the full speed aspect of Armored Ease ability interacts with shields. For instance, if he'd be wearing full plate and a tower shield (for a total of 14, if both are masterwork) and his armoured easy ability is 6 or higher; does this mean he can move around at full speed?

Ziegander
2011-04-30, 07:53 PM
Overall, I think it's a nice version of the warrior-mage concept. However, I agree that the D12 doesn't really feel necessary. In regards to the Staltwart Mage and Adamantine Lord abilities; I personally would be inclined to also give it a progression in between levels (x3 at level 13, x4 at level 14...perhaps even x1 at level 7).

I'm working on an alternative class progression right now that may be more or less powerful than this. I'm not sure yet.


I would note that it's awfully attractive to go the 19 Wizard(or Sorcerer)/ Mageknight route though. As written, it appears that this would mean the Wizard/Sorcerer will be able to cast all his spells while wearing full plate and a tower shield. I imagine that this wasn't done intentionally.

Yes, that's true, but then arcane spell failure is really kind of silly anyway, when the Cleric has been running around in full plate and a tower shield since he could afford them. The Wiz/Sorc even has to delay their casting to compete with the Cleric this way. It was done knowing that Wiz/Sorcs might want to do this, but also knowing that it would be one of the least powerful optimizing tricks they could pull.


Finally, I was wondering how the full speed aspect of Armored Ease ability interacts with shields. For instance, if he'd be wearing full plate and a tower shield (for a total of 14, if both are masterwork) and his armoured easy ability is 6 or higher; does this mean he can move around at full speed?

I was wondering if this ability needed clarified or not. The feature reduces your total check penalty by the given amount. With full plate and a tower shield you actually would have -16 check penalty, and so with Armored Ease (-6) you would now suffer only -10 of that. If your Armored Ease ability reduces check penalty by an amount greater than or equal to your armor's check penalty you may move at full speed or run, even if you would suffer additional check penalty from wearing a shield. In the above example, since full plate's check penalty is only -6, and Armored Ease allows you to ignore that much, even though you still suffer -10 from the Tower Shield you may move at full speed and run.

Mutazoia
2011-04-30, 09:28 PM
Why, when I read this, do I get the mental image of little plastic figures with click-dials in the base (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mage_Knight)? Oh...wait...

cfalcon
2011-05-01, 02:42 AM
Con should not be a primary stat, and physical stats should never be spellcasting stats.

Ziegander
2011-05-01, 03:04 AM
Con should not be a primary stat, and physical stats should never be spellcasting stats.

Huh.

Lemme try: Cheeseburgers should not clog the arteries, and animal fat should never be chewy.


~~~~~~~~~~

Anyway, a very large update to this class will be coming much later today (probably close to 20 hours from now). It'll look familiar but with a restricted Mageknight spell list, a couple changed class features, and a feel almost like a "fixed" Warmage.

Stay tuned!

cfalcon
2011-05-01, 08:56 PM
Lemme try: Cheeseburgers should not clog the arteries, and animal fat should never be chewy.

Cheeseburgers have a long history of clogging arteries, and a pretty good reason to do so.

It doesn't make sense to cast spells because you are tough. The one time we had this (3.0 Psionics) it was pretty silly. It's also a bit OP. Physical stats already are generally good. Just use mental stats for casting, it's what they are there for.

Ziegander
2011-05-01, 08:59 PM
Scrubbed! For now...

Elfstone
2011-05-02, 05:20 PM
Quick comments,

For the warmage, let them cast in heavy armor at 1st level? Why make them wait? to discourage dipping, keep that to only spells from that class. At higher levels, let them cast other spells in heavy armor.

Also, Id suggest a rename of one of the Mageknights. Perhaps The "concaster?(thats only half joke)

(More mageknight stuff)And give more cool stuff, like bonuses on attacks with melee weapons while channeling, to make those spells count. As for the reborn warmage... It needs blasting power, like how T.J. did his retooled warmage. Just a thought.

Ziegander
2011-05-02, 11:51 PM
Also, Id suggest a rename of one of the Mageknights.

At current, I believe the Warmage will have casting that is Int based with some Constitution secondary love, while the Mageknight will have casting that is Con based with some Cha secondary love.


(More mageknight stuff)like bonuses on attacks with melee weapons while channeling, to make those spells count.

This is quite a good idea.


As for the reborn warmage... It needs blasting power, like how T.J. did his retooled warmage. Just a thought.

For this I moved a lot of evocation spells down in level, and others I altered to make them more appropriate to their normal spell level. I still may add extra damage, eh, maybe not.

EDIT: Oh, and I've drafted the Mageknight/Warmage spell list.

Gideon Falcon
2011-05-03, 05:50 PM
What happened to spell channeling? The ability to make a free attack after casting a spell is nice, but what about the Duskblade's iconic ability to channel touch spells through their weapon?

Also, I always liked the Quick Casting and Spell power features. If this is supposed to replace the Duskblade, it needs most of the iconic abilities.

Anyway, keep that in mind for your other fix.