Things (gods, mostly) which *shouldn't* be statted

[danzibr]

If you look through the BoVD you find stats for all the demons and devils, and some of them aren't too tough, really, but other threads maintain it'd be toooootally impossible for anyone to ever kill one.

And similarly for the Lady of Pain. My question is... what's to prevent them from having stats? I mean, the Lady of Pain is an actual chick, I assume (a goddess, hey, whatever), so she should have *some* sort of stats. Even if the stats say something like, "Can kill any mortal at any time with no problem."

[Cog]

And similarly for the Lady of Pain. My question is... what's to prevent them from having stats?
The intentional lack of stats, mainly.

I mean, the Lady of Pain is an actual chick, I assume...
By my understanding, that's not one it's wise to simply assume things about. :smallcool:

[Aricandor]

You can put whatever stats you like to whatever you like, I suppose, as long as it's something you're fine with classifying as essentially killable once you go so far as to put down hit points and saves and whatnot. A lot of players are going to consider anything with a hit point total a challenge to be overcome and perhaps even obviously defeatable, which isn't necessarily true when one starts putting in salient divine abilities. Putting something's stats as "can kill any mortal with ease" is just a different kind of statting. :smallbiggrin:

As for people claiming things to be unkillable that certainly aren't, it could just be something as simple as "unkillable for average people". Even mid-CR devils and demons can seriously mess up small armies, even those including low-level spellcasters, and something like Demogorgon or Mephistopheles released definitely has the power to wipe out a country or three if some heroes or other seriously high-level characters aren't around.

[arguskos]

And similarly for the Lady of Pain. My question is... what's to prevent them from having stats? I mean, the Lady of Pain is an actual chick, I assume (a goddess, hey, whatever), so she should have *some* sort of stats. Even if the stats say something like, "Can kill any mortal at any time with no problem."
Ya bleedin' biter, shut yer rattlin' brain-box, lest 'er shadow fall across ye! Th' Sword don't take kindly ta yammerin' 'bout th' dark 'o it!

[Maerok]

BoVD didn't really do a good job with statting up the biggies, let alone anything else. It seems like some of the most impressive efforts end up being homebrew.

The situation of should everything have stats/be killable is kind of interesting. Is it too much to ask for maybe one figure that the PCs can't trounce? DnD adventuring parties seem self-entitled to all the loot and corpses they want.

[danzibr]

Ya bleedin' biter, shut yer rattlin' brain-box, lest 'er shadow fall across ye! Th' Sword don't take kindly ta yammerin' 'bout th' dark 'o it!

Is this something from Planescape: Torment?

Anyways... yeah, it just seems to me that everything should have stats. I mean, it's not like trying to stat God irl. In D&D you can actually use magic to go to other planes where gods live (I'm pretty sure this isn't possible irl). Unless the Lady of Pain is some sort of exception.

[Tvtyrant]

Is this something from Planescape: Torment?

Anyways... yeah, it just seems to me that everything should have stats. I mean, it's not like trying to stat God irl. In D&D you can actually use magic to go to other planes where gods live (I'm pretty sure this isn't possible irl). Unless the Lady of Pain is some sort of exception.

It is the jargon of the planes, which all of the manual of the planes/planescape had (at least in AD&D).

[arguskos]

Is this something from Planescape: Torment?
Ain't rattle th' chant, eh? 's the Sigilian Cant, berk. All th' bloods know it.


Anyways... yeah, it just seems to me that everything should have stats. I mean, it's not like trying to stat God irl. In D&D you can actually use magic to go to other planes where gods live (I'm pretty sure this isn't possible irl). Unless the Lady of Pain is some sort of exception.
Careful, berk, that ye not end up in th' Dead Book wit yer questions. Some 'hings ain't meant ta be known. 'he better off left alone, aye?

Park yer ears a spell. Any yarkin' ya hear 'bout dark o' th' Lady ain't ta be trusted, aye. She's th' Sword, aye, ye' just pray ya don't fall under 'er shadow.


Ok, my actual, non-cant, opinion is that the Lady exists to be a mystery. You give her stats, you acknowledge that she is knowable, which defeats the entire purpose of Planescape: that not everything is knowable, and that there is always that which is beyond your grasp. The Fiend of Blades is just that, always beyond your grasp. Leave her that way, it enriches the setting.

Also, we need Tygre in here. He can rattle the cant better than I. I'm no blood, after all, just a berk makin' his way.

[Eldan]

That there blood got's the dark o' it, I tell's ye. Don't ever bring a berk no jink ta scratch th' soot on Her Serenity, 'tis all flam anyhow.


No, really. The Lady shouldn't have stats, because, mainly, she shouldn't be fought. She's not here for that, and plots are rarely, if ever, about her. She's a background figure, there to explain why Sigil, and, by extension the entire setting, still exists. And she is better off mysterious.

She can't kill anyone, anywhere. She can't, apparently, touch people outside Sigil. Harbinger House seems to be a blind spot to her. Why? Who knows.

[Tvtyrant]

And you could make a campaign about killing her if you wanted and stat her up, but there wouldn't be a sigil once you do.

It would be kind of cool to make it a trap, so that whoever kills the Lady of Pain suddenly becomes the Lady of Pain. In that regard litterally thousands of people have killed here and simply become her new form. She has been Demons and Devils and Gods and will be forever.

[Heliomance]

d6 investigators per round.

[arguskos]

That there blood got's the dark o' it, I tell's ye. Don't ever bring a berk no jink ta scratch th' soot on Her Serenity, 'tis all flam anyhow.
Oi, 'ere's a cutter 'at's got th' right o' it! Look at ol' Aoskar, eh? 'eres a berk who tried himself ta beat th' Lady. Got right scragged he did, 'n a god he was! Leave it lie, bubber, and get ya back ta bubbin'.


She can't kill anyone, anywhere. She can't, apparently, touch people outside Sigil. Harbinger House seems to be a blind spot to her. Why? Who knows.
Oi, half-head, what 'bout 'at old cult o' the Lady? Her Grace ended 'em poor sods quick enough!


Man I'm outta practice. I need to speak in the cant more frequently. Good to have practice. Also, this (http://www.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/lady-pain) is relevant, especially the note at the bottom, and this line most critically: "Attempting to kill off the Lady makes about as much sense as attempting to kill off the sun or the sky."

[Eldan]

Actually, less so. Killing suns can happen. Fenris can do it, as can the Illithid Empire. There's probably something in Spelljammer that can do it too.

The Sky would be more complicated, as it's really just more of an abstract concept. But I could see it done.

The Lady? Well, if the DM goes along... but it would end Planescape along with her.

[Tvtyrant]

Actually, less so. Killing suns can happen. Fenris can do it, as can the Illithid Empire. There's probably something in Spelljammer that can do it too.

The Sky would be more complicated, as it's really just more of an abstract concept. But I could see it done.

The Lady? Well, if the DM goes along... but it would end Planescape along with her.

I think you could run Planescape from some of the other planar cities; The City of Brass would make a reasonable replacement. The big problem is that you would have little protection from fiends and celestials fighting there.

[arguskos]

Actually, less so. Killing suns can happen. Fenris can do it, as can the Illithid Empire. There's probably something in Spelljammer that can do it too.
'ats a load a screed, it is. Tain't no such thing, ya hear.


The Sky would be more complicated, as it's really just more of an abstract concept. But I could see it done.
'em Wind Dukes o' Aaqa'd have somethin' ta say 'bout all that. Probably "Ow, I'm dead!" or some such.


The Lady? Well, if the DM goes along... but it would end Planescape along with her.
Aye, that it would. Bad all 'bout, I says.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'm not against true gods and high, high-powered devils and demons from having stats: I'm just against using the default (even low epic) DND rules from stating them. I'm totally fine with the PCs seeing and interacting with Asmodeus true form, but he'd be stated as a Nobilis character rather than a DND character.:smallbiggrin:

[No brains]

So if the Lady is unknowable, how do you know to trust the DM?

The last step of Gnosis got stats. (Big Lawful Good Guy in BoED) How are we supposed to use the Lady of Pain in games if we don't know her abilities? Even as a figure who is always one layer of management away from the PCs, always with some person under her before you get to her, how do you decide if she can do that? What is her Leadership score? What is her Affiliation Rank? Why should any (N)PC give a cold god damn about her if she can't be interacted with?

She is a vacuum. I abhor her. >:/

[Eldan]

I think you could run Planescape from some of the other planar cities; The City of Brass would make a reasonable replacement. The big problem is that you would have little protection from fiends and celestials fighting there.

There's that, and, well, no other city has gates everywhere. Which means the planar races, or at least the low-level ones, have no way of meeting save walking over near-infinite distances. Which kinda destroys the purpose of the setting.


So if the Lady is unknowable, how do you know to trust the DM?

The last step of Gnosis got stats. (Big Lawful Good Guy in BoED) How are we supposed to use the Lady of Pain in games if we don't know her abilities? Even as a figure who is always one layer of management away from the PCs, always with some person under her before you get to her, how do you decide if she can do that? What is her Leadership score? What is her Affiliation Rank? Why should any (N)PC give a cold god damn about her if she can't be interacted with?

She is a vacuum. I abhor her. >:/

There are things known about her. But not enough to completely stat her out. She has a race of servants. She can kill people by flaying them, she can maze people in her city, she seems to have killed a greater god once. She can seal or change portals. She does interact with people, usually in violent ways.
Apart from that?
All I'm saying is: she can do what is necessary for the story, and for most stories, she's not necessary, except as a background fact. Most Planescape stories need Sigil, in some way, and Sigil needs the Lady.

Do you need to know how many ranks in Jump she has? What her carrying capacity is? Whether she speaks Modron? No. Do you need to know exactly how many d6 of damage Flaying deals? I doubt it, in most cases.

[Tvtyrant]

There's that, and, well, no other city has gates everywhere. Which means the planar races, or at least the low-level ones, have no way of meeting save walking over near-infinite distances. Which kinda destroys the purpose of the setting.

You can always provide the means to make new planar gates though, since your already abandoning the as is campaign. I'm not sure why you would since you already have so much freaking room to play around in Planescape. It is like abandoning helms in Spelljammer, you can but why would you?

Though I always did want to do a campaign set in the City of Brass.

[arguskos]

So if the Lady is unknowable, how do you know to trust the DM?

The last step of Gnosis got stats. (Big Lawful Good Guy in BoED) How are we supposed to use the Lady of Pain in games if we don't know her abilities? Even as a figure who is always one layer of management away from the PCs, always with some person under her before you get to her, how do you decide if she can do that? What is her Leadership score? What is her Affiliation Rank? Why should any (N)PC give a cold god damn about her if she can't be interacted with?

She is a vacuum. I abhor her. >:/
Ok, do you give the atmosphere stats? Do buildings have affiliation ranks? Does the SUN have a Leadership score? No, to all of these things.

The Lady of Pain is a set piece dammit, not an NPC. She is more easily understood as a force of nature, like the seasons, than as a person. You don't interact with her, you interact around her.

Note how she never speaks, how she holds no counsel, how the Lady has NO INTERACTION WITH YOU AT ALL beyond killing/mazing you if you worship her or anyone else in her presence. She's like the rain, just comes and goes of her own will. Think of her that way, not like an NPC.

EDIT:

You can always provide the means to make new planar gates though, since your already abandoning the as is campaign. I'm not sure why you would since you already have so much freaking room to play around in Planescape. It is like abandoning helms in Spelljammer, you can but why would you?
It is no longer Spelljammer if you do that, just like if you remove Sigil, it's not Planescape. It's fun, sure, but it's not Planescape, sorry.

[Tvtyrant]

Ok, do you give the atmosphere stats? Do buildings have affiliation ranks? Does the SUN have a Leadership score? No, to all of these things.

The Lady of Pain is a set piece dammit, not an NPC. She is more easily understood as a force of nature, like the seasons, than as a person. You don't interact with her, you interact around her.

Note how she never speaks, how she holds no counsel, how the Lady has NO INTERACTION WITH YOU AT ALL beyond killing/mazing you if you worship her or anyone else in her presence. She's like the rain, just comes and goes of her own will. Think of her that way, not like an NPC.

So...She is Demogorgon :P

[Eldan]

You can always provide the means to make new planar gates though, since your already abandoning the as is campaign. I'm not sure why you would since you already have so much freaking room to play around in Planescape. It is like abandoning helms in Spelljammer, you can but why would you?

Though I always did want to do a campaign set in the City of Brass.

True. However, as soon as you connect another city, say the City of Brass, or the City of Glass, or the Crawling City, or any other, to all other planes by gates, there are really only two possibilities:
It is destroyed, or it becomes near-identical to Sigil.
Everyone will want to control it. If someone does so in a way similar to the Lady, i.e. in a way that stops the fighting, then the city becomes a new meeting place for all cultures, a new Sigil. If not, the Blood war spills in, the faction war breaks out openly, and it goes down in flames. Or whatever the City of Brass could go down in.

[Taelas]

You are not supposed to "use" the Lady of Pain in a game. She exists to make Sigil a sanctum, so that Powers cannot have influence there.

[arguskos]

So...She is Demogorgon :P
He has interaction with you. You can make a deal with Demogorgon. You can't with the Lady.

Her Serenity, the Lady of Pain, is like a thunderstorm that is always on the move. It does what it wants just cause. Demogorgon, claimant to the throne of the Prince of Demons, is like a king. He does what he wants just cause, but you can bargain if you have leverage that's strong enough.

[Eldan]

Ok, do you give the atmosphere stats?

Sometimes.


Do buildings have affiliation ranks?

If I used Affiliation ranks, they probably would. At least in Sigil, and some other towns.


Does the SUN have a Leadership score?

Oh yes. Why do you think all those planets follow her around? Why do all these comets keep coming back? There's no reason why the sun can't be alive. Gravity-shmavity. It's the attraction between opposed principles and the Quality of Heaviness inherent structures rich in Elemental Earth.


The Lady of Pain is a set piece dammit, not an NPC. She is more easily understood as a force of nature, like the seasons, than as a person. You don't interact with her, you interact around her.

The seasons could have stats. The Lady... probably shouldn't.

[Analytica]

If I ran Planescape, I might stat the Lady for my own amusement. It would serve little purpose, though, because I wouldn't nudge the plot in directions that would use them. There would probably be Powers stronger than her if they met on equal grounds, but there's the rub - that in particular would not happen.

More or less. Suppose someone is the almost-perfect portal hacker. I might define stats in the sense that there is an actual DC for whether or not the Lady detects that person's tamperings later or right now. That kind of thing. There is an underlying reality, but most of it won't impact the game.

[No brains]

Ok, do you give the atmosphere stats? Do buildings have affiliation ranks? Does the SUN have a Leadership score? No, to all of these things.

The Lady of Pain is a set piece dammit, not an NPC. She is more easily understood as a force of nature, like the seasons, than as a person. You don't interact with her, you interact around her.

Note how she never speaks, how she holds no counsel, how the Lady has NO INTERACTION WITH YOU AT ALL beyond killing/mazing you if you worship her or anyone else in her presence. She's like the rain, just comes and goes of her own will. Think of her that way, not like an NPC.

The atmosphere doesn't have stats, but it affects you in some measurable way. A building's affiliation rank is irrelevant because it cannot choose who to give cover to, it just happens to be in a spot regardless of what affiliation may be teeming in its vicinity. What the Sun is in a setting varies greatly; it could have a Leadership score or it could be a hazard that deals damage.

What I try to say is that I distrust the lack of numbers anywhere. The Lady of Pain seems to be a sapient clause of "Rocks Fall". Is there a save to avoid the Maze or flaying? Can you gauge when you have angered her? Does an apology do any good?

There are two things I like in my games: Coherent/consistent rules and Logical progression of History and Story. The Lady seems to defy both. The Tower in the Outlands seems to be a similar butt-biter story-wise, but at least it is a static object. What the Lady can do is different in that she becomes the dead-end answer to any cheated ruling or plot hole. When a mysterious, untouchable force can decide to screw you, fun can die in a fiery grave...

[Eldan]

As I've said: the lady isn't meant to interact with the players in most cases.

She is here to explain the existence of the setting. Her job is not to be a rock falling on the players. She is here as a threat to keep the various political factions of the multiverse in line while they interact with Sigil. She needs to be a credible potential threat to demon lords, anthropomorphic concepts, gods, primeval forces and so on. Not players.

You can indeed gauge when you've angered her: usually, it's when you are dead. There are a few simple rules of things you are not allowed to do: try and take over Sigil, try and be the only faction, worship her, unbalance the alignments in Sigil, attack the Dabus. Don't do any of these.

And, in a way, these are all like Mortal Sins: if you do them, apologizing afterwards won't help.

The thing is, your players can go crazy all you want in Planescape. However, trying to screw with any of these rules means that they are, essentially, screwing with Sigil. Unbalancing Sigil means the end of the setting, because if there is no longer a way for planar races to meet and travel, there is no way for them to meet, and so the setting ends.

These things are, essentially, rules of game not on the level of "barbarians have a d12 hit die" or "wizards cast spells based on intelligence". They are rules on the level of "Don't try and go somewhere just because you know the DM isn't prepared for it" or "Don't kill the PCs just to prove how great you are". They are essential for the game and the setting, unwritten rules that allow the game to work.

The Spire you mentioned is on an entirely different level, actually. It's a mystery that is not explained fully in the setting, but it's not essential to it. I think it is, basically, a small impossibility there to show that the Planes don't follow the same rules of logic and geography as our world. It's an illustration of an idea: there can be objects that are infinite here, but you can still see the end. If you want to write an adventure where someone finds a new way of climbing the spire, do so. Perhaps they'll find a new plane there. A city inhabited by a new race. Whatever you want. It's there to give the DM a way of showing the weirdness of the planes, primarily, and secondarily as a mystery to build his own thing on.

[No brains]

Why can't extraplanar creatures meet outside of Sigil? Is the Lady supposed to act as a looming threat to keep the status quo across the planes?

I still think this could, and should be given numbers, or at least ideas of them. You could make the Lady so powerful that multiple forces across multiple planar alignment would need to cooperate to kill her. If she would only go down if the Tyrants of Hell and the Court of Stars needed to join forces, you've got a worse chance of seeing that than... I think I may have found the least likely thing you would ever see, actually...

I always liked the idea of there being a eigengrau of a glimmer of a chance the players could take something down if they decided it would be best for the universe if they did so. Considering, however, the numerous ways that players have devised to abuse high-level casters, a chance that's not even there can be turned into an absolute. Wizards can ruin everything... Maybe it IS just best to say no in this case... [facepalm, shaking head].

Actually, what I was implying when talking about the tower was its ability to cancel even godly power. Anyone with anything supernatural is going to hate that place because it denies them their nifty powers, but I still like it because it could be the last bastion against someone out to ruin the game with even one (Su) gear in their plan.

[Eldan]

Why can't extraplanar creatures meet outside of Sigil? Is the Lady supposed to act as a looming threat to keep the status quo across the planes?

Well. Low level creatures, which even on the plane is the majority, can't, normally, planeshift. While you can technically walk from, say, the Abyss to the Ysgard, it might well take dozens of years, or longer, and the way is not only long, it's also erratic, mutable and hidden. So, a party composed of a Tanar'ling and a Bariaur would at the very least be vastly unlikely. Going from planes that aren't physically connected, like as an example the astral and the inner planes, is even harder without magic.

Natural portals do occur, but they are rare. Sigil has thousands of them, leading everywhere, conveniently located next to taverns, shops, mapmakers, gatemappers and inns.


I always liked the idea of there being a eigengrau of a glimmer of a chance the players could take something down if they decided it would be best for the universe if they did so. Considering, however, the numerous ways that players have devised to abuse high-level casters, a chance that's not even there can be turned into an absolute. Wizards can ruin everything... Maybe it IS just best to say no in this case... [facepalm, shaking head].

I could, in theory, even see a campaign about taking down the Lady. I'm not saying it's impossible, but one of the basic concepts of Planescape is that ideas are more powerful than swords and spells. The Lady should be taken down to a massive, epic quest that changes the flow of belief on the planes, and not by finding the right combination of metamagic feats, prestige classes and spells. If it has stats the players can look at, they can find a way to blast it.

[DeltaEmil]

As Eldan says it, the Lady of Pain is nothing more but a plot device to explain why the city of Sigil isn't under the control of gods or other powerful outsiders, while still providing access for low-level adventurers of any possible alignment to have a central place to meet or retreat.
If your gaming group and gm is interested in killing her and taking control of that city, nobody can and will stop you (there is still no ninja-police-force that will arrest-kill you for deviating from official source material). You'll have to make up stats by yourself, but you can choose if she has deity stats or is a poor weakling who could be killed with a simple house cat if it weren't for some really weird magical artifacts and so on.
Everything can be statted in a way as you see fit and you think is more practicable for you and your group.
Deities can be the bloated 60-80 HD-outsiders with so many abilities that your eyes will rot from reading all the minuscule descriptions. You can of course also turn them into 30-HD-creatures with a simple template that does give them some immunities or special abilities that seem to be good for deities. Or you can have them as 14-dimensional beings from another magnitude of reality that makes it impossible for any creature to interact with it.

[Provengreil]

considering it actually has stats, this might seem like a weird thing to say, but i'd say the tarrasque should be in this category. it's a legendary monster with a home that can't be found, is one of a kind, has lived untold millennia, and is immune to death itself. a reading of its entry suggests an intention by the designers to be nigh unstoppable and, even when stopped, basically immortal. as such, it's stats, rather than some high but beatable numbers, should simply be in the "you fail" range. this is not a monster to be killed, but rather a plot tool for the DM.

[DeltaEmil]

When the tarrasque appeared the first time in D&D 1st edition, it was just some kind of monster that attacked you, nothing spectacular about its description.

[erikun]

Ao the Overdeity is another character who doesn't have stats, as far as I know. He kind of serves the same purpose, as well: He's there to keep the setting together, not to be interacted with or killed.


So if the Lady is unknowable, how do you know to trust the DM?
Now you're thinking right! Perhaps the Lady is real and killable, there just hasn't be a determined enough attempt at her. Perhaps she isn't real, and Sigil is run by the major factions behind the scenes. Perhaps she's the Wizard of Oz, a grumpy old man who has pulled in enough favors to keep everyone under his thumb.

Or perhaps she is just an infinitely powerful immortal who ensures that Sigil stays standing.

The main point of not knowing is that, well, you don't know. You mess with Sigil, you end up dead. You mess with her, you end up dead. Knowing how gives you a chance to prevent or avoid it. Not knowing means that you'll never be sure unless you try.

[Gamer Girl]

If you look through the BoVD you find stats for all the demons and devils, and some of them aren't too tough, really, but other threads maintain it'd be toooootally impossible for anyone to ever kill one.

And similarly for the Lady of Pain. My question is... what's to prevent them from having stats? I mean, the Lady of Pain is an actual chick, I assume (a goddess, hey, whatever), so she should have *some* sort of stats. Even if the stats say something like, "Can kill any mortal at any time with no problem."

A couple basic stat problems:

1.They get dated in No Time--They are near useless as soon as they come out. The stats can only be as good as the books and rules that exist at that time. Naturally they won't have anything that came out after they did.

2.Stats tend to stick to Bland Core--Oh look that god is a fighter 20/wizard 20...wow. You never see a Warlock 20/Dread Necromancer 20 or such.

3.Poor Imagination--A lot of stats are boring. Oh it's a fire god, well then they can cast fireball once a day. Oh it's a death god, well then he can animate dead.

4.Nothing New--Along with 2 and 3, someone just looks over the Core spells and abilities and gives them to gods. No one takes the time to add anything new or exciting or different. So you get the God of Law that can cast Command, but not 'Create Law' or 'Divine Law' or 'Law of the Land'.

5.Poor Optimization--what else needs to be said.

[Eldan]

So if the Lady is unknowable, how do you know to trust the DM?

Well, let's turn this question around. If you don't trust him, why is he DMing?

[CTrees]

Do you need to know exactly how many d6 of damage Flaying deals?

All of them.

[Taelas]

Why can't extraplanar creatures meet outside of Sigil? Is the Lady supposed to act as a looming threat to keep the status quo across the planes?
Sigil is convenient in that it is the nexus of portals across the planes; this means you can go anywhere from Sigil if you know the right portal and the key for it. This however opens up a problem: The Blood War. Both sides would love to be able to go anywhere. The Lady is the solution to that problem. So yes, the Lady keeps the status quo. Not across the planes, however... just inside Sigil. If the Blood War spills over into Sigil, she cleans up the mess.


I still think this could, and should be given numbers, or at least ideas of them. You could make the Lady so powerful that multiple forces across multiple planar alignment would need to cooperate to kill her. If she would only go down if the Tyrants of Hell and the Court of Stars needed to join forces, you've got a worse chance of seeing that than... I think I may have found the least likely thing you would ever see, actually...
There is still no reason to provide statistics. Statistics are a weakness in that you define limits for the character. That's fine for something you are supposed to beat, but when it comes to something like the Lady (even if you say that she can be defeated), it breaks it. Players are very good at finding loopholes, and you would be forced to uses house rules to stop them (assuming that you do not want their loophole to work, naturally).


I always liked the idea of there being a eigengrau of a glimmer of a chance the players could take something down if they decided it would be best for the universe if they did so. Considering, however, the numerous ways that players have devised to abuse high-level casters, a chance that's not even there can be turned into an absolute. Wizards can ruin everything... Maybe it IS just best to say no in this case... [facepalm, shaking head].
You do not need stats for that. You just need a way for it to happen. You could say that the Lady can be defeated by waving garlic at her, if you want.

[KillianHawkeye]

You could make the Lady so powerful that multiple forces across multiple planar alignment would need to cooperate to kill her. If she would only go down if the Tyrants of Hell and the Court of Stars needed to join forces, you've got a worse chance of seeing that than... I think I may have found the least likely thing you would ever see, actually...

Hmm... actually I think an alliance between the Modrons and Slaads would be slightly less likely.

[Ravens_cry]

If it has stats, we can kill it. Something without statistics is unknown and unknowable, beyond all comprehension. I like my D&D gods to be like that, not Greco-Romanesque "Jerks with Superpowers." Giving figures like the Lady of Pain statistics takes away their most fundamental quality, mystery.

[CTrees]

Honestly, I think the problem is in the thread title. Anything can be stated. It should be "things which shouldn't be statted," not "things which can't be statted." The Lady? Of course she could be statted, but she really shouldn't be.

[Eldan]

In fact, I'm reasonably sure I've seen several attempts at statting her. Even putting aside the silly "Everything: infinite" ones, there's, amongst others, the one from Dicefreaks who put her at CR 300, or so.

[CTrees]

In fact, I'm reasonably sure I've seen several attempts at statting her. Even putting aside the silly "Everything: infinite" ones, there's, amongst others, the one from Dicefreaks who put her at CR 300, or so.

Stat The Lady as a True Fae from Changeling: The Lost, with all of Sigil being her home.

...

Actually, that seems fairly reasonable :smallconfused:

[Quietus]

In fact, I'm reasonably sure I've seen several attempts at statting her. Even putting aside the silly "Everything: infinite" ones, there's, amongst others, the one from Dicefreaks who put her at CR 300, or so.

Well, there's this one at CR 85 : http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5&start=120

Really, I'm not impressed. Flay is fort save vs. instead death, 10d6 con/cha damage on a pass? So... being undead stops that? Bah. And the rest of her abilities just let her do damage. 20d8+46, 15-20/x5 with a fort save DC 60 vs. death doesn't impress me at CR 85. Nor does 3,200ish HP. Regeneration 50 and DR 50/- is all well and good (of the type that doesn't allow anything to bypass it, supposedly), but ... really? A glorified damage machine? Unless their "Cosmic" subtype does something else, I'm not seeing anything that impresses me there. Hell, if you can hit the 110 AC, a standard issue ubercharger can put her down in one round, pre-epic.

[Aharon]

@Quietus
Maze (Cs): As a free action, the Lady may banish a creature to an interdimensional maze. There is no save allowed, but the creature is entitled to a DC 40 Int check to escape immediately. Every failure results in the creature being lost for 5d% years, after which the victim can attempt another Int check with a +1 cumulative bonus to escape.

You need an intelligence of at least 90 to escape this ability. Otherwise, she just free-action mazes you till you fail.

Also, the statblock says it's unknown wether there is anything that penetrates her regeneration, so unless you find something, she will eventually rise again.

And here is the cosmic subtype:
Cosmic Entity: A cosmic entity is a creature possessing the [Cosmic] subtype. Cosmic entities do not fail anything on a natural 1*. Cosmic entities are immune to ability damage, ability drain, death effects, disintegration, energy drain, mind affecting, paralysis, possession and transmutations. These immunities can be overcome with an opposed rank check. The attacker and the cosmic entity roll rank checks, adding any bonus they may have. Cosmic entities do not have strata bonuses, nor do gods when dealing with cosmic entities. If the cosmic entity wins, the attack is wasted and the immunity holds. If the cosmic entity loses, the attack ignores the immunity, although the cosmic entity is still entitled to any save or limitations the effect has. For instance, a god that overcomes Baal’s immunity to ability damage will still find that his poison has no effect on the Lord of the First, as Baal is immune to poison.

*Assuming you do not use Alternate World's exploding dice rule.

Cosmic entities can often bend layers of their home planes to their will. A demon cosmic entity that can do this is known as a demon prince. A devil cosmic entity that can do this is known as a Lord. A daemon cosmic entity that can do this is known as an altraloth. There are other cosmic entities, such as slaad lords, tome archons, guardinal paragons and more. Some of these can control their planes, some of them cannot.

For the purposes of those that can control their layer, it is generally done so with the power of a greater god, over as much territory as the cosmic entity lays claim to. This is simply the default however, planar layer control fluctuates. When cosmic control over a layer overlaps with divine control over a divine realm, an opposed rank check is made to determine whether the cosmic control prevails.

A cosmic entity's natural weapons and spell-like/supernatural effects are treated as epic weapons/spells for the purposes of damage reduction, regeneration and incorporeality.

[Quietus]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that a little bit of tweaking could get one's Int check up high enough to pull it off. Plus, she can't do it while flat-footed (can't take ANY actions during that time), so if you can get in a charge during the surprise round, you can pull it off. Or if you can beat her initiative, you can do it during the first round - I'm seeing an ubercharger Factotum with Int primary having a pretty decent chance here.

[Eldan]

Well, I don't know a single source where anyone ever attacked her physically. So, who knows what would happen.

[Jerthanis]

Ok, do you give the atmosphere stats? Do buildings have affiliation ranks? Does the SUN have a Leadership score? No, to all of these things.

Actually, the Atmosphere does have stats. Those stats are: As long as you are in it, you continue to function normally. You can continue to function normally for a number of rounds equal to your constitution after leaving it, then you suffocate and die.

Buildings have hardness and hit points related to what you build them out of.

The sun causes nonlethal damage to those exposed to it for long enough, making it possible to die of exposure.



Her Serenity, the Lady of Pain, is like a thunderstorm that is always on the move.

So... when the Lady of Pain is around, swim checks have a base DC of 20? Because that's one thing Thunderstorms do.

You can use 7th level magic to conjure or banish her in the spring? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm)

See, things that affect each other interact with each others' stats, generally. The Lady of Pain is an exception to this trend, and is in defiance of every example so far given.

[Eldan]

Actually, are there any rules specifying that you need air to breathe? I mean, it's a silly thing on the same level as "dead carries no penalties", but still.

[Jerthanis]

Actually, are there any rules specifying that you need air to breathe? I mean, it's a silly thing on the same level as "dead carries no penalties", but still.

The suffocation rules are pretty well defined actually. A person with no air to breathe can hold their breath for X rounds. After that you make an increasingly difficult Con check or suffocate to death.

It specifies that this can apply to a variety of situations... sandstorms, grain silos, quicksand, fine dust...

[Ravens_cry]

Of course, the drowning rules have their own bugs for the rigorously RAW, see "Bucket Healing".

[awa]

one thing you should remember is stats take space. a creature with lots of powers and lots of immunities is going to take up even more space. if the creature was build with the assumption no one would or even could fight them why waste space in a book listing all the ways you cant hurt it and it can hurt them.

Personally i dislike the whole mentality that every thing needs to written out for the dm that hes not allowed to answer mysterious in a setting he needs wizards to hold his hand and tell him the answer.

[danzibr]

Honestly, I think the problem is in the thread title. Anything can be stated. It should be "things which shouldn't be statted," not "things which can't be statted." The Lady? Of course she could be statted, but she really shouldn't be.

Point taken.

[Eldan]

one thing you should remember is stats take space. a creature with lots of powers and lots of immunities is going to take up even more space. if the creature was build with the assumption no one would or even could fight them why waste space in a book listing all the ways you cant hurt it and it can hurt them.

Personally i dislike the whole mentality that every thing needs to written out for the dm that hes not allowed to answer mysterious in a setting he needs wizards to hold his hand and tell him the answer.

True, but then, you are not required to use any of the material Wizards provides. That's all just suggestions. If you want your trolls to be three inches tall and vulnerable to sunlight, no one is stopping you.

[Ashtagon]

d6 investigators per round.

Hello Cthulhu :smallbiggrin:

[Tyndmyr]

If you look through the BoVD you find stats for all the demons and devils, and some of them aren't too tough, really, but other threads maintain it'd be toooootally impossible for anyone to ever kill one.

And similarly for the Lady of Pain. My question is... what's to prevent them from having stats? I mean, the Lady of Pain is an actual chick, I assume (a goddess, hey, whatever), so she should have *some* sort of stats. Even if the stats say something like, "Can kill any mortal at any time with no problem."

They should all be statted. All of them. The entire point of the game system is to adjudicate interactions between the players and the world. When your system does not function for what are arguably the most important bits of the world, you have a problem.

So yes, not statting them is basically the designers being lazy and just avoiding the problem of statting them out in a fashion that makes sense. I'll admit that doing this is challenging in some cases, as shown by some of the terrible NPC builds out there, but laziness isn't really an ideal answer.

[NichG]

They should all be statted. All of them. The entire point of the game system is to adjudicate interactions between the players and the world. When your system does not function for what are arguably the most important bits of the world, you have a problem.

So yes, not statting them is basically the designers being lazy and just avoiding the problem of statting them out in a fashion that makes sense. I'll admit that doing this is challenging in some cases, as shown by some of the terrible NPC builds out there, but laziness isn't really an ideal answer.

The problem with this is that players can and will read anything published. Leaving things unspecified gives the DM room to have mysteries, etc, without some player going 'but such and such a book says that ...'. Granted you can always say 'this is my version of the setting, don't believe everything you read' but it tends to bias player reactions to information.

The other issue is that some things work better if they're statted in a way that is inconsistent with how D&D works. You can see the breaks start to form in things like Deities and Demigods, where the designers decided 'okay, some gods should just be able to do crap without it being tabulated, lets just make a catch-all ability like Alter Reality'. If you don't do that, and decide to 'really stat it out for how powerful it needs to be' you end up with stuff like the Immortals Handbook, where what does it matter since there's no way the party will ever approach that scale.

I mean, if I said: Lady of Pain, 20000HD Outsider, Divine Rank 930, blah blah blah, is that really better than just saying 'Lady of Pain: A mystery, she rules over Sigil and will Maze or Flay those who threaten it or who try to worship her'?

[Eldan]

Is the Immortal's Handbook the one with the hilariously useless Neutronium Golem?

[Tvtyrant]

I prefer weird mechanics for my stated Over Beings. For instance; only a 4 causes damage. If you maximize a spell it cannot cause damage anymore because it cannot cause a 4. You deal 1 damage for each 4 rolled.

[DeltaEmil]

I would as a gm only give stats out of any being if I was interested in my players owning it physically, and they also show some interests in owning the being physically as well.

[Eldan]

I think players can still interact with things that are not fully statted. Statting it fully would also include that you find way to stat all the Lady's weaknesses and abilities. However, we don't know how she finds out when people violate her commands. Has she spies? Does she just feel it? Is all of Sigil her body? We don't know how she deleted Vecna's week in the armoury from the timeline. We don't know how she sent Rowan Darkwood back in time. We don't know how she defeated Aoskar. We have no idea how she kills the members of the Free League, if she is indeed behind that.

Statting her would have to provide a kind of semi-official answer for all of that. And I think these are things that should either be left as secrets of the setting, or up to the individual DM, if he wants to build an adventure around it.

[Taelas]

They should all be statted. All of them. The entire point of the game system is to adjudicate interactions between the players and the world. When your system does not function for what are arguably the most important bits of the world, you have a problem.

So yes, not statting them is basically the designers being lazy and just avoiding the problem of statting them out in a fashion that makes sense. I'll admit that doing this is challenging in some cases, as shown by some of the terrible NPC builds out there, but laziness isn't really an ideal answer.
It is rather impossible to 'stat' omnipotence. Her Serenity is omnipotent, or close to it, within Sigil. She killed Aoskar, god of portals, in an instant.

It has nothing to do with laziness. The setting requires her to be omnipotent in order for Sigil to even function. As the nexus of all portals, Sigil is extremely valuable to anyone who could control it, and with the basic premise being that everything is connected to Planescape, there must be a way to stop other nigh-omnipotent beings from taking over. Within the Cage, the Lady of Pain rules.

[NichG]

Is the Immortal's Handbook the one with the hilariously useless Neutronium Golem?

Yeah, thats the one. It's also the one where by the top scales it has pretty much degenerated into a weird rock-paper-scissors match crossed with Go Fish:

A: 'Because of my ability, you lose access to your strongest ability!'
B: 'Well my ability does the same thing, so I remove your access to your ability that removes my ability!'
A: Uh... okay, okay, I have an Infinite Con from an ability. Unless you have an Infinite Str or some other Infinite damage source, all damage you do to me by definition adds up to less than my hitpoints.
B: Well I do have an Infinite Str, so they cancel!
A: Okay, then we fall back on our pre-infinity stats...

And so on.

[Eldan]

It is rather impossible to 'stat' omnipotence. Her Serenity is omnipotent, or close to it, within Sigil. She killed Aoskar, god of portals, in an instant.

It has nothing to do with laziness. The setting requires her to be omnipotent in order for Sigil to even function. As the nexus of all portals, Sigil is extremely valuable to anyone who could control it, and with the basic premise being that everything is connected to Planescape, there must be a way to stop other nigh-omnipotent beings from taking over. Within the Cage, the Lady of Pain rules.

Not necessarily: it's an important distinction, actually: she isn't necessarily omnipotent. In fact, I'd assume she isn't, since there's several long-running conspiracies against her she isn't stopping. Either she deems them no threat, or she can't find them. She can't see inside Harbinger House, that much is made clear in the adventure of the same name. Finally, we know gods can't enter Sigil. We don't know how powerful they would be inside it, or if the Lady could do anything to them safe keeping them out. It's not known how or if she killed Aoskar, only that he died.

[Taelas]

We know gods cannot enter Sigil because she specifically keeps them out. Gods have used stealth and trickery to enter Sigil before, until she threw them out.

Presumably she can do this to any deity of any power, since Sigil has not yet been taken over by an omnipotent evil deity from some obscure setting, which means she must at least be as omnipotent to bar them from entering (or Sigil itself imposes a limit on them, which amounts to the same thing, as it does not do the same for her).

Which is why I said she was either omnipotent, or close to it, at least within Sigil.

[Eldan]

Omnipotent is much too broad a term, I'd think. There's a difference between "can do whatever she wants" and "can effectively keep gods out".

[arguskos]

It's not known how or if she killed Aoskar, only that he died.
I believe it's actually confirmed that the Sword did indeed obliterate Aoskar and hurl his corpse into the Astral, because of Fell the Tattooist (who now walks on solid ground as punishment). She may or may not be omnipotent (great debate, by the by), but she definitely killed Aoskar (since he's pretty definitely dead and no one else stepped up to it).

[Eldan]

Well, the evidence points in that direction at least, yes. There is Aoskar's corpse on the Astral, full of blades, and a gigantic crater around the Shattered Temple, plus she has a reason.
So yes, it was probably her. But no one who saw it is still alive.

[Taelas]

Omnipotent is much too broad a term, I'd think. There's a difference between "can do whatever she wants" and "can effectively keep gods out".

I suppose it depends on whether Sigil dampens the abilities of Powers or not. If it does, she does not need to be omnipotent and can get by with simply being unaffected and extremely powerful. But if it does not, which is my opinion, as Aoskar was in Sigil for a very long time before Her Serenity killed him, then she must have nigh-ominpotence, otherwise a nigh-omnipotent Power would be able to stop her from making it leave.

Of course, you could simply claim that nothing in Planescape is truly omnipotent, but that feels like a cop-out.

[Eldan]

That doesn't need omnipotence. You can have the power "defeat god" without having the power to turn everyone's eyes green or turn all the roof tiles to ice cream.

[arguskos]

Well, the evidence points in that direction at least, yes. There is Aoskar's corpse on the Astral, full of blades, and a gigantic crater around the Shattered Temple, plus she has a reason.
So yes, it was probably her. But no one who saw it is still alive.
More that there is no other evidence beyond "The Lady killed him, so be chill about it, lest you be flayed over it, berk".

As to her omnipotence, I doubt it. D&D is famous for a complete LACK of omnipotence. Nothing is truly omnipotent in D&D (it could be argued that even beings like Ao, the Overfather, aren't omnipotent, since they don't interact with mortals, which could be understood as they can't do so). I'd hesitate to give the Lady that description, instead saying that she is the absolutely master of her domain, nothing more.

D&D is big on limited omnipotence (yeah yeah paradoxical phrase shaddup). Deities are all-powerful... in their domain and area of influence, nothing more. Same with Her Serenity.

[Taelas]

You cannot defeat something which has infinite power without having infinite power yourself.

Oh, I completely agree that the Lady's power only exists within Sigil. She is definitely limited in that aspect.

[arguskos]

You cannot defeat something which has infinite power without having infinite power yourself.
Nothing in D&D HAS infinite power. That's the point. They have areas of vast power, but nothing has true infinite ability like the Christian God (which I remind you, is the posterchild for omnipotence). Nothing in D&D comes anywhere NEAR that level of existence (only Ao really ever appears to be that powerful, but due to lack of data, may well not be).

[Eldan]

Really, I think that statting the Lady would shut down one of my most favourite parts of Planescape: crackpot theories about Her and Sigil:

Did you know that Sigil itself, like any bound space inside it, is a portal?
Did you know that if you dig down in Sigil, you never reach the bottom?
Did you know that there is in fact more than one Lady, but most of them are hiding underground?

:smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

You cannot defeat something which has infinite power without having infinite power yourself.

Oh, I completely agree that the Lady's power only exists within Sigil. She is definitely limited in that aspect.

Nothing in D&D HAS infinite power. The powers rule their own domains and stay within them; otherwise they would have wiped out everything of the opposing alignment already.

Arghhhhh Ninjaed!

[Taelas]

That's just not correct. The planes are infinite in circumference, for instance. The Spire is infinitely tall. The Abyss has infinite layers.

Also, by definition, Planescape encompasses all settings, which is infinite in itself. With infinite settings, there will be something somewhere with infinite power.

[arguskos]

Did you know that Sigil itself, like any bound space inside it, is a portal?
Now, that one I've not heard before. You just being a yarker, or is there some dark to this I don't carry?


Did you know that if you dig down in Sigil, you never reach the bottom?
And yet, if you dig from the bottom of the torus "upwards", you break into the city, or so I recall.

EDIT: And yet, Szar, there isn't. :smalltongue: One of the many paradoxes of Planescape. There is no omnipotent being on all the Wheel, or we'd know about it already.

[Tvtyrant]

Now, that one I've not heard before. You just being a yarker, or is there some dark to this I don't carry?


And yet, if you dig from the bottom of the torus "upwards", you break into the city, or so I recall.

EDIT: And yet, Szar, there isn't. :smalltongue: One of the many paradoxes of Planescape. There is no omnipotent being on all the Wheel, or we'd know about it already.

I think the real question is how would we know about a being that is omnipotent? It could achieve anything it wanted on a whim, so to desire something is to have it. It could make us all die, come back, do the hokey-pokey, sleep with Yugoloths, and other detestable acts of that nature and convince us it was our idea. You can stick one in if you want, but it would either reduce the game to "DM Fiat!" or make no difference.

[Eldan]

That's just not correct. The planes are infinite in circumference, for instance. The Spire is infinitely tall. The Abyss has infinite layers.

Also, by definition, Planescape encompasses all settings, which is infinite in itself. With infinite settings, there will be something somewhere with infinite power.

Infinite geographical size does not mean infinite power anywhere in it. In fact, it's pretty much a fallacy that infinite expanses have to contain everything. You could have an infinite void.

So, the multiverse, most likely, has a density of omnipotent creatures of 0. Zero density over infinite space still gives you 0 omnipotents.

[arguskos]

I think the real question is how would we know about a being that is omnipotent? It could achieve anything it wanted on a whim, so to desire something is to have it. It could make us all die, come back, do the hokey-pokey, sleep with Yugoloths, and other detestable acts of that nature and convince us it was our idea. You can stick one in if you want, but it would either reduce the game to "DM Fiat!" or make no difference.
Bingo! Omnipotence ruins settings, destroys free will, and makes a hash of philosophy. In a setting like Planescape, ruled by the idea that belief makes reality, not the other way around, true omnipotence is antithetical to everything the setting stands for, therefore it doesn't exist in the setting. :smallwink:

If you do things differently at your table, yay for you, I guess, but I wouldn't want to play at that table, where omnipotent beings run everything and your characters have no will or choice. Ain't my cup of tea.

[Tyndmyr]

The problem with this is that players can and will read anything published. Leaving things unspecified gives the DM room to have mysteries, etc, without some player going 'but such and such a book says that ...'. Granted you can always say 'this is my version of the setting, don't believe everything you read' but it tends to bias player reactions to information.

Eh, possible. But basically, it's not really any different than if the DM just homebrews it. Because, realistically, that's what he's going to have to do anyway. I would prefer if the decision of if to homebrew or not is left to the DM. After all, they always CAN homebrew. Nothing can really prevent that. But if you leave iconic NPCs unstatted, now the DM has to get his hands dirty.

And some DMs would just rather not do that, or are bad at doing that.


The other issue is that some things work better if they're statted in a way that is inconsistent with how D&D works. You can see the breaks start to form in things like Deities and Demigods, where the designers decided 'okay, some gods should just be able to do crap without it being tabulated, lets just make a catch-all ability like Alter Reality'. If you don't do that, and decide to 'really stat it out for how powerful it needs to be' you end up with stuff like the Immortals Handbook, where what does it matter since there's no way the party will ever approach that scale.

That's cool. I don't specify exactly how they should be statted, merely that they should be. As long as it makes the interactions between PCs and them defined in some fashion, I can work with that.


I mean, if I said: Lady of Pain, 20000HD Outsider, Divine Rank 930, blah blah blah, is that really better than just saying 'Lady of Pain: A mystery, she rules over Sigil and will Maze or Flay those who threaten it or who try to worship her'?

See, that's just lazy statting. I know throwing ridiculous numbers at things is a thing that's been done plenty in D&D, but it's a poor way to represent a character. It's far more interesting to have her abilities mesh well with how she is portrayed in fluff. For instance, abilities that provided clues as to why she remains in Sigil would be much more fantastic than adding another 0 behind her HD.

[Eldan]

Hmm.

Theory:

You can be omnipotent if every sapient creature in the setting believes you are.

As long as at least someone thinks you aren't, you aren't.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, that works in Planescape.

[Taelas]

Infinite geographical size does not mean infinite power anywhere in it. In fact, it's pretty much a fallacy that infinite expanses have to contain everything. You could have an infinite void.

So, the multiverse, most likely, has a density of omnipotent creatures of 0. Zero density over infinite space still gives you 0 omnipotents.
Okay, yes, you're right, though I disagree slightly with your wording. An infinite expanse would by necessity have to contain everything that exists within it, otherwise it would not be infinite. But it does not have to contain something which does not exist.

But Planescape is not merely infinite in one reality. It is an infinite multiverse, with all realities connected to it. Your 'density of 0' is demonstrably false. There are omnipotent beings in many stories and Planescape incorporates them. The simplest way would be to point to a setting where the Christian God exists as an omnipotent being -- and due to the basic premise behind Planescape, that deity exists within it.

I can accept the premise that an omnipotent being would only be omnipotent in his own reality, however, and I concede that the Lady does not need omnipotence after all.

[Eldan]

Ah, but Planescape also includes the very real possibility that stories can be wrong.

And we probably shouldn't discuss Christian religion.

[Tyndmyr]

Okay, yes, you're right, though I disagree slightly with your wording. An infinite expanse would by necessity have to contain everything that exists within it, otherwise it would not be infinite. But it does not have to contain something which does not exist.

Not at all. An infinite expanse only means that it is never ending, not that it contains everything.

However, infinity is a very, very screwy thing. It brings up all kinds of practical problems like "how do you ever find something on an infinite plane?". Let alone how a person could possibly rule an inhabited infinite plane. It's infinite. Assuming a finite transmission speed of information, there is an infinite number of inhabitants that do not even know you exist.

Personally, I like to scrap everything that uses the word infinity anywhere in D&D. It's usually for the best.

[Eldan]

How do you find anything on an infinite plain? Well, no one's walking, that's for sure. They either use planeshift or just a portal to the right place.

Most planes are basically infinite expanses of uncharted terrain with a few tiny spots that have either more or less stable portals to Sigil or communities of reliable spellcasters. And I like it that way.

[Frozen_Feet]

My answer to the title: there is no reason not to stat all elements you're going to use. Guidelines for how things work make running a game easier than not having them.

Anything you could achieve by not statting one element or another is better achieved by just not telling those stats to the players, as it still has the convenience of having the guidelines at hand if you need them.

Note that my definition of "statting" something is highly abstract - it does not necessarily involve distinct mechanics at all, it could just be word description of how a thing works. But within tabletop RPGs, words are everything. If you do not intentionally separate fluff and crunch, fluff is crunch.

Of course, if you're not going to use an element, statting it is often waste of time. In those cases, however, it's good to define specifics of the game so that those elements are unreachable as well. For example: if you don't want players to visit other planes, don't give them Plane Shift. Don't give players freedoms you don't want them to have.

[Alleran]

Nothing is truly omnipotent in D&D (it could be argued that even beings like Ao, the Overfather, aren't omnipotent, since they don't interact with mortals, which could be understood as they can't do so).
Ao has complete control over Realmspace. Even if you're an overdeity from somewhere else, once you step into his domain you have to play by his rules. Additionally, however, he has a superior, the one who gave him his assignment (read: creation and maintenance of the crystal sphere encompassing Toril), who is also "more" than he is. It was described as a being infinitely more vast than Ao was.

And yes, Ao does interact with mortals. He's spoken face to face with Elminster, and addressed mortals when he manifested at the end of the Time of Troubles.

[NichG]

See, that's just lazy statting. I know throwing ridiculous numbers at things is a thing that's been done plenty in D&D, but it's a poor way to represent a character. It's far more interesting to have her abilities mesh well with how she is portrayed in fluff. For instance, abilities that provided clues as to why she remains in Sigil would be much more fantastic than adding another 0 behind her HD.

So in fairness I should probably say that I did run a campaign where the mystery of the Lady was solved (at least for that campaign) by the PCs. The Lady was a manifestation of the underlying connection between Belief and Observation (in the quantum mechanical sense) giving rise to consciousness external to the universe.

Basically, if you imagine that there are huge numbers of possible ways things could go, and then imagine that only those that are 'observed' can have influence, then there can be interactions between 'observed' universes. Once you have that, you could have those interactions give rise to sentience. Belief is a universe's tendency to continue observing itself once observed. Therefore, if you're a being that relies on the fluidity of observation, belief is like someone sticking an electrode into your brain and trying to make it do something. As such, the Lady took care to only observe histories in which people do not direct belief towards her (for long). Sigil was a fragment of spacetime that could be associated with various different universe-lines due to its portal structure, and was basically the Lady's external senses. This also explained her abilities over time (since she existed as an entity external to time).

Note that I didn't actually detail any of this, it just sort of ended up making perfect sense based on how the rest of the campaign had gone, and the players had a moment of revelation of 'oh wow, I know what the Lady is now!', so I went with it.

I'm curious now how you would stat that?

[Ravens_cry]

You don't. You're either going to have very silly numbers, Immortality handbook I am looking at you, or players will find some way to beat your unbeatable and the setting collapses on it's ears. Those are not mutually exclusive by the way. There is technically a third and fourth possibility, they lose or don't fight it, but if so, why did you need to statistics in the first place?

[Taelas]

Not at all. An infinite expanse only means that it is never ending, not that it contains everything.
Allow me to clarify. I was speaking in general terms regarding infinite expanses, and not the D&D universe. If an expanse is infinite, then everything that exists on the same plane of reality will exist within it. If something exists outside of it, then it is not infinite. In D&D, this is not a problem due to the cosmology of the planes.


However, infinity is a very, very screwy thing. It brings up all kinds of practical problems like "how do you ever find something on an infinite plane?". Let alone how a person could possibly rule an inhabited infinite plane. It's infinite. Assuming a finite transmission speed of information, there is an infinite number of inhabitants that do not even know you exist.
The same way you find anything else anywhere else. You use landmarks. The Spire is infinitely tall and can be seen from anywhere in the Outlands.

[NichG]

Allow me to clarify. I was speaking in general terms regarding infinite expanses, and not the D&D universe. If an expanse is infinite, then everything that exists on the same plane of reality will exist within it. If something exists outside of it, then it is not infinite. In D&D, this is not a problem due to the cosmology of the planes.

The same way you find anything else anywhere else. You use landmarks. The Spire is infinitely tall and can be seen from anywhere in the Outlands.

I tend to run the infinite expanses of the planes sort of like travel between shadows in Amber. The distance between two locations in an infinite plane is not the physical distance - you could never get anywhere. It is instead the perceptual and existential difference between the two locations. So if you're traveling from e.g. the Smoke-end of the Plane of Air to the Lightning-end, you're traveling -10 degrees in temperature, minus a lot of smoky smells but plus an ozone smell, higher in wind-speed, and lower in pressure. As you travel, these things change gradually.

There are a couple consequences of this: if you're in view of something local, you can't actually dissociate yourself from the local conditions because it'd cause a distance paradox. Additionally, travel is faster if you have someone who knows both end-points, and slower if you're very perceptive and don't know the end-points (because your own perceptions tend to misdirect the travel or pin you down). Random encounters are therefore not random collisions (since that would be impossible) - instead, its the result of things that are specifically hunting for anomalies in the infinity.

[Eldan]

Yes, actually, that's often even described similarly to that in the books.

Well, not on the inner planes so much. They are much less influenced by belief. But things can be screwy on the outer planes.

It always takes 4d6 (I think it was) days to travel from anywhere on the Outlands to anywhere else that is beyond the current horizon.

[NichG]

Well, not on the inner planes so much. They are much less influenced by belief. But things can be screwy on the outer planes.


Another way to think of it is that you can have an infinite plane that contains only a finite number of 'interesting' locations, or at least a different order of infinity. Sort of the way that the integers are infinite, but there are only 5 integers that correspond to the number of sides allowed for a platonic solid in 3D (there are better examples I'm sure). 'Interesting' locations then tend to be the ones that accumulate portals, and form interconnections between eachother, so thats where you tend to go.

[Analytica]

I think I know how to take the Lady down, actually.

Make the Primes worship her. Perhaps worshippers do not necessarily make one a Power, but she verges on it all the time. Moreover, she actively and strongly opposes this. If they did worship her, she would become a Power - and outside Sigil, she has no direct reach, so she could not stop this (unless she actually became a power, so moment 22).

Once she was a Power, even temporarily, she would be defined. Her Rank would be defined, and by that, finite. At that point she would be vulnerable to attacks from higher ranking Powers, and could be defeated.

YMMV.

[danzibr]

Use manifolds.

[danzibr]

Anyone try statting Chuck Norris?

[Asheram]

What purpose does Sigil have then? If you refer to Manual of the planes the closest thing I can imagine is a naturally formed "Common ground" for anyone but gods, and a keeper for it.

[Eldan]

Pretty much that. The planes are infinite, and everyone who can planeshift, i.e. outsiders, is at war with everyone else who can do the same. Mortals have the choice of walking from plane to plane, which can take lifetimes, or going through Sigil. In Sigil, war is not allowed, and everyone can meet and travel everywhere else. It's the common ground that allows the mortal planar races to meet in piece, mingle with the outsiders, and travel elsewhere.

[Asheram]

Pretty much that. The planes are infinite, and everyone who can planeshift, i.e. outsiders, is at war with everyone else who can do the same. Mortals have the choice of walking from plane to plane, which can take lifetimes, or going through Sigil. In Sigil, war is not allowed, and everyone can meet and travel everywhere else. It's the common ground that allows the mortal planar races to meet in piece, mingle with the outsiders, and travel elsewhere.

So, I suppose the big question is; Is it naturally formed, or is it built?

[Eldan]

And the big answer is: perhaps.

That's one of the important things about Planescape: it does not give answers to questions like that. It lists theories. Several, usually. And fans keep on adding more.