Final Fantasy Villains v.s

[ArlEammon]

I really like to see Final Fantasy villains in "verses" threads. So I decided to pop this thread up and see how powerful the FF villains really are. How well would they do well against eachother, first of all? And how well would they do against villains from other franchises? Try to come up with villains from other franchises that won't steam roll the FF villains.

Oh, and supposing the FF villains are actually lead by a "Chaos" or something similar like in Dissidia and Duodecim, how powerful would the villains be since they are ALL There at once?

[Elrik]

Well, to give you an idea of how powerful they are (and this may not be entirely accurate, and it probably doesn't cover all of their relevant powers):

Emperor Mateus (FF II) can create cyclones that can destroy a town, he also killed the Satan of the FF universe but I don't think it was implied that Satan was top tier or showed any use of his powers, so that may not be relevant.

Kefka (FF 6) is arguably one of the strongest, being able to use reality warping, telekinesis, magic absorption, and elemental control.

Golbez (FF 4) has limited telepathy, but that's all I know.

Exdeath (FF 5) can tap into 'the void' and eliminate parts of existence, while also being capable of causing mass earthquakes.

Sepiroth (FF 7) can use telekinesis and telepathy, and with his supernova ability (as Safer Sephiroth) is able to destroy a solar system if the cut scenes are anything to go by.

I unfortunatley have no info on the others, sorry.

[Kris Strife]

I think either final battle Kefka, or Garland as Chaos (FFI) would actually be the strongest. Kefka did actually destroy the three goddesses of magic in his world, stole their power and devastated the planet, and Garland/Chaos was the source of all evil in his world and destroyed civilization once before.

You've also got Ultimecia from FFVIII, who controls time, but I'm not sure what else she has.

Golbez wasn't actually the final enemy in IV, rather the manifestation of the hatred held by every living being in the universe is the final foe there, and had been manipulating Golbez as a revenge plot.

FFIX had you fighting what I think was supposed to be death or the fear of death or something like that manifested. It wasn't really clear to me.

Then you have FFX, Sin, a giant monster that destroyed an ancient, powerful civilization and keeps coming back after being killed Because the method that is used to kill it turns one of the people who fight it into the next Sin.

And I have no idea who or what the final enemies in XII or XIII are.

Sorry if the post looks wonky from the spoilers, didn't want to ruin any of them for anyone.

[KillianHawkeye]

Golbez (FF 4) has limited telepathy, but that's all I know.

Golbez can cast Meteo, the strongest of all Black Magics! He can also apparently grow a new body when there's nothing left but his hand (which was still alive and crawling around). Plus, everyone loves mind control! :smallbiggrin:

[littlebottom]

these things normally turn into a "whine about sephiroth" thread, so just gonna say, dont always take things for face value, just because he "destroyed the solar system" doesnt mean he did, since if you play the boss battle long enough, he does it again "wait, did he rebuild the solar system to destroy it again?" no, the players survive on 1 HP they would be dead fullstop if it was truely that powerful, it was just a shiney cutscene to show off a special attack is all. (i personally think he is great, but thats me)

[Tono]

IIRC the only reason IX didn't end with everything not being uncreated was because of the power of friendship. And you know, Kuja also only lost because he had a time-limit, not because of the heroes.(They actually accomplished very little in the face of everyone's favorite sociopath.) This information may be slightly off though as it has been a bit since I last played through it. IMO, if he could control the trance, he would easily wipe the rest, no matter what Dissidia says about him.

[Aidan305]

IIRC the only reason IX didn't end with everything not being uncreated was because of the power of friendship. And you know, Kuja also only lost because he had a time-limit, not because of the heroes.(They actually accomplished very little in the face of everyone's favorite sociopath.) This information may be slightly off though as it has been a bit since I last played through it. IMO, if he could control the trance, he would easily wipe the rest, no matter what Dissidia says about him.

Given that he destroyed a world and then went on to unmake reality, I'd say that Kuja Trance would probably be the winner.

[Mx.Silver]

Given that he destroyed a world and then went on to unmake reality, I'd say that Kuja Trance would probably be the winner.

Now in fairness, the unmaking reality thing only worked because he went and destroyed a magic crystal thingy that was holding it together, so it was more like knocking out a keystone than obliterating everything by himself. Similarly, Terra wasn't in the best of shapes when he got to it either. Still, destroying Terra is still a pretty big display of power, plus in his non-trance form he was able to take one of Bahamut's mega-flares to the face and it barely scratched him (in a cutscene, not due to abstracted combat HP mechincs). So I'd still definately put him as one of the top in terms of power, probably ahead of everyone else from the 3D FF games anyway.

[littlebottom]

Given that he destroyed a world and then went on to unmake reality, I'd say that Kuja Trance would probably be the winner.

well ultimecia (SP?) from FF8 managed to compress all of time into a singularity or some such, i would say thats pretty damn powerful looking at it from that view, BUT Ultimecia had to be in three places at once, a power she didnt have, she had to use other people from other times to do it, you would think someone who could compress all of time could pop back in time a few more years eh? its kinda of subjective.

[SDF]

Kefka becomes the god of magic. God. You basically have to fight through the entire Divine Comedy to get to him.

Sin wasn't even the real boss of FFX. It was Yu Yevon, that four foot tall jellyfish thing. Seymour always struck me as a much cooler villain in that game.

[TheSummoner]

Quiz time! What sets Kefka apart from the other villains in the Final Fantasy series?

Success. Kefka succeeded. Yes, he was eventually defeated... He eventually died... But only after accomplishing what he set out to do.

Kefka became a god. Kefka reached a position where he could've easily wiped out all life and finished off a world that was essentially his plaything. As for why he didn't, thats a pretty good question... Best theory I've heard is that he actually was trying to understand why people struggled and clung to lives he considered meaningless... He couldn't understand due to how broken his mind was, but desperately wanted to. The only answers he ever got sounded like they came out of some sort of self-help book and that is when he decided there was no point in trying to understand any longer. Cue final boss battle.

The rest... Well, individually, they don't really compare to that.

[Mx.Silver]

Quiz time! What sets Kefka apart from the other villains in the Final Fantasy series?

Success. Kefka succeeded. Yes, he was eventually defeated... He eventually died... But only after accomplishing what he set out to do.
By that standard you'd have to include Ultimecia in that category as well, thereby refuting the point you were trying to make.

[Elrik]

You've also got Ultimecia from FFVIII, who controls time, but I'm not sure what else she has.

I think she can also possess other people by entering their bodies, but I'm not sure if that power is limited or not.

[Kato]

Well... the thing is lots of stuff are up to interpretation. Sepiroth's Solar Destruction is... well... rather stupid but would be an enormous feat. Thing is, the world is still there after the attack, ergo it didn't happen. On the other hand, Ultimecia did compress time, but she didn't use her own powers but had to use Ellione's if my memory serves me right. Though, I guess you could list it as her feat. Kefka deytroyed a world. Period. Well, he didn't destroy a planet for reasons I guess nobody knows, probably he didn't blow up the world for the same reason he did burn the world to ashes: For the Evulz. Exdeath had gained the power of nothingness and... well, basically he should have been able to annihilate all existence. Or at least the planet, I'm not really sure on that part.
And as much as I like Kefka, he's not the only one who ever achieved something. Golbeze got all the crystals and activated the Giant, Exdeath's Plan succeeded even though barely, in XIII everything went according to plan up to the very last minutes of the game. I could go on but, well, Kefka wasn#t the only one who got somewhere.

Okay, let's go at it from a few different angles:

In Story destructive powers:
Category A: Reality Destruction/Warping/whatever: Exdeath, Ultimecia, Darkwave, probably Chaos
Category B: Planetary Destruction: Kefka, Kuja (possibly barely, not too sure)
Category C: below-Planetary Destruction: Golbez, Sepiroth, Yu-Yevon, Vayne, fal'Cie (too not be too specific)
Category D: uncategorized: Zeromus, Mateis


Character status:
god or god-like: Chaos, Mateis, Darkwave, Exdeath, Kefka
powerful human(oid): Golbeze, Ultimecia (not too sure with that, maybe higher), Kuja, Sepiroth (most story)
Monster: Sin, Yu-Yevon, end-game Vayne, end-game Sepiroth, fal'Cie


I'd go for an actual threat level in game but's way too subjective since you can destroy about anything with sufficient grinding...
But really, we are looking at multiple gods here 8which were defeated by a few 6 year olds on occasions) Putting any of them against each other would be... well... the end of the world? :smalltongue:

[Mx.Silver]

In Story destructive powers:
Category A: Reality Destruction/Warping/whatever: Exdeath, Ultimecia, Darkwave, probably Chaos
Category B: Planetary Destruction: Sepiroth, Kefka, Kuja (possibly barely, not too sure)


Kuja's definitely planetary destruction, bordering on Reality destruction depending on how you interpret the end stage of the game.

[Kato]

Kuja's definitely planetary destruction, bordering on Reality destruction depending on how you interpret the end stage of the game.

Really, I'd disagree. It's been a while for me, I'll admit but all he did destroy was a world on the verge of dying anyway, and there is the keystone argument. Okay, he was able to create this... what was it called... that last dungeon thing which is probably a reality warping feat, though I actually forgot how exactly he did it but doesn't matter that much) Just because he seeked to destroy creation doesn't mean ha was able to. Whatever Necron(?) would have been able to is something else but really... he's probably the worst space flea in the series and the only one I like to ignore for all that is dear to me.

[Innis Cabal]

these things normally turn into a "whine about sephiroth" thread, so just gonna say, dont always take things for face value, just because he "destroyed the solar system" doesnt mean he did, since if you play the boss battle long enough, he does it again "wait, did he rebuild the solar system to destroy it again?" no, the players survive on 1 HP they would be dead fullstop if it was truely that powerful, it was just a shiney cutscene to show off a special attack is all. (i personally think he is great, but thats me)

Same with every boss and their most ultimate attack. What's your point? That none of them are as strong as their cut scene's and stories would suggest? Even if they're Gods etc etc they still lose to a bunch of mortals. So it's kind of pointless to base things off battle events.

[TheSummoner]

Of course they all achieved something. They wouldn't be credible threats otherwise.

I suppose I should've been more clear... I was talking about primary goal. For example, Garland/Chaos wanted to maintain a stable time loop to achieve immortality... He got the first half, but was still killed. Eternal life was his primary goal and he failed.

Now... I'll admit that it's been a while since I played 8... but IIRC, wasn't Ultimecia defeated BEFORE she completed the Time Compression? (Something about it finishing wiping out all life and that not happening). I could be wrong since I haven't played the game in ages... Or maybe I'm just confused because time travel always tends to be confusing...

Kefka on the other hand... His primary goal was to become a god. He achieved this by the midpoint of the game. When the protagonists confront him, he decides to wipe out all life. He is stopped from doing so, but this goal wasn't what he strove for throughout the course of the game... Merely a secondary objective that he decided to go for once he got tired of trying to figure out why people seemed to value their lives so much.

[Mx.Silver]

Really, I'd disagree. It's been a while for me, I'll admit but all he did destroy was a world on the verge of dying anyway, and there is the keystone argument. Okay, he was able to create this... what was it called... that last dungeon thing which is probably a reality warping feat, though I actually forgot how exactly he did it but doesn't matter that much) Just because he seeked to destroy creation doesn't mean ha was able to. Whatever Necron(?) would have been able to is something else but really... he's probably the worst space flea in the series and the only one I like to ignore for all that is dear to me.

1: Destroying Terra was still more destructive than Sephiroth ever managed, and note that he physically blew it up, rather than excelarating the wasting/decaying process that was killing Terra.
2: Was also able to summon a massive horde of monsters that were able to keep pretty much the entire armies of the world at bay while he ripped open a tear in reality to get to the keystone of the world/universe
3: Necron is the physical manifestation of death/destruction. The debate is whether he was summoned by Kuja's shattering of The Crystal to personally destroy the world/universe or whether he turned up as manifestation of the destruction of the world/universe which was itself directly caused by Kuja's aformentioned act. In either case, the universe would have been destroyed as a result of Kuja's actions had the protagonists' not been able to impress Necron enough through their force of will to reverse/postpone the apocalypse in question. (note that Ultimecia's plan was defeated in a similar manner).

Unrelated: pretty sure Yu Yevon is technically a god, albeit a weak, anticlimactic one.

[Da'Shain]

Unrelated: pretty sure Yu Yevon is technically a god, albeit a weak, anticlimactic one.He was only a god in the sense that the church of Yevon recognized him as one. The best description of him I've seen is that he was simply the unsent soul of essentially the greatest summoner of all time; he is ridiculously good at controlling Aeons, but aside from that and his ... odd ... form, nothing indicates he's anything on the level of reality-warping.

[Geddoe]

Ultimecia is pretty strong. In the grim, dark future of FFVIII world she has been ruling the world with an iron fist for centuries. This is not enough for her so she attempts to set up Time Compression so that she can unmake reality and remake it according to her will.

She loses because she is basically destined to lose. If she had been successful, it would be impossible to be more powerful(making and unmaking according to her whim and will).

She is still very strong, but not Time Compression strong when you fight her.

[Prime32]

I really like to see Final Fantasy villains in "verses" threads. So I decided to pop this thread up and see how powerful the FF villains really are. How well would they do well against eachother, first of all? And how well would they do against villains from other franchises? Try to come up with villains from other franchises that won't steam roll the FF villains.Sticking with Square, I choose Chrono Trigger.

Magus vs. Sephiroth. Lavos vs Kefka. Go.

[Kris Strife]

Sticking with Square, I choose Chrono Trigger.

Magus vs. Sephiroth. Lavos vs Kefka. Go.

I think Sephiroth would edge out Magus, since I'd imagine he can at least match him for magical and physical abilities, plus he can fly.

And which Lavos? Outershell, true form or the Dream Eater?

[Zaydos]

I think Sephiroth would edge out Magus, since I'd imagine he can at least match him for magical and physical abilities, plus he can fly.

And which Lavos? Outershell, true form or the Dream Eater?

Magus can fly too. In fact that's how he gets everywhere.

Also Magus before being drained by Lavos or after? In which case immediately after or when you get back to fight Lavos again with full items?

[Prime32]

Also Magus before being drained by Lavos or after? In which case immediately after or when you get back to fight Lavos again with full items?"Immediately after" doesn't seem really fair. There's not a lot of difference between boss Magus and endgame Magus apart from the former having higher HP and possibly being distracted during the fight.

Just to clarify before anyone brings it up - Sephiroth cannot one-shot Magus by having a sword called Masamune.

Frog's sword was only called Masamune in the English translation (strange name for a broadsword forged by a guy not named Masamune...) - in the original it's called Grandleon.
Frog's sword could harm Magus because it had the power to turn his dreams into reality, and his dream was to defeat Magus. Even if Sephiroth had Frog's sword it wouldn't help him.

[Kato]

Okay, I hope we don't start discussing any details about Masamune: Let's just say, All Sepiroth can do is stick a long sharp blade into Magus which I think he won't like. I can't really decide how the battle would end but I'd slightly tend towards Sepiroth. I guess it depends on circumstance.

Lavos vs Kefka I have no idea. Probably destruction of the planet end then some ages of a certain part of the universe being a giant wasteland of massive attacks. Though, thing is, Kefka has no patience which might serve him well in this case. I guess he'd kill Lavos long before he gets any power if he has the chance.


Also, I edited my earlier post. No idea what I was thinking making Sepiroth strong enough to planetary destruction... He needed Meteo for that. If I hand a Moogle a nuke he can level a city as well.

[Gullintanni]

I'm inclined to lean toward Kefka here, given that he attained god-hood. While we never see evidence of Kefka reworking the rules of reality, we don't necessarily know that he can't. I mean, judging by the bosses you fight in the tower, he rules over Atma and the Goddesses, the forces that govern magic.

He also invokes literary characters which he then makes you fight...so you know, he can at the very least summon creatures from across different realities :smallwink:

...but in a more serious tone, I think ExDeath, Zeromus or Chaos are top tier. That, I think, is more of a result of the earlier game's villains tending toward representations of evil incarnate in its abstract form, whereas later generation evils are built up from the framework of mortality.

Edit:

On Sephiroth vs. Magus...consider that Magus' power is internally born. He's badass by birth. Sephiroth requires materia. That is...strip them both down to what they can do with their bare hands, and Magus has it locked down.

On Lavos vs. Kekfa...Both forces are world breakingly powerful. Lavos' Destruction Rains tears down a kingdom in the sky. The Light of Judgement rips apart continents. No matter who wins...we all lose.

[Zaydos]

Edit:

On Sephiroth vs. Magus...consider that Magus' power is internally born. He's badass by birth. Sephiroth requires materia. That is...strip them both down to what they can do with their bare hands, and Magus has it locked down.

On Lavos vs. Kekfa...Both forces are world breakingly powerful. Lavos' Destruction Rains tears down a kingdom in the sky. The Light of Judgement rips apart continents. No matter who wins...we all lose.

Not quite true with Magus, the reason Lavos could strip his dark powers was because he had used Lavos's powers. Now once he's in your party he's relying on his own power and by the end game is stronger with better gear (I forget his best scythe's name) and the ability to cast Dark Matter quickly instead of only be reducing his own defenses. That said I'd still say Magus would win. He can use Dark Matter with just his awesomeness, and create Black Holes, and even in a melee fight he's not shabby.

I'd actually bet on Kekfa over Lavos as Kekfa did obtain godhood; although Lavos was simply immensely powerful enough that it was intertwined in the death of an undetailed god-like Entity (seems to be the planet itself/Gaia-esque entity), and had some ability to manipulate time although he never shows skilled control.

[ArlEammon]

Say, how powerful would these Final Fantasy villains be in Supernatural?

[littlebottom]

Same with every boss and their most ultimate attack. What's your point? That none of them are as strong as their cut scene's and stories would suggest? Even if they're Gods etc etc they still lose to a bunch of mortals. So it's kind of pointless to base things off battle events.

my exact point was to say "dont take it for gospel" exactly as you said, your arguing against your own point there.

my point was to avoid arguments of "yeah but he destroyed the solar system" when clearly he didnt. either way, he did summon meteor, but technically anybody could of with the materia. Sephiroths strengths were that he was a super human by the jenova cells, and that made him super strong/quick, also he had extreme amounts of mako/lifestream exposure, supposedly warping him into the "godlike" being at the end, and giving him his wing.

he was just a super powerful human/alien but an awesome one. and i personally give sephiroth all the style points he wants, which is why i like him. he had style, the rule of cool. "so, the mako gun? *chop* what mako gun?" :smalltongue: (not an actual quote)

[Kris Strife]

Littlebottom, have you played Crisis Core?
Sephiroth is half whatever the heck Jenova actually is/was and the wing came from his cells mutating/breaking down. Happened to the first two SOLDIER project experiments as well.

[Traab]

I have to go with kefka. But thats mainly due to going off what I know/can remember fromt he games ive played. I never actually fought ultimecia. I got annoyed at around the time I went into outer frigging space and fought aliens. I am playing final fantasy not phantasy star. That and the entire storyline confused the hell out of me, the magic system was stupid, and I was developing carpal tunnel from powering up the summons. Final fantasy 8 failed on every conceivable level for me. Except for the card game, that was kinda neat. :p

Ok, rant over, time to justify. Sephiroth was badass and cool, no doubt that he was strong as heck. However, he was unable to have enough personal strength to fulfill his goals. He had to use an outside source of magic to summon meteor to wound the planet. Kefka on the other hand absorbed the power of three goddesses, shattered the world with that action, then proceeded to have a tower built to himself where he could burn down towns and create massive swaths of destruction all by himself. And as was said before, he actually became a god.

The exdeaths chaos and other hidden bad guys have a bit of an unfair advantage on the power scale, they started out as godlike beings, physical manifestations of the entropic nature of the universe, and other such grandiose titles. It makes it hard to judge relative power levels because aside from final fights, they dont do much to prove their power. After all, werent most of them sealed away in the first place? Doesnt prove your badassery if some human has to free you first.

Sin is interesting. He can wipe out civilizations. Now, I didnt beat that game either, I got stuck at the blitzball stage i think. So I cant really comment on his ultimate power level. I just know that he is a civilization destroying entity, that cant really be destroyed as he just is reborn as whoever killed him if I understand it properly. Thats a pretty damn scrappy bad guy there. But still, not a self made god like kefka.

[TheSummoner]

I would like to bring up that every time you see "Sephiroth" in FF7 other than in the Northern Crater (and flashbacks of course), it isn't even him. It's just one of the clones being manipulated by Jenova.

For the entire game, Sephiroth was frozen in a materia crystal. He didn't actually DO anything, it was all Jenova.

His list of accomplishments are essentially...

Wipe out a defenseless village.
Get thrown into the lifestream by some footsoldier kid with spiky hair.
Take a nice long nap.
Get beaten in a 3-stage battle, complete with latin gibberish.

Why is this guy so popular again?

[Traab]

I would like to bring up that every time you see "Sephiroth" in FF7 other than in the Northern Crater (and flashbacks of course), it isn't even him. It's just one of the clones being manipulated by Jenova.

For the entire game, Sephiroth was frozen in a materia crystal. He didn't actually DO anything, it was all Jenova.

His list of accomplishments are essentially...

Wipe out a defenseless village.
Get thrown into the lifestream by some footsoldier kid with spiky hair.
Take a nice long nap.
Get beaten in a 3-stage battle, complete with latin gibberish.

Why is this guy so popular again?

Cause hes hot. Honestly, thats about it. Think about it, ff7 was the first game that i can think of to use cinematics in it, especially of that quality. Its not surprising that the images stick with you. I just wish I could have seen cinematic kefka. :p Always wondered what he would look like outside of pixels.

[TheSummoner]

As you wish!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viFJ0tdwuS8

They did a FF6 remake for the PS1 at one point. Game was essentially the same but it added a few full 3d cutscenes. Your first glimpse of Kefka is at 2:04

[littlebottom]

Littlebottom, have you played Crisis Core?
Sephiroth is half whatever the heck Jenova actually is/was and the wing came from his cells mutating/breaking down. Happened to the first two SOLDIER project experiments as well.

yeah...... yeah, i should really stop posting after 2 am.:smalltongue::smallredface: my brain melts down

[Kato]

The exdeaths chaos and other hidden bad guys have a bit of an unfair advantage on the power scale, they started out as godlike beings, physical manifestations of the entropic nature of the universe, and other such grandiose titles. It makes it hard to judge relative power levels because aside from final fights, they dont do much to prove their power. After all, werent most of them sealed away in the first place? Doesnt prove your badassery if some human has to free you first.

Sin is interesting. He can wipe out civilizations. Now, I didnt beat that game either, I got stuck at the blitzball stage i think. So I cant really comment on his ultimate power level. I just know that he is a civilization destroying entity, that cant really be destroyed as he just is reborn as whoever killed him if I understand it properly. Thats a pretty damn scrappy bad guy there. But still, not a self made god like kefka.

Well, first, Sin is not 'exactly' as you make him out to be.

Sin's basically just the summon created by Yu-Yevon within him. Basically means, Sin dies on a regular basis but nobody ever bothered for whatever reason to take the summoner out, because... nobody bothered to tell them, I guess. he's pretty powerful but not that amazing.


Also, wow, no disrespect for Exdeath. He's not the Giant Space Flea like Chaos in I or Zeromus in IV (I really hate Zeromus, he might have some awesome lines but apart from that... well, whatever) Yeah, Exdeath did get captured but he freed himself after he could regain some power and he's very prominent for 1/3 of the game and he does a lot of work on his own to achieve what he tries to get AND succeeds for a big part. Exdeath is pretty awesome, he just didn't really know his limits.



On another note... well, apart from the fact that the game doesn't go out of it's way to make anything clear, I guess you really need to wonder how much credit you can give Sepiroth for his clones actions. Don't get me wrong, I lame it mostly on Jenova as well, but then again, they are never too clear on what is Jenova doing and what is Sepiroth doing, I guess you mostly have to put the both of them in together and aadd the achievements.

[Traab]

I dont much like the fact that they basically retconned the hell out of ff7 by releasing that crisis core stuff. I much preferred it when sephiroth was evil, he kept jumping out at random and slapping everyone, then making them fight jenovas left breast or whatever, then continued on, always several steps ahead of the heroes. I havent even watched those movies, and despite how awesome they apparently were I dont want to. Leave me with my illusions about what was going on in ff7 dammit!

[Kato]

Uhm... Not sure if I understand you right but Crisis Core (apart from it being a game, not a movie. he only prequel movie was Last Order, which was a 30min OVA which pretty much just showed what happened at Nibelheim) didn't say anything about what happened in FF VII. That's really all stuff you 'should' figure out on your own at the end of the game (good luck with that, though)
Crisis Core only told a bit of how he went mad and how he was before that
(a bit less likeable but still kind of douchy)

[Traab]

NO! Sephiroth was sephiroth, not dozens of weird clones doing odd stuff while he was sealed in a crystal at the north pole! DONT RUIN IT FOR MEEEEE!!!!

[Kris Strife]

NO! Sephiroth was sephiroth, not dozens of weird clones doing odd stuff while he was sealed in a crystal at the north pole! DONT RUIN IT FOR MEEEEE!!!!

That was revealed in VII itself, not Crisis Core.

[Kato]

That was revealed in VII itself, not Crisis Core.

I'm sure he actually got it and just... you know. Doesn't want to believe it... for... comedic purposes or something.


Oh, I forgot something: Ultima/Altima/whatever you wanna call it. We could set up Delita but he's... uh... well, he'd probably be highest in the success scale but power wise Ultima is practically a god(ess) and even if you're characters at this point should be so ridiculously overpowered they can kill her in a few rounds she'd still be on par with enemies like Sepiroth or maybe even some of the weaker god characters. Any arguing about that?

[Traab]

Actually, /sigh I didnt get it. I thought he didnt head up for the north pole until after the whole adventure started and cloud and crew were right on his tail. Thinking about it logically with hindsight I can see how things actually went, but I much preffered my old thought. Sephiroth was back from wherever the hell he went. Took jenovas remains, killed the president, then headed off on his long and winding road towards the north pole. He didnt get into the crystal until shortly before cloud and crew arrived and cloud went into his mental breakdown mode and turned over the black materia to the illusion person that sephiroth tricked him with.

[littlebottom]

Actually, /sigh I didnt get it. I thought he didnt head up for the north pole until after the whole adventure started and cloud and crew were right on his tail. Thinking about it logically with hindsight I can see how things actually went, but I much preffered my old thought. Sephiroth was back from wherever the hell he went. Took jenovas remains, killed the president, then headed off on his long and winding road towards the north pole. He didnt get into the crystal until shortly before cloud and crew arrived and cloud went into his mental breakdown mode and turned over the black materia to the illusion person that sephiroth tricked him with.

essentially that did happen, except he was controlling puppets as it were. and was in the crystal all along.

he did go get jenovas remains and did kill the president, just not personally.

[Kato]

Don't worry, Traab, it took me a long time after finishing the game or the first time until I put some more thought into it and read a lot of stuff until I figured this was what happened. Heck, how are we supposed to know if we only ever see either nothing or something that looks exactly like him?!
Though, whether he was the puppeteer or just another puppet of jenova's... I'm not sure. And I won't take anyone's word for it unless he got proof. I'll leave it a mystery for me.

[ArlEammon]

I love it how most of the people here, if not all, arer just commenting on one part of the OP. :)

[Kato]

I love it how most of the people here, if not all, arer just commenting on one part of the OP. :)

Uhm... well, throw in a suggestion. There are so many possible match ups if we consider all possible franchises... I'm not going to start picking :smalltongue:

[ArlEammon]

Uhm... well, throw in a suggestion. There are so many possible match ups if we consider all possible franchises... I'm not going to start picking :smalltongue:


Hmm.. How about Kefka v.s Kratos?

[TheSummoner]

Kefka.

Kratos is just a super-powered crybaby who throws a tantrum and breaks toys whenever he doesn't get his way.

"No! My wife and child are dead! Ooh, look... a couple of sluts."

*later*

"Now where was I... Oh yeah, what's her name and the kid..." *cough cough* "NO!!!"

---

If you want to throw Delita into this, he really doesn't measure up in a fight... He's a manipulative bastard up there with the best of them, but he's still mortal... Strong, but not on the same level as the majority of FF antagonists.

Hell, he'd probably be the one making the rest of them fight in the first place and come out ahead without ever having to lift a finger.

[hivedragon]

I'll just leave this here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8vz186pjY0

[Mx.Silver]

Kefka.

Kratos is just a super-powered crybaby who throws a tantrum and breaks toys whenever he doesn't get his way.

On the other hand, he is also an extremely effective deicidal psychopath with an annoying habit of not staying dead. So yeah, might want to write him off too quickly.

[Kris Strife]

Here's a comic with a Kefka Vs Sephiroth debate (http://iwd.fetchquest.com/archives.php?type=iwd&c=508). Goes on for a bit and there's one off topic page in there. :smalltongue:

[VanBuren]

I would like to bring up that every time you see "Sephiroth" in FF7 other than in the Northern Crater (and flashbacks of course), it isn't even him. It's just one of the clones being manipulated by Jenova.

For the entire game, Sephiroth was frozen in a materia crystal. He didn't actually DO anything, it was all Jenova.

His list of accomplishments are essentially...

Wipe out a defenseless village.
Get thrown into the lifestream by some footsoldier kid with spiky hair.
Take a nice long nap.
Get beaten in a 3-stage battle, complete with latin gibberish.

Why is this guy so popular again?

The Word of God was that Sephiroth had mentally overpowered Jenova, and that it was him controlling her and not the other way around.

[TheSummoner]

Here's a comic with a Kefka Vs Sephiroth debate (http://iwd.fetchquest.com/archives.php?type=iwd&c=508). Goes on for a bit and there's one off topic page in there. :smalltongue:

Heh... Napalmman got what he deserved.

But I do want to point out that Kefka wasn't always insane... He was from the start of the game, sure, but that was a result of the magitech experiments he was the subject of before the game started. We really don't know what he was like before that, only that he was a loyal soldier of the empire...

The great thing about Kefka is that he was pure, unredeemable evil and at the same time, he wasn't evil just 'cuz the game needed a bad guy. There was a story to his insanity and nihilism. There was no sympathy for the guy... He was too far gone and enjoying every moment of it for anyone to feel sorry for him. He started out as a joke, but quickly started kicking puppies and showing you that the coward who runs away from every fight can still be something able to fill you with terror and hate.


The Word of God was that Sephiroth had mentally overpowered Jenova, and that it was him controlling her and not the other way around.

Doesn't seem consistant with his momma's boy personality. Jenova was an alien monster... She'd have no sympathy or love for him... But him... Him using Jenova as a pawn really doesn't make sence...

Can you show me the source of this Word of God and was this before or after Square decided to milk everything they could out of the ravenous fanboys and fangirls of FF7 and its white-haired prettyboy antagonist?

[VanBuren]

Can you show me the source of this Word of God and was this before or after Square decided to milk everything they could out of the ravenous fanboys and fangirls of FF7 and its white-haired prettyboy antagonist?

It was the Ultimania guide IIRC which was around Advent Children, I think.

EDIT:And then there's this dialog from the beginning of Disc 2 where a clone specifically identifies Sephiroth as the master.

Sephiroth: You're right. This is the end of this body's usefulness.

Sephiroth vanishes from the scene.

Cloud: He disappeared!?

Tifa: He might still be nearby……

???: Our purpose is to deliver the Black Materia to our master.

Cloud: Our...?

Cid: Hey, hey! What's goin' on?

???: Those who carry Jenova's cells...

Cloud: Master...!?

???: Of course... Sephiroth. Heh, heh, heh...

[Traab]

I love it how most of the people here, if not all, arer just commenting on one part of the OP. :)

That should tell you something right there. Honestly, while there is a bit of notice for ultimecia, there are really only two villains in the final fantasy world worth arguing over. You can do a deep scan into all the other villains and find all sorts of clues that show them to be strong, but noone CARES because the only bad guys final fantasy fanatics can focus on are kefka and sephiroth.

Also, that comic set? Badass.

[Kato]

It was the Ultimania guide IIRC which was around Advent Children, I think.

EDIT:And then there's this dialog from the beginning of Disc 2 where a clone specifically identifies Sephiroth as the master.

[...]???: Of course... Sephiroth. Heh, heh, heh...

You know, I don't want to argue for or against either option but that laughter at the end might very well be ironic as in 'Of course Sepiroth, who else! He is the bad guy of the game, isn't he? ISN'T HE? He, heh, heh..' Not saying it has to be true but well... who am I to judge?

[Aidan305]

That should tell you something right there. Honestly, while there is a bit of notice for ultimecia, there are really only two villains in the final fantasy world worth arguing over. You can do a deep scan into all the other villains and find all sorts of clues that show them to be strong, but noone CARES because the only bad guys final fantasy fanatics can focus on are kefka and sephiroth.
Personally I tend to think that Sephi is among the weaker final fantasy villains along with people like Yu Yevon and Vayne. Yes they were powerful, yes they were extremely good warriors, but they honestly don't compare power-wise with the likes of people such as Chaos, Kefka, or the Emperor.