...I'm not about to TPK am I?

[big teej]

so...

my party is hunting a dragon.

the dragon in question is a Juvenile Blue Dragon. CR 8

the party is level 5 and (if everyone is there) consists of the following
Human Paladin
Dwarf Fighter
Gnome Cleric
Human Barbarian
Gnome Bard
Elf Druid
Human Ranger

now, of those listed, I'm only sorta expecting the Druid to show up, so don't factor her into your calculations okay?

now, of the party here's how it breaks out.
the paladin
he's the defacto party leader, and tied for our most effective combatant.

the fighter
the dwarf is tied with the paladin for most effective combatant, he's taken 2 racial sub levels.

the cleric
the cleric was (until recently) a ranger, but the ranger was slain by the elites of the dragon's army, as such, the cleric's player is still getting the hang of playing one. (doing a good job though) also, has the highest AC of the party at 24 followed by the paladin at 20

the Barbarian
of the group, she probably has the most magic weapons. she occaisionally forgets to rage (though I'll probably remind her for the dragon)

the bard
also recently a ranger (slain at the same time as the other ranger) has this seeming habit of being a damage magnet (to the point its a running joke for us.) still figuring out playing a caster (learning much more slowly than the cleric)

The Druid
this player has been on hiatus almost the whole semester, so I can't quite speak to how she'd perform if she came back. she has a wolf companion.
highly infeffective due to a combination of the DM's unfamiliarity with the class and the fact she's learning.
(I'm working on it.)

The Ranger
dubbed "the best ranger" by himself, dubbed "the fail ranger" by us (over a survival check, but I digress)
he is the only ranger that survived the encounter that slew the other 2. he chose a hawk as his companion, and though he's going the TWF route, he most often wades into battle with a masterwork greataxe instead.


our group's op level is...
Low
and we like it that way.
but I digress. this campaign is the 'learner' campaign

now, before you say "they're screwed cuz of flight" and what not.
the fight is taking place underground, so the dragon only has room to jump, fly away and land.
not room enough to stay in the air.

that aside.
looking at the dragon's abilities
+15 to hit
8d8 breath weapon (DC 20 save)
AC 23 - the thing I'm least worried about actually
HP 142 on average


the kicker
the party is fighting a Dracotaur (MMIII) RIGHT before the dragon.

other things in the cave they will likely have fought before the dragon
3 orcs
2 ogres

as two seperate encounters.

now... this is how I expect the party to fight. (I could be off, but this is just what I find likely from observing the party for almost a year irl now)

the Paladin, will rush the dragon and smite evil. spending the rest of combat trying to stick to the dragon like glue and keep its attention focused on him.

the dwarf, being slightly slower, will likely do the same thing. he has a magic crossbow he'll probably pull out whenever the dragon takes flight. but all in all, I expect him to try to melee the dragon

the cleric, I'm counting on buffing the party a bit, and then using spiritual weapon to attack the dragon.

the barbarian, what else? is going to rush the dragon, rage, and smack it with the biggest weapon she has. and likely be shredded by the time the fight's over.

the bard, I forsee the bard starting up inspire courage and then casting sound burst on the dragon until he runs out.... I honestly don't see the Bard contributing much to this fight (more due to player rather than character reasons)

the druid - if she shows up, thats another bit of magical muscle they can throw at the scalie. but I've not a clue how she'd fair she's been gone so long... .the wolf will likely be a snack for the dragon.

the ranger - favored enemy human, he picked up casting so hopefully he'll have a buff spell or to handy.

of the members listed. I expect the casualties to be in this order. (assuming a TPK here for the list.)
1. Paladin or Barbarian - the paladin is going to be trying to keep the focus on him, and the barbarian is just fragile
2. whoever didn't die first
3. the bard - because he's just that fragile, low AC and low hit points. the only reason I can see him lasting longer is due to not drawing much attention.
4. the dwarf - he's up there smacking the dragon too, but he's slower, so that might prolong his life.
5. druid would probably get picked off next as she's obviously a caster.
6. followed by the ranger for still being in melee with the dragon.
7. the cleric, he has the highest AC of the party, and given his access to healing magic, he can keep going for a bit longer.


now.
any questions?

am I going to TPK my party here?

the only things I see making this an even fight are
1) the terrain, almost no room to fly for the dragon.
2) the fact its 1 vs 6 or 7
3) that breath weapon is only every few rounds

[Flame of Anor]

Well, I think your guys have a chance, but I can't say I see them winning this without at least one or two characters dead, especially with that 8d8 breath weapon.

[danzibr]

Yeah... I think if you play the monsters wisely they're in for a TPK.

[SlashRunner]

Just play the monsters sort of stupidly and say that the dragon was overconfident.

[big teej]

Just play the monsters sort of stupidly and say that the dragon was overconfident.

I was going to go with "panicked/desperate" more than 'stupid' but the same net effect.

he'll forget things occaisionally. :smallwink:

[Z3ro]

I think it all depends on how you play the dragon. With concentrated attacking, the party can probably down the dragon in 4-5 rounds, maybe sooner if they roll good. But a breath weapon+full attack will probably kill just about any party member.

My advice would be to focus on the dragon moving+attacking. Without pounce, at best it gets one attack per round. Fire off the breath weapon, move, attack once. That way the party has a chance. If the dragon gets off two or three breath weapons, the parties toast. It's basically a race if the party can down the dragon before it breaths again.

[Firechanter]

Well, _normally_ a Juvenile dragon should be doable by a level 5 party, particularly such a large party, if with some casualties.
What speaks against your party is not so much that they are low-Op, but rather a) that the Bard doesn't know what he's doing (Bard is one of the most difficult classes to play effectively) and b) that you're draining their resources before they even get to the dragon.

I'm too lazy to look up the Dracotaur now but I'm guessing the party will be pretty much dry after this encounter. A CR8 encounter (your dragon) should be manageable for a level 5 party if the party still has most of its resources. That will probably not be the case.

Is it an option that they clear this dungeon/lair over two days?

[Barlen]

The party make up has the ability to take it down, but it should be a tough fight. They would likely loose people one way or the other. If they play smart they can still win, especially if the dragon just melees and breathes and doesn't pull any special tricks.

The cleric and druid both have (or should have) access to resist energy and could pass that out before the fight. The breath weapon averages 36 hp damage and resist energy removes 10 of that per hit for a minute or so. Also they have several options to boost the party's saves (resistance at cantrip level, prot from evil, bless, bard song etc) to half the damage. If they play it smart they should win.

Of course your description doesn't inspire confidence in their ability to play it smart.

[big teej]

Well, _normally_ a Juvenile dragon should be doable by a level 5 party, particularly such a large party, if with some casualties.
What speaks against your party is not so much that they are low-Op, but rather a) that the Bard doesn't know what he's doing (Bard is one of the most difficult classes to play effectively) and b) that you're draining their resources before they even get to the dragon.

I'm too lazy to look up the Dracotaur now but I'm guessing the party will be pretty much dry after this encounter. A CR8 encounter (your dragon) should be manageable for a level 5 party if the party still has most of its resources. That will probably not be the case.

Is it an option that they clear this dungeon/lair over two days?

it is an option, I don't know if they'll take it. but there IS an option.
there are even two bedrooms in the cave
and yes, the bard does have a hard time, the whole group feels he'd be better off as a barbarian, but I refuse to impinge on a player's choice.
but that's another topic entirely.

also, I'm aware that I'm draining them a bit. but this whole quest is centered around killing the dragon AND it's army. it's already cost them two party members (the rangers) and about a month of in game time.

it just doesn't feel right for the cave to be empty, given that some remnants of the horde exist.

granted, it's enitrely possible for the party to go rest for 8 hours after fighting the dracotaur. I just don't know if the party will take that.










The cleric and druid both have (or should have) access to resist energy and could pass that out before the fight. The breath weapon averages 36 hp damage and resist energy removes 10 of that per hit for a minute or so. Also they have several options to boost the party's saves (resistance at cantrip level, prot from evil, bless, bard song etc) to half the damage. If they play it smart they should win.

Of course your description doesn't inspire confidence in their ability to play it smart.

and in the interest of not tpking, I'll remind them of the resist spells, not that I think I'll have too.

and I know my description sounds really bad.
but I actually have alot of confidence in some of my players
the paladin, dwarf, and (as soon as he gets the hang of it) the cleric are all old hands are RPGs, they're learning the system and playing effectively. when I'm not DMing I'd place myself on the same level as the paladin, who's definilty got it down the best.

following the 3(4) of them(us) is the surviving ranger. he understands what he's doing, his dice just tend to hate him.

following the ranger is the barbarian, because she limites her game experience to "I run up and hit it with x"

followed by the bard. who we occaisionally have to walk through his turns still.

I have at least some confidence in every player except the bard....
:smalltongue:

[Firechanter]

Could they even possibly have enough spells to give the entire party Energy Resist?

I could totally understand if your players don't want to interrupt after the lieutenant, would be a bit anticlimatic. To support them, you could also give them some kind of "Second Wind" after they handled the 'taurus. Let's say he was the dragon's army quartermaster and was sitting on a chest of cure potions and, erm, energy resist scrolls or pots. ;)

[Geigan]

Do they know they're going where dragons be? If they know there's a dragon to slay you could maybe hint that some supplies for expressly that purpose wouldn't go to waste. If the spellcasters had the chance to prepare some common buffs they thought would help before hand then that's certainly a point in their favor. Ye best be prepared, who would interfere in the business of Dragons.

Of course if they have no idea then you could have them catch it off guard. Maybe it's busy communicating through some magic device to another BBEG, maybe he's eating facing away from the door, etc. If the previous monsters had some potions or scrolls with them that could have been used but didn't get a chance to then that'd be a way to give them a boost.

Just a few subtle things to tip the scales will do. Don't want to make this too easy. I mean it's a dragon we're talking about. Some casualties wouldn't be too out of place.

[big teej]

Do they know they're going where dragons be? If they know there's a dragon to slay you could maybe hint that some supplies for expressly that purpose wouldn't go to waste. If the spellcasters had the chance to prepare some common buffs they thought would help before hand then that's certainly a point in their favor. Ye best be prepared, who would interfere in the business of Dragons.

Of course if they have no idea then you could have them catch it off guard. Maybe it's busy communicating through some magic device to another BBEG, maybe he's eating facing away from the door, etc. If the previous monsters had some potions or scrolls with them that could have been used but didn't get a chance to then that'd be a way to give them a boost.

Just a few subtle things to tip the scales will do. Don't want to make this too easy. I mean it's a dragon we're talking about. Some casualties wouldn't be too out of place.

they are well aware of the dragon

it's the whole point of the quest.

though throwing in some scrolls/potions of elemental resistance actually sounds like a great idea.

maybe a big box labeld "when da boss gits mad, dric dis"

[Geigan]

they are well aware of the dragon

it's the whole point of the quest.

though throwing in some scrolls/potions of elemental resistance actually sounds like a great idea.

maybe a big box labeld "when da boss gits mad, dric dis"

Items tailored to kill the dragon might be a bit out of place to appear in the dragon's own cave, but if the players find a stash of potions/scrolls that the previous monsters might have used that would be helpful. Just general buffs like heroism, haste, etc. Also a potion of prot energy would have to be of the dragon's own type and would be a bit odd(unless the dragon didn't want his own minions hurt when he breathed), but a scroll of prot energy could be used for any energy type and would totally be viable for anyone to have.

[Metahuman1]

Do them the following.

1: Make sure they have scrolls/Potions too get back to full HP and too buff Resist energy ahead of time. A couple of other things for buffs would be good as well. Bears Endurance, Bulls Strength, Cat's Grace, Owls Wisdom, Eagles Splendor, a couple of Enlarge persons/Hastes/Displacements would also help. Just throwing ideas out there (You don't need ALL of these, there just suggestions. Personally I'd give at least one Stat booster, one resist energy, one of the other not straight stat boosters, and enough healing to get to full HP before the dragon.)

2: Give them the surprise round on the dragon. That will be important.

3: If the Druid isn't there, get that player too lrt them NPC her so her character can help.

Doesn't guarantee a victory, or no casualty's, or an avoided TPK, but it should help. (You'll likely still loose one or two of them. My money's on the ranger, Barbarian, and/or Bard. )

[myancey]

For a party of 6, maybe 7, this is a reasonable encounter. I wouldn't throw anything before or after this encounter though. I'd expect 1 player to die-likely to botched rolls.
I'd recommend a couple of things:

1) Give the party an escape option. Then its on their heads if it's a TPK.
2) If you want the party to succeed (for storyline, etc.), be willing to as a DM to fudge rolls and adjust HP. I have to regularly max out my creatures HP because my players optimize like crazy.
3) A party of 6-7 is a lot of targets...and dragons can only breathe every 1d4 rounds, right? Combat shouldn't take more than 3-5 rounds for a straight on fight.

Anyway, just my suggestions and insight.

[pyrefiend]

This might not be what you're looking for, but speaking from personal experience it's a bad idea to have a big boss fight involve a single big enemy creature. I know it seems a bit off, but really the creature usually ends up either getting killed very quickly or destroying the PC's quite handily.

Others have suggested modifying the dragon's stats as the fight goes on, and that's not a bad idea. However, you'll probably get a more dynamic and evenly-matched battle if you tone the dragon down overall and make the fight with the lieutenant simultaneous.

Obviously you will need to change up the creatures so the players aren't way over their heads, but it will be well worth it, trust me.

[Newbieshoes]

The party is going down so hard it will leave an imprint in the ground.

Dragons are intentionally CR'd about 4 lower than their actual challenge rating (Skip Williams wanks to dragons) so unless you go in there with the characters have an ingame knowledge equal to the MM and the appropriate countermeasures (you have 2 full casters in the group counting the druid. bard too low to have anything good vs a dragon)

Its +18 to hit (chart you're looking at for the 15 is his BAB tack on his 19 STR for another +4 to hit and a -1 from size) and you're looking at a full attack of bite at +18 2d6+4 2 claws at +13 for a d8+4 each 2 more wings at +13 for d6+6 each and a tail at 13 for d8+6 so if anyone REALLY wants to get in full attack range they are in a for a world of hurt.


Giving it the 1st level spells listed won't matter much since only command, MM, and shield of faith are the only combat application spells and none are really worth the standard action to cast (maybe shield of faith if it can't full attack anyone or breathe lightning)

Feats is the only sticking point here since using the matures feats only scaled down to the 5 it'd have improved init and ability focus can be removed from the potential list (10 dex and a 0 init and does not qualify for AF yet) a mature has 9 feats and 9 more hit die so using that list remove the ones it does not qualify for and drop one. If it keeps multi attack bump its non bites up by +3. Power attack requires more bookwork but will let it massacre big dumb melees even faster. Hover lets it screw everyone by hovering (at least 20) 10 feet off the ground (biting range) making a 60 hemisphere of dust that gives concealment in 15-20 feet and total concealment beyond that (no LoS to target = no spells for anything not AOE) and a DC 17 concetration check to cast. (Not very hateful as 8 ranks in concentration + a decent con mod means more than a 50% shot to cast


And the breath weapon. 8d8 (average 36) every 1d4+1 rounds to a minimum of 2 PCs given its linear nature. Given a party a resist energy (10 electric) will soften the blow if they can make their reflex saves (sorry fighter and cleric)

[myancey]

The party is going down so hard it will leave an imprint in the ground.

Really? Because they have three primary meat shields, a ranged damage dealer, and two to three healing potions. Plus druid summoning abilities?

And dragons have full attack/breath weapon/fear effects. That's it. The dragon should only be able to use its breath weapon 2 times in combat unless the DM rolls crazily. And admittedly full-attacks hurt. But with 3 melee builds you can flank like crazy. The bard has inspire courage. And the paladin is immune to fear.

Biggest issue: if the party gets their butts kicked with the initial fear will save.

[Newbieshoes]

Juvenile is just short of the initial dragon fear. Otherwise that likely screw the fighter and barbarian.

If its stupid and stands there playing rock'em sock'em robots with the melee then yes it will lose. Doing that is an insult to the dragon's intelligence.

[tiercel]

Besides "it's a dragon so it's supposed to be tough and awesome" (and under-CRed) also take into consideration that it is reasonably bright and savvy (Int 14, Wis 15). Exactly how and where this thing engages the party makes a *big* difference ... for instance, if there is a choke point that keeps more than one or two PCs from meleeing it at a time, while keeping all its enemies in front of it, it can hold position and breathe, full attack full attack breathe...

DC 20 8d8 breath is gonna leave a mark. And then full attack is going to be, what, +18/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16 bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail for 2d6+4/d8+2/d8+2/d6+2/d6+2/d8+6 (assuming Multiattack, which all dragons take) with 10' reach on the bite? I'm assuming no use of Power Attack here, at least for the crunchiest of the meatshields.

Against AC 24 a full attack will average around 31 points of damage a round.
Against AC 20 it's over 40 points of damage a round on average.

This means any character who has even taken half damage from a single lightning hit is unlikely to survive a full-round attack without significant healing happening in between.

Also your blue dragon has Sor1 casting, which could mean mage armor + grease or ray of enfeeblement or protection from good, not to mention use of any number of scrolls or wands (cleric spells are on its list, as well as a few domains) or what have you from its hoard (gods help the PCs if it has a wand of lesser vigor and an escape route, it will just *leave* a losing fight and come back full strength). ... and if it has magic rings or amulet in its hoard, it probably should be wearing them.

Heck, if one of its spells is disguise self it might not even BE a blue dragon, changing your color so everyone loads up for the wrong element is a classic dragon defense.

[Melayl]

And since the dragon will have reach on all the melee characters, it will get AoO's against them when they charge it...

[Rei_Jin]

Wow, a CR 8 dragon boss against level 5 PCs in an low optimisation game?

My suggestion would be to look at some of the teamwork feats in the PHB2... because I can see an RP way of using them here. You recently lost two rangers in your game, so perhaps they're going to guide the party and give them an edge to help them succeed here.

Specifically, the Foe Hunting feat.

If your guys go into this and they're struggling, then have them make Spot checks. Whoever succeeds on the DC (whatever you set) sees a ghostly figure appear near the dragon pointing out vital spots to strike, and directing the aim of the party members (giving them all +2 to hit). Now, +2 isn't much, but if you have multiple melee guys in there wailing on this thing, then it will add up quick.

If you have people going down due to damage taken, have the Team Shield Maneuver bonus kick in, with the Ranger helping the party to move injured team members out of the way. At least then, you should end up with unconscious PCs instead of dead ones.

Also, try to encourage them to use cover... as cover provides both a bonus to AC, and a bonus to Reflex saves. Giving them an initial warning that the dragon rears its head back and seems to be breathing in deep, allowing them to dive for cover. If they take half damage from the first breath weapon, then it could really help them survive the combat. Of course, if they ignore the warning and the hints, then it's their problem if they get roasted.

It's certainly not an unwinnable battle, but it'll be a tough one. If dice rolls go badly, then there will be deaths. If they play stupid, there will be deaths (and maybe a TPK). But you know what? Sometimes, that's okay. Players only learn through tribulation, and being eaten by a dragon certainly counts as that.

[HalfDragonCube]

Why not try to form a peaceful resolution with the dragon?

Either you can negotiate terms with it, or stab it in the back when you are happy with your position.

Also, since the breath weapon is a line of lightning, just make sure that you don't stand in a line.

[Rei_Jin]

Oh gods, horrible mental image coming in, of a group of PC linedancers being devastated by a blue dragon.

"My boot scootin baby is drivin me AAAAAARRRGGGGGGITBURNSSSSS"

[tyckspoon]

Also, since the breath weapon is a line of lightning, just make sure that you don't stand in a line.

A five-foot line measured along grid intersections, which functionally means it's a 2-square wide area. Still easier to spread out and avoid than the cone breaths, but it's a little more complicated than "don't stand single file."

[big teej]

-ahem-

I have an announcement to make.

my party fought the dragon tonight, as well as his Dracotaur lieutenant and the last dregs of the army.

Paladin Costain Manx, Knight of Barregarrow
Baron Tarik
Priest Raulkor
Arcilliere, of the Stonefists tribe
Zook, Herald of Raulkor
Lan, Man of the woods.

I dub thee....

Dragon Slayers.


MVP goes to the gnome cleric.
most damage dealt goes to the paladin.
death blow goes too Tarik

thankyou everyone for contributing.

nobody died.

Tarik came really close. but nobody bit it.

[Firechanter]

That's great!
Did everyone go *ching*?
How did they do? Did you have to nerf the dragon a lot, or did they go about it real clever?

[OrganicGolem]

kinda funny related story, my party just successfully took out a young adult white at level 5 (mind you they're bit more optimized). Good times, and fat loots were had by all... but then they proceeded to not heal, and continue through the dungeon to a 5 headed pyrohydra that TPK'd them