Gestalt and BAB: Am I misunderstanding this?

[Kaje]

It seems to me that if you gestalt two 3/4 BAB classes, and add a single level of a full BAB class at level 1, you end up with a full BAB build. Am I doing something wrong or is this correct?

Fighter 1/Rogue 19//Cleric 20 = full BAB?

[RaginChangeling]

It seems to me that if you gestalt two 3/4 BAB classes, and add a single level of a full BAB class at level 1, you end up with a full BAB build. Am I doing something wrong or is this correct?

Fighter 1/Rogue 19//Cleric 20 = full BAB?

You should be using Partial BaB when you use Gestalt, but if you're notthen by Raw you are correct.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You use the BAB of whichever side is higher.

For example: with your build, you take the higher BAB of either a fighter1/rogue 19, or a cleric 20. Since the BAB of a fighter 1/rogue 19 is higher, you use that BAB.

[Cog]

That isn't strictly accurate either. You use whichever progression is best at every level individually. At each level, your BAB advances by .5 (for classes like Wizard), .75 (classes like Cleric), or 1 (Fighter). At each level, take whichever is highest, add that to your total, and (as is the default in 3.5) round down anything that's less than a whole number.

If you total the sides, then a Wizard 10/Fighter 10 // Barbarian 10/sorcerer 10 would have BAB 15. Following the best progression at each level, it would have BAB 20.

[No brains]

Just in case I can say anything more clearly than another person for a change...

The answer is no.

You would have a bab of +1 at first level when you are a fighter//cleric, but when you start taking levels of rogue, your bab goes up by .75 each level.

I think you messed up when you assumed that taking 1 level of fighter would forever give you +1 bab for the rogue side of the build.

The thing to remember in gestalt is that you take the better numbers from each class per level. You do not add them. If you did, a warblade20//fighter20 would have a BAB of +40.

[Greenish]

That isn't strictly accurate either. You use whichever progression is best at every level individually. At each level, your BAB advances by .5 (for classes like Wizard), .75 (classes like Cleric), or 1 (Fighter). At each level, take whichever is highest, add that to your total, and (as is the default in 3.5) round down anything that's less than a whole number.Fractional BAB is not the default, even if it's widely used (and the better option anyhow, in my opinion).

[Cog]

Fractional BAB is not the default, even if it's widely used (and the better option anyhow, in my opinion).
Fractional BAB is presented as a sidebar to the gestalt rules in the printed version. The use of "progression" is more consistent with a constant mathematical change than a list of numbers as well.

[IthroZada]

CustServ certainly agrees that you would wind up with full BAB. I myself would not rule that way, because as much as I enjoy Gestalt, it's already powerful enough.

[Kantolin]

So thus (mostly summing up the above points):

By RAW, you get the best BAB improvement each level. So yes, your example would have 20BAB by level 20. This would also happen if you went say Fighter 1 / Wizard 19 // Sorceror 20, essentially alternating wizard and sorceror - BAB 20, by RAW.

Most people, however, agree that this is too powerful (or alternately, too liable for silly), and prefer to go for the fractional BAB variant as well. Thus, for a level in which you take wizard//sorceror, your BAB increases by 0.5. For a level in which you take Cleric/Sorceror, BAB increases by .75.

[Bang!]

20/20 BA Aasimar Wizard//Sorcerer would be hilarious.

[danzibr]

This was debated quite a bit on a thread I made.

Final conclusion: +20 BAB with non-fractional rules, not +20 BAB with fractional rules.

For the player non-fractional is obviously better, but gestalt seemed to be intended with fractional.

EDIT: Basically, what Cog said.

[Kantolin]

Not really - also by RAW, there's no special qualifier for level adjustment, so it more or less applies to 'both sides' as there are no 'sides' in gestalt. So your Aasimar has only 19 levels of both wizard and sorceror, and 9BAB unless he multiclasses somewhere.

Most people don't do that either as it's realy harsh, but most people also don't allow for a wizard/sorceror to have 20 BAB, so I suppose your mileage may vary. :P

[Runestar]

Not to mention your saves would be quite insane as well, since they would be improving every level...:smallcool:

[JaronK]

Fractional BAB is definitely important with Gestalt, or you get weird things like this. Even using a PrC can muck things up... a Wizard 5 with a 10 level half BAB PrC and then a 5 level half BAB PrC gestalted with Archivist 20 is all half rate BAB the whole way... yet has a BAB of 17 at level 20.

With Fractionals, this problem vanishes.

JaronK

[Tokiko Mima]

Plus, the problem of not using fractions with gestalt is even more serious when you get into saving throws. It's trivial to end up with base saves that exceed your level or are below even what a poor save progression would grant. This is even an issue to a lesser extent with non-gestalt multi-classing, throwing a monkey wrench into the whole saving throw/DC system.

[Mayhem]

If a character has more than one class (see Multiclass
Characters, page 59), the base attack bonuses for each class are
cumulative.


Base Attack Bonus: Choose the better progression from the
two classes

How exactly will 1 level of fighter grant you a permanent full BaB? That makes no sense. That would mean one side of you gestalt is cleric/fighter and the other one is rogue.. I don't get it, it's like manbearpig. Am I reading it wrong?

[Cog]

The idea is to be Ftr 1 / Wiz 19 // Sorc 20. First level, Ftr increases your BAB by one. Second level, you get the Sorc 2 increase. Third level, you get the Wiz 2 increase.

If you take a very general sense of the word "progression" and ignore that the fractional rules are presented alongside the gestalt rules, it makes sense.

[Mayhem]

Ignoring the fractional progression though, I still can't figure that out.

[RaginChangeling]

Ignoring the fractional progression though, I still can't figure that out.

Fractional is an optional rule, by RAW you advance by the chart regardless of underlying math logic. This can lead to 0 BaB from going 3/4 or 1/2 BaB or the Gestalt nonsense. Most people adopt fractional BaB and Saves, but it is technically optional.

[John Cribati]

Let me get this straight...

{table]Level|Fighter|Wizard|Sorc|Total Bab
1|+1|--|...|1
2|--|...|+1|2
3|--|+1|...|3
4|--|...|+1|4
[/table] and so on.

That's... pretty broken actually.

[Cog]

I'm not sure what you're trying to do with that table. Half the numbers match fractional rules and half match integer-list rules.

[John Cribati]

That's how the table works, according to RAW. Fighter BAB increases by 1 (i.e. progresses) every level. Wizard and Sorcerer BAB Progresses on every even level. Therefore, under all techincality, by Taking Fighter 1/Wizard 19//Sorc 20, your Bab will progress every level.

[Mayhem]

Fractional is an optional rule, by RAW you advance by the chart regardless of underlying math logic. This can lead to 0 BaB from going 3/4 or 1/2 BaB or the Gestalt nonsense. Most people adopt fractional BaB and Saves, but it is technically optional.

I know this, and it still doesn't explain why 1 level of fighter gives a permanent full BAB.

Edit: That table does help a bit.
Edit2: Man that's ultra cheese.

[RaginChangeling]

I know this, and it still doesn't explain why 1 level of fighter gives a permanent full BAB.

Half BaB classes get an increase in BaB on even Levels.

Taking 19 levels in Sorcerer after 1 level in Fighter makes every level an odd level for Wizard or Sorcerer.

So at level 2 its level 2 for Wizards +1 BaB. Level 3 is level 2 for Sorcerer +1 BaB. You take the best of each side each level.

[Greenish]

That's how the table works, according to RAW.Except by the default rules you can't gain 0.5 points of BAB. It's 1 or 0.

[Cog]

Add up your numbers vertically and you'll see what I mean. Your fourth-level Sorc would come out with 3 BAB (.5+1+.5+1). Anyway, "progression" generally doesn't refer to BAB elsewhere, so the use of that particular word here is meaningful, and once again, fractional rules are presented as a sidebar to the gestalt rules. If they were meant to be separate, they'd have their own section.

[Mayhem]

That's ultra cheese :smallyuk:. You guys should sit in a corner and think about what you have done.

Still, I don't think that works quite that way.
Right?



Right?

[Hiro Protagonest]

That's ultra cheese :smallyuk:. You guys should sit in a corner and think about what you have done.

Still, I don't think that works quite that way.
Right?



Right?

*sits in a corner and thinks about what I've done*

THIS IS TOTALLY AWESOME!!! FULL BAB, NEARLY FULL CASTING, MARTIAL WEAPON PROFICIENCY, THIS TOTALLY GUARANTEES WIN!!!

[Mayhem]

You know it relies completely on the word 'progression' being used as "accumulation" instead of meaning progression. I'm no dictionary, but that doesn't compute for me.

[Cog]

You know it relies completely on the word 'progression' being used as "accumulation" instead of meaning progression. I'm no dictionary, but that doesn't compute for me.
Then you are recognizing that different words mean different things, and you have nothing to worry about. :smallamused:

[RaginChangeling]

You know it relies completely on the word 'progression' being used as "accumulation" instead of meaning progression. I'm no dictionary, but that doesn't compute for me.

For 3rd edition, Wizards wanted to make it easy for everyone to Multiclass. By RAW, when you level up it only takes that level into account, everything is looked up on a table. You don't use the underlying mathematical progression, you just look on a table to see what you get each level. Therefore progression=/= accumulation because the past and future literally do not matter.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

the BAB of this build is 15.25, so its no better than a full cleric.

just because they increase on different levels, does not mean you increase your bab. You take the better of the two class at the level you are own, so no wiz//sorc at bab +20.

[Cog]

@RaginChangeling:

That is the default for basic 3.5, yes.

Gestalt is not basic 3.5, and it changes this.

[Kalirren]

This is a really dumb part of Gestalt when not used with fractional BAB and saves, yes.

I have a personal case of suffering against this because my current DM uses this broken system for both us and her NPCs. None of the saves for spells scale correctly.

BAB isn't even the worst of it. With saves, you can easily have some sort of strange level-offset that grants the gestalt of two poor-save classes to progress in a save quicker (+4/6 levels)than the good save of a non-gestalt character (+3/6 levels).

[Mayhem]

For 3rd edition, Wizards wanted to make it easy for everyone to Multiclass. By RAW, when you level up it only takes that level into account, everything is looked up on a table. You don't use the underlying mathematical progression, you just look on a table to see what you get each level. Therefore progression=/= accumulation because the past and future literally do not matter.
I do own the 3.5 player's handbook you know :smallconfused:.

And that's not true, it doesn't only take that level into account- it takes all your levels into account and you have to measure that against the tables. Otherwise the wizard would have 0 BAB at level 20, because half of 1 rounded down is 0.

Look at this:

Base Attack Bonus: On an attack roll, apply the bonus from the appropriate column on Table 3–1 according to the class to which the character belongs.
*snip*
If a character has more than one class (see Multiclass Characters, page 59), the base attack bonuses for each class are cumulative.
That last part is the weird thing, but it can only gimp characters.

[TOZ]

Buh. :smallconfused:

That's retarded. :thog:

[Ormur]

But the difference is that gestalt specific the progression as a base for determining numbers, not the tables as non-fractional RAW. But yes, fractional bonuses make a lot more sense in all circumstances.

[Mayhem]

But the difference is that gestalt specific the progression as a base for determining numbers, not the tables as non-fractional RAW. But yes, fractional bonuses make a lot more sense in all circumstances.

But even then the OP would have to choose at second level from cleric 2 or rogue 1 progressions. That means you'd use at 20th level 1fighter/20cleric which is +16, rather than fighter1/rogue 19 which is +15. The BAB doesn't accumulate, it still uses progression tables from the PHB. This is assuming you treat each class as having a unique progression, which the PHB pg 22 says isn't the case.

And there's this:

Base Attack Bonus: Choose the better progression from the two classes.

edit: okay so it finally dawned on me that you can replace d&d's jargon meaning of BAB progression with the layman's meaning of progression, netting the unholy abomination that caused this thread. Well, I don't think jargon is interchangable with lay terms.

[Ormur]

My interpretation of "progression" (of of which there are three for BAB) is that a wizard gains a +1 every other level and a fighter a +1 every level. A fighter1/wizard19//sorc20 picks the fighter progression at first level because it's better but the sorcerer and wizard have the same BAB progression so there's nothing to choose between at levels 2-20, only a +1 every other level (or a +0.5 rounded down every level). The tables aren't the progression, they just show the results.

[No brains]

Let me get this straight...

{table]Level|Fighter|Wizard|Sorc|Total Bab
1|+1|--|...|1
2|--|...|+1|2
3|--|+1|...|3
4|--|...|+1|4
[/table] and so on.

That's... pretty broken actually.

There's an error here! This table assumes you get a BAB of 1.5 at first level. You only take the better numbers in gestalt, not add them together.

I guess this is just someone trying to abuse non-fractional BABs... Just make sure your caster level keeps up so you can cast protection from flying books.