Zz'dtri will die soon...

[Ancalagon]

... simply because "Parody is protected speech" as long as it's a short moment of parody.

He/She cannot turn into a recurring villian or important (side) character so I fear s/he is doomed to last only a few strips. Goodbye again.

Or will s/he stick around for longer? Can he even stick around for longer?

[SPoD]

The thing is, he's not really a parody anymore. He has no scimitars with him. His name being an anagram is not actually enough to be a violation. So as long as he doesn't slip back into any behavior that suggest a parody of Driz'zit, he can stick around as long as he wants.

[Ninjaman]

For some reason i think he came back to stay. Actually at firsti did not really like him, but since his return i like him way better.

[HalfDragonCube]

I hope Zz'dtri lives, they deserve to be a recurring villain.

Plus, doesn't everyone, deep inside, root for the dark elf mage?:

[Ancalagon]

doesn't everyone, deep inside, root for the dark elf mage?:

No. I find dark elves relatively stupid and boring. Never got what poeple saw in small, spindly elves. Ok, females I can understand with some thinking (but only when I throw cha 16+ at them)... but male dark elves are small, thin figures that are far from what I consider "cool". So... no. ;)

Drizzt was never something I found interesting at all. Totally escaped me.

[Ninjaman]

No. I find dark elves relatively stupid and boring. Never got what poeple saw in small, spindly elves. Ok, females I can understand with some thinking (but only when I throw cha 16+ at them)... but male dark elves are small, thin figures that are far from what I consider "cool". So... no. ;)

Drizzt was never something I found interesting at all. Totally escaped me.

:smalleek:
*Gathers my warhammer Wood Elves army*
Charge

[Ancalagon]

:smalleek:
*Gathers my warhammer Wood Elves army*
Charge

No, really. Elves in D&D are smaller than humans (do not compare to Tolkien!) and dark elves are even smaller and thinner (FRCS says so). And elves are like 1.40 m to 1,70m.

So you have slim, skinny 1,30 to 1,60 meter high semi-halflings with white hair and dark skin. Wow, how... impressive. Not. Really, that drow chick from deviantart is NOT what Drow actually look like.
While I still can imagine some mean drow-priestess, I totally fail to see male drow warriors as the cool, fearsome feos they are made to be.

Dangerous? Sure. But anything that I look at and think "cool" (like... Darth Vader)... no.

I put Drow in the same category as Halflings. In case I just destroyed some image of cool, impressive drow fighters - I apologise. But I did not write that source material and what you thought drow were is not what the books say they are.

Now, get your pimped-up Drizzt-fantasy off my lawn. :smalltongue:

[HalfDragonCube]

No. I find dark elves relatively stupid and boring. Never got what poeple saw in small, spindly elves. Ok, females I can understand with some thinking (but only when I throw cha 16+ at them)... but male dark elves are small, thin figures that are far from what I consider "cool". So... no. ;)

Drizzt was never something I found interesting at all. Totally escaped me.

... Relative to what?

[NerfTW]

... simply because "Parody is protected speech" as long as it's a short moment of parody.

He/She cannot turn into a recurring villian or important (side) character so I fear s/he is doomed to last only a few strips. Goodbye again.

Or will s/he stick around for longer? Can he even stick around for longer?

There was no legal complaint about him. He isn't really a violation no matter how long he stays in the comic. That's just a joke and a punchline giving a reason for his return, not a serious statement of some legal wrangling allowing him back in the comic. He's back because he was an unexpected surprise return that nobody thought would happen.


Also ""Parody is protected speech" as long as it's a short moment of parody." is completely inaccurate.

[Ancalagon]

... Relative to what?

Relative to something that is "interesting". Or "the other things in these books". Or "from all the things you can play or face, drow are amongs the more pale" (pun intended).

Playing some drow society (as foes, for example, or as minefield the player have to interact with) can be an awesome campaign, but "drow" itself are nothing exotic or tempting or the "interesting thing many people seem to perceive them to be". All imo, of course.

[Ancalagon]

Also ""Parody is protected speech" as long as it's a short moment of parody." is completely inaccurate.

That's why I asked (the question was actually a serious one). I'm not from the US and do not really care for their copyright laws in regard to published works.

What I got from the Giant's comments in the book where Zz'dtri appeared is that he could use copyrighted material as long as it was for parody - which only is a short use.

Now, is Zz'dtri far enough from Drizzt? Even if it is explicitly stated in comic whom he is supposed to parody? Is the case clear enough to sell comic books without having to fear any sort of legal action?

I do not know. Do you for sure?

[Ninjaman]

No, really. Elves in D&D are smaller than humans (do not compare to Tolkien!) and dark elves are even smaller and thinner (FRCS says so). And elves are like 1.40 m to 1,70m.

So you have slim, skinny 1,30 to 1,60 meter high semi-halflings with white hair and dark skin. Wow, how... impressive. Not. Really, that drow chick from deviantart is NOT what Drow actually look like.
While I still can imagine some mean drow-priestess, I totally fail to see male drow warriors as the cool, fearsome feos they are made to be.

Dangerous? Sure. But anything that I look at and think "cool" (like... Darth Vader)... no.

I put Drow in the same category as Halflings. In case I just destroyed some image of cool, impressive drow fighters - I apologise. But I did not write that source material and what you thought drow were is not what the books say they are.

Now, get your pimped-up Drizzt-fantasy off my lawn. :smalltongue:

D&D elves? Well that is totaly different. I agree with you that D&D elves aren´t cool, one of the cool things about the elves is their hight (which also represents sepurity over the humans). Low elves are just... sad.

[Flame of Anor]

For some reason i think he came back to stay. Actually at firsti did not really like him, but since his return i like him way better.

Yes, I'm not sure what it is--but he was an okay character then, and by coming back after so long he is suddenly awesome. I can't explain it, but I'm suddenly a Zz'dtri fan... :smallbiggrin:


Plus, doesn't everyone, deep inside, root for the dark elf mage?:

That might be why.



I put Drow in the same category as Halflings. In case I just destroyed some image of cool, impressive drow fighters - I apologise. But I did not write that source material and what you thought drow were is not what the books say they are.

No need to apologize--your saying drow are boring doesn't make it so! :smallwink: I'll just have adventures over here with Drizzt and Jarlaxle while you sulk with your halflings, mkay?

[hamishspence]

Faerun elves (except drow) are comparable in height to humans.

In the Drizzt novel Siege of Darkness, there is a tall, strong (but not too bright) drow weapon master.

[Ancalagon]

No need to apologize--your saying drow are boring doesn't make it so! :smallwink: I'll just have adventures over here with Drizzt and Jarlaxle while you sulk with your halflings, mkay?

Ah, I don't apologise, I only explain.

Halflings as well as drow are nasty anclebiters! Hurray! :smallbiggrin:

[Ninjaman]

Faerun elves (except drow) are comparable in height to humans.

In the Drizzt novel Siege of Darkness, there is a tall, strong (but not too bright) drow weapon master.

If you ask wikipedia they are Slightly shorter than the average human
First sentense of physique (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons))

[hamishspence]

That's elves in the "default" 3.0-3.5 world.

In other D&D worlds, they may vary from this.

[Ninjaman]

That's elves in the "default" 3.0-3.5 world.

In other D&D worlds, they may vary from this.

But when we were just talking elves it is in the "default" setting, or at least that´s how i understood it.

[hamishspence]

The point being that while Dark Elves are "smaller and thinner" than Faerun elves, they're pretty comparable to standard elves.

The average Dark Elf will be shorter than the average human- but it's not a huge gap.

[ThePhantasm]

I'm kind of expecting V to hand Zz'ditri's butt to him. Maybe I'm wrong, but V should be significantly more powerful at this point, and should have good spells ready too, unlike their last encounter. Add Elan in there to shake things up, and unless other LGers show up soon, Zz'ditri should be toast.

[martianmister]

To be fair, he never was a Drizzt Do'urden parody in the first place. He was a parody about DnD players with drow characters who are "chaotic good rebels, yearning to throw off the reputation of their evil kin" Drizzt clones). Real Zz'dtri's personality isn't even matches with this character...

[hamishspence]

male dark elves are small, thin figures that are far from what I consider "cool".

Tall male drow:

"Standing near six feet, with a muscled torso that weighed close to two hundred pounds, Uthegental was the largest dark elf in Menzoberranzan"

[Ancalagon]

I'm kind of expecting V to hand Zz'ditri's butt to him. Maybe I'm wrong, but V should be significantly more powerful at this point, and should have good spells ready too, unlike their last encounter. Add Elan in there to shake things up, and unless other LGers show up soon, Zz'ditri should be toast.

In addition, Vaarsuvius should have learned something about the "most effective use of resources".

"Blast at the enemy and hope to overcome him" was yesterday. If there was SOMETHING learned from the fight with slaughter by Xykon, Vaarsuvius should not attempt this again.


"Standing near six feet, with a muscled torso that weighed close to two hundred pounds, Uthegental was the largest dark elf in Menzoberranzan"

Thanks, I paid attention in my statistics-classes. On example does not overrule the general rule explicitly stated in the rulebooks.
Also, for every drow that like a foot taller than he SHOULD be there also must be someone a foot smaller than he should be. So it levels out and the average is again where the rulebooks put them.

[hamishspence]

Also, for every drow that like a foot taller than he SHOULD be there also must be someone a foot smaller than he should be. So it levels out and the average is again where the rulebooks put them.

True- SiNafay Hun'ett was pretty small:

"She stood barely four feet high and weighed, by Alton's estimation, no more than fifty pounds".

Some drow have more style than others though- like the previously mentioned Jarlaxle.

[Andre]

"Also, his popularity has waned"

Guess who it refers to.

[G-Man Graves]

I'm kind of expecting V to hand Zz'ditri's butt to him. Maybe I'm wrong, but V should be significantly more powerful at this point, and should have good spells ready too, unlike their last encounter. Add Elan in there to shake things up, and unless other LGers show up soon, Zz'ditri should be toast.

Um, what? He's a personal enemy. He's always going to be the same level, if not higher. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html)

[ThePhantasm]

Um, what? He's a personal enemy. He's always going to be the same level, if not higher. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html)

Is he really a personal enemy? I mean, I know they are opposites, but they haven't had a long-running rivalry like Haley and Crystal. Haley and Crystal have history together, but this is only the second time that V and Z have even met. Seems more like a recurring encounter than a personal enemy.

[King of Nowhere]

I'm kind of expecting V to hand Zz'ditri's butt to him. Maybe I'm wrong, but V should be significantly more powerful at this point, and should have good spells ready too, unlike their last encounter. Add Elan in there to shake things up, and unless other LGers show up soon, Zz'ditri should be toast.

Zzd'tri shouldd be in a position of advantage.
Being a personal rival he's the same level as V, but he had a chance of casting a few buff/protection spells before the figth begun, while V didn't, so that should favor the dark elf.
Also, haley is petrified, roy and belkar are unavailable, Durkon is away. The rest of the guild must be somewhere, and if nale and sabine show up, i doubt elan andd v can stop them all.

Really, leaving the balcony was a really dumb move from haley. While they were there, tarquin would have surely sided with them against nale. It's not like there was anything secret they needed to discuss, tarquin already knows nale tried to kill elan (elan mentioned being stabbed in the liver), so they could discuss about it in front of him.
Instead they had to go in aa secluded place, without much protection (without even drawing weapons or preparing to figth) just to be better snuck upon. If they were a videogame, I'd be all writing "omg noob feeder" at them.

[Spirited Charge]

For some reason i think he came back to stay. Actually at firsti did not really like him, but since his return i like him way better.

I had the same impression. I think its due to a combination of the 'surprise' factor, a revamp of his look, and the fact that s/he's already got a few good lines on his/her first reappearance.

[Innis Cabal]

He's not a personal rival though. Just as Thog isn't a personal rival with Roy. Sabine and Nale are the only two personal rivals of Elan and Haley.

[G-Man Graves]

Is he really a personal enemy? I mean, I know they are opposites, but they haven't had a long-running rivalry like Haley and Crystal. Haley and Crystal have history together, but this is only the second time that V and Z have even met. Seems more like a recurring encounter than a personal enemy.

Well, keep in mind that Z had V fairly soundly beaten last time. And as I've mentioned, Nale is NOT an idiot, he would make sure his team is in fighting shape before he tried to take the order on.

[Innis Cabal]

That doesn't mean their rivals. Zz could have been out adventuring on his own this whole time, it's been longer then any other character appearance after all.

[Ninjaman]

He's not a personal rival though. Just as Thog isn't a personal rival with Roy. Sabine and Nale are the only two personal rivals of Elan and Haley.

What about Tsuki :smallconfused: Not to say Xykon :smalltongue:.

[Kish]

To answer one question, Zz'dtri can stay around as long as Rich chooses to keep him around. The joke about the lawyers hauling him off was a joke which Rich chose to make and nothing more.


He's not a personal rival though. Just as Thog isn't a personal rival with Roy. Sabine and Nale are the only two personal rivals of Elan and Haley.
...

why are you making this claim?

[Icedaemon]

No. I find dark elves relatively stupid and boring. Never got what poeple saw in small, spindly elves. Ok, females I can understand with some thinking (but only when I throw cha 16+ at them)... but male dark elves are small, thin figures that are far from what I consider "cool". So... no. ;)

Drizzt was never something I found interesting at all. Totally escaped me.

The thing is, given the choice between slightly interesting dark elves with a matriarchal theocracy and bland, lame, worthless standard elves, it would be folly to root for the latter (especially if the representative of the latter is some purple-haired twit which expects to get away with mass murder that noone but his/her familiar remembers).

[Occasional Sage]

Oo hey, maybe Zz carries hir spellbook around, and V can finally get that 3.0 Flight!

[ThePhantasm]

...

why are you making this claim?

I presume he was responding to G-Man's argument that Z is as powerful as V because they are supposedly "personal rivals."

[Kish]

I presume he was responding to G-Man's argument that Z is as powerful as V because they are supposedly "personal rivals."
Do I need to rephrase it to, "Why do you believe that?"?

Whether Rich chooses to revisit the joke he made with Crystal or not, I would not estimate Zz'dtri's level as less than Vaarsuvius'. Then again, in the dungeon he was casting level 6 spells and Vaarsuvius was casting maximum level 3 ones, so their levels may be completely independent.

[G-Man Graves]

I presume he was responding to G-Man's argument that Z is as powerful as V because they are supposedly "personal rivals."

Well, actually, it was less due to the personal rivals joke, and more because of the fact that if V could just stomp him into the ground, it would be boring, so I doubt Rich would do it. Furthermore, he was better than V in the dungeon, so there's no reason to expect him to do worse now.

[The Pilgrim]

Whether Rich chooses to revisit the joke he made with Crystal or not, I would not estimate Zz'dtri's level as less than Vaarsuvius'.

Well, technically speaking, Dark Elves have a +2 level adjustment. So probability (that courtesan who services drama like a copper-piece whore) dictates that Z is likely to be lower level than V (in turn, Z has that nasty Spell Resistance thing, kinda handy when battling a Wizard).

Of course, there is no poof that Z's PX are around the same range as V's. Should that be the case, then why such a powerful evil wizard is working for a half-assed loser like Nale, instead of being in the paycheck of someone who actually has the resources to pay for his services (like, say, Tarquin), is beyond me.

[Occasional Sage]

Well, technically speaking, Dark Elves have a +2 level adjustment. So probability (that courtesan who services drama like a copper-piece whore) dictates that Z is likely to be lower level than V (in turn, Z has that nasty Spell Resistance thing, kinda handy when battling a Wizard).

Of course, there is no poof that Z's PX are around the same range as V's. Should that be the case, then why such a powerful evil wizard is working for a half-assed loser like Nale, instead of being in the paycheck of someone who actually has the resources to pay for his services (like, say, Tarquin), is beyond me.

For love. Remember the glares directed at the ones who defeated Nale? :smallwink:

[NerfTW]

What I got from the Giant's comments in the book where Zz'dtri appeared is that he could use copyrighted material as long as it was for parody - which only is a short use.


I just read the commentary in Dungeon Crawling Fools. There is nothing even remotely about parody and copyright law in any of the comments. The only mention of Zz'dtri is how he is the opposite of V. Please tell me where you are seeing that.


And again. Parody does not mean "only short use". You're simply wrong there. One can have a two hour long parody movie, ala Spaceballs (Star Trek) if they follow the rules of parody. Please just go look it up on Google or Wikipedia. That's what they're there for.


Sabine and Nale are the only two personal rivals of Elan and Haley.

Despite the fact that the whole "personal rivals" rule was established with Crystal, and has only been mentioned at that one time, in relation to Crystal vs Haley?

[Calmar]

So you have slim, skinny 1,30 to 1,60 meter high semi-halflings with white hair and dark skin. Wow, how... impressive. Not. Really, that drow chick from deviantart is NOT what Drow actually look like.
While I still can imagine some mean drow-priestess, I totally fail to see male drow warriors as the cool, fearsome feos they are made to be.

Dangerous? Sure. But anything that I look at and think "cool" (like... Darth Vader)... no.

I put Drow in the same category as Halflings. In case I just destroyed some image of cool, impressive drow fighters - I apologise. But I did not write that source material and what you thought drow were is not what the books say they are.

I don't like drow either, but disliking them because they are small seems a bit inconsequent if you consider that humans themselves are supposed to be cool and fearsome combatants compared to big and strong hobgoblins, bugbears, or orcs; let alone ogres or trolls. :smalltongue:

[Xacal]

Well, actually, it was less due to the personal rivals joke, and more because of the fact that if V could just stomp him into the ground, it would be boring, so I doubt Rich would do it. Furthermore, he was better than V in the dungeon, so there's no reason to expect him to do worse now.

I gotta side with G-Man Graves here. People, as usual, are interpretting the rival +1 level bonus to literally. Rather, it is the fact that, in order to get us to root for the hero, the hero is typically the underdog. It'd be no fun if the hero could just curbstomp any major antagonist that they wanted to whenever they pleased... it'd be like a dangerous parrallel to Mary Sue-ish territory.
So, just from a genre saavy point of view, Zzdtri will have a few levels on V, maybe 1 to 3, plus the often meaningless Drow ECL bonus. Of course, that by no means ensures Zzdtri's victory- Again, rule of the genre typically gives the underdog the edge, regardless of the level! :smalltongue:
On a more tangential note, I don't think we need to give Zzdtri horrible mutant-pronouns like hir or (s)he, or whatever. I wasn't aware of any debate as to the latter being anything but male; His name is a play on a male character, too... I suppose he is an evil opposite of V, but I'm not sure if the thousands of gender-speculative froum threads must necessarily come with the territory. But, course, I suppose one never knows with stick figures.

To be honest... I've been sort of rooting for a Zzdtri-replaces-Belkar sort of scenario. Heh, it's funny, just a few short weeks ago I was rooting for Gaanji to fill the role. But, I'm still not convinced that Belkar's just going to disappear from the story like we all expected... something will complicate things to throw us off balance, I suspect.... :smalleek:

[Zevox]

Then again, in the dungeon he was casting level 6 spells and Vaarsuvius was casting maximum level 3 ones, so their levels may be completely independent.
V was capable of casting spells of at least level 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html) in the Dungeon of Dorukon period.

Zevox

[harmsc12]

V was capable of casting spells of at least level 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html) in the Dungeon of Dorukon period.

Zevox
You know, zeevox, every time I read one of your posts I hear it in Toph's voice with at least one "Twinkle-Toes" thrown in at random.

[Thornus67]

Re: Parody

Parody itself is a subset of Fair Use. Fair Use in US Copyright Law (since that is what would control) is codified in 17 USC sec. 107, restating the four classic factors for determining whether a copyright infringement should be allowed (although courts are free to look at other factors).


Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

The first factor restates the general rule that private, non-commercial infringements are more likely to be protected than commercial infringements. The second tends to look at how much of the original work was fact-based; facts can't be copyrighted, only the manner in which they're presented. The more fact-based the work is, the greater chance Fair Use will be recognized. The third factor looks at whether the heart of the work is taken; that factor is often ignored for parody analysis. The fourth is probably the most important factor; it asks the question "Was the market value of the work destroyed by the infringing work?"

Those are just the basic Fair Use factors. Parody gets a more nuanced analysis. It essentially asks whether the infringing work supersedes the original work or whether it adds something new with a further purpose or different character. Did the infringing work transform the original work?

Commercial works can be highly transformative. Two modern cases recognizing that would be 2Live Crew's "Hairy Woman" parody of "Pretty Woman" in Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music (holding that courts must distinguish between criticism which decreases market demand and a market substitute which usurps it) and "The Wind Done Gone" criticism of "The Gone with the Wind" in Suntrust Bank v. Houghton Mifflin Company (holding that a commercial product which offers a highly transformative critical statement of the original work is allowed).

The Zz'dtri character almost undoubtedly falls under the parody exception. It's a criticism of the Drizzt knock off characters. It's unlikely that Zz'dtri has done anything to destroy the market value of Drizzt. Zz'dtri does not supersede Drizzt; I doubt anyone would stop purchasing his books solely because of a minor antagonist in OotS. In fact, it adds something new to the character. It criticizes the laziness of some gamers when they copy a highly popular character.

"The Wind Done Gone" was highly critical of the way slavery was portrayed in "Gone with the Wind." Some argue that the portrayal of the antebellum South in "Gone with the Wind" has helped foster a romanticism for it. Similarly, Zz'dtri is critical of the romanticism associated with the Drizzt character type. It's a critical statement. Given the sheer amount taken from the original book for "The Wind Done Gone," Zz'dtri comes nowhere close. All he is is a scimitar dual-wielding, magic adept Drow.

There may be a better argument that the Zz'dtri name is infringing upon the Drizzt trademark. However, I doubt a court would find that the Drizzt mark is diluted by Zz'dtri. Given that the song Barbie Girl was found to be a non-infringing of the Barbie mark, Zz'dtri should be fine.

[Xacal]

Just to give a less knowledgeable addition to what Thornus 67 so eloquently stated, real Drizzt isn't magic adept, not beyond any other normal drow, at least (perhaps even less so as the story progessed). After all, though I guess this may have changeed in the later books, I remember Drizzt as beinga n Aragorn style, melee ranger...
Zzdtri being a copyright infringement on Drizzt is a little bit weak, even from my layman's standpoint. All the characters really share are the letters of their first name, rearranged, and the Dark Elf type. I would be surprised if anything serious came out of it.

[Innis Cabal]

I presume he was responding to G-Man's argument that Z is as powerful as V because they are supposedly "personal rivals."

I wasn't. I was responding soley to the people saying Zz was V's rival.


Do I need to rephrase it to, "Why do you believe that?"?

Whether Rich chooses to revisit the joke he made with Crystal or not, I would not estimate Zz'dtri's level as less than Vaarsuvius'. Then again, in the dungeon he was casting level 6 spells and Vaarsuvius was casting maximum level 3 ones, so their levels may be completely independent.

I said he wasn't a rival with V, which is as far as we know true. You'll actually note that I said they well could be the same level


That doesn't mean their rivals. Zz could have been out adventuring on his own this whole time, it's been longer then any other character appearance after all.

two replies later. So clearly I don't have a single issue them being the same level or Zz being higher or V being higher.

[Ancalagon]

I don't like drow either, but disliking them because they are small seems a bit inconsequent

I'm just saying I do not see them as the super-cool super-sexy super-humans (yeah, I know) as they usually seem to be seen. That's all I say.

As I already mentioned, playing their society is an interesting thing but I never found that drow were THE hot thing to use in a game. Simply because they shrink if you think about how the campaign setting has them.
No one would play the cool charisma 18 halfling-sorcereress but it seems to be a common trope worth of parody - and check out deviantart on "drow" as well.

Do you want to tell me the following links have no root at all in most gamer's minds?
http://www.goblinscomic.com/08192005/
Or here? Isn't the green on the typical male warrior and the purple a classic drow-female (remember this here is parody)?
http://www.goblinscomic.com/09302005/

Whatever drow are and whatever their use in the game are... they are not this. That is all I want to say. I have the theory that many players who want to play an exotic, interesting character confuse that with an non-standard race. But ignore this if you will, it's just mindless rambling.

[ShenCS]

Haha, if something is shorter and skinnier than a human, it can't possibly be cool. Gotta love that xenophobia.
On topic, I don't think Zz'Dtri will die. Nale and his gang seem to be foreshadowing some sort of evolution into competence (i.e. they're part of the IFCC's plan) and so need to have their numbers refilled. Zz fills at least one role nicely. On the other hand, Giant likes anti-climaxes almost as much as Clevinger by the look of it, so maybe he'll just be taken out again by something nonsensical.

[TreesOfDeath]

The giant would be allowed to use ZZ'Dtri indeifnately.

If parody=free speech could expire, this comic would be doomed for its use of DND mechanics.


However I think ZZ'Dtri will die soon because he has outlived his gimmick, and isn't intresting or quirky enough without it.

[Kish]

I said he wasn't a rival with V, which is as far as we know true..
If I ask "Why do you believe that?" enough times, will you ever answer it?

(Note, I would have the same reaction if you were saying "he is a personal rival of Vaarsuvius," and, in fact, do have the same reaction to your assertion that Sabine and Nale are [the only, even!] personal rivals of Haley and Elan. You're making flat unsupported assertions on a subject where we have no indication one way or the other, and seem not to realize that repetition isn't proof.)

[ThePhantasm]

If I ask "Why do you believe that?" enough times, will you ever answer it?

(Note, I would have the same reaction if you were saying "he is a personal rival of Vaarsuvius," and, in fact, do have the same reaction to your assertion that Sabine and Nale are [the only, even!] personal rivals of Haley and Elan. You're making flat unsupported assertions on a subject where we have no indication one way or the other, and seem not to realize that repetition isn't proof.)

I can't speak for Innis Cabal, but here's the reasons I gave earlier:


Is he really a personal enemy? I mean, I know they are opposites, but they haven't had a long-running rivalry like Haley and Crystal. Haley and Crystal have history together, but this is only the second time that V and Z have even met. Seems more like a recurring encounter than a personal enemy.

People keep saying that Zz is V's personal rival, but they seem to be making "flat, unsupported assertions" as well. Innis said that the reasons given don't mean that Zz is a personal rival. So I guess he and I have both been asking for proof for the claim that they are personal rivals, or at least a glimpse of the reasoning behind it. I can't speak for Innis' statements about Nale and Sabine.

[Phishfood]

Haha, if something is shorter and skinnier than a human, it can't possibly be cool. Gotta love that xenophobia.
On topic, I don't think Zz'Dtri will die. Nale and his gang seem to be foreshadowing some sort of evolution into competence (i.e. they're part of the IFCC's plan) and so need to have their numbers refilled. Zz fills at least one role nicely. On the other hand, Giant likes anti-climaxes almost as much as Clevinger by the look of it, so maybe he'll just be taken out again by something nonsensical.

Its not xenophobia, its just liking something to hold on to ;) Look at "size 0" models....blech.

[Calmar]

I'm just saying I do not see them as the super-cool super-sexy super-humans (yeah, I know) as they usually seem to be seen. That's all I say.

As I already mentioned, playing their society is an interesting thing but I never found that drow were THE hot thing to use in a game. Simply because they shrink if you think about how the campaign setting has them.
No one would play the cool charisma 18 halfling-sorcereress but it seems to be a common trope worth of parody - and check out deviantart on "drow" as well.

Do you want to tell me the following links have no root at all in most gamer's minds?
http://www.goblinscomic.com/08192005/
Or here? Isn't the green on the typical male warrior and the purple a classic drow-female (remember this here is parody)?
http://www.goblinscomic.com/09302005/

Whatever drow are and whatever their use in the game are... they are not this. That is all I want to say. I have the theory that many players who want to play an exotic, interesting character confuse that with an non-standard race. But ignore this if you will, it's just mindless rambling.

I completely agree with you... but I insist that their size is the least disturbing thing about drow. :smalltongue:

Fallen elves, in my opinion, should look more like this (http://rwizards.org/Applets/orc.jpg), and less like that (http://www.equinoxshard.com/images/drow-hierarchy.gif). In fact, I have barely any understanding or sympathy for the notion that non-human ("unhuman) creatures should appear attractive, or hot to us (apart from certain angelic beings or noble faeries not suitable as PCs). The whole drow-thing of a society ruled by sluttily clad mistresses who rule by virtue of hot looks is too fetishistic for me. The same applies to vampires. Also, the implicit message that the quality of a person depends on her or his good looks is retarded (you hardly see any characters who're ugly yet badass).
I play D&D for heroic fantasy, not for sexual fantasies. There's enough good-looking women outside the gaming table.

[martianmister]

Zz'dtri isn't a parody of Drizzt and there is no real similarity between their personalities.

[Stubbazubba]

Zz was invented as a gag character, and his appearance here is another gag. Unless the Giant has an actual personality and character worked out for him this time around, I'll say he won't stick around for long, but not because of any legal issues; it has been clearly established that OotS clearly does not threaten any of the material it parodies, and is far too small-scale an operation to be worth the initial investment in a lawsuit in the first place. The legalese is all a joke.

So, with that aside, it just comes down to whether or not the story can be moved or made more interesting by Zz's character beyond the Drizzt-clone gag (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html), which he, in fact, is not a representative of anyway, being a truly evil character. If he can outlast his gag, then he becomes an independent villain, with little to tie him back to Drizzt, but if he can't, he'll be taken care of just as quickly as he was the first time and replaced by someone else.

[Kish]

Zz'dtri isn't a parody of Drizzt
...really? Really? Where do you suppose Rich got the name Zz'dtri from then?

(Not to mention the "they're standard issue" scimitars.)

[martianmister]

...really? Really? Where do you suppose Rich got the name Zz'dtri from then?

(Not to mention the "they're standard issue" scimitars.)

He is a parody of DnD players who makes characters like cheap Drizzt rip-offs, not Drizzt's. Even then, he is nothing in common with him except artifical things like name or scimitars. Even Nale's explanation in 8th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html) is a lie.

[harmsc12]

He is a parody of DnD players who makes characters like cheap Drizzt rip-offs, not Drizzt's. Even then, he is nothing in common with him except artifical things like name or scimitars. Even Nale's explanation in 8th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html) is a lie.

I suppose that makes him a subversion of the trope?

[Innis Cabal]

If I ask "Why do you believe that?" enough times, will you ever answer it?

(Note, I would have the same reaction if you were saying "he is a personal rival of Vaarsuvius," and, in fact, do have the same reaction to your assertion that Sabine and Nale are [the only, even!] personal rivals of Haley and Elan. You're making flat unsupported assertions on a subject where we have no indication one way or the other, and seem not to realize that repetition isn't proof.)


I can't speak for Innis Cabal, but here's the reasons I gave earlier:

People keep saying that Zz is V's personal rival, but they seem to be making "flat, unsupported assertions" as well. Innis said that the reasons given don't mean that Zz is a personal rival. So I guess he and I have both been asking for proof for the claim that they are personal rivals, or at least a glimpse of the reasoning behind it. I can't speak for Innis' statements about Nale and Sabine.

That's the jist of it. Also on this.


I would have the same reaction if you were saying "he is a personal rival of Vaarsuvius,

You haven't yet with anyone else making that claim so you'll have to excuse me if I :smallconfused:

As to why I say Nale and Elan are personal rivals...you must not be reading the same comic as me. The inordinate amount of time Nale has spent trying to kill Elan is a good several plot points long and Nale has more or less said as much in the comic itself. Note please I didn't say he said Elan was his personal rival word for word. I said "He's said as much."

Haley and Sabine, in part before of their parallel in their groups, but also again because of their reactions to one another. It's clear Sabine is a rival with Haley from the get go. Trashy insults and what not nonwithstanding, she was furious with Nale for trying to kill Haley alone on the premise it was her kill to enjoy.

[Kish]

As to why I say Nale and Elan are personal rivals...you must not be reading the same comic as me. The inordinate amount of time Nale has spent trying to kill Elan is a good several plot points long and Nale has more or less said as much in the comic itself. Note please I didn't say he said Elan was his personal rival word for word. I said "He's said as much."

Haley and Sabine, in part before of their parallel in their groups, but also again because of their reactions to one another. It's clear Sabine is a rival with Haley from the get go. Trashy insults and what not nonwithstanding, she was furious with Nale for trying to kill Haley alone on the premise it was her kill to enjoy.
Allowing, just for the moment, just for the sake of argument, that that would justify the statement "Nale and Elan, and Haley and Sabine, are personal rivals."

What justifies your assertion that only those two pairs are?

*looks back up the thread* Ah. I see now that G-Man Graves did assert that Zz'dtri is a personal rival of Vaarsuvius and will get level boosts from that. While that statement is no more supportable than "Nale is/is not a personal rival of Elan" or "Thog is/is not a personal rival of Roy," it is nevertheless significantly less extreme than "Nale and Sabine are the only two personal rivals of Elan and Haley." If you'd just stuck with, "He's not a personal rival, though," I would have just stood back and let you and G-Man Graves prove each other wrong by assertion.

[Innis Cabal]

As did King of Nowhere. Once again, I am not claiming they are not rivals nor am I claiming Zz is under V's level. I am refuting they are based on lack of evidence.

As to the other thing, if you want to make another thread about it I'll answer there. But it's not on topic here and I'm not going to drag the topic off course further.

[G-Man Graves]

"Personal Rival" is a fairly loose term that could apply to the pair. However, my initial assertation that they are the same of similar level is that it would be quite anti-climactic if Z just loses because he hasn't leveled at all.

[Innis Cabal]

It'd also be terribly boring for the Order to keep losing their rear every time something happens. Seriously, it's getting old fast.

[G-Man Graves]

It'd also be terribly boring for the Order to keep losing their rear every time something happens. Seriously, it's getting old fast.

But where's the fun if the good guys just win, immediately? Or if the Linear Guild just suck after however many hundred strips.

[Innis Cabal]

The Linear Guild has had a fair bit of victories even if they've been out of the picture for a while. It took how long for the damage done at Cliffport to resolve and even then it wasn't exactly a total loss as they learned about the Gates and the Fiends also learned of them.

Is it fun for the villains just to lose? No but it's also boring when the hero's do nothing but get their rear handed to them without 200 strips of how they have to overcome it.

[harmsc12]

But where's the fun if the good guys just win, immediately? Or if the Linear Guild just suck after however many hundred strips.

It's fun if it's a subversion of the expected outcome. Like blowing up a balloon, grabbing a needle...and then pointing the balloon at someone's face and letting go.

[Neutral Evil]

It's fun if it's a subversion of the expected outcome. Like blowing up a balloon, grabbing a needle...and then pointing the balloon at someone's face and letting go.

Or stabbing the needle repeatedly into someone's eyes :smallsmile: --> :smallcool:

(Craft Disturbing Mental Image: Success :smallwink:)

[St Fan]

As far as parody goes, Zz'dtri is rather tame compared to, say, Goblins (http://www.goblinscomic.com/07102005/), where the concept of overused Drizzt rip-offs (http://www.goblinscomic.com/07112005/) was utterly skewered.

[Neutral Evil]

For anyone interested in discussing the actual combat between Z and V, I have started this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197415) devoted specifically to that issue.

[JSSheridan]

But where's the fun if the good guys just win, immediately? Or if the Linear Guild just suck after however many hundred strips.

The LG has never won an encounter in-comic, and most of the readers don't look to take them seriously. The near-misses were still failures. I think this arc will end in a LG victory with our heroes on the run, so we can see them as a threat again and ratchet up dramatic tension for the home stretch of the series.

[ThePhantasm]

The LG has never won an encounter in-comic, and most of the readers don't look to take them seriously. The near-misses were still failures. I think this arc will end in a LG victory with our heroes on the run, so we can see them as a threat again and ratchet up dramatic tension for the home stretch of the series.

Never won an encounter? What about replacing Elan with a disguised Nale, or capturing Roy's sister? Sure, they lost in the long run, but at first they won. They are bad guys. They have to lose in the long run. In the short run, they've had plenty of victories.

I doubt that the Giant is just trying to "convince" people through this arc that the LG is a threat. Come on. I haven't seen anyone on the boards saying, "Oh, Zz and Thog. And Nale and Sabine are probably somewhere. It will be easy for the Order to get out of this one." Everyone is well aware that the LG is a threat; we don't need an arc to be structured for the sole purpose of beating us over the head with the fact.

[sims796]

In a Batman comic, the Penguin once said that, looking at the numbers, he has more victories over Bats than he has over the Penguin. In the long run, he loses, but in their first encounter, Pengy usually starts off the victor.

[Flame of Anor]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilAlwaysTriumphsInTheMiddle