REALISTIC Challenge Ratings for NPCs?

[Rhaegar14]

Hey guys. I'm running a 3.5 campaign for a bunch of my college buddies. There's six characters in the party, so I'm considering them one level higher than they are to compensate for this.

Now, the main baddies in the campaign are dragons. But once in a while, I like to throw an NPC at them. But every time I throw a "level-appropriate" NPC enemy at them (because according to the sourcebooks, an NPC's CR is equal to his/her level) aforementioned NPC melts in two rounds, tops. Even the warrior-types.

So basically, I'm looking for a more experienced DM to tell me if there's a better guideline, because I'm sick of putting together stat blocks for enemies that go down so fast that they're no more memorable than fodder. XD

P.S. If you want to look at party comp and be like "this is why": We have a Barbarian 6 / Frenzied Berserker 2, Rogue 5 / Treasure Hunter 3, Ranger 8 (Archery feats), Druid 8, Soulknife 8, and Wizard 5 / Mage of the Arcane Order 3 (though the last just joined). In general, the Ranger and Rogue contribute very little to combat (the former because he's built poorly; no Str bonus = very little damage, and the latter because he's optimized towards utility out of combat).

[dob]

You say "an NPC". That might be part of the problem right there. 6 PCs gets 6 times the actions that 1 NPC does. If the DMG and MM encounter guidelines are balanced assuming 4 PCs, which they're not, but assuming they are, your PCs are getting 50% more actions per enemy action than assumed. That suggests you need to crank up the EL/CR more than just 1 to compensate. Better yet: scale out rather than scaling up. Rather than one tough enemy, it's more interesting to face an array of enemies.

When I design encounters, I always guesstimate balance rather than going by the book. I usually have a small number of opponents with class levels, within a level or two of the party depending on how tough the opponents are supposed to be, then a small number of squads of mooks to run interference for them. I tend to keep the character opponents as tough as I had 'em written, but I'll adjust the hp, attack bonuses, and save dcs of the mooks as needed to keep the encounter interesting.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

For a single by-the-book NPC to be a challenge he's going to have to threaten to wipe the party, because he's not going to have the HP or other defenses to stand up to that action economy disparity. I agree with dob; increase the number of enemies, or at least give the NPC some environmental conditions he can use to limit the actions of the PCs.

[Rhaegar14]

Alright, thanks for your input guys.

[Ernir]

NPCs have worse equipment, often worse ability scores, and a human that is severely distracted managing the rest of the game guiding its actions. Assuming equally powerful classes and similar levels of optimization on behalf of the players and DM, an equal-level NPC is just going to be a speedbump for a team of 4 PCs.

That being said, CRs aren't much about threats, they're about resource expenditure. An NPC that gets splattered in 2 rounds but caused the Wizard to cast a high-level spell or two, and the Barbarian to Rage - well, he did his job just fine. So their CR may be more or less OK, even if the actual threat they posed was minimal.

Poorly built NPCs or NPCs of weak classes may struggle to accomplish even that. As may NPCs fighting in suboptimal conditions. (Hint: A fight that begins with all party members within striking distance of the NPC means the NPC is going to win initiative or be buried in a pile of attacks.)

The biggest problem I see with PCs fighting NPCs is that even though NPCs have very little equipment compared to the PCs, they still have more than monsters. =/

[Tvtyrant]

What? An NPC's CR is HALF their character level, not equal to it. You should be sending a level 16 NPC at them, not a level 8. Preferably a level 16 Adept that has buffed itself with a 15 HD polymorph and Stoneskin and melee pounds on them.

[Delusion]

What? An NPC's CR is HALF their character level, not equal to it. You should be sending a level 16 NPC at them, not a level 8. Preferably a level 16 Adept that has buffed itself with a 15 HD polymorph and Stoneskin and melee pounds on them.

Isn't that specific npc classes though?

[Ernir]

What? An NPC's CR is HALF their character level, not equal to it. You should be sending a level 16 NPC at them, not a level 8. Preferably a level 16 Adept that has buffed itself with a 15 HD polymorph and Stoneskin and melee pounds on them.

That's actually a good point. NPC classes allow you to inflate the NPC's HD, while maintaining an appropriate CR.

[Rhaegar14]

What? An NPC's CR is HALF their character level, not equal to it. You should be sending a level 16 NPC at them, not a level 8. Preferably a level 16 Adept that has buffed itself with a 15 HD polymorph and Stoneskin and melee pounds on them.

DMG 37:

"An NPC with a PC class has a Challenge Rating equal to the NPC's level."

[Tvtyrant]

Isn't that specific npc classes though?

Oh, we were just talking about NPCs in general? In that case I would suggest you make them at least 3 levels higher then the party/make them extremely optimized/broken. Thrall of Jubilex that spends its time constantly in Aboleth/cryohydra form and summons jellies and demons at you, Malconvokers and Initiate of the Seven Colored Veil and Ur-Priest/Swordsage/Jade Phoenix Knight. Things with pizazz like gestalts.

[Rhaegar14]

Alright, I really appreciate all the input, but I learn better by example. Below is the stat block for the next NPC they're going to fight, complete with tactics. Specific suggestions and comments would be wonderful.

Cultist Leader
Medium Humanoid / Human Sorcerer 9
HP 45
Init +2
Spd 30 ft.
AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 16
Base Atk +4, Grp +3
Atk +3 melee (1d4-1/19-20, dagger), or +7 ranged (1d8/19-20, light crossbow)
SV Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +7
AL TN
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 17

Skills & Feats: Spellcraft +12, Concentration +18, Knowledge (Arcana) +12; Spell Focus (Illusion), Combat Casting, Sudden Widen, Sudden Maximize, Improved Toughness
Familiar: Toad.
Noteworthy Possessions: Dragondodger Chain Shirt of Mobility +1, Tunic of Steady Spellcasting, Storm Gauntlets.

Spells Per Day: 6/7/7/7/4

Spells Known: 8/5/4/3/2

- 1st – Magic Missile, Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Burning Hands, Comprehend Languages
- 2nd – Mirror Image, Blur, Alter Self, Protection From Arrows
- 3rd – Fly, Major Image, Suggestion
- 4th – Greater Invisibility, Shadow Conjuration

Storm Gauntlets: 4 charges/day. 1 charge: Shocking Grasp; 2 charges: Lightning Bolt; 4 charges: Lightning Sphere (as Flaming Sphere, but electric and four of them). Caster Level 9th.

Tactics: If given time to prepare, this guy is an absolute bastard. He’s got Shield, Protection From Arrows, Fly, Blur, Expeditious Retreat and Greater Invisibility up when the PCs go after him. In battle, he primarily uses Magic Missiles, Suggestions, and Shadow Conjurations. If they get rid of his Invisibility, he will beeline for the main chamber to make use of his superior mobility.

Other Notes: He is most certainly prepared (the loud sounds of the PCs killing off his underlings has him informed) and he's backed up by a Barbed Devil. His Storm Gauntlets, Chain Shirt, and Tunic are all intended as loot for the PCs and are more-or-less going to stay where they are.

[Ernir]

He's being accompanied by a Barbed Devil? Spiky death time. :smalltongue:
It can Teleport. Don't forget about it.

On tactics: He's not going to do anything but get splattered across the walls if they either get him visible or on to the ground. So his job is going to be making sure they don't do that. Probably by picking on those that look like they could do it (read: picking on the spellcasters).

On spell selection: Magic Missiles and Shadow Conjurations do not a good offensive make. May I suggest Black Tentacles instead of the Shadow Conjuration? It could be preeetty brutal with that Sudden Widen.
Depending on your splatbook availability, Alter Self makes Fly semi-redundant thanks to the stupid Avariel (Races of Faerûn). Otherwise, you can use it to get some natural armor or something (the Troglodyte is in MM1).
Protection from Arrows is more or less useless. If he knows what kind of tactics the Ranger uses, he could be packing a scroll or potion, though. Otherwise, uh, Glitterdust?
He should have Mage armor up. You could switch out Comprehend Languages or Burning Hands.
Do you have a plan for Major Image? You could have the Barbed Devil use it for you, and learn something else instead.

On feats: Do you have a plan for Sudden Maximize or (if you don't switch to Black Tentacles) Sudden Widen?
Combat Casting is generally regarded as a bad feat.
Book availability matters a lot here, actually. What is in use at your table?

[Pigkappa]

If you want to scare them off, give him Fireball losing Major Image or Suggestion and start the fight with a maximized Fireball. This might even send someone in the negatives. If this can kill them with one hit, maybe you can make it empowered instead of maximized since dying even before taking an action isn't very fun.

That sorcerer's spell selection is missing some good damage output in my opinion. It could work nice in a party, but he's alone.

[Runestar]

Based on my own observations, I would go with cr = 2/3 class lvs for non-casters, then adjust treasure for the new cr. So for example, a human barbarian18 would be cr12, coupled with npc gear appropriate for a cr12 npc.

Spellcasters are trickier. Their spells are powerful, but this is mitigated by their crap hp. I would recommend making judicious use of non-associated class lv rules, combining tons of racial HD with high con to inflate their hp and make them less fragile.

So instead of a human sorc9, you may want a yuanti pureblood sorc8. Same cr, you lose 1 lv of sorc spellcasting, but get better defenses and stats overall. Plus, with practiced spellcaster, its caster lv is cranked up to 12. :smallamused:

Let's see, str8, dex16, con14, int14, wis10, cha18, hp 62 (4d8+8d4+24). Consider giving it more hp with improved toughness, endurance spell, perhaps a toad familiar and maybe even sources of temp hp such as false life or necklace of tears (MIC). This way, it won't get one-shotted by the first PC who wins initiative.

Also, wotc has a trend for creating monsters with innate spellcasting, whose cr is 1 lower than the npc equivalent. For example, a psionic mindflayer is cr8, and manifests as a psion9 (cr9 by the book). So your sorc9 could arguably be cr8.

This basically means no humanoid caster npcs. :smalltongue:

[AslanCross]

Whenever I use NPCs in combat, I typically have them at the same level as the PCs, then throw in a few low-level minions to screen for them. Of course this results in an encounter level higher than that of the PCs, but that's usually the idea anyway.

[Rhaegar14]

The following notes are in no particular order.

@Runestar: That doesn't work because of the campaign background; humans are the only race in the world with access to arcane magic. Not as in means to learn it, as in it is quite literally impossible for any of the others to use it. It's a fairly major, and thus non-negotiable, plot point.

On Sudden Widen / Maximize: No "plans" for either, I just generally suck at picking good feats for spellcasters that aren't metamagic. XD

Mage Armor is not included on his spell list because I'm pretty sure armor bonuses do not stack and he's wearing a mithral chain shirt (already giving him +5).

I am pretty much using any book that I can get my hands on, because I use online pdfs. The books that I currently have on my hard drive and I more-or-less know the contents of are as follows:


Core books (duh)
Psionics Handbook
Tome of Battle (no implemented content yet, however)
Complete Adventurer, Arcane, Warrior, Mage, Champion, Divine, Scoundrel, Psionic, etc.
Races of the Dragon
Miniatures Handbook
Libris Mortis
Exemplars of Evil (admittedly low on statistical content, though)
Heroes of Battle
Draconomicon
Player's Handbook II
Dragon Magic
Tome of Magic
Weapons of Legacy (fun stuff in here, but not really relevant to the subject)
Magic Item Compendium
Spell Compendium
Unearthed Arcana

Shadow Conjuration: While admittedly this would work a lot better if I bumped him up a level and gave him Shadow Evocation (something I've been considering), the Illusion (Shadow) spells are something I bumped into recently, and I honestly think they look really cool and I've been wanting to experiment with them. But I do agree his offensive capability is lackluster.

Major Image: I was planning on having him start the fight being essentially nowhere to be found (might need to give him Sudden Silent for this), but projecting an illusion of a huge wave of cultists centered around the Barbed Devil. At worst, this gets the Wizard to use the second of his two fireballs for the day.

Alter Self: Elves cannot cast arcane magic in my campaign world. See above note to Runestar. Thus, I would rather steer clear of having him shift to an Avariel; otherwise, I would probably have to come up with some explanation for why the shapeshifted Human can cast as an Elf, but the native Elf cannot. Plus, I don't know if Avariel "exist" yet, so to speak.

*edit* Glitterdust: Umm, one of his main defenses is being invisible... I'm pretty sure this spell undermines that.

[Runestar]

At any rate, you will want to look at making your npc tougher (either by giving him some mook tanks and/or extra hp). All the spells in the world means nuts when he doesn't last long enough to cast them.

I see you are using the elite npc array. Move 1 point from cha to con to improve it to 14, granting 9 extra hp.

His suggested tactics also don't really lend well to crowd control. You will want some AoE effects such as fireball, slow or stinking cloud to disable as many PCs as possible, to prevent them to gang-tackling you. If positioning is a problem, consider sculpt spell.

Consider summons to occupy the players. For example, summon monster 3 brings in a huge centipede, which can grapple one of the PCs.

Suggestions:
Already in place: mage armour, empowered false life (given their long duration)

Prior to battle: shield, greater invis. If you can time it right, summon a huge centipede from a scroll of SM3 just as the PCs enter.

At the start: nerveskitter+improved initiative+14dex gives +11 initiative, giving you a fairly good chance of going first. Fire off one of your AoE control spells (stinking cloud/black tentacles). Then slowly pick them off with damage spells.

[Canarr]

NPCs with the party's level in CR aren't meant to be more than a distraction; something to blow a few spells and HPs on (I think someone already called them speedbumps). For larger encounters - someone like the sorcerer you've listed - I usually go 2-4 points above the party level on ECL. In case of a caster, preferably by adding some minions to keep the party away from the boss.

In your encounter, it seems to me that the Barbed Devil is actually the bigger threat to the PCs; CR 11 vs. CR 9 for the sorcerer. Depends a bit on the alignment composition of your PCs; how effective are unholy blight and order's wrath going to be against them? In my group, CG and CN are the most common alignments, so my PCs would be heavily hit; daze 'em first, then sicken 'em, and 5d8 of damage, twice, is nothing to sneer at on lvl 8, either.

Of course, if you've got a lot of lawful, neutral, and/or evil types, it's not gonna be quite as effective...

[Keld Denar]

A dirty trick I learned from the authors in Living Greyhawk was to slap a single level of Warrior (the NPC class) on everything. This doesn't affect CR at all and gives some extra HP at least, and sometimes an extra feat or stat bump depending on level. It's purely a nuts and bolts thing, but it works for giving a boost in survivability without a dramatic increase in potency.

[Pigkappa]

You don't really have to follow the rules anyway. If you want to give him a bonus feat, a few more HPs and a +5 Initiative bonus you can do so.

[true_shinken]

Dude, give this Sorcerer Wings of Cover ASAP.