iron heart surge: questions and musings

[Darth Stabber]

Can iron heart surge:

Expel a vestige - "I don't like tenebrous anymore, IHS!"
Cure diseases - "you have cancer, might I suggest levels in warblade?"
Feed you - "I derive all nutrition from being awesome" (iron heart surge away hunger penalties)
Make you younger - "I used IHS to banish wrinkles" (aging is an effect)

If so a martial script of IHS is the best item ever.

[Alleran]

Any effect, from what I recall (AFB at the moment).

You may as well put on a pair of these (http://gbatemp.net/pix/172638/TEH%20GLASSES.png) when you use it. Or shout "CROM!" to the heavens, either or.

[TroubleBrewing]

My personal favorite is ending the sun because it's giving you sunburn.

[Darth Stabber]

So I hear Crom mentioned a lot in reference to IHS, and those glasses all over the place. Can somebody clue me in on what those are references to.

[Dhavaer]

So I hear Crom mentioned a lot in reference to IHS, and those glasses all over the place. Can somebody clue me in on what those are references to.

Crom is Conan's patron deity. The glasses are from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan, I think.

[HalfDragonCube]

My personal favorite is ending the sun because it's giving you sunburn.

And when you begin freezing because there is no sun?

You would have to use it again to stop the absence of a heat source from chilling you. Would it then create a heat source?

[Greenish]

Crom is Conan's patron deity. The glasses are from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan, I think.Conan the Barbarian (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConanTheBarbarian) and TTGL (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TengenToppaGurrenLagann) in tvtropes, cancel your planned weekend activities.

The former is well worth reading, the latter well worth watching.

[Edit]: Also, the movie where Arnold Schwarzenegger punches a camel out is actually pretty good, in the way some bad movies are good.

[EternalMelon]

And when you begin freezing because there is no sun?

You would have to use it again to stop the absence of a heat source from chilling you. Would it then create a heat source?

IHS let's you do anything at all. Anything. At. All.

[Lateral]

[Edit]: Also, the movie where Arnold Schwarzenegger punches a camel out is actually pretty good, in the way some bad movies are good.
Conan the Barbarian was pretty good- fueled by corny acting and big muscles, sure, but it was still good. The sequel falls into So Bad it's Good territory, since what makes it half-decent is the Governator's hilariously cheesy acting. :smalltongue:
Do not mention Red Sonja to me. EVER. There is no such thing.


IHS let's you do anything at all. Anything. At. All.
No, it lets you stop anything at all. The only real difference is that if you want to do something, you'll have to word it cleverly. :smallwink:

[Darth Stabber]

Well, I guess I must ask if other than aging my other uses would fall under a reasonable interpretation that would fly past a reasonable gm.

[true_shinken]

Also, the movie where Arnold Schwarzenegger punches a camel out is actually pretty good, in the way some bad movies are good.
Greenish, what's best in life?

[Lateral]

First two, I'd allow. The third... doesn't make sense, but it's really not a big deal, so whatever.

This is all IMHO, 'course.

[Cespenar]

Well, I guess I must ask if other than aging my other uses would fall under a reasonable interpretation that would fly past a reasonable gm.

I wouldn't allow them, if it counts for anything. My interpretation of "a duration of 1 or more rounds" allows for specific effects, mostly as a result from a spell or a special attack. Your examples don't have 'durations' as the term applies in D&D, no matter the meaning of the word in real life.

[Greenish]

Greenish, what's best in life?Soft toilet paper.

[Metahuman1]

If IHS let's you stop anything at all, does that include running out of actions during your initiative? If so, I have an UBER idea for a Warblade// Rogue/Scout Gestalt!

[Greenish]

If IHS let's you stop anything at all, does that include running out of actions during your initiative?"[O]ne spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you with the duration of one or more rounds".

Take it as you wish.

[EternalMelon]

"[O]ne spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you with the duration of one or more rounds".

Take it as you wish.
Warblade with IHS: The Effect of reality is affecting me, for one or more rounds. I wish I could change that... Wait...

[TOZ]

IHS let's you do anything at all. Anything. At. All.

Depending on DM compliance. :smalltongue:

[BillyBobJoe]

Here's my opinion on IHS:

When I'm sad, I stop being sad and become awesome instead. True story.

[HalfDragonCube]

Things to stop list:
Gravity
Rotation of the planet you are on
The sun
Life
Not being on the plane you want to be
An object you touch not being made of diamonds

[Zombimode]

IHS is a perfect example of munchkin reading and the forum phenomena of people just repeating what other people said without reading the actual rules text.

So lets do this:
"When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect or other condition affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. This effect end immediately." Bolding by myself.
Now, "spell" and "condition" are very hard defined gameplay terms. There is a list of conditions in the rule books. Like "exhausted". Everthing not on this list is not a condition. Likewise with spells. The PhB explains what a spell is and its characteristics. There are also spell lists. Everthing not on these lists is not a spell. Maybe I have overlooked something but The Sun does not appear on either the list of conditions nor on any spell list.
This leaves us with "effect". This is also a game term, but a much more loosly defined. In general effects are evoked by spells, SLAs, class features, feats and so on. Also usually when an effect ends, the entity who has caused the effect doesnt vanish too (when the effects of a spell wear out, the spell caster is unaffected by this).
Thus even if someone would follow the very questionable interpretation that the heat of the sunrays are an effect in this game term sense, ending this effect would absolutely not, in any shape or form, "end" the Sun.

Even if you disagree that "effect" in the qouted rule text is a game term, going by its normal meaning The Sun is an object or something, but definately not an effect or condition.

So "ending the sun" like often quoted is completely made up and has NO basis whatsoever in the actual rules of IHS.

Im not saying that IHS has a good wording. It has problems, but ending suns and similar stuff is not one of them.

[TOZ]

Things to stop list:
Gravity
Rotation of the planet you are on


Better add inertia to that list unless you want to fly off into space. :smallbiggrin:

[Epsilon Rose]

I'd actually probably allow all of them (even the aging) with the adendum that while you're ignoring the temporary penalties for aging and starving you're still getting older and using up energy so when you get to the point where you'd die you'll still die and when you try and correct things (anti-aging or eating) you have to go from the point you're actually at not the point you feel like you're at.

[Hirax]

I've never really encountered anyone in real life try to pull anything farfetched with IHS, but if I were put in a situation where I felt compelled to draw lines, I'd say that it can only remove things such as sickened, shaken, compulsion effects, and even paralysis, but not area effects, notably anti magic fields. I agree very much with Zombimode's opening line.

[Lateral]

Actually, the Q&A established that IHS can end an AMF. :smallconfused:

[TroubleBrewing]

IHS is a perfect example of munchkin reading and the forum phenomena of people just repeating what other people said without reading the actual rules text.


I'm certainly not suggesting that you can actually end the sun with this maneuver. I don't think anyone else is, either. It's really just a bit of tongue-in-cheek referencing.

[The Glyphstone]

IHS is a perfect example of munchkin reading and the forum phenomena of people just repeating what other people said without reading the actual rules text.

So lets do this:
"When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect or other condition affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. This effect end immediately." Bolding by myself.
Now, "spell" and "condition" are very hard defined gameplay terms. There is a list of conditions in the rule books. Like "exhausted". Everthing not on this list is not a condition. Likewise with spells. The PhB explains what a spell is and its characteristics. There are also spell lists. Everthing not on these lists is not a spell. Maybe I have overlooked something but The Sun does not appear on either the list of conditions nor on any spell list.
This leaves us with "effect". This is also a game term, but a much more loosly defined. In general effects are evoked by spells, SLAs, class features, feats and so on. Also usually when an effect ends, the entity who has caused the effect doesnt vanish too (when the effects of a spell wear out, the spell caster is unaffected by this).
Thus even if someone would follow the very questionable interpretation that the heat of the sunrays are an effect in this game term sense, ending this effect would absolutely not, in any shape or form, "end" the Sun.

Even if you disagree that "effect" in the qouted rule text is a game term, going by its normal meaning The Sun is an object or something, but definately not an effect or condition.

So "ending the sun" like often quoted is completely made up and has NO basis whatsoever in the actual rules of IHS.

Im not saying that IHS has a good wording. It has problems, but ending suns and similar stuff is not one of them.

This is why the forums need a sarcasm font. I'd give you $20 if anyone in this thread would seriously advocate ending the weak nuclear force based on IHS's wording.

[Lateral]

This is why the forums need a sarcasm font. I'd give you $20 if anyone in this thread would seriously advocate ending the weak nuclear force based on IHS's wording.

Or the strong nuclear force. Make everything quarks.

[The Glyphstone]

Or the strong nuclear force. Make everything quarks.

...I always get those mixed up.

[tiercel]

This is why the forums need a sarcasm font. I'd give you $20 if anyone in this thread would seriously advocate ending the weak nuclear force based on IHS's wording.

Well... if you put it that way...

Say your DM has dug up some old-school Blackmoor adventures and the PCs unwittingly venture into a "poisonous danger room" (leaky spaceship reactor) and are facing penalties and negative status effects because it. Beta radiation from radioactivity is, of course, a result of the weak nuclear force, so when Conan yells "BY CROM!"....

If you want to get rid of the strong nuclear force instead, then you'd probably just need alpha radiation from your radioactive source. Conan can, of course, already end gravity (when he is inconvenienced against flying opponents) and electromagnetic radiation (when he is taking sunburn status ailments from excessive sun), so he can quite happily expunge all the fundamental forces of nature even before he undoes all of reality.

Woo hoo. Free pizza tonight! :smalltongue:

[Lateral]

...Or just get hit by something made of matter (or antimatter, for that matter). Stupid strong nuclear force, binding quarks together to make up baryons that make up atoms of iron (and carbon) that form a sword sticking out of my gut. I wish it would go away. *IHS*

[Darth Stabber]

I wouldn't allow them, if it counts for anything. My interpretation of "a duration of 1 or more rounds" allows for specific effects, mostly as a result from a spell or a special attack. Your examples don't have 'durations' as the term applies in D&D, no matter the meaning of the word in real life.

Actually being bound to a vestige has a duration of 24 hours (ie the pact ends 24 hours later whether you want it to or not). So even if you require defined durations, it meets that requirement. That was the one I really wanted to know about, because it makes a warblade dip very attractive. If you make a bad pact, you can IHS it away and not get the penalty to pact making checks that you would otherwise get from the expel vestige feat. Or you could use it to swap out vestiges every so often, and gain a lot more flexibility throughout the day (since expel vestige is limited to something like once per day I think).

[ffone]

I find it odd that Conan is considered a classic example of a low-magic and low-power setting, yet the 'BY CROM!' thing seems to always get cited as a justification of Iron Heart Surge, one of the most uber, fantastical, and clearly magic-by-any-other-name things in ToB. As if 'BY CROM!' couldn't merely correspond to Conan initiating a barbarian rage of making an will save in the ordinary way, like a real man.

[Cespenar]

Actually being bound to a vestige has a duration of 24 hours (ie the pact ends 24 hours later whether you want it to or not). So even if you require defined durations, it meets that requirement. That was the one I really wanted to know about, because it makes a warblade dip very attractive. If you make a bad pact, you can IHS it away and not get the penalty to pact making checks that you would otherwise get from the expel vestige feat. Or you could use it to swap out vestiges every so often, and gain a lot more flexibility throughout the day (since expel vestige is limited to something like once per day I think).

Still, a vestige doesn't seem like an 'effect' to me. It's the reason.

[shadow_archmagi]

I find it odd that Conan is considered a classic example of a low-magic and low-power setting, yet the 'BY CROM!' thing seems to always get cited as a justification of Iron Heart Surge, one of the most uber, fantastical, and clearly magic-by-any-other-name things in ToB. As if 'BY CROM!' couldn't merely correspond to Conan initiating a barbarian rage of making an will save in the ordinary way, like a real man.


I find it odd that you think Iron Heart Surge is clearly magic, when you then go ahead and say that it's pretty much the same as a will save.

That's basically what it is, when you actually get down to it. "You've been hit by MIND CRUSH! Be incapacitated for four rounds"

"No. I'm too angry. I'll just ignore the effects of it."


I do wish that people would shut up about ending the weak nuclear force, because it's that sort of talk that gives ToB a reputation for being broken.

[Eldan]

Well, it's in the same domain as using Prestidigitation to incinerate the atmosphere: no one would allow it, as it's clearly silly and not intended.

[HalfDragonCube]

Better add inertia to that list unless you want to fly off into space. :smallbiggrin:

Imagine the xp you would get for killing a planet! Just have someone on another plane ready with a scroll of True Ressurection.


Well, it's in the same domain as using Prestidigitation to incinerate the atmosphere: no one would allow it, as it's clearly silly and not intended.

How? I could flavour the atmosphere nicely and make it clean.

[Starbuck_II]

IHS is like Minor Wish by any other name.
The wording matters to what you want to end, but sheer awesomeness/ stubbornness is what stops the effect.

[ffone]

I find it odd that you think Iron Heart Surge is clearly magic, when you then go ahead and say that it's pretty much the same as a will save.

Ummmm, no.

What I said was that the the flavor of 'BY CROM!' can be captured by a Will save. Not that a Will save has any mechanical resemblance to IHS.

I was likening a Will save and 'By CROM!'. Not a Will save and IHS.





That's basically what it is, when you actually get down to it. "You've been hit by MIND CRUSH! Be incapacitated for four rounds"

"No. I'm too angry. I'll just ignore the effects of it."

For enchantment effects, the fluff of IHS could be potentially similar to that of, say, rogue's Slippery Mind (get a 2nd Will save) - the thing that makes the necessary fluff for IHS so open-ended, and the effect so clearly fantastical and small-m magical, is that it can suddenly stop such a wide variety of things (poison, disease, blindness, curses, etc.), even if we stop short of the 'putting out out the sun' interpretation. You could replace the ability with "at will, you can cast Break Enchantment, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, ..... on yourself, and you always make any caster level checks that may be neededv s the original ability", and overall you'd be weakening it.

IHS covers such a ridiculously broad list of effects (most of http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm , and more) that while we could say its fluff for typical enchantment effects is like that of a Will save or slippery mind....IHS, in totality, is much, much, much, more. It's broader, and it's more uber - a Will save denotes that your will actually overcome it, and you had some chance of failing, and it depends on your ability (wisdom, base will save, buffs and magic gear). IHS is just 'it ends' - no save needed, no ability check, etc. You desire it to be so, and so it is.

I like the previous poster's characterization of it as 'Minor Wish'.

[Keld Denar]

Do note that unforunately, 2/3 of the items listed on the conditions page are actually NOT endable by IHS, due to the fact that you have to be able to move (ToB pg 38) AND take a standard action (ToB pg 68) in order to initiate any maneuver. That means you can't end Nausiated (no standard), Paralyzed (no movement), Frightened (no standard), Panic'd (no standard), Cowering (no standard), Dazed (no standard), Stunned (no standard), Confused (no standard unless you roll "act normally" and aren't attacked), Petrified (no standard), Turned (no standard, assuming you are undead). Also, debatably Charmed and/or Dominated, since you either don't realize you are under the effects or don't have control of your own actions.

That pretty much just leaves Blinded, Deafened, Sickened, Scared, Fatigued, Entangled, Exhausted, Energy Drained, Ability Damaged, and Ability Drained among the conditions listed, and Ability Damaged is debatable, since you can't normally IHS away HP damage.

Do note, however, that if you pick up Mad Foam Rager (PHBII), you can delay negative effects on you for 1 full round, giving you enough time to IHS away the condition before it actually affects you. That opens up the list to pretty much any effect.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, but doesn't Rage prevent you from using abilities that require focus/concentration, such as maneuvers?

[Keld Denar]

No. Rage prevents you from using SKILLS that require concentration. You couldn't use Ruby Nightmare Blade while raging, since it requires you to make a Concentration check.

The text is here:

While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats.

Using most manuevers requires no more patience or concentration than swinging an axe, and barbarians have no problem swinging axes.


Unlike with spells or psionic powers, you need not concentrate to initiate a maneuver or stance.

[TimeWizard]

Woo hoo. Free pizza tonight! :smalltongue:

IHS: Legal Obligation to Pay For Goods.