New Druid race/stat help. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

vageta31

2011-04-30, 03:45 PM

So last night my character died.. I had enough exp to make level 3 but during our rest we got ambushed and the party had no resources to heal everyone in time. Long story short, it was a 5 person party all level 2 and my Rogue and the Cleric bit it.

So now we've rolled up new stats and will be starting new characters next game. After leveling, the party consists of a level 3 fighter/barb, a level 3 wizard(trans spec) and a level 3 ranger(archery). The cleric has decided to make a Dwarf barbarian and I've decided to make a druid. Basically the cleric was frustrated because of all the hit points our half orc fighter/barb has and "thinks" his cleric was weak. To show them their folly I will be playing a Druid to show them just who is truly weak(these guys have no clue how strong clerics and druids can be and think fighters are awesome). Whether or not I'm the only healer or not, I won't be playing my Druid like that. I don't have enough healing to keep us all going so hopefully the DM will somehow grant us some alternate healing like a magic wand or something. Actually we have "something"(a healing staff of some sort) but haven't managed to identify it yet.

Ok so here are specifics. DM is a stickler for rolling stats, and this will be a primarily core game although it is in the FRCS and he has allowed things outside the core books so long as he approves it. No one else bothers taking the time to look, so it's usually only me that searches this stuff out. Keep in mind I cannot change my rolls or go point buy. My rolls are what they are. Period. We're also starting out at level 1 even though the others guys have just hit level 3. There's no arguing, that's his rule. Also no flaws/traits. As I said, he is strict.

17
15
14
11
9
6

So obviously 6 is going into CHA, the 9 going to INT. 17 to WIS, 15 to CON then the 14/11 is going str/dex or dex/str depending on what race I choose. Which brings me to my next choice...

I have to run it by my DM first, but my plan is to go lesser aasimar. It will give me a +2 wis and +2cha, darkvision and some energy resistance built in. If I'm allowed to go this route my stats will probably go:

14 str
11 dex
17 con
9 int
17 wis(+2)
8 cha(+2)

Not sure what to take as my level 1 feat, but I'd hate to waste it on augment summoning. However I was thinking about making his Deity Malar so that at level 3 I can get the augment summoning for free and not spend an extra feat like usual to get it. About Malar... he is a Chaotic Evil god so with the alignment/deity rules I can still pick CN for an alignment and worship him correct?

If the aasimar doesn't get the green light, I'm considering either Human or strongheart halfling. If I go halfing my stats will end up:

12 str
13 dex
15 con
9 int
17 wis
6 cha

Not the greatest but plenty for a Druid. I'd consider taking the 1st halfling substitution level, but not the 5th. I'd also consider a riding dog, however this is where I'm not quite sure. How does the Druid's tactics differ when riding an animal versus not? Is there a thread that explains this? Like my animal and I still get seperate actions even though I'm riding him? Ie; he can move to attack, which leaves me a free move action every round? Or is my move action the same as the animals?

Also can we both attack the same round? He gets his bit or claw, I get my quarterstaff attack, etc... And when we're attacked, does the creature basically choose to attack either me or my mount?

I know these are pretty basic questions, but the thought of riding my mount seems pretty cool, though I'd like to know the benefits versus negatives. I'm sure there are feats that help to make this a better option as well.

Ok last thing. I know there are some Dinosaurs in FRCS and at least one god that is considered master of them. I was thinking of trying to talk my DM into letting me be a dinosaur specialist with my companions/nature's allies. Is this a viable request? Also which dinosaurs can work as mounts at lower levels. Fleshraker is a medium creature so I think I could theoretically ride it. I doubt however I could ride a swinddlespitter.

If I go aasimar I could still do the dinosaur thing but just have no mount, probably using a swindlespitter at level 1 and upgrading to the fleshripper at level 4. One last thing about the fleshraker. It says you can have them as a companion but treat them as if they were Druid - 3 on the chart. What exactly does that mean?

Sorry for all the questions but after making some mistakes on my last guy I want this one to be setup correctly. Also I do NOT wish to break the game, however I want my druid to be fairly optimized and I won't really pull out that power unless we're in dire straits. Part of me wants to show the others just how powerful a druid can be since they're so fixated on their fighters/barbs/rangers. I tried to get some cool things going with my Rogue but DM kept shutting me down as if I was going to be overpowered. I'd like him to at least see that the Rogue was the least of his worries.

Greenish

2011-04-30, 03:56 PM

samster712

2011-04-30, 03:57 PM

So last night my character died.. I had enough exp to make level 3 but during our rest we got ambushed and the party had no resources to heal everyone in time. Long story short, it was a 5 person party all level 2 and my Rogue and the Cleric bit it.

So now we've rolled up new stats and will be starting new characters next game. After leveling, the party consists of a level 3 fighter/barb, a level 3 wizard(trans spec) and a level 3 ranger(archery). The cleric has decided to make a Dwarf barbarian and I've decided to make a druid. Basically the cleric was frustrated because of all the hit points our half orc fighter/barb has and "thinks" his cleric was weak. To show them their folly I will be playing a Druid to show them just who is truly weak(these guys have no clue how strong clerics and druids can be and think fighters are awesome). Whether or not I'm the only healer or not, I won't be playing my Druid like that. I don't have enough healing to keep us all going so hopefully the DM will somehow grant us some alternate healing like a magic wand or something. Actually we have "something"(a healing staff of some sort) but haven't managed to identify it yet.

Ok so here are specifics. DM is a stickler for rolling stats, and this will be a primarily core game although it is in the FRCS and he has allowed things outside the core books so long as he approves it. No one else bothers taking the time to look, so it's usually only me that searches this stuff out. Keep in mind I cannot change my rolls or go point buy. My rolls are what they are. Period. We're also starting out at level 1 even though the others guys have just hit level 3. There's no arguing, that's his rule. Also no flaws/traits. As I said, he is strict.

17
15
14
11
9
6

So obviously 6 is going into CHA, the 9 going to INT. 17 to WIS, 15 to CON then the 14/11 is going str/dex or dex/str depending on what race I choose. Which brings me to my next choice...

I have to run it by my DM first, but my plan is to go lesser aasimar. It will give me a +2 wis and +2cha, darkvision and some energy resistance built in. If I'm allowed to go this route my stats will probably go:

14 str
11 dex
17 con
9 int
17 wis(+2)
8 cha(+2)

Not sure what to take as my level 1 feat, but I'd hate to waste it on augment summoning. However I was thinking about making his Deity Malar so that at level 3 I can get the augment summoning for free and not spend an extra feat like usual to get it. About Malar... he is a Chaotic Evil god so with the alignment/deity rules I can still pick CN for an alignment and worship him correct?

If the aasimar doesn't get the green light, I'm considering either Human or strongheart halfling. If I go halfing my stats will end up:

12 str
13 dex
15 con
9 int
17 wis
6 cha

Not the greatest but plenty for a Druid. I'd consider taking the 1st halfling substitution level, but not the 5th. I'd also consider a riding dog, however this is where I'm not quite sure. How does the Druid's tactics differ when riding an animal versus not? Is there a thread that explains this? Like my animal and I still get seperate actions even though I'm riding him? Ie; he can move to attack, which leaves me a free move action every round? Or is my move action the same as the animals?

Also can we both attack the same round? He gets his bit or claw, I get my quarterstaff attack, etc... And when we're attacked, does the creature basically choose to attack either me or my mount?

I know these are pretty basic questions, but the thought of riding my mount seems pretty cool, though I'd like to know the benefits versus negatives. I'm sure there are feats that help to make this a better option as well.

Ok last thing. I know there are some Dinosaurs in FRCS and at least one god that is considered master of them. I was thinking of trying to talk my DM into letting me be a dinosaur specialist with my companions/nature's allies. Is this a viable request? Also which dinosaurs can work as mounts at lower levels. Fleshripper is a medium creature so I think I could theoretically ride it. I doubt however I could ride a swinddlespitter.

If I go aasimar I could still do the dinosaur thing but just have no mount, probably using a swindlespitter at level 1 and upgrading to the fleshripper at level 4. One last thing about the fleshripper. It says you can have them as a companion but treat them as if they were Druid - 3 on the chart. What exactly does that mean?

Sorry for all the questions but after making some mistakes on my last guy I want this one to be setup correctly. Also I do NOT wish to break the game, however I want my druid to be fairly optimized and I won't really pull out that power unless we're in dire straits. Part of me wants to show the others just how powerful a druid can be since they're so fixated on their fighters/barbs/rangers. I tried to get some cool things going with my Rogue but DM kept shutting me down as if I was going to be overpowered. I'd like him to at least see that the Rogue was the least of his worries.

Well from my previous druid thread I've learned a couple of things. If you are gonna be using wild shape (which I don't know why you wouldn't be) I would suggest switching your strength and charisma scores seeing as you don't really need strength or dexterity if you are wild shape (you take on your animal's strength and dexterity)...I am a gnome druid and I use a wolf which i can ride everywhere cause i taught it the ride skill. Keep in mind that your DM controls your companion, not you. I would suggest dismounting and having your companion attack while you sit back and shoot arrows, (and summon awesome SNAs)

Also if you decide to go the route i just suggested and use the lesser assimar, get zen archery at level 1 because it allows you to use your wisdom score for archery. When you reach level 5/6 get natural spell and then you won't need to worry about str/dex and be a boss wildshaper who can do spells and SNA...those are my two cents...don't know much about the dinosaur thing and also gotta check with your dm to make sure dinosaurs exist in your game or if they are extinct cause you can't ride a pile of bones (unless you are a necromancer that is)

Gavinfoxx

2011-04-30, 04:04 PM

vageta31

2011-04-30, 04:05 PM

This might be off-topic, but trying to show people up isn't the best attitude to take to the table. Even if you're right.

But hey, dragonwrought jungle kobolds make great druids, and look good riding a fleshripper.

On fleshrippers, the EDL (effective druid level) decides what sort of critter you can have, as well as how many of the bonuses listed on the animal companion table they get.

I know that probably came out wrong... I'm not really trying to show them up and stick it in their face. I simply want to play my guy and let them see what the Druid is capable of. My DM is not super experienced but it was frustrating to have him turn down everything I asked for with my Rogue as if it was going to overpower the level 3 Barb/Fighter with 40 hps(This guy rolled a 12 on his first barb level and a 9 on his fighter), or the wizard/cleric. I'm hoping that by just playing my druid normally it will awaken people to not prejudge how powerful a class is just because they can hit hard at lower levels.

Also I think dragonwrought kobold may be a bit too much, I'm pushing it with the aasimar already I think hehe.

Gavinfoxx

2011-04-30, 04:09 PM

Have you read the Druid Handbook and looked at the core options within it?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0

How about that poison handbook?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0

How about the handle animal handbook?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10396.0

vageta31

2011-04-30, 04:10 PM

So you are starting at level 3?

Get a couple of attack mules, and use your starting wealth by level to get a wand of cure light wounds.

If you want to do melee, Two hand a Shillelaghed Oak club or quarterstaff with a decent strength and medium size.

I'd consider, in a core game, going for a summoning spec. Augment Summoning is decent. Summon lots of Hippogriffs at this level! Also Entangle is great, as is Produce Flame.

And its FleshRAKER not FleshRIPPER.

Start with Riding Dog AC, upgrade to Fleshraker or Crocodile or Dire Bat at level four.

Nope he's making us start out at level 1 which is why I'm not messing around with a rogue anymore. I fixed the raker, my bad :) Being a bit of melee was exactly what I was thinking with the shillelaghed quarterstaff, though that'd work better as a medium character as you said. I don't want to blow two feats on summoning if I can manage it, so I'd prefer to worship Malar and get it in one feat at level 3. Also from what I understand initiate of nature is a really good feat to take at level 1.

And he is super stingy with his loot. We are far behind WBL trust me. I think our party that was ready to hit 3 had maybe 300 gold in total between ALL of us(and 100 of it was useless zhentarium gold that no merchant wanted to take). My rogue did find a masterwork longsword but ONLY because we fought our way through a situation where we were supposed to surrender. Otherwise I wouldn't have gotten that uber longsword :P

vageta31

2011-04-30, 04:14 PM

Well from my previous druid thread I've learned a couple of things. If you are gonna be using wild shape (which I don't know why you wouldn't be) I would suggest switching your strength and charisma scores seeing as you don't really need strength or dexterity if you are wild shape (you take on your animal's strength and dexterity)...I am a gnome druid and I use a wolf which i can ride everywhere cause i taught it the ride skill. Keep in mind that your DM controls your companion, not you. I would suggest dismounting and having your companion attack while you sit back and shoot arrows, (and summon awesome SNAs)

Also if you decide to go the route i just suggested and use the lesser assimar, get zen archery at level 1 because it allows you to use your wisdom score for archery. When you reach level 5/6 get natural spell and then you won't need to worry about str/dex and be a boss wildshaper who can do spells and SNA...those are my two cents...don't know much about the dinosaur thing and also gotta check with your dm to make sure dinosaurs exist in your game or if they are extinct cause you can't ride a pile of bones (unless you are a necromancer that is)

Is it true that the DM completely controls your mount? He has a level 1 NPC paladin that seems to control her mount quite well in combat and he has no special feats to connect with his animal better than a Druid can with his companion. What would be the point of a mount that just kind of sits there and does whatever the DM decides is proper?

Greenish

2011-04-30, 04:18 PM

Is it true that the DM completely controls your mount? He has a level 1 NPC paladin that seems to control her mount quite well in combat and he has no special feats to connect with his animal better than a Druid can with his companion. What would be the point of a mount that just kind of sits there and does whatever the DM decides is proper?Controlling a wartrained mount in combat is a DC 10 ride check and a free action.

Also, druid can use handle animal as a free action as it comes to his animal companion.

vageta31

2011-04-30, 04:30 PM

Ahh so basically anytime I want my animal companion to do something I have to roll a check. Meaning at low levels it might fail a bit, but at higher levels it's fairly easy to succeed?

So if I'm riding a war dog and I want it to charge, I'd have to roll a DC 10 ride check. If it succeeds then it charges? Or do I have to roll a ride AND handle animal check?

I'm trying to find some guides on mounted combat as we speak, but it sounds like I could have my mount charge on a successful check. Then that puts me in melee range when it comes to my turn and I could get a full round action or a free move action every round.

However... if you're riding a mount and it IS your animal companion.. how does initiative work? If you're not riding it I'd assume it gets it's own. However if you're mounted it wouldn't quite work so well if your animal and you're order is out of synch. Does this mean you synch up when mounted based off on your initiative, and you both get your action as part of the turn? Like my mount charges and gets his attack, then immediately I get my turn after?

Greenish

2011-04-30, 04:47 PM

Ahh so basically anytime I want my animal companion to do something I have to roll a check. Meaning at low levels it might fail a bit, but at higher levels it's fairly easy to succeed?You get +4 to your Handle Animal checks with your AC, and to make it perform a trick it knows is only DC 10. You shouldn't be failing much even at lower levels.

So if I'm riding a war dog and I want it to charge, I'd have to roll a DC 10 ride check. If it succeeds then it charges? Or do I have to roll a ride AND handle animal check?To direct your war-trained mount in combat is DC 10 ride check (no need for handle animal). To guide it with knees (so that you can use both of your hands for something else) is DC 5. Both are free actions by default.

I'm trying to find some guides on mounted combat as we speak, but it sounds like I could have my mount charge on a successful check. Then that puts me in melee range when it comes to my turn and I could get a full round action or a free move action every round.Yes, your mount uses it's own actions, but note that you can't do full melee attack if your mount moves more than 5'.

However... if you're riding a mount and it IS your animal companion.. how does initiative work?You both act at your initiative, and at the same time. For example, you can ride next to someone (mount's move action), make an attack (your standard action) and the have the mount move away (your mount's second move action) and you'd still have your own move action left to use.

vageta31

2011-04-30, 04:58 PM

You both act at your initiative, and at the same time. For example, you can ride next to someone (mount's move action), make an attack (your standard action) and the have the mount move away (your mount's second move action) and you'd still have your own move action left to use.

Ok it's starting to make sense now... So in that above example is that using the ride by attack feat? Or you're saying if the mount doesn't attack he gets a second move action? How does that work with AoO's?

Also is it possible simply to say charge in melee with mount, and both you and mount get an attack? I so does the +2 to hit work only on mount or both of you? Then if you stay in melee range you both can get an extra standard attack during next round?

It's a bit confusing but I'm starting to wrap my head around it. A halfing on a war trained riding dog with barding is starting to sound pretty sweet actually.

Greenish

2011-04-30, 05:03 PM

So in that above example is that using the ride by attack feat? Or you're saying if the mount doesn't attack he gets a second move action?No, that example wasn't a charge, just normal movement.

How does that work with AoO's?You provoke one, and your mount provokes one. Either or both of you could try to tumble, I guess.

Also is it possible simply to say charge in melee with mount, and both you and mount get an attack?Yes, you can do that. You need to make the DC 5 ride check to be able to attack.

I so does the +2 to hit work only on mount or both of you?Both of you take -2 to AC and +2 to hit from the charge.

Then if you stay in melee range you both can get an extra standard attack during next round?You don't get "extra" standard actions, why would you?

It's a bit confusing but I'm starting to wrap my head around it. A halfing on a war trained riding dog with barding is starting to sound pretty sweet actually.The mounted combat rules are a mess, frankly.

Gavinfoxx

2011-04-30, 05:10 PM

Ok it's starting to make sense now... So in that above example is that using the ride by attack feat? Or you're saying if the mount doesn't attack he gets a second move action? How does that work with AoO's?

Also is it possible simply to say charge in melee with mount, and both you and mount get an attack? I so does the +2 to hit work only on mount or both of you? Then if you stay in melee range you both can get an extra standard attack during next round?

It's a bit confusing but I'm starting to wrap my head around it. A halfing on a war trained riding dog with barding is starting to sound pretty sweet actually.

I dont think that example uses the Ride-by attack feat, since you aren't actually charging at all. I am fairly sure it provokes AoO's... but I'm not an expert on this...

vageta31

2011-04-30, 05:27 PM

You don't get "extra" standard actions, why would you?

Bad wording on my part. Should have read "normal" standard action. What I was getting at is it seems there are two ways to play an AC. You send it into battle to act on it's own while you do your own thing, basically playing 2 characters and each getting it's own actions(ie;attack). You could even flank a creature with your AC I'd assume.

Other option is to use as a mount. To either gain really good mobility in combat and pursue a special line of feats to focus that ability. Or you could use him similar to option 1 except that you are simply on his back instead of separated. Meaning you charge into battle, that round you AND your mount each get an attack. Next round you're still mounted and in melee range so you both get normal attacks. Since you're based on the same initiative, you attack then your mount attacks as seperate actions (though theoretically at the same time).

One more advantage that comes to mind is that any buffs spells that you cast on yourself automatically target your mount since you're in the same space. So it's like casting mass "xxx" but just for you and mount. So next thing that comes up is... do the Bite of the xxx work for your animal as well? :)

Greenish

2011-04-30, 05:33 PM

Bad wording on my part. Should have read "normal" standard action. What I was getting at is it seems there are two ways to play an AC. You send it into battle to act on it's own while you do your own thing, basically playing 2 characters and each getting it's own actions(ie;attack). You could even flank a creature with your AC I'd assume.Yes, that works. There's technically no trick to cause your AC to flank, but it's mentioned in the MM as the standard tactic of, say, wolves, so few DMs are likely to prevent it.

Other option is to use as a mount. To either gain really good mobility in combat and pursue a special line of feats to focus that ability. Or you could use him similar to option 1 except that you are simply on his back instead of separated. Meaning you charge into battle, that round you AND your mount each get an attack. Next round you're still mounted and in melee range so you both get normal attacks. Since you're based on the same initiative, you attack then your mount attacks as seperate actions (though theoretically at the same time).Yeah, that's how it goes. There are feats and effects to count as flanking as long as you and your ally both threaten the same opponent, so you or your mount could take those to flank while occupying the same squares. :smallwink:

One more advantage that comes to mind is that any buffs spells that you cast on yourself automatically target your mount since you're in the same space.No, they don't automatically target everyone in your square, but you can share your buffs with your AC via Share Spells.

So next thing that comes up is... do the Bite of the xxx work for your animal as well? :)Anything you can cast on yourself can also affect your animal companion via Share Spells.

vageta31

2011-04-30, 05:49 PM

No, they don't automatically target everyone in your square, but you can share your buffs with your AC via Share Spells.
Anything you can cast on yourself can also affect your animal companion via Share Spells.

Share spells, couldn't think of the name of it. So like... wow, Bite of the xxx on your mount and you sounds pretty nasty. Or I could simply cast it on the mount even if I stay back out of battle.

Now to figure out how to get the "war trained" riding dog. I understand there's a template you can add to creatures that costs money per HD. At level one does my riding dog count as 1HD because I'm level one, or 2HD since it actually has 2 HD? Let's hope I have enough gold at level 1 to get this. Quarterstaff is free... Leather is cheap, so I may be able to scrape up enough to do this.

Thanks everyone for answering all the questions. The mounted rules are a bit complex at first. Plus the idea of a halfing riding a dog just sounds friggin sweet hehe.

Greenish

2011-04-30, 05:55 PM

Now to figure out how to get the "war trained" riding dog.See "Train for purpose" section of Handle Animal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm).

I understand there's a template you can add to creatures that costs money per HD. At level one does my riding dog count as 1HD because I'm level one, or 2HD since it actually has 2 HD?Warbeasts (template from MMII) cost 50gp per HD (on low HD critters), and the template adds a HD on them, so your doggie would be 150gp for 3 HD. However, you get your dog companion for free, and you can add the warbeast template to it with a DC 20 Handle Animal Check. If you do it in your backstory, you can say you took 20, since the time is not an issue. :smalltongue:

vageta31

2011-04-30, 06:09 PM

See "Train for purpose" section of Handle Animal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm).
Warbeasts (template from MMII) cost 50gp per HD (on low HD critters), and the template adds a HD on them, so your doggie would be 150gp for 3 HD. However, you get your dog companion for free, and you can add the warbeast template to it with a DC 20 Handle Animal Check. If you do it in your backstory, you can say you took 20, since the time is not an issue. :smalltongue:

I'd love to see my DM's face when I email this to him hehe. Though true it is quite legit and will makeup for having to start back at level 1 while everyone else is level 3 already.

Eldariel

2011-04-30, 06:19 PM

vageta31

2011-04-30, 06:29 PM

You could take higher Int; I personally like skills on Druid, since the list is rather awesome with strong stat synergies. Strength is hardly necessary, for example.

I wrote up a Quickstart Druid here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10779873&postcount=5) (not all is applicable but most of it works out; consider being Middle-Aged, btw - 18 Wis is swell and you have 15 to place in the Con to get 14 out of it anyways; Aging effects are listed on page 109 in PHB and Druid starting age is near the Middle-Age anyways so it's not farfetched)

I thought about it, and if starting at higher levels I'd probably consider it. But we're starting at 1 and I have to survive early on and as we've seen the DM holds no punches. Also I believe if I read correctly the Halfling druid substitution levels give me 6+int points at creation which would help make up for a lower int. What I don't know is if that counts for all levels 1 up to 4(5 is next sub level) or only on the first.

Warbeasts (template from MMII) cost 50gp per HD (on low HD critters), and the template adds a HD on them, so your doggie would be 150gp for 3 HD. However, you get your dog companion for free, and you can add the warbeast template to it with a DC 20 Handle Animal Check. If you do it in your backstory, you can say you took 20, since the time is not an issue.

I'm having a little trouble figuring this one out. There is "war trained" mentioned in the MM 1 that says basically that the riding dog gains a trip attack like a wolf. Then in MM 2 it says in the "warbeast" template that any "war" creature from MM 1 supposedly has this template already. However the riding dog one was just a small paragraph whereas the horse is actually listed as a full creature in MM 1 and has that bonus HD listed.

So it seems I only do one or another. I take the riding dog that's trained for war and get the trip attack basically for free. Or I take my riding dog and give it the "warbeast" template to add the extra HD and combat riding feature to give me the bonus to ride checks, but lose out on the trip.

In case the DM decides I cannot "train" my warbeast riding dog for free by taking 20, I'm guessing I can take my regular 2HD riding dog and essentially pay 50gp to have him wartrained. I get the 2HD dog free so I'm not buying it trained outright, I'd essentially just be paying 50gp for having him trained with the template. That's all assuming the DM doesn't let me get away with the "take 20" to just train him for free, which btw seems perfectly legit as is.

Greenish

2011-04-30, 06:32 PM

Eldariel

2011-04-30, 06:35 PM

I thought about it, and if starting at higher levels I'd probably consider it. But we're starting at 1 and I have to survive early on and as we've seen the DM holds no punches. Also I believe if I read correctly the Halfling druid substitution levels give me 6+int points at creation which would help make up for a lower int. What I don't know is if that counts for all levels 1 up to 4(5 is next sub level) or only on the first.

Strength won't help you survive early on. Dex will, though (Initiative, AC). But you can just place an odd number there and be good as ever. Higher save DCs on your low level control spells will probably do more for your survivability than anything.

EDIT: Also, with the Halfling subs you get Hide + Move Silently in class; good for survivability and all the more reason to invest in Dex and Int over Str. I'm fairly confident Wis>Con>Dex>Int>Str>Cha with Middle-Age is gonna give you the best chances of survival (Spot and Listen are survival-inducing skills too).

vageta31

2011-04-30, 07:21 PM

It seems there are even more benefits to the Halfling druid substitution levels. They get enhanced link which gives a circumstance bonus of +4 to ride checks when mounted on your animal companion, which is better than the +2 from the warbeast template. I'd assume they aren't stacking :P

Strength won't help you survive early on. Dex will, though (Initiative, AC). But you can just place an odd number there and be good as ever. Higher save DCs on your low level control spells will probably do more for your survivability than anything.

EDIT: Also, with the Halfling subs you get Hide + Move Silently in class; good for survivability and all the more reason to invest in Dex and Int over Str. I'm fairly confident Wis>Con>Dex>Int>Str>Cha with Middle-Age is gonna give you the best chances of survival (Spot and Listen are survival-inducing skills too).

I agree about the strength versus dex. I just hate my guy being kind of weak, though I'll only have a quarterstaff, armor and what little else I may need so it shouldn't be a problem. I don't want to do the aging change, even though by the numbers it may work out better. I'll just take +1 wis at level 4 and go from there.

I still need to do some reading so that I'm prepared to handle the riding checks and all that for next time we play. I'm guessing the DM will soon tire of all the rolling and start allowing some basic freebies heh.

Eldariel

2011-04-30, 07:41 PM

I agree about the strength versus dex. I just hate my guy being kind of weak, though I'll only have a quarterstaff, armor and what little else I may need so it shouldn't be a problem. I don't want to do the aging change, even though by the numbers it may work out better. I'll just take +1 wis at level 4 and go from there.

Heh. You don't hate being dumb or repulsive as much as being weak? 'cause I find any negative stat to be...well, negative but it can, just as well, be an interesting character trait.

vageta31

2011-04-30, 07:58 PM

Well the high wisdom versus lower intelligence wouldn't necessarily mean "dumb". I would call it more of a school of hard knocks type of knowledge, than book smart. My Rogue had 15 int and was very intelligent in game, but he had more use of that intelligence. And he was young and foolish which went well with his low wisdom.

When I say weak I wasn't thinking of roleplaying a weaker character, I meant the nightmare of having a DM that pays attention to those things and trying to stay under the load requirements. I don't care about the +attack bonus, I don't want to run around always worrying if I'm going to be over my weight limit. It will be a LONG time before we see a haversack I assure you.

Bhaakon

2011-04-30, 08:11 PM

Heh. You don't hate being dumb or repulsive as much as being weak? 'cause I find any negative stat to be...well, negative but it can, just as well, be an interesting character trait.

From a role playing perspective, it makes alot more sense for a druid who purposely alienates himself from society and lives in the wilds to be uneducated, dirty, anti-social, and generally inept at dealing with people than for him/her to be as strong as small child.

Eldariel

2011-04-30, 08:24 PM

From a role playing perspective, it makes alot more sense for a druid who purposely alienates himself from society and lives in the wilds to be uneducated, dirty, anti-social, and generally inept at dealing with people than for him/her to be as strong as small child.

Charisma and Intelligence don't really measure any of those things though (or rather, those and then some). Uneducated? That's lack of ranks in Knowledges. Anti-social and generally inept at dealing with people? That's lack of ranks in humanoid-related social skills (Diplo, Intimidate, Bluff, Sense Motive most likely).

Having low Cha would mean you're just as repulsive to animals as humans; Wild Empathy and Handle Animal are both based off Cha just as much as the Human Interaction Skills. Having low Int would also mean he knows little to nothing of the nature and its creatures; Knowledge: Nature is just as much Int-based as every other Knowledge.

I don't know about you but to me a muscular Druid feels way more out of place than a likable (if aloft) or a smart (if uncivilized) Druid. Unless the circle watches over the wilds by wrestling with bears rather than weaving their magic, anyways.

When I say weak I wasn't thinking of roleplaying a weaker character, I meant the nightmare of having a DM that pays attention to those things and trying to stay under the load requirements. I don't care about the +attack bonus, I don't want to run around always worrying if I'm going to be over my weight limit. It will be a LONG time before we see a haversack I assure you.

Eh, with the weight drop on small sizes and the lack of heavy equipment a Druid needs, you generally actually have it rather easy as a small-sized Druid in this regard. Unless you, of course, carry around everything. Between Survival, light armors and little weaponry, there's generally little you need to carry around. It's just the clothes, some ranged weapon, Quarterstaff and that's about it. All the ratios, ropes and that crap others carry; meh, Druid really has little need for all that (though I suppose you always need rope)

Greenish

2011-04-30, 09:30 PM

Donkey is cheap. Buy one to carry your stuff around.

Bhaakon

2011-04-30, 09:45 PM

Charisma and Intelligence don't really measure any of those things though (or rather, those and then some). Uneducated? That's lack of ranks in Knowledges. Anti-social and generally inept at dealing with people? That's lack of ranks in humanoid-related social skills (Diplo, Intimidate, Bluff, Sense Motive most likely).

Like you say, they do and they don't. But the skill ranking is a bit deceptive for a low level player (which the PC in question and 95% of the population is) because stat bonuses/penalties often match or exceed skill ranks in any given category. The less skill points the character has earned, the more directly the base ability scores represent their actual skill levels.

I don't know about you but to me a muscular Druid feels way more out of place than a likable (if aloft) or a smart (if uncivilized) Druid. Unless the circle watches over the wilds by wrestling with bears rather than weaving their magic, anyways.

I wasn't suggesting he be muscle bound, but dropping a 6 in strength (or really any physical stat) seems a bit unlikely for a character who is assumed to have spent so much time in the wilds. Not against the rules or anything, but I'd definitely require some extraordinary back-story to justify it if I were the DM.

vageta31

2011-04-30, 09:53 PM

Donkey is cheap. Buy one to carry your stuff around.

It's funny you mention that... Our half-orc fighter rolled a high number of gold and showed up with a donkey on the first day. Even our DM got a great laugh out of that one. I wanted to go to the store and find a Donkey from Shrek to use as his miniature hehe.

vageta31

2011-04-30, 10:15 PM

Ok so I've been doing a lot of reading about all this and think I've come up with a good setup. I actually had misread the stat rolls I had written down. I had a 12 and a 13 not an 11 and a 14. Also because this is in Faerun there are a lot of little benefits I can take advantage of. The DM loves FRCS so he can't say anything about my taking advantage! :P

Strongheart Halfing of Miliekka, Halfing Substitution Level 1

Str:10(-2 halfing)
Dex: 15 (+2 halfing)
Con: 15
Int: 9
Wis: 17
Cha: 6

That gives me 10 hit points at level 1 (more than my stupid Rogue had!).
Miliekka allows her druids to use weapons and armor of a Ranger. (metal)
Western Heartland Region allows me a masterwork chain shirt for free as starting equipment.
Riding Dog with Warbeast template. (Trained as part of background)
My armor was free so I can afford to buy my dog Barding.
Greenbound(FRCS) or Ashbound feat at level 1.

So with that said it still leaves a few questions.

1. Milikka allows her druids to use ranger weapons and armor without penalties, but it is unclear if that means they get the actual proficiencies to use them. I was thinking about taking a longspear for range fighting using my dog in front but that depends on how the wording is interpreted.

2. I'm am unclear about the riding dog trained for war + warbeast template. The riding dog that is trained for war only has 2HD so obviously doesn't have the template. What it gains is the extra str and trip ability. So does that mean I can take that dog and train it with the warbeast template, thus giving him the extra HD and other goodies along WITH the trip and str?

3. In order to take the Greenbound or Ashbound feats I'll have to write it in my backstory. And since I was the only one that give him a fleshed out backstory compared to the others this won't be an issue. I just have to try and find a believable way to explain why my halfling druid would come about the ability to use this special summoning from "ancient elven knowledge". Also it doesn't say that you can't, however it may be a tough sell to ask for both. Greenbound is very strong, however it does seem to have a negative as you lose the ability to buff your summons with animal spells at some point.

4. I can see only one negative for taking the halfing druid substitution level and that's the loss of spontaneous SNA. However the benefits are great. More skill points and skills, on top of a nice bonus for using your AC as a mount. +4 ride check, AC shares woodland stride with you, etc...

If I can't manage to talk him into one of the summoning feats I could always do the focus conjuration/augment summoning combo but it's costly and won't do me much good at these levels with the short time the summons last. At level 3 I'd probably take extend spell or something, then of course at level 6 I'd take natural spell.

Anything else I may be missing?

Gavinfoxx

2011-04-30, 11:08 PM

Donkey is cheap. Buy one to carry your stuff around.

MULES are cheap. 8 GP! They can carry and make GREAT COMBATANTS. Better than a fighter at first level, sometimes!

Eldariel

2011-05-01, 04:07 AM

It's "Mielikki" :smallwink:

1. Milikka allows her druids to use ranger weapons and armor without penalties, but it is unclear if that means they get the actual proficiencies to use them. I was thinking about taking a longspear for range fighting using my dog in front but that depends on how the wording is interpreted.

You don't gain any extra proficiencies for being a Druid of Mielikki; it just means you can wear metal armor without it intervening with your Druid-powers.

2. I'm am unclear about the riding dog trained for war + warbeast template. The riding dog that is trained for war only has 2HD so obviously doesn't have the template. What it gains is the extra str and trip ability. So does that mean I can take that dog and train it with the warbeast template, thus giving him the extra HD and other goodies along WITH the trip and str?

Warbeast-template specifies that animals trained for war are already considered to have the template. You could go with a War-Trained Wolf instead. Gets you the Trip while being a normally untrained chassis. And works just as well as a mount for a Halfling.

3. In order to take the Greenbound or Ashbound feats I'll have to write it in my backstory. And since I was the only one that give him a fleshed out backstory compared to the others this won't be an issue. I just have to try and find a believable way to explain why my halfling druid would come about the ability to use this special summoning from "ancient elven knowledge". Also it doesn't say that you can't, however it may be a tough sell to ask for both. Greenbound is very strong, however it does seem to have a negative as you lose the ability to buff your summons with animal spells at some point.

Losing animal buffs is relatively minor in the end; you get spellbots as summons, so you don't need them Animal Growthed that bad. The big thing is, you gain bigger returns from Rashemi Elemental Summoning around level...9 (when you'd get Animal Growth too) but that's pretty far in the future. For now, Greenbound is excellent.

And honestly, Druids always come from a Druids' circle; perhaps your circle passes down the mastery of the Greenbound Summoning. Ashbound is also a nice call for the duration increase for the early game. You'll probably want to consider Dire Bat for your level 4 mount; being able to ride it would make you very safe and with summons, you'd contribute wonderfully.

4. I can see only one negative for taking the halfing druid substitution level and that's the loss of spontaneous SNA. However the benefits are great. More skill points and skills, on top of a nice bonus for using your AC as a mount. +4 ride check, AC shares woodland stride with you, etc...

That's a rather major loss but you'll manage; you'll just have to learn to prepare an SNA or two daily. You also do gain the highest level SNAs still in the distant, distant future. And getting Freedom of Movement spontaneously is really nice. Otherwise, the list is a downgrade but for a dedicated summoner you can prepare them anyways.

If I can't manage to talk him into one of the summoning feats I could always do the focus conjuration/augment summoning combo but it's costly and won't do me much good at these levels with the short time the summons last. At level 3 I'd probably take extend spell or something, then of course at level 6 I'd take natural spell.

Well, by RAW Natural Bond [Complete Adventurer] can be used to offset the level penalty higher level animal companions get. That's always worth considering. Also, Rapid Spell [Complete Divine] is great if you use summons more; later on you can get a Ring of the Beast which raises your summons by 1 level to your maximum, allowing you to apply Rapid Spell to your summons for "free" which means you get Standard Action summons (normally a 1 round casting time).

Oh, and don't bother with the level 5 substitution level. Undersized Wildshape is a pretty painful nerf to the ability, and meh.

vageta31

2011-05-01, 04:18 AM

It's "Mielikki" :smallwink:

You don't gain any extra proficiencies for being a Druid of Mielikki; it just means you can wear metal armor without it intervening with your Druid-powers.

Gah, I knew it didn't look right :)

Warbeast-template specifies that animals trained for war are already considered to have the template. You could go with a War-Trained Wolf instead. Gets you the Trip while being a normally untrained chassis. And works just as well as a mount for a Halfling.

So then I should just theoretically take a war trained wolf and he'd get the 3HD? I'm just not sure how to present it to the DM if he looks it up on the PHB and sees 2HD. Since it's my companion it's free, I guess I just explain in my backstory that it's been trained for war. Oh and also does the extra HD for the warbeast template count as a normal 3HD as far as feats are concerned? Ie; would it get the level 3 bonus feat, or not.

That's a rather major loss but you'll manage; you'll just have to learn to prepare an SNA or two daily. You also do gain the highest level SNAs still in the distant, distant future. And getting Freedom of Movement spontaneously is really nice. Otherwise, the list is a downgrade but for a dedicated summoner you can prepare them anyways.

Would you say it's not a good trade off overall? I wanted the bonus skills that you get with the mount to make it even easier and the extra skill points don't hurt.

Well, by RAW Natural Bond [Complete Adventurer] can be used to offset the level penalty higher level animal companions get. That's always worth considering. Also, Rapid Spell [Complete Divine] is great if you use summons more; later on you can get a Ring of the Beast which raises your summons by 1 level to your maximum, allowing you to apply Rapid Spell to your summons for "free" which means you get Standard Action summons (normally a 1 round casting time).

I was looking up Natural Bond today trying to understand that part. It looks though like the earliest I could even use it would be on the special level 4 animal companions that have the negative druid level modifiers.

Oh, and don't bother with the level 5 substitution level. Undersized Wildshape is a pretty painful nerf to the ability, and meh.

Yes I knew about that one. Why would anyone in their right mind take that.

Eldariel

2011-05-01, 04:33 AM

So then I should just theoretically take a war trained wolf and he'd get the 3HD? I'm just not sure how to present it to the DM if he looks it up on the PHB and sees 2HD. Since it's my companion it's free, I guess I just explain in my backstory that it's been trained for war. Oh and also does the extra HD for the warbeast template count as a normal 3HD as far as feats are concerned? Ie; would it get the level 3 bonus feat, or not.

Yes, the extra HD is an extra HD. Since it puts the Wolf at 3 HD, the wolf gets a feat. And how you explain it; show him the entry of Warbeast from MMII. That's about all you need. Don't forget you can Handle Animal other creatures too (though unfortunately, with your Cha you can't reliably do it with anything but your AC for a while). Druid isn't a Druid without a bunch of friends in the nature.

Would you say it's not a good trade off overall? I wanted the bonus skills that you get with the mount to make it even easier and the extra skill points don't hurt.

It just places a bit more weight on you to prepare the right spells. Since you can get Entangle cast by the Greenbound animals, that's real easy early on. I'd definitely want the bonus skills. That's why I'd be leery of under 10 Int on Druid anyways; you really want:
- Concentration
- Knowledge: Nature
- Handle Animal (though you can stop at a point where you get +6 if the points are needed elsewhere; that'd be enough to teach your Animal Companion on take 10)

Those are pretty darn necessary. Then there's:
- Spot
- Listen (I suppose you can focus on one or the other; generally Spot)
- Hide
- Move Silently
- Ride

That's just basic, great, useful skills (we didn't even cover Balance/Tumble; combat skills you really want ranks in - or Diplomacy, which happens to be a class skill, or Sense Motive CC or so). You also get stuff like Survival but your base ranks and bonuses generally handle that stuff. So, to max all those skills (Hide and Move Silently only on substitution levels or cross-class), you'd need 14 Int. You have 9 Int.

So I'd definitely take the substitution level just because. Oh, and then there's the whole Spellcraft that's really, really key against other casters but one we didn't touch with a 10-foot stick yet.

I was looking up Natural Bond today trying to understand that part. It looks though like the earliest I could even use it would be on the special level 4 animal companions that have the negative druid level modifiers.

Yup. No use before level 4. At that point, e.g. Dire Bat or Fleshraker [MM3] or Leopard or so works really well, and benefits of the buffs (though they can be a tad OP).

Yes I knew about that one. Why would anyone in their right mind take that.

For the extra use *shrug* Also, small forms early have their uses. Still, it is generally rather weak.

EDIT: Oh, and middle-age would be so perfect. Just look at it:
9 Str (not relevant loss; you don't care about the modifiers and fortunately carrying capacity accounts for odd numbers too)
14 Dex (no loss whatsoever; you'll never increase it with your level-up points anyways so it's 100% the same)
14 Con (same bonus all game as with Young age)
10 Int (extra skill point each level including 4x level 1!)
18 Wis (leading to 22-24 on level 8 as opposed to 21-23; and 34 on high levels as opposed to 33)
7 Cha (no change, unfortunately)

Vuann

2011-05-01, 04:33 PM

oops wrong thead.

vageta31

2011-05-01, 04:34 PM

EDIT: Oh, and middle-age would be so perfect. Just look at it:
9 Str (not relevant loss; you don't care about the modifiers and fortunately carrying capacity accounts for odd numbers too)
14 Dex (no loss whatsoever; you'll never increase it with your level-up points anyways so it's 100% the same)
14 Con (same bonus all game as with Young age)
10 Int (extra skill point each level including 4x level 1!)
18 Wis (leading to 22-24 on level 8 as opposed to 21-23; and 34 on high levels as opposed to 33)
7 Cha (no change, unfortunately)

I supposed your right, I guess it's just a mental block having strength that low :) I will suggest it to the DM, that Int point will definitely help me keep up my skills and the loss of strength will be of no concern once I get wild shape.

One more thing since you're so helpful :P What would you think about a Lesser Aasimar druid? I probably wouldn't focus on riding my mount unless a Warhorse is a decent attack animal(haven't looked it up). In fact I would consider making him a dinosaur/reptile specialist if my DM approved and would take them as companions. Swindlespitter as level 1, Fleshraker at level 4. Then I take the natural bond feat to negate the -3 druid levels that the Fleshraker has at level 4 which would make him a beast. Combine that with greenwood summoning.. I think the DM would regret his choice hehe.

At any rate, with the Aasimar I would get +2 wis, +2 cha so my stats would look like:

Str 12
Dex 13
Con 17
Int 9
Wis 15(+2)= 17
Cha 6(+2) = 8

Then if I choose to start middle aged it would become:

Str 11
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 9

Giving me 18 wis, +3 con bonus, +1 dex, no penalty to str, no penalty to int and a slightly better Cha. With an item in a few levels I could boost my Cha as well. Just more rounded stats overall

Only thing is I lose the whole concept of riding my mount and would concentrate more on summoning and relying on my animal companion to fight. I guess at level 4 once I were able to get a Fleshraker it simply wouldn't matter anymore. And once I was able to wild shape into the Fleshraker along with my partner in crime, things could get.. ugly.

Eldariel

2011-05-01, 06:36 PM

I supposed your right, I guess it's just a mental block having strength that low :) I will suggest it to the DM, that Int point will definitely help me keep up my skills and the loss of strength will be of no concern once I get wild shape.

One more thing since you're so helpful :P What would you think about a Lesser Aasimar druid? I probably wouldn't focus on riding my mount unless a Warhorse is a decent attack animal(haven't looked it up). In fact I would consider making him a dinosaur/reptile specialist if my DM approved and would take them as companions. Swindlespitter as level 1, Fleshraker at level 4. Then I take the natural bond feat to negate the -3 druid levels that the Fleshraker has at level 4 which would make him a beast. Combine that with greenwood summoning.. I think the DM would regret his choice hehe.

At any rate, with the Aasimar I would get +2 wis, +2 cha so my stats would look like:

Str 12
Dex 13
Con 17
Int 9
Wis 15(+2)= 17
Cha 6(+2) = 8

Then if I choose to start middle aged it would become:

Str 11
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 9

Giving me 18 wis, +3 con bonus, +1 dex, no penalty to str, no penalty to int and a slightly better Cha. With an item in a few levels I could boost my Cha as well. Just more rounded stats overall

Only thing is I lose the whole concept of riding my mount and would concentrate more on summoning and relying on my animal companion to fight. I guess at level 4 once I were able to get a Fleshraker it simply wouldn't matter anymore. And once I was able to wild shape into the Fleshraker along with my partner in crime, things could get.. ugly.

If you go Wis-boost race, the #1 reason is to get 20 Wis on level 1; more save DCs and a bonus level 1 spell (and it scales; basically on most levels you'll have a bonus spell of your highest level thanks to the extra +2). So you should trade Con and Wis.

That said, I think Halfling is better at least thinking skills here; Aasimar has better raw stats but everything else goes to Halfling. Though Riding is taxing on skillpoints... But Strongheart Halfling gets the bonus feat, which is really awesome outside Core.

vageta31

2011-05-01, 09:28 PM

If you go Wis-boost race, the #1 reason is to get 20 Wis on level 1; more save DCs and a bonus level 1 spell (and it scales; basically on most levels you'll have a bonus spell of your highest level thanks to the extra +2). So you should trade Con and Wis.

That said, I think Halfling is better at least thinking skills here; Aasimar has better raw stats but everything else goes to Halfling. Though Riding is taxing on skillpoints... But Strongheart Halfling gets the bonus feat, which is really awesome outside Core.

I see what you mean. I was thinking the extra con for hps, but that 20 would give me an extra level 1 spell which is pretty huge at that level.

I sent off my concept to my DM, we shall see what he thinks but I really like the idea of the Halfling with Riding Dog. Is it worth it to take any of the combat riding feats? With a high enough skill in ride it looks like you could negate a good amount of damage your mount might take in battle, though if you don't ride a mount at higher levels I guess it'd be a waste.

With that said, is it possible to ride a fleshraker? It mentions in MM 3 that it might be possible with a special mount. The halfling substitution level says that you get no penalty for riding bareback in general. I'm wondering if the possibility is there as that'd be quite an awesome mount to cruise around on :) Also regarding fleshraker, it seems you could theoretically cast aspect of the wolf on it and you could bring it into town for shorter durations.

Gavinfoxx

2011-05-01, 11:25 PM

Mielikki lets you use armor RANGERS can wear without penalty.

So Mithril Breastplate is the heaviest (being light metal armor), OR a normal Chain Shirt.

Eldariel

2011-05-02, 07:59 AM

I sent off my concept to my DM, we shall see what he thinks but I really like the idea of the Halfling with Riding Dog. Is it worth it to take any of the combat riding feats? With a high enough skill in ride it looks like you could negate a good amount of damage your mount might take in battle, though if you don't ride a mount at higher levels I guess it'd be a waste.

Not worth it; you'll mostly be casting off the Mount-back while the Mounted Combat-feats improve your physical attacks off there. With Bardings (in PHB equipment section at "Armor for unusual creatures"), you can get higher AC than your typical Ride-check results without heavy investments; especially since War-trained animals are proficient in armor (Animal-type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType)).

Really, after you get Wildshape you probably won't want to ride much anymore; you can still do it but that basically gives up you as a melee type, something you excel in as a Wildshaping Druid.

With that said, is it possible to ride a fleshraker? It mentions in MM 3 that it might be possible with a special mount. The halfling substitution level says that you get no penalty for riding bareback in general. I'm wondering if the possibility is there as that'd be quite an awesome mount to cruise around on :) Also regarding fleshraker, it seems you could theoretically cast aspect of the wolf on it and you could bring it into town for shorter durations.

Halflings in Eberron ride Dinosaurs. So there's actually canon support for that. You should be well able to do it.