What is a Gish?

[monkeyslippers]

Ive always like Gish Characters, but i wonder how others build theirs
Are they a combatant that casts spells?
Are the Casters that can fight closer then usual?
Are the Ray Spell caters?
Arcane archers?
What is ur Flavor of GISH
State ur class, role, any flare u like to put with it

[Etrivar]

Sorcerer - Spelltheif - Daggerspell Mage - Invisible Blade.

I have never had more fun playing then when I was playing this guy.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I've had a few.

Paladin 2 or 4 and the rest sorc(we where not allowed to pick up PRC's)
But i would have gone abjurant champ.

Transmuter into the haste PRC.

Duskblade(was tons of fun).

Strait hexblade(with the designer changes) also alot of fun.

[Fable Wright]

A gish is a very broadly encompassing term. The "normal" definition of a gish is a character with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher and 7th level or higher spells/powers at 20th level. Most gishes have +17-18 BAB and 9th level spells. Most gishes are warriors who layer themselves in buffs, and use lockdown and battlefield control from there.

Personally, my favorite gish is (from the SRD) a Psion 4/Fighter 2/Slayer 10/Elocator 4. Take Expanded knowledge at 12th level and pick up Control Body, learning Solicit Psycrystal and Schism. Suddenly, action abuse beyond all belief. Your psycrystal maintains concentration for you for Control Body, suddenly turning all combat stats Int-based, and your psycrystal sends your body into combat and full-attacking for you, leaving you a full-round action to use powers, and with your Schism using low-level buffs+battlefield control, you can be ridiculously terrifying beyond all belief. Astral construct+Vigor+Psionic Grease+full attack every round? Hells yes! Worth (to me, at least) the loss of 9th level powers.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A primary melee combatant with near-primary spellcasting capability is the typical definition. All of them include Arcane Strike and Power Attack, often with Leap Attack, preferably with (Persistent or Lesser Rod of Extended) Wraithstrike and (Lesser Rod of Quickened or Circlet of Rapid Casting) Whirling Blade. Polymorph and (Persistent) Draconic Polymorph are amazing, and Minor Shapeshift gives you a spectacular cushion for tanking damage.

The strongest Sorcerer-based build would be the Sorcadin, Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8. Due to the alignment requirements of Sacred Exorcist and the lack of a suitable substitute for it, you may as well use Paladin for the Cha-synergy. Get a weapon with the Sudden Stunning property in DMG2.

The strongest Wizard-based build would probably involve Incantatrix, since you could still get 9th level spells and a +16 BAB at 20th. Something like Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human or Elf Paragon 3/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 4 works just fine in the mid-levels, but you may need to get some of the Abjurant Champion sooner if you start in the lower levels. Get a high enough Spellcraft bonus to always succeed in Persisting your highest level spells by taking ten when you use Metamagic Effect.

The strongest cheese-based build would include Kobold shenanigans. A Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake, with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 1 gets a +19 BAB and 20th level Wizard spellcasting. You'll have a +16 BAB and 9th level spells at level 17.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

My usual habit is to make someone who uses spells to be a better fighter. Not "Fighter," just combatant. My usual "pure gish" build is either Human Paragon 3/Wizard 3/Eldritch Knight X/Abjurant Champion 5/EK +Y, Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champio 5, or Crusader 1/Wizard 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 9-10/Abjurant Champion 4-5. All three of these builds focus primarily on using buff spells to do more in combat, then using additional spells to either GTFO or just insure survival.

Although I don't considering it a proper gish, I'm also fond of Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Some other rogue+caster class 5, using Hunter's Eye for massive amounts of sneak attack damage on either a TWF-ing routine or on a spell per round attack.

[Hyfigh]

I like the Mystic Ranger variant Swift Hunter of various builds. 5th level spells isn't too incredibly powerful, but provides enough tricks.

Edit: Oopes - forgot to mention the pre-canned Gish. I like Ardent and Duskblades too. Warlock aren't bad if you play them melee-style.

My favorite real badass is a complex Bone Knight build. They're like Marvels Juggernaut... Nasty buggers.

Edit 2: Gah! Want to give props to Factotum and various Chameleon builds, too.

[Aricandor]

For me, it's usually anything with Jade Phoenix Mage spliced in. :smallbiggrin:
Usually with swift buff spells, extended long-duration things and then throwing around stuff like Acid Cloud and Wall of Force between maneuvers.

[Greenish]

A gish is a very broadly encompassing term. The "normal" definition of a gish is a character with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher and 7th level or higher spells/powers at 20th level. Most gishes have +17-18 BAB and 9th level spells. Most gishes are warriors who layer themselves in buffs, and use lockdown and battlefield control from there.The normal definition of "gish" would be "warrior-mage", that is, someone who actually whacks people with a weapon in addition to casting spells. Specific specs are no part of the definition, IMO.

[Eldariel]

Swiftblade, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Sublime Archer or just plain ol' Slayer. I want my money back on Jade Phoenix Mage; giving it access to two schools one of which is relatively useless to a caster... :smallannoyed:

[danzibr]

A gish is a very broadly encompassing term. The "normal" definition of a gish is a character with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher and 7th level or higher spells/powers at 20th level. Most gishes have +17-18 BAB and 9th level spells. Most gishes are warriors who layer themselves in buffs, and use lockdown and battlefield control from there.

Personally, my favorite gish is (from the SRD) a Psion 4/Fighter 2/Slayer 10/Elocator 4. Take Expanded knowledge at 12th level and pick up Control Body, learning Solicit Psycrystal and Schism. Suddenly, action abuse beyond all belief. Your psycrystal maintains concentration for you for Control Body, suddenly turning all combat stats Int-based, and your psycrystal sends your body into combat and full-attacking for you, leaving you a full-round action to use powers, and with your Schism using low-level buffs+battlefield control, you can be ridiculously terrifying beyond all belief. Astral construct+Vigor+Psionic Grease+full attack every round? Hells yes! Worth (to me, at least) the loss of 9th level powers.

Bookmarked.

[Escheton]

I personally always like my Gishes as max-min. Able to do EVERYTHING.
Factotum3/wizard1/warblade2/elf paragon3/Jade phoenix mage 10.

Jade phoenix mage gives you more spells and healing strikes. factotum gives you Int to everything and mad skills.
You won't outshine anyone that specialised. But you can however do anything you can come up with.

[Fable Wright]

The normal definition of "gish" would be "warrior-mage", that is, someone who actually whacks people with a weapon in addition to casting spells. Specific specs are no part of the definition, IMO.

No, it doesn't. However, something with BAB +13 isn't usually called a gish, nor is something with only 6th level spell slots. Thus, a "normal" definition for the qualifications.

[Doc Roc]

All swiftblade, all the time!

[Greenish]

No, it doesn't. However, something with BAB +13 isn't usually called a gish, nor is something with only 6th level spell slots. Thus, a "normal" definition for the qualifications.Plenty of gishes* don't reach 6th level or beyond spells, and those are just very arbitrary limits, when you really mean that the character is supposed to be decent at both casting and hand-to-hand combat.


*Say, bard swiftblade, duskblade, psywarr, Suel Arcanamachs.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A gish is a very broadly encompassing term. The "normal" definition of a gish is a character with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher and 7th level or higher spells/powers at 20th level. Most gishes have +17-18 BAB and 9th level spells. Most gishes are warriors who layer themselves in buffs, and use lockdown and battlefield control from there.

Personally, my favorite gish is (from the SRD) a Psion 4/Fighter 2/Slayer 10/Elocator 4. Take Expanded knowledge at 12th level and pick up Control Body, learning Solicit Psycrystal and Schism. Suddenly, action abuse beyond all belief. Your psycrystal maintains concentration for you for Control Body, suddenly turning all combat stats Int-based, and your psycrystal sends your body into combat and full-attacking for you, leaving you a full-round action to use powers, and with your Schism using low-level buffs+battlefield control, you can be ridiculously terrifying beyond all belief. Astral construct+Vigor+Psionic Grease+full attack every round? Hells yes! Worth (to me, at least) the loss of 9th level powers.

Couldn't your Schism also Schism the Psicrystal, then Control Body and Solicit Psicrystal a second time for the Psicrystal's Schism?

[Firechanter]

Wizard/Incantatrix plus Arcane Disciple (War)
--> DMM Persist Divine Power
--> full +20 BAB and full undelayed level 9 spellcasting

(Hitpoints aren't too hot, though)

[ScionoftheVoid]

Couldn't your Schism also Schism the Psicrystal, then Control Body and Solicit Psicrystal a second time for the Psicrystal's Schism?

Schism is personal only, so you couldn't use it on your Psicrystal, and manifests significantly (I think six levels) weaker than you, so Control Body is almost out of the question. All IIRC, and I have a habit of misremembering Psionics.

[Greenish]

Schism is personal only, so you couldn't use it on your Psicrystal, and manifests significantly (I think six levels) weaker than you, so Control Body is almost out of the question. All IIRC, and I have a habit of misremembering Psionics.
Share Powers (Su)
At the owner’s option, he can have any power (but not any psi-like ability) he manifests on himself also affect his psicrystal.Practiced Manifester helps with Schism. :smallwink:

[Morph Bark]

A miserable pile of sword and spells!

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you want an example of a gish, think of anyone with the Tashalotora feat from Secrets of Sarlona, which keeps progressing your monk flurry, unarmed strike, and AC bonus, while taking levels in a psionic class.

A monk/psion is best, if you can pull off the ability scores, and monk/psychic warrior works if you can't.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can manifest any power as though the psicrystal was your character, including persona-range powers. Sharing the initial casting is even better, though.

Your Schism can manifest Control Body at level 13. You would have to manifest Solicit Psicrystal though, since the Schism only gets a standard action.

[The-Mage-King]

A miserable pile of sword and spells!

Enough talk! Have at you!



Ahem. To answer the original question... A battlemage.

[TOZ]

Ahem. To answer the original question... A battlemage.

A mage that battles? Or a battle that mages? :smallsmile:

Anyway, obviously it's not just any mage that uses spells in combat, since that's all of them. It's not even 'someone who uses spells in melee'. Generally speaking, I guess we can say 'someone who fights in melee using spells to be better in melee'.

[erikun]

Personally, my favorite gish is (from the SRD) a Psion 4/Fighter 2/Slayer 10/Elocator 4.
Wouldn't Psion 6/Elocator 2/Slayer 10/Elocator 2 work just as well? It would lose +1 BAB and two feats, but hang onto nearly full manifesting.

Not that I have anything against non-optimal builds. I still like my Fighter/Clerics, even when they gain very little from their lost spells. Unless there is something in Slayer that you want to take it as quickly as possible?

[Pechvarry]

Ahem. To answer the original question... A battlemage.

A Ruamathari Battlemage, no less. Move over, Abjurant Champion! Scram, Swiftblade! I'll show you how real pros gish twice/day!

[Fable Wright]

You can manifest any power as though the psicrystal was your character, including persona-range powers. Sharing the initial casting is even better, though.

Your Schism can manifest Control Body at level 13. You would have to manifest Solicit Psicrystal though, since the Schism only gets a standard action.

It's only a standard action to maintain concentration...

[TheGeckoKing]

My definition of a Gish was always someone competent at fighting and spellcasting. Yes, a Polymorph spammer falls into this. Shush you. :smallannoyed:
Anyway, my favorite gish was always the Ardent. 9th level powers, a pretty good BaB, and multiclassing friendly.

[Fable Wright]

Wouldn't Psion 6/Elocator 2/Slayer 10/Elocator 2 work just as well? It would lose +1 BAB and two feats, but hang onto nearly full manifesting.

Not that I have anything against non-optimal builds. I still like my Fighter/Clerics, even when they gain very little from their lost spells. Unless there is something in Slayer that you want to take it as quickly as possible?

Yeah, that could work well. But I really wanted the fighter 1 dip, as it gives full armor proficiency. And manifesting has no ACF. And the maximum bonus to AC from Dex does not matter while Control Bodied, so you still get full Int modifier. Plus the bonus feats help. And since Elocator 5 really doesn't help that much, I settled for the bonus feat (Always good) and the proficiencies. But whatever floats your boat.

[erikun]

But I really wanted the fighter 1 dip, as it gives full armor proficiency. And manifesting has no ACF.
Good point, although I thought that Slayer gives full armor proficiency as well.

[MeeposFire]

Since it has not been mentioned I will give the official definition.

Gish is what Githyanki called their fighter/mages back in the day. In 3rd they took term and applied it as any combo of warrior and caster. Some tend to have requirements such as minimum caster level, minimum BAB, or using buffing spells rather than blasting but at its core it is being a combo of fighting and casting is the best use of the term I think (since githyanki don't have such rules and non-fighter warrior classes did not exist that could multiclass with wizard for a githyanki).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Since it has not been mentioned I will give the official definition.

Gish is what Githyanki called their fighter/mages back in the day. In 3rd they took term and applied it as any combo of warrior and caster. Some tend to have requirements such as minimum caster level, minimum BAB, or using buffing spells rather than blasting but at its core it is being a combo of fighting and casting is the best use of the term I think (since githyanki don't have such rules and non-fighter warrior classes did not exist that could multiclass with wizard for a githyanki).

I always thought the word gish had something to do with the Gith.

[Cog]

Slayer has full armor profs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm).

[Fable Wright]

Good point, although I thought that Slayer gives full armor proficiency as well.

So they do... scratch the fighter 1 dip, then. I just need the armor and such before I get Control Body.

EDIT: Too Many Ninja's!!!

[MeeposFire]

I always thought the word gish had something to do with the Gith.

If by Gith you mean Githyanki then yes. Githzerai did not use the term gish as they had other terms. Githzerai had their own term for fighter/mage which is "zerth".

If you want to get real specific gish applied to level 4/4 githyank fighter/mages as per the 2e Monstrous manual.

There is also "Gith" from Dark Sun but they are nothing like the Githyanki or Githzerai and they don't use the term gish (nor do I think they have fighter/mages to boot).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wasn't Gish (originally) the name of the Githzerai that led the revolution against the Mindflayers? Or am I inventing things?

[Cog]

No, that was Gith, which is why both subgroups have it in their names.

[Dusk Eclipse]

No, that was Gith, which is why both subgroups have it in their names.

A thanks, that does make sense.

[MeeposFire]

Wasn't Gish (originally) the name of the Githzerai that led the revolution against the Mindflayers? Or am I inventing things?

You are misremembering. In the original lore Githyanki and Githzerai were both one people who were humans captured by mindflayers and bred over time into that people. Later a woman named Gith led the people into a rebellion that deposed the mindflayers. Gith was very warlike and attempted to lead the people into further war. A person named Zerthimon came forward and challenged Gith for control as he wanted a more peaceful life. This led to the split of the people into the Githyanki led by Gith and the Githzerai led by Zerthimon. It is easy to confuse Gith with Gish though I admit.

[Kaje]

Anyway, obviously it's not just any mage that uses spells in combat, since that's all of them. It's not even 'someone who uses spells in melee'. Generally speaking, I guess we can say 'someone who fights in melee using spells to be better in melee'.I would argue that spells aren't even necessary, just magic. A simple swordsage is a great gish, imo.

[Hyfigh]

Yes, another that I've forgot. Swiftblades. I really think they're cool for a few-level-dip or the full run.

[Hazzardevil]

Sorcerer - Spelltheif - Daggerspell Mage - Invisible Blade.

I have never had more fun playing then when I was playing this guy.

Your that nut who refused to think carefully about his build and refused to find something better than invisible!

QUOTE=Swiftmongoose;10891797]If you want an example of a gish, think of anyone with the Tashalotora feat from Secrets of Sarlona, which keeps progressing your monk flurry, unarmed strike, and AC bonus, while taking levels in a psionic class.

A monk/psion is best, if you can pull off the ability scores, and monk/psychic warrior works if you can't.[/QUOTE]

Ascetic Psion would like a word with you.

Anyway, Gishes are expected to be able to fill the role as spellcaster and still help when they run out of spells. Gishes are while not populer, are very good builds for newbies as they can still contribute after they nova something.

While many people claim that you can have divine gishes, I disagree because a cleric can gish by themselves without prestiging.
I think the simplest way of describing a gish is wizard in a full plate.

[Greenish]

Ascetic Psion would like a word with you.Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk do the same thing, but from level 1 without requiring crappy prerequisites.

Also, most gishes go for light armour, if they even use armour. Greater Luminous Armour is popular, of course.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk do the same thing, but from level 1 without requiring crappy prerequisites.

Also, most gishes go for light armour, if they even use armour. Greater Luminous Armour is popular, of course.

I'd argue that most gishes forgo real armor entirely and instead rely on either some variation of mage armor or luminous armor instead, only bothering with real, light armor for some sort of enhancement that can't be duplicated elsewhere.:smallwink:

[Greenish]

I'd argue that most gishes forgo real armor entirely and instead rely on either some variation of mage armor or luminous armor instead, only bothering with real, light armor for some sort of enhancement that can't be duplicated elsewhere.:smallwink:Did I ninja-edit? I think I did. :smallamused:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Did I ninja-edit? I think I did. :smallamused:

Well played.:smallamused:

Although, honestly, with Abjurant Champion on the table it does make being a gish easier on your wallet, since you really don't need to worry about shields or armor until late game when you have the cash to spare it for +1 Whatever awesome ability super light weight armor.

[Greenish]

you have the cash to spare it for +1 Whatever awesome ability super light weight armor.Hmm, how about Dastana (OA/A&EG)? ASF of just 5% can be reduced without even going for mithral version, and and the armour bonus stacks with other armour bonuses. That should make a decent platform for enchants. No ACP or max dex are nice bonuses.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Hmm, how about Dastana (OA/A&EG)? ASF of just 5% can be reduced without even going for mithral version, and and the armour bonus stacks with other armour bonuses. That should make a decent platform for enchants. No ACP or max dex are nice bonuses.

I thought the update nerfed the bonus AC from the Dastana, due to the fact that "shield" bonus wasn't an actual bonus type to AC in 3.0. Even in that case, however, they still do make an amazing ability platform for various enhancements.

[Greenish]

I thought the update nerfed the bonus AC from the Dastana, due to the fact that "shield" bonus wasn't an actual bonus type to AC in 3.0.It did? I really should look up those updates one day.

[Godskook]

"True" gishes are fighter/caster hybrids, and the gold standard here is +16 BAB and 17 CL(or 18 CL for Spont casters)

From there, I would expand into the 'secondary' gishes, i.e., the monk gish and the arcane rogue. Both are strong combatants, but have different build choices than the standard gish variety.

[Fable Wright]

Anyway, Gishes are expected to be able to fill the role as spellcaster and still help when they run out of spells. Gishes are while not populer, are very good builds for newbies as they can still contribute after they nova something.

While many people claim that you can have divine gishes, I disagree because a cleric can gish by themselves without prestiging.
I think the simplest way of describing a gish is wizard in a full plate.
...What? No, seriously, what? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. First off, gishes are popular amongst the people who bother to play one. If you ever show the player of the barbarian or fighter the Warmind class, you can bet that they will be at least interested in it. In my experience, gishes are extremely popular. And, more often than not, not newbie friendly. Most Gishes usually lay down the battlefield control/swift-speed buffs before charging into front-line melee, using support spells if their sword won't work. Divine Gishes do exist, though in a different way than Arcane gishes. Divine gishes can, indeed, be a plain cleric. Though, you know, a Cleric/Bone Knight can fill the Gish role better, and has better fluff and cool abilities with badass armor. And, as previously mentioned, full plate usually is not used at all. Except in very specific cases, such as a psion using travel devotion while schismed and having his Solicit Psycrystal allow him to full attack without using any actions and generally abusing the action economy in general.

[MeeposFire]

I thought the update nerfed the bonus AC from the Dastana, due to the fact that "shield" bonus wasn't an actual bonus type to AC in 3.0. Even in that case, however, they still do make an amazing ability platform for various enhancements.

That would be a strange fix considering that they are explicitly stated to stack with a shield in their description.

[Cog]

It's consistent, though. By my understanding, 3.5 is a lot tighter with stacking than 3.0 was; look at the crit range rules for another example.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

It did? I really should look up those updates one day.

The update for all of the OA stuff is in Dragon 318, which was printed after Arms and Equipment, so its rules are the standard. Officially, if you were to have a dastana and chahar-aina on some form of light armor, you'd just add them to that light armor's AC bonus, but only the highest +X would count, even though you'd add all the little specials on each of the three's qualities.

EDIT: So, basically, from the update, it looks like they are additional "armor" bonuses slapped onto light armor, rather than being an actual shield bonus.

[Greenish]

Officially, if you were to have a dastana and chahar-aina on some form of light armor, you'd just add them to that light armor's AC bonus, but only the highest +X would count, even though you'd add all the little specials on each of the three's qualities.Well, yeah, isn't that how they worked without the update too? I mean, +X will be enhancement bonus to armour bonus, and thus wouldn't stack with other enhancement bonuses on armour bonus, unlike Dastana's and Chahar-Aina's armour bonus that's explicitly allowed to stack. :smallconfused:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Well, yeah, isn't that how they worked without the update too? I mean, +X will be enhancement bonus to armour bonus, and thus wouldn't stack with other enhancement bonuses on armour bonus, unlike Dastana's and Chahar-Aina's armour bonus that's explicitly allowed to stack. :smallconfused:

I mentioned it, because it was part of the update, but I don't want to go against the whole copy-right rule here, but yeah, basically they're just extra armor that can be added, but have that little quirk to them.

[TroubleBrewing]

My personal favorite is DMM cleric.

Yeah. I'm that guy.

[Doc Roc]

My personal favorite is DMM cleric.

Yeah. I'm that guy.

It's okay, you're in good company. Kinda. Okay, so I may not be good people (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19867046/Ruby_Reaver:_3_Ruby-Shadow-Alikes.&post_num=1).

[TroubleBrewing]

Bad people make great company.

Exceptionally awful individuals make the only company, so far as I'm concerned. :smallamused:

[gorfnab]

I like Bard based gishes. Having a lot of skills points, armor, and buffs early in the game really helps survivability. Plus you can make them Cha SAD with stuff like Snowflake Wardance and Slippers of Battledancing.
Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3

[Doc Roc]

Bad people make great company.

Exceptionally awful individuals make the only company, so far as I'm concerned. :smallamused:

I'm given to understand that we have plenty of company, then. Swing by IRC sometime?