Help please - melee build breaking my brain!

[serrakin]

Tools allowed: Core 3.5 + Complete XX series. That's pretty much it.

Starting Stats:
STR 16
DEX 15
CON 15
INT 13
WIS 14
CHA 12

Build so far@level 7: Human Bard1(skillpoints)/Fighter4/Barb1(pounce*)/DD1 (PrC); medium size
Intent: to add more DD levels(to 10, I guess?) + ??; Focus on melee DPS build

Weap/Armor: Halberd -or- Greataxe+1 (no trip) with only mob loot (so no picking or choosing); Chain Shirt (L) for armor. No other current equipment except a Keen Stone.

Party: Fighter, Druid, Cleric, Ranger

Feats I have taken so far (with 3 not chosen/still available to take): Leap Attack, Power Attack, Imp Bull Rush, Imp Sunder.
Plan to take Shock Trooper (definite), Combat Brute (likely) when my BAB hits +6 next level.
Skills: Tumble (6), UMD(4), Arcana(8), Perform (5), Jump (10), Intimidate(8), minor others

After thorough combing of forums, necro and recent, my intent was to create a strong melee DPS; however, due to a recent event at our session, I got a lucky Leap/PA combo and followed with a Pounce/PA combo that one shotted a boss with 160 hp (oops). This led to a) me being put on the GMs watchlist, so I'm sure NPCs will be built to oppose me, and b) him stealth nerfing my Pounce ability to only include natural weapons from here on out (which I will gain next DD level).

So the GM has offered me a side quest to drop Barb1 in exchange for an additional level in Fighter or DD. This is where I need help:

1) Im sure that I'll need to balance out the offensive attacks now - but I am unsure of a good progression at this point. Dodge > Karmic Strike looks nice, but again, I also want Shock Trooper +/- Combat Brute. Which should take priority? (Also do NOT have access to PHBII for Robilar's Gambit)

1a) The DM did offer a free switch of weapon focus/spec from weapon a to b if you get 3000 XP with that weapon (which is nice, but from what I've read, not imperative feats). I am also not guaranteed a tripping weapon, so this may hurt things.

2) The pounce issue - I dont like the change, but his rules (I guess). Is it still worth keeping Barb1 if I'm only allowed to do my second full attack with Bite?

3) I know I've pigeonholed myself into a particular path, and I started this with the intent of being a melee DD (in the hopes of DD10), so I feel okay, but am unsure how to focus myself beyond LA/FA/ST. A huge issue lies in the fact of: what do I do beyond the first round? If I take Combat Brute, I'll get a beefier PA the next turn, but rounds 3+? (I really hope it would be dead and I could LA another target, but I digress).

4) Should I aim to pick up Med/Heavy Armor, or with a LeapAttack/PA/Shock build am I confined to light?

5) My largest fear is spreading myself too thin - after reading a TON of material, and read several forums, I feel that I will head that path rapidly. I have the option to reallocate skills (tho not the feats to this point) if necessary; I would appreciate any help tunneling me toward an effective build to finish up my fighter feats, what I should take for DD (multiattack?), and the remaining levels after DD (Ive read that beyond DD 6 is not efficient, so 3 or 7 levels).

Thanks for reading the long-windedness, and I truly appreciate any feedback.

[Zaq]

OK, Dragon Disciple is not actually that good. It's a pretty weak class that doesn't do much for you. The loss of BAB will make your bonus swings come later and will penalize your use of PA. I guess in such a limited environment it's one of the easiest ways to get claws, but since you don't really have any way of making them better or adding significant bonus damage to them, that only goes so far.

What are you trying to do, exactly? I don't see what the intent of the build is besides "be a Dragon Disciple with some basic charging tricks." No, just saying "melee DPS" doesn't actually mean anything. There are many, many ways of doing that. What do you want your character to be able to do? How do your current feats and classes enable you to do that, and how do your plans for the future fit into that? The PA/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Pounce combo is a solid one, of course, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise . . . but it makes me wonder just why you're giving up BAB if you want to be a PA missile. If you wanted to be a semi-transformative melee type with some claws, teeth, and stat boosts, I'd sooner point you toward Bear Warrior than Dragon Disciple.

So really, I don't see much focus. Your charging is good, but you're kind of giving it up.

(Also, a quibble over nomenclature: your GM didn't "stealth nerf" pounce. He just nerfed it, flat out. How he can possibly have a Druid and a Cleric in the party but insist that the nonhyperoptimized (no offense) melee dude give up one of the few nice things he has just boggles my mind . . . and I feel bad for your Ranger. But anyway.)

[serrakin]

OK, Dragon Disciple is not actually that good. It's a pretty weak class that doesn't do much for you. The loss of BAB will make your bonus swings come later and will penalize your use of PA. I guess in such a limited environment it's one of the easiest ways to get claws, but since you don't really have any way of making them better or adding significant bonus damage to them, that only goes so far.

What are you trying to do, exactly? I don't see what the intent of the build is besides "be a Dragon Disciple with some basic charging tricks." No, just saying "melee DPS" doesn't actually mean anything. There are many, many ways of doing that. What do you want your character to be able to do? How do your current feats and classes enable you to do that, and how do your plans for the future fit into that? The PA/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Pounce combo is a solid one, of course, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise . . . but it makes me wonder just why you're giving up BAB if you want to be a PA missile. If you wanted to be a semi-transformative melee type with some claws, teeth, and stat boosts, I'd sooner point you toward Bear Warrior than Dragon Disciple.

So really, I don't see much focus. Your charging is good, but you're kind of giving it up.

(Also, a quibble over nomenclature: your GM didn't "stealth nerf" pounce. He just nerfed it, flat out. How he can possibly have a Druid and a Cleric in the party but insist that the nonhyperoptimized (no offense) melee dude give up one of the few nice things he has just boggles my mind . . . and I feel bad for your Ranger. But anyway.)

Zaq,

Thanks for replying.

As to why I took it - I wanted to stay melee (personal choice - every other game, Ive been a squishy dps/healer), and I wanted to expand beyond the scope of just a basic fighter/barbarian. I understand that I lose a BAB (once for bard, another for DD1), but the Natural armor and stat boosts at level 6 alone (+3NA, +4STR, +2CON) seem an appropriate tradeoff. Whether it is worth is to gain 2 more AC and +4 STR (2INT2CHA as well) for four more levels of DD is more of the question. TLDR version - for the flavor and finesse, I suppose, plus as a newb to this, it didn't seem awful.

That being said, I posted the help question because I want to do more than just be a PA missle as you appropriately put it. I like staying on the offensive style of melee, like the bonuses of a 2HW for PA, and like feeling like I'm contributing to the overall damage output of the group. But being a simple one-trick pony will get old, and my AC will suffer and be the victim of my DMs wrath. I am just unsure what path I should take from here - is it better to try to compensate defensively (Karmic Strike et al), or should I further my offensiveness? Light armor is great for doing this, but I'm in serious trouble if there are multiples, or I dont finish him in one round. Hence my quandary.

Per my DM, aggro from a monster is typically going to come from whoever is going to do the most damage (which I have the intention of being assuming I can compensate for my lack of AC).

And yes, I was frustrated because I announced that I was taking Pounce before I put it on my char sheet, got an okay, but seeing it in action led to the nerf. So again, do I trade out that level of barbarian for DD (presumably to get out of it sooner)?

I really dont want this to feel like a salvage mission - my aim here is to optimize my current build , do respectable DPS,and give hope for a future path (when to drop DD/what to aim for after that) without losing the fun in the whole process.

Again, I throw myself at the mercy of the court - I apparently lept before I looked, and I suppose I'm asking for sympathy help at this point.

Thanks~

[Tvtyrant]

Switch from a sword weapon to a Glaive or other reach weapon if your using claws, it will let you hit things at multiple distances since you can simply drop the spear and claw.

If I am getting you right you want to be able to use pounce while charging so you are going for DD to get claws and a bite? I would like to point out that the Half-Dragon template actually takes up less levels then DD does, but it might not be possible to apply now. DD gets you wings that can't be dispelled, so I approve of it for that. You could also throw on levels of Totemist instead to get more/better natural attacks to add to pounce.

[serrakin]

Switch from a sword weapon to a Glaive or other reach weapon if your using claws, it will let you hit things at multiple distances since you can simply drop the spear and claw.

If I am getting you right you want to be able to use pounce while charging so you are going for DD to get claws and a bite? I would like to point out that the Half-Dragon template actually takes up less levels then DD does, but it might not be possible to apply now. DD gets you wings that can't be dispelled, so I approve of it for that. You could also throw on levels of Totemist instead to get more/better natural attacks to add to pounce.

I do plan on getting a reach weapon eventually, for sure; but I am currently at the mercy of the DM (who isnt quite forthcoming with money, and doesnt allow the use of takebacks, even after he nerfs). Unfortunately that also means no taking away or substituting the DD class (which I'm okay with) for halfdragon template.

The theoretical opener goes something like charge: LA/PA/Shock, with the pounce to allow a full attack afterwards. It's after that round that becomes murky for me, and what to do with keeping a gimped pounce versus dropping the barb1 level.

[Hirax]

Define core? Races of Stones, Wild, Dragon, etc? Tome of Battle/Magic? Magic Item Compendium?

edit: also, I was pretty sure in my reading that your race was already chosen, but since you also have 3 unchosen feats I may as well ask how mutable your character is? Can any or all of the class levels be changed, and race?

[Greenish]

Define core?PHB, DMG, MMI. Some people include all of SRD, but that's hardly the norm.

[serrakin]

Define core? Races of Stones, Wild, Dragon, etc? Tome of Battle/Magic? Player's Handbook 2? Magic Item Compendium?

edit: also, I was pretty sure in my reading that your race was already chosen, but since you also have 3 unchosen feats I may as well ask how mutable your character is? Can any or all of the class levels be changed, and race?

Hirax,

I was given permission to use most books for feats, as long as it doesn't incite diving on the internet for clarification. DM approval pending on anything outside of what PHBI and Complete XX books.

Human. Cannot change race (knockback would be great!)

Bard1 for access to 24 pts worth of skills which gets me to K:Arcana faster, as well as Insp Courage.
Fighter4 for feats ( 3 of which I havent taken because I was waiting for a BAB of 6); can be adjusted.
Barb1 for Pounce/Rage. Can substitute for 1 level in Fighter or DD.

[Hirax]

Hm, so you can't get rid of the level of DD you already have? This is in an interesting puzzle, I'll think about it while I'm out. I'd also get rid of the bard level for a ranger level if you could, so you could take bear warrior at level 8 possibly.

[serrakin]

Hm, so you can't get rid of the level of DD you already have? This is in an interesting puzzle, I'll think about it while I'm out. I'd also get rid of the bard level for a ranger level if you could, so you could take bear warrior at level 8 possibly.

Indeed.

I will be able to have access to a Glaive soon; this is obviously ideal for tripping if necessary, and as Tvtyrant mentioned, I can simply drop it to claw/claw/bite if necessary.

And bard is locked in. My group already loves the inspire courage buff :)

[Metahuman1]

First, this should be a lesson NEVER to play anything other then a Tier 1 maybe Tier 2 class with this DM ever again, as he is demonstrating a sad and cruel lack of understanding of the game, or blatant favoritism toward caster classes, or both.

If you can squeeze in TOB, change the Barbarian lvl for a lvl in a martial adept class and then get maneuvers that give swift action movement.

Since most reach weapons are also THW, get 1 lvl of exotic weapons master for the trick that let's you go form 1.5 str too hit and damage too x2 str.

And your gonna want to tell the rest of the party "He's deliberately Nerfing me and isn't doing his job. Your gonna need to buff the **** our of me or I'm gonna die lickety freaking split. "

[serrakin]

First, this should be a lesson NEVER to play anything other then a Tier 1 maybe Tier 2 class with this DM ever again, as he is demonstrating a sad and cruel lack of understanding of the game, or blatant favoritism toward caster classes, or both.

If you can squeeze in TOB, change the Barbarian lvl for a lvl in a martial adept class and then get maneuvers that give swift action movement.

Since most reach weapons are also THW, get 1 lvl of exotic weapons master for the trick that let's you go form 1.5 str too hit and damage too x2 str.

And your gonna want to tell the rest of the party "He's deliberately Nerfing me and isn't doing his job. Your gonna need to buff the **** our of me or I'm gonna die lickety freaking split. "

I understand the reasoning behind 1 level in Warblade to get Swift movement, but the EWM level for Uncanny Blow says that it really only works on an Exotic 1H to treat it is a 2HW. Did I misunderstand?

[Hirax]

Beg your DM to let you replace your existing level of DD, not barbarian. Keep your barbarian level, so your build will look like this:
Bard1/fighter4/barbarian1

You'll want to get to 7 BAB so you can then take bear warrior. If your Dm won't let you take warblade levels, then 2 more fighter levels, 2 more bard levels...really, whatever you want as long as it nets you +2 BAB. Then grab bear warrior, then grab 3 levels of warshaper. Bear warrior will give you powerful natural attacks, and warshaper will further enhance them.

[serrakin]

Beg your DM to let you replace your existing level of DD, not barbarian. Keep your barbarian level, so your build will look like this:
Bard1/fighter4/barbarian1

You'll want to get to 7 BAB so you can then take bear warrior. If your Dm won't let you take warblade levels, then 2 more fighter levels, 2 more bard levels...really, whatever you want as long as it nets you +2 BAB. Then grab bear warrior, then grab 3 levels of warshaper. Bear warrior will give you powerful natural attacks, and warshaper will further enhance them.

Final verdict is that I will end up (to this point): Bard1/Fighter4/DD2 with three open feats (have PA/Leap/ImpBR/ImpSunder).

So at this point, Im faced with stopping DD at 4 (+3BAB with +4STR bonus), or at 6 suboptimally(+4BAB+4STR+2CON+2armor).

Beyond that, whats my best route to salvage the mess I got myself into?

[Bang!]

Is psionics Core? Does the No Internet thing mean you have to pay somebody for the book, or just bring a printed copy?

I ask because if you can use War Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm), you can solve a lot of your problems. It has easy qualification requirements for a Bard (provided neutral alignment), full BA and fast advancement in PP and natural-weapon-friendly psychic Warrior powers.

EDIT: Forgot the PP reserve. >.< Psychic Warrior would probably be better then, under the same conditions.

[serrakin]

Is psionics Core? Does the No Internet thing mean you have to pay somebody for the book, or just bring a printed copy?

If you can use Warmind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm), it has a lot of good things going for it (including full BA and fast advancement in PP and natural-weapon-friendly psychic Warrior powers).

Anything that I can find via a .pdf is alright.

To reiterate, which started this whole storm, was the ongoing debate of how Pounce was allowed to be used (since the ability references MM which talks about natural weapons et al.).

So, to refocus:
What level to stop DD at (4 seems the most logical);
Whether to pick up defensive abilities (a la Trip/Karmic Strike vs invest a level into WB or SS for rapid movement);
Not looking like a bigger idiot and making my final level 16-20 character have 8 classes and more loss of BAB.

Really appreciate the ongoing feedback.

[WinWin]

Abjurant Champion (complete mage) might allow you to increase BAB and caster level if you can meet the prerequisites. Decent defensive abilities but Bard Abjurations are not that great though.

Spellsword will further increase CL (slowly) and BAB. Grants bonus feats.

Warchanter will buff your bardic music abilities and BAB...But otherwise takes a lot of investment to be good.

I would propably not branch out into expertise related feats, but that is just me. You're fairly commited to your damage output in melee and trying to cover all of your bases now may be counterproductive. Focus on increasing your damage more I say.