Looking for weapon: "crossbow carbine"

[Firechanter]

I'm not sure if I saw something like this before; possible what I have in mind is actually spread out over several weapons. Before I start poring through all my splats, I thought I'd ask you guys who know that stuff by heart.

I'm looking for a crossbow that's actually on par with a composite bow. I.e. it should be available with Str mod to damage, and possible to reload as free action. Of course it doesn't need to be a Simple weapon; depending on its stats Martial or Exotic would be fine.
Added cred if it includes a melee option, i.e. a bayonet.

Any ideas?

[Greenish]

Crossbow bayonets are in C.Scoundrel, if my memory serves. Otherwise I can think of no official weapon that fits your specifications.

Crossbows can get 1/2 dex to damage with crossbow sniper, that with rapid reload and light crossbow is closest I can think of.

[flabort]

I don't know if there's stats for such a weapon, or a real "crossbow" that makes your strength a bigger factor.

A crossbow has a "latch", that in drawn up to, and then it always fires at the same strength. Therefore, a person's strength doesn't come into the equation. However, I could imagine a crossbow with multiple "latches" extending further and further back, so that stronger people can pull the string back into farther (and therefore "stronger") latches, and then a set of gears/pulleys to make it easier to pull back further, but release faster.

That would be much more in line with a "composite" crossbow, and you could probably make stats for it that add half your strength mod to damage, but I can't think of any feasible way that you could add your whole mod to it.

[Greenish]

I don't know if there's stats for such a weapon, or a real "crossbow" that makes your strength a bigger factor.I don't know, I image it just being that the crossbow can't be loaded by weaker people due to it's pull, which would be consistent with the faster loading, since you're obviously not using pulleys.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, hm, that doesn't quite impress me yet. Spending two feats to be roughly where the archer is without feat investment, that's akin to TWF vs THF. Although Crossbow Sniper does look interesting for Skirmishers.

Thanks for the pointer to CS.

BTW, what kind of stupid idea is the PHB Repeating Crossbow? You pay a feat to be able to shoot like an archer for one round... and then lose a round to reload. oO What a stupid deal.

Well, I'll have to see if I'm going to houserule crossbows that are on par with composite bows. Here's a first attempt:

Composite Crossbow (working title)
1d8 19-20/x2, 80ft (as light crossbow)
Martial weapon
Can be crafted with a stronger bow to accomodate a higher Strength bonus, which is then applied to damage.
If the user has at least the required Strength bonus, he can reload the crossbow as a free action by pulling a lever on the underside.
If the user's Strength is up to 2 points lower, it takes a full round action to reload, but the Str bonus applies to damage anyway. Persons with a Strength lower than this cannot use the composite crossbow.
The composite crossbow can be fitted with a bayonet.

Price: 100gp + 100gp per point of Str bonus

For purposes of other feats, the composite crossbow is treated as if it were a light crossbow.

P.S.: yes, the punch is in the bow itself. Just like in real life there are crossbows with, say, 50 lbs, 100 lbs, 150 lbs etc.. Though I am trying to avoid pulley cheese.

[Greenish]

Well, the advantage crossbows have over straight bows is being easier to use, as well as requiring less from the shooter (thanks to pulley system). Hence, simple weapons.

The repeating crossbows do suck, though.

[Flickerdart]

I wouldn't include the reload bit. There are many, many ways of getting free reloading from a crossbow, and obviating them all with something built into an item is not very fair.

[JaronK]

Note that it's possible to optimized Crossbows, but it does require some cheese (Aptitude Great Crossbows + Hand Crossbow Focus = free action reload on Great Crossbows). If you really went nuts you could throw in Roundabout Kick and Lightning Mace along with Improved Critical on a Splitting Collision Aptitude Great Crossbow for a LOT of machinegun fire. Don't forget to throw on a Gnomish Crossbow Sight and Crossbow Sniper. Expensive and high level, but it lets you use the thing like it's a modern machine gun.

JaronK

[Firechanter]

This crossbow is a Martial weapon. Essentially it's just a different trapping for a composite bow, to use a Savage Worlds term.

Normal crossbows are Simple weapons. You draw the cable, which takes some time, then you just point and click. No skill.
You can reload them faster by spending a feat, but for the same feat you could also have bought Martial Proficiency, so I don't really see the advantage there.
Or you can slap on some magical property, Quick-loading or what's it called. But that costs some money; maybe petty cash for PCs, but unaffordable for NPCs of the low-mid levels. Then again, you could also get bow proficiency via item. Lesser Bracer's of Archery are actually cheaper.

Normal bows are Martial weapons, because hitting stuff requires a lot more training. You have to stand in the proper stance, draw to the exactly same draw length every time, and aim more instinctively. In reality you can't really shoot both fast and accurate, but that's a concession that D&D makes to playability.

So, granted, there's no logical ingame reason why "my" composite crossbow should be a Martial weapon, since the process of shooting point-and-click is essentially the same as with a simple crossbow. Here the upgrade to Martial is just a metagame concession to weapon balance.
Warrior types can use it without problem, but a Cleric, Wizard or Rogue etc. can't use it, because they don't have the proficiency. That's why I consider it balanced enough.

[Bhaakon]

Crossbows already have draw strength built into the game. It might be easier to simply allow strong characters to draw a heavy crossbow as if it were a light one (maybe a specially built heavy crossbow, with a lever in place of the crank). Maybe even allow them to hand draw a heavy crossbow, if they're extremely strong (we're talking a about 1000 lb draw strengths here, so they'd have to have epic strength).

[Firechanter]

How do you arrive at 1000 lbs? oO
The most powerful modern crossbows, with pulley assist etc., top out at about 200 lbs.
Compared to that, typical modern hunting bows draw about 50-70 lbs.

[Bhaakon]

Modern crossbows are far more efficient than medieval ones; they get much, much more propulsion out of a given draw weight. There's a reason why high end medieval crossbows required cranks to draw.

[Firechanter]

A modern 150 lbs crossbow is also delivered with cranks, although that's optional. You can also draw them with a kind of hook, but only due to the pulleys. Historical "light" crossbows, i.e. the type that's drawn with a goat-foot, max out at about 120 lbs.
I know that some sources on the internet cite up to 1000 lbs draw weight for crank crossbows but I have my doubts about that.
And on the other hand: even if the 1000 lbs are true, that's definitely a different calibre than the lousy 1d10 a D&D heavy crossbow inflicts.

[TurtleKing]

Repeating xbows are not so bad. You get a clip holding 5 bolts with the reload from bolt to bolt in a clip as a free action. So it is possible to fire off 5 shots in quick succession before a round to change from one clip to another.

[Greenish]

Repeating xbows are not so bad. You get a clip holding 5 bolts with the reload from bolt to bolt in a clip as a free action. So it is possible to fire off 5 shots in quick succession before a round to change from one clip to another.Of course, if you're blowing a feat, might as well grab Rapid Reload for light crossbow. That way you don't have to waste every second or every third turn.

[Firechanter]

Exactly, that's why Repeating Crossbows suck.

And also, if you're blowing a feat, you might as well take Martial Prof: Longbow if you don't have it yet, or Exotic Prof: Greatbow, and get free action reload and more damage.
Hence my ambition to make a worthwhile crossbow (for martial classes).

[kardar233]

It's a shame that RXBs suck so much. They're iconic for the Warhammer Dark Elf campaign that we're playing right now, but even with the GM giving us proficiency as martial it's just not worth it especially with a +4 strength modifier. Though I feel a little bit bad for using a composite longbow rather than the RXB.

[RndmNumGen]

I think the idea behind crossbows is that they are easy for even a novice to pick up and use, yet a trained archer will always be able to fire faster, if not with greater strength, than a trained crossbowman. This is why Crossbows are only a simple weapon, while Bows are a martial.

If you're looking to balance out crossbows with bows, I would consider increasing the base damage AND the reload speed, then have weapon proficiency greatly reduce the reload speed(With rapid reload reducing it to free). Adding strength to damage doesn't really make any sense, as the entire idea of a crossbow is it holds the exact same draw strength until you pull the trigger. A strong crossbowman won't shoot any harder than a weak one, though he may be able to reload faster.

[Bhaakon]

I don't think the problem is so much with the crossbow being nerfed, as the long reload issue is drawn directly from reality. The problem is more that longbows and composite bows should probably be exotic weapons, to represent the extensive training needed to wield them effectively. Actually, if we want to be really realistic, most of the non-simple weapons should be "exotic"--particularly swords--but then you're basically going back to 2e weapon proficiencies.

[Firechanter]

They're iconic for the Warhammer Dark Elf campaign that we're playing right now, but even with the GM giving us proficiency as martial it's just not worth it especially with a +4 strength modifier. Though I feel a little bit bad for using a composite longbow rather than the RXB.

Similar problem here. Among other things, one of my players wants to play a Dwarf with a freaking big axe, but he also wants a ranged weapon as backup. Spending a feat for a backup weapon is stupid. Being able to shoot only one quarrel per round even at higher levels makes the backup weapon useless.

Also, I want to implement a military "Ranger" NPC unit. Sure, they could always use bows and it would be okay, but I was thinking that having them fight with crossbows would be a nice flavourful touch. Again, spending a feat on RR would mean deliberately gimping them.


I think the idea behind crossbows is that they are easy for even a novice to pick up and use

That's true, but it doesn't change the fact that putting any feat into a crossbow is wasted, since you can get a better weapon for the same cost, or no cost at all. :/

Okay, let's look at it that way:
damage is directly proportional to draw weight.
Reload time is a function of draw weight and user strength.
i.e. a stronger user can draw a bow of a given strength faster.
Conversely, the stronger user can draw a stronger bow in the same time that an average user can draw an average bow.

Let's say someone with Str 10 can draw a regular Light XB in 3 seconds (a move action). Then someone with Str 15 should certainly be able to draw the same crossbow more quickly. Or he could draw a heavier bow in the same time.
Hence my idea of offering crossbows with harder bows for stronger users.

(I keep saying "user", because I don't know a good English word. "Crossbowman" is so terribly clumsy, and "Archer" doesn't hit it. Why don't you have a proper short word for "someone who shoots", like "skytt" or "Schütze"?)


I don't think the problem is so much with the crossbow being nerfed, as the long reload issue is drawn directly from reality.

Yeah, but in reality "reloading" a bow isn't quite a free action, either.

Also, even the light crossbow should do _considerably_ more damage, if you imagine how strong its bow must be that it takes a move action to draw back.


The problem is more that longbows and composite bows should probably be exotic weapons

You'll laugh, that's actually how Conan D20 handles it. There's a "hunting bow" as simple weapon, which can be imagined as primitive bow such as used by the rainforest indios. All other bows (inclusing the Bossonian = English Longbow) are Exotic. However, all relevant races get weapon familiarity with their native bow type, and Babarians become proficient with all weapons anyway.

However, Mongoose dropped the ball when they made the crossbow a Martial weapon.

That said, the general principle of splitting weapons into Simple and Martial is what I consider one of the best things about the D&D combat system. I find few things as annoying as having to bother with elebentyfive proficiencies / skills for as many weapons.
(Exotic weapons as such are also a fine concept, the problem is merely that the majority of EWs isn't worth it.)
"Martial" already implies that you have received extensive weapon training. Sure, there's more to sword fighting than just sticking the pointy end in the general direction of the enemy, but it's not rocket science, either. Similar with other martial weapons.

Now a Spiked Chain / Rope Dart / Meteor Hammer, _that's_ verily an Exotic weapon if I ever saw one. If you look at vids of those, you understand why those cost a feat in D&D.

Anyway, we digress. Crossbows, anyone?

[Provengreil]

Well, the advantage crossbows have over straight bows is being easier to use, as well as requiring less from the shooter (thanks to pulley system). Hence, simple weapons.

The repeating crossbows do suck, though.

repeaters were leftover from 3.0, where you could only use rapid reload once per round no matter what. they were better there, but left unchanged to late versions.

[Gnoman]

Here's a practical solution. Discard all existing PHP crossbows. Replace them with the following:

Simple Ranged Weapons

Crossbow
The crossbow resembles a stout bowstave attached to a frame. For a number of reasons, it is possible to make them more powerful than a standard bow for a given size. All crossbows have a required STR modifier to reload as a move action. Characters with a modifier two points lower than the RSM require a full-round action to reload. Characters with a modifier three points or more below the RSM cannot load the weapon, but can fire without penalty. If a character has a STR mod 2 points higher than the RSM, the character can reload as a swift action (even during a full-attack). With 4 or more points above the RSM, a character can reload as a free action.

Crossbow, Hand
1d6 piercing
30ft RI
RSM -2

A small one-handed crossbow.

Crossbow, Hunting
1d8 Piercing
80ft RI
RSM 0

This crossbow is intended more for the procurement of food than combat.

Crossbow, Light
1d10 Piercing
120ft RI
RSM 2

The standard combat crossbow

Crossbow, Heavy
1d12 piercing
140ft RI
RSM 4
A heavy crossbow for large or well-armored targets.

Crossbow, Siege
1d20 Piercing
200ft RI
RSM 6

The immense draw of this weapon makes it nearly useless to most warriors.



Thoughts?

[Bhaakon]

Yeah, but in reality "reloading" a bow isn't quite a free action, either.

Also, even the light crossbow should do _considerably_ more damage, if you imagine how strong its bow must be that it takes a move action to draw back.

No, knocking an arrow and drawing isn't that speedy in real life, but it's still 2-3 times faster than reloading a crossbow. Like I said, the real problem here is that bows are overpowered.

Also, there's more to the comparison than just the strength of the draw. Bows have much longer pulls than crossbows, which means that a good longbow or composite bow (which, if I'm googling correctly, could reach the 150-200 lb draw range) have more distance over which to accelerate their arrows and ultimately could match all but the heaviest hand-held crossbow in power. The crossbow's real advantages are ease of use, accuracy, and that they can remain drawn and loaded for long periods (bows can't be strung, let alone drawn, for extended periods without being compromised).

[Greenish]

No, knocking an arrow and drawing isn't that speedy in real life, but it's still 2-3 times faster than reloading a crossbow. Like I said, the real problem here is that bows are overpowered.Not compared to melee.

[Bhaakon]

Not compared to melee.

The game would probably be alot more boring if it weren't. Even the best [sane] sword fighter in real life wouldn't take on a bear in melee.

[Greenish]

The game would probably be alot more boring if it weren't. Even the best [sane] sword fighter in real life wouldn't take on a bear in melee.You're not supposed to be sane in D&D, you're supposed to be a PC. :smalltongue:

[Firechanter]

First off, sidetrack: bow draw weights.
150-200 lbs are highly dubious. _Maybe_ the most modern compound bows with pulley system can get in those regions, but those don't really count.
As for historical bows, there is simply not one surviving specimen that could be tested for draw weight. Often-cited figures of >100 lbs on an english longbow are derived from finding that some surviving _arrows_ have such a strong spine they would be suitable to >100 lbs. But that makes the huge presumption that they actually custom-made the arrows to perfectly fit their spine to the bow's strength, and again, I find this dubious.
Especially seeing how a "too strong" spine isn't as bad as a too weak one, so when in doubt, always take a stiffer arrow. (Arrows with a too weak spine can shatter upon release, and even take the bow with them when the energy stored in the bow arms has nowhere to go.)

Secondly, even 50 pounds are already quite heavy and considered suitable for hunting. Very few people could even draw 70 lbs. I know exactly one person, a 2-metre bear of a man, who actually does shoot a 100 lbs bow. I doubt that entire armies had access to thousands of such half-ogres in an era of malnutrition.

Thirdly, drawing a bow requires the correct technique. I have two ~60 lbs bows, one longbow and one recurve (well, 55#@28" but I have longer draw) and I can shoot them, but I get tired after a while. One of my friends is much stronger than me (I'd say, about three times stronger) and he can't even draw them because he isn't an archer. That aforementioned "bear" _is_ an archer so he has both the technique and the tremendous strength required to draw 100 lbs. Hence, Martial weapon.


Here's a practical solution. Discard all existing PHP crossbows. Replace them with the following: <snip>

The immense draw of this weapon makes it nearly useless to most warriors.

Thoughts?

Not bad. Except I don't like the highly random single-die damage for the stronger crossbows. If you don't want to incorporate Str modifiers, I'd make the heavy 2d6 and the siege 3-4d6.
Another thing I've been thinking about was to allow crossbows make ranged touch attacks, since they are armour piercing. That would make them much more useful, and actually simulate their RL role. Then they'd have a disctinct niche that sets them apart from bows, and would make spending feats on them actually worthwhile.
Okay, "Ranged Touch" may be a bit too powerful, what we'd need is another quick-to-use rule that simulates piercing heavy armour.

[Bhaakon]

Secondly, even 50 pounds are already quite heavy and considered suitable for hunting. Very few people could even draw 70 lbs. I know exactly one person, a 2-metre bear of a man, who actually does shoot a 100 lbs bow. I doubt that entire armies had access to thousands of such half-ogres in an era of malnutrition.

I said could reach, not averaged. As you say, extreme specimens can operate such bows and while I'm sure your friend is an avid archer, is he practicing hours every day like a good man at arms? The evidence on the skeletons of period archers suggest that they were pushing the limits of human anatomy in their draw strength.

It's also my understanding that estimated draw weights are based on actual bows recovered from the wreck of the Mary Rose, not just arrow measurements.



Thirdly, drawing a bow requires the correct technique. I have two ~60 lbs bows, one longbow and one recurve (well, 55#@28" but I have longer draw) and I can shoot them, but I get tired after a while. One of my friends is much stronger than me (I'd say, about three times stronger) and he can't even draw them because he isn't an archer.

I don't see the argument here. Yes, you'd get tired drawing a bow eventually (I've some experience with this myself, though not as much as you appear to have), but most of the time you'll run out of targets before it becomes a real factor, or your opponent will close long before you get severely fatigued. You'd likely run out of arrows before RoF was compromised to the point of a cranquin-drawn crossbow (and, of course, it's also tiring to repeatedly reload a crossbow under pressure, even with mechanical advantage). Nevermind that the ability to shoot alot of arrows without getting tired would be the very least of the extraordinary abilities granted to a PC.

[Firechanter]

Ah, the last bit was not meant as argument, just a bit of trivia, and I wanted to make clear that I am not that strong compared to others. Mostly that shooting a bow requires some training, hence Martial category is fine.

As for the Mary Rose bows, I've also read that we can't tell for sure how the wood may have been affected over the centuries. It may have gotten softer or harder. But it's certainly true that medieval archers did push themselves more - that's a very good point. Nowadays everyone is so concerned with their health they stop shooting when their shoulder hurts. Luxury! =D

[Allanimal]

Added cred if it includes a melee option, i.e. a bayonet.
Any ideas?

the magic item compendium has the bladed crossbow. Works as +1 heavy crossbow or +1 battleaxe.

[Firechanter]

Ah yes, my mistake: I should have included in the request that it should be a mundane weapon, available to NPCs that can't afford a +2 magic weapon.

I guess to keep the houseruling to a minimum, I'll stick to the Light Crossbow, but make it available with built-in Str modifier. A weaker user can't use Rapid Reload and takes a full round action to reload. For a user with the required Str, reload as Move Action, or Free Action with Rapid Reload.
At least the crossbow hunters can also take Crossbow Sniper, which should give them some return on their effort.