I'm a fighter, and I'm sick of it.

[Zefir]

Hello Guys.

The thread Name says it.
I play a fighter in a RL groupe. And it's just boring since RP is nearly down to nothing. I talked to my DM and he is aware of the 'hit with a stick' Problem. On the other side we have a 'machine gun' ranger. (I call her like that cause she shoot 4 arrows and deals near 40 damage in one round without a critical.)
So we tried to change the Fighter to a Cavlier, but that didn't work well in a City campange. And a Paladin wouldn't fit into the char.

So I thought hey maybe the people around here can help:

I need a class thats tank like, but it has some more abilitys to have some choices in a Battel.

Up to now the warrior is Level 7. Most feats go on a secialis on a Earthbreaker. Also he got defens Feat like dodge an tougthness.

Thanks in advanced.
Zefir

Edit: Read this for futher informations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10905724&postcount=47)

[Wings of Peace]

Have you looked into Tome of Battle?

[Eldan]

First of all: both Dodge and Toughness are terrible feats. The general guideline for feats, in most cases is: don't take feats that give a small bonus to something you can already do, they are rarely worth it. Get a feat that gives you a new ability.

For more versatile tank characters: if you have the Tome of Battle, the Warblade or Crusader is probably your best option, they are about as versatile as melee fighters can get. Alternatively, try something like a Psychic Warrior, Duskblade, Binder, Incarnate... basically something that fights in melee, but also has magic or magic-like powers.

[ILM]

Play a Monk instead.



KIDDING! What sources do you have access to? (Tome of Battle: if you can get this, do it - do it now!) What's your problem exactly? Lack of options in or out of combat, or just the fact the ranger is overshadowing you?

[Zefir]

Have you looked into Tome of Battle?
No I never heared of Tome of Battle befor so I have to look up and see what the DM sais. I only knew I'm not allowed for hombrew classes.


First of all: both Dodge and Toughness are terrible feats. The general guideline for feats, in most cases is: don't take feats that give a small bonus to something you can already do, they are rarely worth it. Get a feat that gives you a new ability.


I'm not really sure what you mean dodge gives a bonus to armore class and thougness givesme 1 HP per Level. Up to now I only took feats from the core rule book.


Play a Monk instead.



KIDDING! What sources do you have access to? (Tome of Battle: if you can get this, do it - do it now!) What's your problem exactly? Lack of options in or out of combat, or just the fact the ranger is overshadowing you?

The one thiong my Dm said is that he prefers original sources. The only I knew are the Core Rule book and the advanced one.
In a way bth, but I'm aware that the Ranger is only such strong cause her first arch enemy was Human and we fight near ponly human.
So my MAIN problem is the leak of options, until now I have to decide:
Storm Attack or not, if I have no enemy around me and
Power Attack or not.
Thats more or less all.

[Tyger]

I'll echo the question of what sources do you have available?

If you have Tome of Battle, or can get it, the Crusader sounds like just the ticket for you. Excellent "tanking" abilities, some limited healing, some versatility, etc. It also sounds like it might suit your RP, as both the options you looked at (Cavalier and Paladin) are sort of "knighty" and the Crusader fits this to a T.

If you have access to the Players Handbook II, you might want to take a look at the Duskblade class - its a mix of warrior and wizard... OK, not much of a wizard, but its a great little class that will give you back the versatility you are looking for.

One note of caution, you may get some advice that will allow you to create a heavily optimized character - take that advice with a grain of salt.... based on your companion (presumably also 7th level) doing "near 40 damage in one round", and your feat choices, it sounds like your group is not into heavy optimization, so building one of the characters that might be suggested here would quickly lead to chaos. :) Some of us love optimizing our characters, but its not for everyone.

So give us some more to work with and you'll be sure to get some great suggestions.

EDIT: So you are core only? What do you mean by "the advanced one"? If you give some more info, you'll get a lot more targeted and reasonable answers.

[Zefir]

I'll echo the question of what sources do you have available?

If you have Tome of Battle, or can get it, the Crusader sounds like just the ticket for you. Excellent "tanking" abilities, some limited healing, some versatility, etc. It also sounds like it might suit your RP, as both the options you looked at (Cavalier and Paladin) are sort of "knighty" and the Crusader fits this to a T.

If you have access to the Players Handbook II, you might want to take a look at the Duskblade class - its a mix of warrior and wizard... OK, not much of a wizard, but its a great little class that will give you back the versatility you are looking for.

One note of caution, you may get some advice that will allow you to create a heavily optimized character - take that advice with a grain of salt.... based on your companion (presumably also 7th level) doing "near 40 damage in one round", and your feat choices, it sounds like your group is not into heavy optimization, so building one of the characters that might be suggested here would quickly lead to chaos. :) Some of us love optimizing our characters, but its not for everyone.

So give us some more to work with and you'll be sure to get some great suggestions.

EDIT: So you are core only? What do you mean by "the advanced one"? If you give some more info, you'll get a lot more targeted and reasonable answers.

As far as I know is the ranger in an optimal status with feats and such near 40 is just cause the player rolls bad and don't know it 100%.

[Tyger]

As far as I know is the ranger in an optimal status with feats and such near 40 is just cause the player rolls bad and don't know it 100%.

Not to worry, my point there was only that 40 damage a round at level 7 is not really all that high. There are some builds on this very board where you could be hitting hundreds of damage a round at that level.

If you are core only (still need an answer... what did you mean be "original sources"?) then does that include the SRD? If so, a Psychic Warrior may work as well.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm not really sure what you mean dodge gives a bonus to armore class and thougness givesme 1 HP per Level. Up to now I only took feats from the core rule book.

Dodge gives you a +1 AC bonus against one target only. That's fairly slim. It's a common prereq though.

Toughness gives you +3 hp. That's it. Improved Toughness gives you +1 hp/level, and thus, is generally much better. Apparently, that's what you were after anyway, so just add the word "Improved" to your sheet.

The problem with core feats as a fighter is that you get a lot of them. You start running out of interesting choices.


The one thiong my Dm said is that he prefers original sources. The only I knew are the Core Rule book and the advanced one.
In a way bth, but I'm aware that the Ranger is only such strong cause her first arch enemy was Human and we fight near ponly human.
So my MAIN problem is the leak of options, until now I have to decide:
Storm Attack or not, if I have no enemy around me and
Power Attack or not.
Thats more or less all.

Tome of Battle is basically the big book of melee goodness. I also suggest looking at Complete Warrior and Magic Item Compendium. All of them have tons of interesting ideas. Just read through them, and see what sorts of things strike your fancy.

Also, note that you don't have to be a pure fighter. If you take, say, a level of barbarian, now you can rage a bit. If the alignments right, a level of paladin adds some interesting abilities. You're also approaching the level where prestige classes are an option, so perhaps one of them is of interest to you. Note that with a one level dip into sorc, dragon disciple might be a viable option to boost your melee and give you some fun toys.

BTW, even levels of fighter tend to be better to stop on, since that's when you get the free feat.

[Zefir]

I'm going to ask him about the exactly sources and I may have forgoten something.

I'm playing Pathfinder Just noticed that fact, cause well you know that may be a bit drifferent...

[Sir Enigma]

Is your DM open to using 3.5e sources? I brought over the Tome of Battle to my last Pathfinder game, and it fit in fine, with minimal tweaking (mostly to skills).

Also, I think Psionics has now been released officially for Pathfinder, so you could look in there for a Psychic Warrior.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm going to ask him about the exactly sources and I may have forgoten something.

I'm playing Pathfinder Just noticed that fact, cause well you know that may be a bit drifferent...

That does make things a bit different. Feats in particular were updated a lot.

Still, splashing other melee classes can mix things up a bit. Losing the 1 hp/sp for a favored class for a level or two isn't that big of a deal.

[Douglas]

Tome of Battle is the absolute perfect source book for fixing your problem, but its default out-of-the-box level of power is higher than many groups are used to and that might cause problems. 40 damage per round at level 7 at range for a warrior type is high enough that I think it'll probably fit in for you, though.

[Zeikstraal]

Ask if you can switch up items, then pick up an animated shield, take a Greatsword and power attack away. Lets say that you have Str 18, a +1 Greatsword, weapon specialization you will do 2d6+19 you will bypass the damage of the Ranger and still have a good AC.

I think if you have a good character idea you can always roleplay. You Don't have to Rp as an fighter Archetype.
Last couple of months I played an fighter In an ancient Greek, Viking, Egyptian campaign. My character was an Spartan Elite, the elites of the Spartans. Those where the guys who achieved their first fighter level at the age of 5. They where getting brainwashed at the acedemy and as a final task he slit his best friends throath open.
He had some awful missions, killing innocents "for the greater good of Greece". Then at one time he realised what he was doing and killed his squad during a mission. He was an archer so he could open fire easily.
So I played an Cold, Ruthless, Shellshocked, former Psychopath with flashbacks to his older life.

So I was still a Fighter, but still had good, fun and interesting Roleplay.

[Amphetryon]

Given your teammates and character choices, you might get some mileage from the Knight in Player's Handbook 2.

[Zefir]

Ask if you can switch up items, then pick up an animated shield, take a Greatsword and power attack away. Lets say that you have Str 18, a +1 Greatsword, weapon specialization you will do 2d6+19 you will bypass the damage of the Ranger and still have a good AC.


I actually use an earthbreaker which has 2d6 as well. I'm not sure how you reach the +19 we don't have such a ton of gold poorly.
My char has a Full Plate +1
Earthbreaker +1
So let's do some math: 2d6 + 6 (1,5 Str) +1 (Magic Weapon) +2 (weapon specialization) + 6 (power attack) +1 (Weapon training) = +16 without any buffs. So I reach + 19 if the damn spellcaster makes Bull strength on me.

But in fact that isn't really my problem after all. as said befor I only have the choise to atack since I'm so kind to give the archer all my arrows so he can shoot another two rounds.

As for the RP: The Cavalier was one of the Dragon cause this Order fit's him most, but my teammates make moves like burning him of cou the grace every enemy etc. Thing where he sais ok they aren't my friends. That leads to the fact that most Cavalier feets aren't working for them. And my char is much away from things that are typical for Paladins so these class fade away.

I really don't want to throw the char away he is great for RP, but since we do 90% combat and Ic talk is nerly 0% he doesn't make that much fun anymore.

Edit: I'm going to ask my DM about sources.

[Gnaeus]

What are your stats like, and would your DM allow you to change them? That could remove or suggest a lot of options.

[Zefir]

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=9057

This is the sheet I made by leveling from 5 to 6

I knew soe feats are not really good ,but it's my first fighter so I picked what i found and thought will make it.

[Douglas]

Now that I have a little more time to explain why Tome of Battle is being mentioned so much:
You say your main problem is the lack of options. In battle, you can A) hit something with a stick, B) hit something else with a stick, C) hit it with a stick harder, or D) hit something with a stick. You find that list of options monotonous and boring, and you're tired of it.

Well, the primary point of Tome of Battle is giving you a greater number and variety of options. It introduces a system of special moves called maneuvers. In combat you have a number of maneuvers ready to use, and you can use each one once to do something specific, usually an attack with a bonus or special effect. Your options list might look something like this: A) hit something really hard, B) hit something really accurately, C) hit something to distract it so it can't dodge your allies, D) hit something to temporarily blind it, E) grab an enemy and throw him 10 feet, F) hit something while inspiring your allies to fight better, G) block an attack with your sword, H) grit your teeth and shrug off an enemy spell, I) guide an enemy's attack into hitting his ally instead of you, J) jump over something and hit it so hard mid-leap that it's stunned, and many more. You generally won't have a list quite that long all available at once, but it should be long enough to stay interesting for a while, and it'll change as you get more and better maneuvers from leveling up.

[Gnaeus]

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=9057

This is the sheet I made by leveling from 5 to 6

I knew soe feats are not really good ,but it's my first fighter so I picked what i found and thought will make it.


Note that with a one level dip into sorc, dragon disciple might be a viable option to boost your melee and give you some fun toys.

BTW, even levels of fighter tend to be better to stop on, since that's when you get the free feat.

Assuming that retraining is out, I would go with Dragon disciple. Your 12 Charisma is enough for first and second level spells, and you could bump it to 13 before 3rd levels become available.

[Firechanter]

The problem with Tome of Battle is, that while it's a wonderful book, it's also very hard to get by now, especially in Germany, where you seem to be from. Also, your GM has to okay the import of 3.5 material.

I don't know a lot about Pathfinder, except that Power Attack is terribly nerfed (unless you houseruled it back to 3.5). Still it's probably worth keeping. But the first steps I'd take:

- get rid of Weapon Focus Longsword. It's your _backup_ weapon. That's not worth a feat.

- as we're about it, Weapon Focus isn't a good feat in general, and PF Fighters get more inherent weapon bonuses anyway so they honestly don't need it. I'd also drop Weapon Focus and Specialization for Earthbraker.

- get rid of Dodge, unless you really really need it as prereq for another feat, such as Karmic Strike (if that even exists in PF).
(@All: this feat is written in German, "Ausweichen" on his char sheet)

- Also, Toughness is +1HP/level in PF alright, but that's still not so great.

- Cleave is not a bad feat in general, but you need to pay close attention to how often you actually get to use it. I remember one of my D&D chars taking PA and Cleave, and over the course of over 6 levels it triggered maybe once or twice. I eventually swapped it out. If you find it doesn't trigger at least once or twice per _session_ I'd consider swapping it out as well.

Long story short, you can swap out almost all of your feats.

Besides, this shows very nicely what I dislike about Pathfinder. Their idea of making the Fighter more attractive was just to make the numbers bigger. Also, many feats being split in two actually _reduces_ your choices compared to 3.5, and as I said Power Attack was nerfed badly. Anyway, they left the key problem entirely untouched, this being not that the Fighter couldn't fight, but that he can't do anything _but_ fight.

Do you really want to play a Fighter? Maybe a different class would be more satisfying for you.
What is the rest of the group playing, apart from that Ranger?

Edit:
What I'm getting at is: maybe you'd be happier as a Cleric. Obviously you'd need to re-arrange your stats, but it's point buy anyway. You'd have to fiddle a bit with the proficiencies; maybe lose a caster level by taking a single level of Fighter to keep using that Earthbreaker (I take it that's some kind of hammer?) and Full Plate, but you don't play so high-op anyway.

The biggest selling points on a Cleric are:
- good melee class; can be _better_ than Fighter with the right buffs,
- has utility spells, so you can actually do different stuff apart from "hit it with a stick", and be useful outside of combat; something the Fighter can never do.
- since your GM seems to keep you on a short leash gear-wise, being a Cleric emancipates you from the need for treasure. You don't need to rely on the GM's grace to let you have a better weapon or armour, you simply cast Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment and be done with it.
- and even if you already have a Cleric in the team, it never hurts to have a second one. Take different domains, and you each have your niche.

[Particle_Man]

the Advanced Players Guide has Traits in the back. The default recommendation is that everyone gets two. You can pick traits that allow non-fighter skills to become class skills. This might help, if you choose the traits that allow for skills you want to use a lot.

Of course, in Pathfinder, even cross-class skills are only 3 down from class skills, so not too shabby.

You could also look at racial substitution features, and see what develops.

[Firechanter]

Oh, small question on the side: how does an archer get 4 attacks per round at level 7-ish?

[Zefir]

OK I just got shot time cause work is over and I have to leave.

First: DM word came in: ONLY Pathfinder sources NO 3.5

Secound He shoots 4 arrow He got fast shooting means in one attack he can shoot two arrows taking a -4 on attack rolls and cause he has 2 attacks he got 4 arrows one turn Full Round.

Third and last . We got a half elf Ranger with hate of Humans and undead, A pyromancer Sourcerer which tend to burn the fighter until i showed him that I can deal 79 Demage to an Enemy ( Critical with Earthbreaker *3) and we got an Oracle skilled to a full support / Healer.

Problem Is my char has IC no real refference to Gods not even aware of the temple two streets away from his house.

[DeltaEmil]

A pyromancer Sourcerer which tend to burn the fighter Wait. Is the player of the pyromancer sorcerer deliberatly harming your character (seeing as you're the fighter player)? That sounds like a jerk move and should be discussed out of the game that this should never be tolerated and allowed.

[9mm]

ok, one, alot of the advice you've been getting is 3.5 relevant. Now that said, the one thing that did not change from 3.5 to Pathfinder is that the fighter hits things with his stick, and thats about it. overall your character looks fine. only thing I'd drop is weapon focus longsword. (thank god for cleave not being sucky anymore!). But for more options other than than "I smack it" you'll need to multiclass or look through the APG and pick an archtype you like.

Fighters doing nothing but smack things was one of the biggest complaints Paizo ignored, unfortunately.

[Draz74]

Sounds to me like the Pathfinder Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior) is exactly what you need.

[Zefir]

Wait. Is the player of the pyromancer sorcerer deliberatly harming your character (seeing as you're the fighter player)? That sounds like a jerk move and should be discussed out of the game that this should never be tolerated and allowed.

Do not missunderstand. At the first level he choose burning hans as his only offense skill and he plays his char like he does not really know waht happens. In other words he uses burning hands while I am in meele with his target. Also he uses it in wooden houses which burn down cause of it. For real it is very good RP and such, but it sucked in fight as hell. Also he has ONLY aerea effect spells now what cause him to cry why there is allways the fighter in the area of effekt.

I will look up the psyck fighter when I come home. Writing from a mobile phone right now.

[DeltaEmil]

If the player doesn't do it on purpose or uses some flimsy roleplaying excuse, then it's okay.

[cfalcon]

I would warn you that the Tome of Battle may be much more power than your group otherwise has. Your point of comparison was a Ranger.

Have you considered a paladin? They have more RP opportunities than a fighter, for sure.

You could also try to be a Fighter with a minor in Rogue. Just a couple levels of rogue at your level will get you a surprisingly high amount of skills that can make you much more entertaining socially. Alternately, the Swashbuckler in Complete Warrior gives you more options.

Tome of Battle is for sure the way to go if you want a really strong martial character. But that sounds out of place in your game. If you do run that, all of them have better skill layouts that the fighter, and some damned entertaining abilities- just ask around (or look around) on how to build a warblade or swordsage (you probably don't want a crusader). The warblade is much closer to your fighter and will require less retconning.

[cfalcon]

Oh! Pathfinder only. Sorry, server was busy when I was typing my reply.

*Strongly consider paladin*. The Pathfinder Paladin is quite good. The Pathfinder fighter is pretty good too, but as you've noticed, he doesn't get a great deal of skills.

Pick traits. Every Pathfinder character is expected to have two traits. You can look them up here:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits


Some of the traits give you more class skills. Note that since you always spend one skill point for one rank in Pathfinder, the fighter *can* get good skills, compared to 3.5.

Look into:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor


Good luck.

[Firechanter]

Well, he also said his char doesn't bother about gods and religion, so Paladin is probably also out, unless they made profane Pallies in PF.

[Flickerdart]

Secound He shoots 4 arrow He got fast shooting means in one attack he can shoot two arrows taking a -4 on attack rolls and cause he has 2 attacks he got 4 arrows one turn Full Round.

That's not how Rapid Shot works - it lets you make one extra attack per round when full attacking, at a -2 penalty to all attacks. Granted, he could also have Manyshot, which in Pathfinder gives you an extra attack, but then his penalty would still be -2.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Cleric is still a viable option as clerics don't HAVE to follow a god. While most clerics do follow a deity, some follow ideals instead. You could have your cleric follow some kind of ideal dealing with war/strength/courage/whatever, choose the domains that fit and there you go. You can now be a melee combatant with options who's not shackled to a deity.

[Gnaeus]

He has a 10 wisdom. Unless he is looking to scrap his current character, Int or Cha casting beats Wis casting.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Lost Traditions(lets you chose your casting stat(mental stats only) for one spellcasting class...can only be taken at 1st level, though, but if he's re-making his character it's an option.) if third party is allowed. Otherwise, he's out of luck as no acssess to tome of battle means there is no versatile mundae tank-type melee class and he's going to be hard pressed to find a good int or cha-based class that has options + melee-viability.(Sans a wizardly-gish but I am not sure if that kind of build is posible with pathfinder.) I would say duskblade but I don't think there's a pathfinder version of it.

[Zefir]

Oh yeah she has manyshot she told it often enougth but I forgot it. The important thing is she shoots 4 Arrows in a full round action each dealing much damage cause of her favored enemy .

I'm not sure why people throw in Skills, this was never a part of the discussion. Also it's not like we have to make many rolls and when rolls are needed we got one who has points in it. Prevents us from all roll when they her it.

I don't think I'm much able to change my stats, when I go multiclass so Cleric/Paladin is out (Paladin was out either way).

Until now it seems like the only open choice is the thing with multiclass, due to the fact that The Tome of battle is 3.5 and cause of that out of my range.

[Firechanter]

Well, I understood it so that he can swap out feats without fuss, so maybe he can also swap abilities without fuss. The only thing that matters is his personality. You might argue that a change from Wis 10 to 18 would mandate a different personality, but tbh one of my group's Cleric players also acts more like Wis 8. :p

Anyway, he wanted to look at PsyWar, unfortunately I have no clue about that one, I don't even know what stats they need ('m guessing Str and Int).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Get tome of battle! Play a warblade! If you don't like the warblade fluff, call him a fighter and give hm fighter fluff!

Here's how I see the ToB classes: there's crusader, swordsage, and warblade. A lot of people sont like the fluff, so replace the word "crusader" with the word "paladin" or "knight", replace the word "swordsage" with "rogue" or "monk", and replace the word "warblade" with "fighter" or "barbarian".

[Zefir]

Get tome of battle! Play a warblade! If you don't like the warblade fluff, call him a fighter and give hm fighter fluff!

Here's how I see the ToB classes: there's crusader, swordsage, and warblade. A lot of people sont like the fluff, so replace the word "crusader" with the word "paladin" or "knight", replace the word "swordsage" with "rogue" or "monk", and replace the word "warblade" with "fighter" or "barbarian".

And again I refer to my Dm who told me: Only Pathfinder Stuff.

Since the tome is 3.5 it's out

[Zeikstraal]

I actually use an earthbreaker which has 2d6 as well. I'm not sure how you reach the +19 we don't have such a ton of gold poorly.
My char has a Full Plate +1
Earthbreaker +1
So let's do some math: 2d6 + 6 (1,5 Str) +1 (Magic Weapon) +2 (weapon specialization) + 6 (power attack) +1 (Weapon training) = +16 without any buffs. So I reach + 19 if the damn spellcaster makes Bull strength on me.


Ahh didn't read that you where doing Pathfinder, so used 3.5 Power Attack. Go for 2 weapon fighting and start shieldbashing and making free bull rush attempts. Friend of mine did this with a Ranger and it worked pretty well.

[navar100]

While Pathfinder Power Attack isn't that great, it's still alright. However, Pathfinder Cleave is a good feat. Pathfinder Cleave always allows you to attack a second adjacent opponent if you want. The price is you get -2 AC until your next turn, but all you need to do is hit your first opponent, not drop him to 0 as in 3E. If you miss your first opponent, you don't Cleave and don't take a -2 AC penalty. You decide to Cleave after you hit. Power Attack is a prerequisite for Cleave. Those two feats are fine for the character.

[Gnaeus]

Lost Traditions(lets you chose your casting stat(mental stats only) for one spellcasting class...can only be taken at 1st level, though, but if he's re-making his character it's an option.) if third party is allowed. Otherwise, he's out of luck as no acssess to tome of battle means there is no versatile mundae tank-type melee class and he's going to be hard pressed to find a good int or cha-based class that has options + melee-viability.(Sans a wizardly-gish but I am not sure if that kind of build is posible with pathfinder.) I would say duskblade but I don't think there's a pathfinder version of it.

Well, Dragon Disciple gives 7/10 casting advancement in PF. So with 1 level of sorcerer and 10 of dragon disciple (and either 2 stat bumps in Cha, or a +2 stat item) he winds up with 4th level spells, wand use, Flight, Blindsense, a (less than awesome) breath weapon and some nice stat boosts.

(assuming that his DM lets him swap 1 skill point into Know Arcana for the prereqs).

Edit: and as a +, he can get some fire resistance for when his sorc blasts him.

[big teej]

Hello Guys.

The thread Name says it.
I play a fighter in a RL groupe. And it's just boring since RP is nearly down to nothing. I talked to my DM and he is aware of the 'hit with a stick' Problem. On the other side we have a 'machine gun' ranger. (I call her like that cause she shoot 4 arrows and deals near 40 damage in one round without a critical.)
So we tried to change the Fighter to a Cavlier, but that didn't work well in a City campange. And a Paladin wouldn't fit into the char.

So I thought hey maybe the people around here can help:

I need a class thats tank like, but it has some more abilitys to have some choices in a Battel.

Up to now the warrior is Level 7. Most feats go on a secialis on a Earthbreaker. Also he got defens Feat like dodge an tougthness.

Thanks in advanced.
Zefir

given your answers to some of the other posters...

I'm going to suggest
The Knight
in big bright neon lettering
complete with exotic dancers pitching the idea.
or girl scouts with cookies

whichever would be more persuasive.

[VladtheLad]

I think you just reached the point where you find melee classes boring. My advice: dump the character.

Play sth like an inquisitor and ask help for spell selection. Its nothing compared to complexity of a full caster (especially a prepared-casting spellcaster) so you should be fine.

Another option would be a magus.

If you really want to keep your character tell your dm you are bored and ask to roleplay the transtition to the new class. Maybe your character starts studying magic or decides to fight for a specific faith. Some hand waiving will be necessary from the dm, but its really not a big deal.

Also power attack in pathfinder is actually better, unless:
a) You are fighting against really low or really high ac opponents and you can guess their ac.
b) You used it with feats like shock trooper and leap attack to deal ridiculous damage.

[Gnaeus]

given your answers to some of the other posters...

I'm going to suggest
The Knight
in big bright neon lettering
complete with exotic dancers pitching the idea.
or girl scouts with cookies

whichever would be more persuasive.

Not only is the Knight a thoroughly unimpressive class (probably weaker than PF fighter, definitely much weaker than PF Paladin), which doesn't really have much more by way of combat options than I hit it, but also (and more importantly) it isn't in any PF sources, so he CAN'T USE IT.

[Zefir]

Yeah Gnaeus did mention the right thing and now I'm just rewriting what I'm really looking for:

I'm playing the meat shield in our groupe and there is nothing to say against this, but cause the enemys are most of the time are range fighter or caster, they can ignore me unless I do something against them.
My options in equip are near null cause of the leak of money. (Damn sourcerer burnt a house and we had to pay it)

The groupe:
The groupe I'm in consist of A ranger, a sourcerer, an Oracle and me.
Since the first two actin most time in range and the Oracle supports with his spells, I'm standing alone in the front.

My problem: Most time I just can hit with a stick which kills one enemy minion at a rate of 90 %, but I'm never able to reach the Boss (Most time he is shot down). Other than that I got no options to act like casting a spell on an enemy or alike.
Futhermore (optional) I need to stay in my Rollplay, this counts out the Paladin, because my char never ever head something to do with the gods and rather hasn't the aligment to be a Paladin. Cavalir is count out as well, because none of his Orders fit my char enougth to not have a denie in his abilities.

I search: I search for a class that can do the tanking thing and if possible has even more options to do in combat than CHARGE.

Sources: I'm only allowed to use pathfinder sources like the PHB. So no Tome of Battle.

In addition I'm level 6 and got a Level up to 7. The option also is a Multiclassing, but I'm neither aware of a good combination to Level 6 Fighter.

Thanks in advanced.

[Firechanter]

So did you look into PsyWar now, is that available?
If so, you should only take it if you can exchange your Fighter levels for PsyWar.

[Endarire]

Have you talked to your GM about how well Tome of Battle would fit your character and how much more fun it would be? Most people are reasonable. Ensure your GM reads and mostly understands the book first.

[Zefir]

Damn I really forget the Psy Warrior I'm really sorry live is so hard this time with my Bachelor projekt.

And to the tome: He won't allow it since it is 3.5 stuff and there is no Pathfinder version of it.

[NecroRick]

{{scrubbed}}

[Gwendol]

Either dump the fighter and make a new character: cleric or druid comes to mind. You can still work at the front, but have some more options at your disposition.
Or keep your current fighter, but swap out some of your feats to at least give you some new moves. Spiked-chain tripper, AoO specialist (Jack-B-Quick variant), dual-weapon/shield basher.

Not sure that will help you RP-wise though, but that seems to be in part caused by your DM?

[balistafreak]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Easy, mate. A lot of people just come straight in from reading the topic and OP (since this is a pretty recurring thread), so they don't see Zefir saying "3.5" over and over again, amusing as it is. We're not a collective conscious, you know, so don't make us out like one. (Although that would be amusi - I will go back to my fun. There is no mind control. :smalltongue:)

And the implication that people who use the Tome of Battle are inherently immature is one we could do without, thanks. :smallannoyed:

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/203/7/4/TF2_Entire_Team_is_Babies_by_Coco_beware.jpg

To be honest, I would at least make an attempt at convincing him to open and read the book. Most of us here believe in a little openmindedness when it comes to sources. If he reads it, doesn't like it, and still denies it, well, there's nothing to be done about it, but a knee-jerk/blanket ban "because it's not PF" deserves to be poked, a little bit. Just because he's the DM, doesn't mean he can't be approached at all in his ivory tower.

[Taelas]

Many people do not have all the books, balistafreak, or even most of them. If the DM only has the Pathfinder RPG book as well as the APG, it is entirely understandable if he has a blanket ban on other books.

It also limits the available cheese considerably to simply say "these books and no others".

[ILM]

Easy, mate. A lot of people just come straight in from reading the topic and OP (since this is a pretty recurring thread)
Yes, because jumping in a conversation and spouting something without even checking what the conversation was about at that point is a behavior that should definitely be encouraged. Especially when said conversation is a thread all of 1.5 pages long. :smalltongue:

But seriously, I can see NecroRick's point (if with slightly less murderous emphasis). ToB would be great, only the DM said no. Why are we still talking about this?

[Zefir]

Well don't blame the Dm for the one telling you what he sais to me. I seem to missspelled it a bit. I asked special for the tome and he said no he reads most comments of stuff and such and decides then. Futhermore not even I have this book.

Other things I asked about the psy Fig and he said no he don't llike this and things it would crush the party.

Also bad news he meant to close the groupe. Not cause of the fact I' bored with my char. It's more cause 2 of the players are a mess. one is so much in the Rp that he nearly kills all our contacts to friendly people so at the end we stay aloneor reacts so dump cause of his own choice of spells that you just ask yourself "Why have you oicked them then?" Teh other one isn'T really less mad (it's the ranger) if the caster didn't succed in killing our contact she jumps in and do it with a char meaningly at an all time change of mind spell which changes her mind every 5 secounds.

I understand my DM.

But back to topic many thanks to everyone even if most just post it's really nice to know how active the community here is to help out.
Many Thanks again.

[Metahuman1]

PsyWarrior, A cleric of an Ideal that focuses on Melee combat but also uses skills and spells to give him options other then "I hit it.", or taking a level of Sorcerer and then Dragon disciple are your best options for what your going for.

If you don't want to dump existing class levels, I'm partial too the last one. Take a final lvl of Fighter, get a feat you like (Improved Initiative or greater weapons Focus come to mind, maybe Skill focus: Fly for later if your DM will allow you to have it.) and put skill rank in Knowledge Arcana and again, if the DM will just let you put ranks in that you can't use till you have wings or fly spell, rank or two in fly, then take the Sorcerer lvl, then finally go Dragon Disciple.

Also, get the Fire Resistance as a Dragon disciple so the caster doesn't have to worry if your in his area of effect.

[Firechanter]

Aw well, better luck next time them. What is it with those psychotic players all the time?

At least you now know, in your next game, don't play a Fighter. :)

[Tael]

Well don't blame the Dm for the one telling you what he sais to me. I seem to missspelled it a bit. I asked special for the tome and he said no he reads most comments of stuff and such and decides then. Futhermore not even I have this book.

Other things I asked about the psy Fig and he said no he don't llike this and things it would crush the party.

Also bad news he meant to close the groupe. Not cause of the fact I' bored with my char. It's more cause 2 of the players are a mess. one is so much in the Rp that he nearly kills all our contacts to friendly people so at the end we stay aloneor reacts so dump cause of his own choice of spells that you just ask yourself "Why have you oicked them then?" Teh other one isn'T really less mad (it's the ranger) if the caster didn't succed in killing our contact she jumps in and do it with a char meaningly at an all time change of mind spell which changes her mind every 5 secounds.

I understand my DM.

But back to topic many thanks to everyone even if most just post it's really nice to know how active the community here is to help out.
Many Thanks again.


?!?!?

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you just said.

[Firechanter]

?!?!?

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you just said.

He said he can't use ToB for various reasons, and also he can't use PsyWar because his DM doesn't like Psionics, and lastly that the DM is going to shut the group down because two of their players act like psychotic madmen.

[McSmack]

I'm sorry to hear that Zefir, I hope you get into another game soon. Or if that game starts up again you might look into the Magus class from Ultimate Magic, which comes out in a few weeks. The nice mix of melee and spells might be what you're looking for.

Good Luck, mate!

[Zefir]

Thanks again guys.


Aw well, better luck next time them. What is it with those psychotic players all the time?

At least you now know, in your next game, don't play a Fighter. :)

Thats not true the class is still good if you want some good and simple standart class. It also depends on the Rollplay. for me it's a class that could be an archer as well as an meele fighter or an tank. And the thing I like best is the Free Rollplay. I mean take Cavalir he is stuck to his order or his bonuses are denied.

[Ashiel]

The problem with Tome of Battle is, that while it's a wonderful book, it's also very hard to get by now, especially in Germany, where you seem to be from. Also, your GM has to okay the import of 3.5 material.

I don't know a lot about Pathfinder, except that Power Attack is terribly nerfed (unless you houseruled it back to 3.5). Still it's probably worth keeping. But the first steps I'd take:

I'd like to jump in and say this is a mistake. Pathfinder Power attack is a buff, not a nerf. It was made simpler to use and grants greater bonuses for lesser penalties. A 20th level fighter gets +18 damage for -6 hit, whereas you'd have to take a -9 to get the same result in 3.5.

The only time Power Attack would be considered nerfed is with the application of swift-action true strike or Shock Trooper, which is both poorly designed and not a part of the design process for PF-Core.

As someone who uses PF-Power Attack, I can assure you that it's not nerfed.

[Firechanter]

It was made simpler to use and grants greater bonuses for lesser penalties.

My main beef with it is that one of the very very few meaningful choices a Fighter could make in 3.5 has been taken away from him. A savvy player in 3.5 will know roughly what AC the respective enemy is going to have, and can adjust his PA accordingly for maximum damage output.
In PF, it's just "On" or "Off". Further culling the Melee's options, yeah, that's exactly what we needed!
I don't care if it saves a few seconds at the table. It reduces options, of which a Melee doesn't have a lot anyway, and that's why I don't like it and consider it a horrible nerf.

[Ashiel]

My main beef with it is that one of the very very few meaningful choices a Fighter could make in 3.5 has been taken away from him. A savvy player in 3.5 will know roughly what AC the respective enemy is going to have, and can adjust his PA accordingly for maximum damage output.
In PF, it's just "On" or "Off". Further culling the Melee's options, yeah, that's exactly what we needed!
I don't care if it saves a few seconds at the table. It reduces options, of which a Melee doesn't have a lot anyway, and that's why I don't like it and consider it a horrible nerf.

Well I guess you can consider it a horrible nerf, but I don't see Savvy having anything to do with it, unless you're seeing the stats of the monster in question, which is generally dicey. I suppose system mastery might be an argument, since you might know what the typical Beholder's AC is, and what your % chance to hit up or down would be, and then deciding how much to PA for, and so forth, but honestly...

It shouldn't suck balls for new players, and quite frankly, it's a lot more effective now. You get more bang for your buck. +3 Damage for -1 to Hit? Oh, at 4th level I get +6 to damage for -2 to hit? Oh at 8th level I get +9 to damage for -3 to hit? Hmmm, I'm still sitting at a higher attack bonus than the Bard/Cleric/Druid/etc. :smallamused:

I'm sorry, but I can't really seriously accept trying to metagame the AC of the opponent to dip your attack bonus down one more point to be a real argument for "giving them options". Nah, I can't do it. It just doesn't make much sense. If you don't know what the stats of your opponent are, then you're more likely to accidentally shoot yourself in the foot (figuratively speaking).

So not only is the PF-Power Attack more user-friendly, but it's also more useful. And trust me, Pathfinder warrior types, especially fighters, have no trouble dishing out the hurt. They out-damage pretty much everything, and Power Attack really helps with that.

Now when I'm talking options, then I mean real options. Stuff like movement, status effects, and stuff like that. Honestly, PF-Core has at least done a lot more in that respect than 3.x Core ever did. They have stuff like Lunge, Wind Stance, Step-Up, Stunning Critical, and so forth. It's not Tome of Battle good, but it's definitely better. :smalltongue:

[cfalcon]

While the game I am running is 3.5 and we aren't using the Pathfinder Power Attack, I consider it superior from a design perspective. The feat as written in 3ed+ is mostly a mechanics feature that you need a feat tax to access. In Pathfinder, it's a conditional thing: it's either worth power attacking, or not. In 3ed, you end up wanting a calculator to figure it out.


For most values, at most levels, in most situations, the Pathfinder version results in a more accurate hit for more damage. Bizarre stuff (that I've never played with) such as shock trooper, or degenerate situations (20th level fighter versus AC 15) result in doing a lot of math to figure it out just right, once you have guessed the AC or near enough.

However, the 3ed one is, I agree, more pleasing, because you have such fine control. Anyway, if I start running Pathfinder with elements of 3.5 later, I'll use their feat. For now, I use the normal one.



Rereading this thread, there is a lot of "try to use tome of battle". Given that it's a Pathfinder game, that is much less appropriate than the normal "go wrestle your DM until he allows a more powerful build" advice, because it's explicitly not even in the system. Seems in poor taste.

To the OP: Good luck in your next game! Pathfinder has a lot of cool base classes, and some more are coming out soon.

[Firechanter]

I'm really happy for you that you like it, and I'ma let you finish, but... well I see the numbers but I'm still not sold. In 3.5 there are other ways to stack up PA multipliers, and you still have the flexibility to choose the degree.
Besides, people shouldn't be so quick to yell Metagaming just because a player remembers Monster X has AC 25. Thinking inside the game world, characters are not statues with a card of stats glued beneath the foot so you have no way of knowing what they can do without "cheating".
When you see something fighty, you quickly get a general idea of how difficult it will be to hurt it. That doesn't account for magical bonuses, granted, but when you see a plate armour, you can expect a high AC; when you see thick dragonscales you can expect high AC, and when you see someone clad just in leather but moving like a snake on meth, you can expect a high AC. Hence, I consider it perfectly okay if a player uses "metagame" knowledge to estimate a target's AC.

Well, all that just as an aside.

[Infernalbargain]

I'm really happy for you that you like it, and I'ma let you finish, but... well I see the numbers but I'm still not sold. In 3.5 there are other ways to stack up PA multipliers, and you still have the flexibility to choose the degree.
Besides, people shouldn't be so quick to yell Metagaming just because a player remembers Monster X has AC 25. Thinking inside the game world, characters are not statues with a card of stats glued beneath the foot so you have no way of knowing what they can do without "cheating".
When you see something fighty, you quickly get a general idea of how difficult it will be to hurt it. That doesn't account for magical bonuses, granted, but when you see a plate armour, you can expect a high AC; when you see thick dragonscales you can expect high AC, and when you see someone clad just in leather but moving like a snake on meth, you can expect a high AC. Hence, I consider it perfectly okay if a player uses "metagame" knowledge to estimate a target's AC.

Well, all that just as an aside.

The maths have been done in one of the 3.5 vs PF threads around here. If you look at the monsters in the bestiary, when you're going against appropriately CR'd monsters, PF PA comes out ahead. FRA or otherwise.

[Ashiel]

I'm really happy for you that you like it, and I'ma let you finish, but... well I see the numbers but I'm still not sold. In 3.5 there are other ways to stack up PA multipliers, and you still have the flexibility to choose the degree.
Besides, people shouldn't be so quick to yell Metagaming just because a player remembers Monster X has AC 25. Thinking inside the game world, characters are not statues with a card of stats glued beneath the foot so you have no way of knowing what they can do without "cheating".
When you see something fighty, you quickly get a general idea of how difficult it will be to hurt it. That doesn't account for magical bonuses, granted, but when you see a plate armour, you can expect a high AC; when you see thick dragonscales you can expect high AC, and when you see someone clad just in leather but moving like a snake on meth, you can expect a high AC. Hence, I consider it perfectly okay if a player uses "metagame" knowledge to estimate a target's AC.

Well, all that just as an aside.

I'm not using metagame in the derogatory sense. I'm using it in its literal sense. Such as putting certain cards in your Magic The Gathering deck that are specifically to counter a type of deck that is currently popular in the magic tournament scene, even if you wouldn't normally. Using the knowledge that the % of decks being played are that, you make a choice that is outside the scope of the actual game.

Meanwhile, you are relying on your metagame knowledge to merely try to guess the appropriate amount you are power attacking for. We have stuff from Crocodile Hide (+4 AC) to Nekkid Balor Flesh (+19 or so), plus Dexterity modifiers, feats, spells (mage armor, shield of faith, etc), and so forth. In short, full plate is +9 AC (in Pathfinder), but that's only one thing out of many different things that determines AC; and the fact is you have little legitimate way of determining their exact AC unless the GM actually tells you. Even then, if you can sit and figure out (in a timely fashion) how much of a hit you want to take to your accuracy to try and damage them, then that's fine.

However, the penalty for Power Attack in Pathfinder is mild, and as noted by InfernalBargain, is quite strong against level appropriate enemies, where you can retain solid to hit % while banking a ton of extra damage per hit (and most of your hits will likely land, especially if you're buffed).

1st level (18 Strength): I turn 2d6+6 into 2d6+9 by accepting a +4 to hit instead of +5.
4th level (20 Strength): I turn 2d6+9 into 2d6+15 by accepting a +8 instead of a +10.
8th level (22 Strength): I turn 2d6+13 into 2d6+22 by accepting a +15 instead of a +18.

Etc, etc, etc.

'Cause honestly, what kind of armor someone is wearing can mean diddly to their armor class (heck, you can even get armor that looks like something else, even regular clothing).